The "X Plan" refers to a "no-haggle" pre-arranged price for Ford Motor vehicles that is generally very close to invoice price. It's available to employees of companies who are direct suppliers to Ford. Over the years, the definition of "suppliers to Ford" has been liberalized to include many large companies that aren't obvious suppliers at all.
I am supposed to be getting it sometime in February. I heard the same thing about stopping production for the holidays from my salesman. Hopefully it has started back up!
Does anyone have advice on 2008 Taurus-X paint sealant ($599), undercoating ($499), fabric protectant ($399)? Total: $1913 marked down to: $1300. My gut feeling is that it's a rip-off. I've read a lot of posts and am considering taking only the undercoating if I can get it for $250 (with warranty papers). I live 10 miles from the beach, reasonable Virginia climate - thanks for any opinions/advice.
My Taurus X with Sync was ordered in August and supposed to arrive in early December, but then a "retail" hold occurred in October/November/December. I've heard rumors Ford was producing fleet T-X's rather than putting the factory on furlough. And after all, sales in December were relatively good, so they had to be making something. :confuse:
I wasn't expecting a build until January, but my Taurus X surprisingly went to build in late December and I now have a VIN. It's arriving at the dealer in San Jose, CA around the first week of February. It seems from your post that a lot of other orders are getting similar treatment.
To add to what freealfas has already said.. even if you wanted any of these relatively useless procedures performed, they are available at far lower cost elsewhere.
If you are getting a T-X with fabric seats, and you have young children, you might think about some kind of fabric protection. But you could do it yourself for a fraction of what this dealer wants to charge you.
True that there is a rust warranty, but if you're keeping a car for a long-time AND you live in an area prone to higher levels of salt than normal, then getting some type of rust proofing may be beneficial.
Also true that getting it done at a dealer will probably cost more than elsewhere (but what dealer repair doesn't cost more?) but on the other hand, if the dealer is really trying to sell vehicles, they may reduce the cost to the point where it's equal to an aftermarket undercoating job...and it's more convenient.
Personally, I didn't buy the paint UV treatment or underdcoating because I live in Ohio, but if I were in a high salt or high sun area, then I might have at least considered it, shopped around and if the price was comparable might have purchased it. Even the fabric protector would have been useful to me with our two kids and lots of spills, although we've been able to clean them all out, plus I don't know if I want to spray a plastic coating on my cloth seats just to make them more resistant to stains.
So be wary, but don't totally dismiss any of these treatments as totally useless. That's old school thinking that all dealers are just out to rip you off.
I didn't hear about a retail hold. If you ordered yours in August but are only going to be getting it in Feb, then maybe I will have longer to wait!
Personally, I don't really mind if it takes an extra month or whatever, since it might be nice to get the new vehicle after the worst of winter is behind us! Also, I don't have a trade-in so I don't have a vehicle depreciating while I am waiting.
bobw3 - you and I have fought battles on the same side around here for a bit of time now but I'm sticking to my old school thinking EVERY TIME, the dealers at the end of the day are just trying to seperate you from your money with this stuff.
Until 1999, I lived on the central coast of central california for 20yrs with no shortage of wind, rain, sea breeze, etc., etc.(now I'm in chicago with salt/winter) with absolutely no problems with underbody rust and having owned pre 2000 bmw's, saabs, alfas, isuzu trooper, ford, vw with NONE of them receiving a lick of dealer ripping you off extra "treatments". PROVISION - as long as your paint is in tact and no bare metal is exposed you will have no rust problems & remember the same holds true with undercoating because it's not like it can't get scraped off in areas as well or damaged.
I'd advise you and everyone to keep your money during the dealers last ditch effort to simply capitalize on what is a largely useless and hugely PROFITABLE extra that ONLY BENEFITS the dealer.
scotchgard your fabric for $8-10 and wax wash your car regularly by hand and you will be well served.
I agree, that's why I said IF a person has a history of rust problems in their area...a big IF!! Plus, some folks might be too old or too lazy to wax their car, so paying a few hundred up front might be a good investment to them. Same with the fabric treatment.
Think of them like any other car option. Some folks pay for the $2000 DVD or Nav system, while others opt for the after-market Circuit City version that's a lot cheaper.
c'mon bobbw, rust protection has come a long way from days gone by, the coatings, finishes are all tested and are designed to last. I understand where you are going with your point but you are never going to sway me that any of those options are worth any portion of what a dealer charges.
and those prices quoted by the OP are going to buy a lot of yearly wax jobs I'm thinking...
seems we're headed towards agreeing to disagree on them having any merit...
I've got a 2005 Freestyle SEL with 70K miles on it. Paid 28K for it on Jan. 2, 2005 and have had no problems at all (other than the gremlin that makes the panic horn go off for no apparent reason--kind of embarrassing and annoying, but no problems can be found). Neehoo, thought it was time to have a look at an Escape Hybrid because I drive a lot of miles. Drove it--it's okay. So, with the model that costs 32K (MSRP), no rear back-up sensor, two power outlets (but it does have the 110V), no keyless entry, a lot harder to fold the rear seats down--you have to take the headrests off. No sound system controls on the steering wheel, no traction control. And no haggling or dealing. They acted like I was stealing from them to get them down to 29K. Pfffft. Gonna pay off my Freestyle (10 more payments--woo hoo!) and go from there. It still looks new. The trade-in value was $9,000. Yeah, whatever.
STILL love my Freebie. I still don't see many of them on the streets (or the Taurus X) around here, but I was visiting New Jersey, and there are tons of them there. I'm so sad that they took the CVT out of the Taurus as that's one of my favorite features of the car--big car, hauls a lot of stuff and people, and I'm still getting 21-22 mpg around town, and 25-26 out on the freeway (going over the speed limit
I'm pretty much in the same situation as you. My '05 SE is 3 years old next month (one more payment!) and has 60,000 miles. I paid $23,500 for it on the X-Plan. It has the rear ac/heating in the ceiling/floor which is great, plus the duel front climate control which is also great. I had a couple of sensors replaced under warranty, and I replaced the rear brake pads this past summer, but that's it. Like you I get in the low 20s MPG around town and mid to upper 20's on the highway, depending on if I'm going the speed limit or over.
I'm too looking around, but can't find anything better than what I already have. I also agree that the CVT is a great transmission. Very smooth and no shift points. I still look around. The Mazda 5 looks good, but I can't see getting $10K for my FS then putting another $10-15K on a new Mazda5. Plus the MPG isn't much better and there is no rear HVAC system.
HI bobw3. Glad to see you're still around and your Freestyle, too. I'm only just now beginning to realize how much cool stuff came with my trim level Freestyle (SEL with the comfort zone package) and how it's not on other cars I'm looking at for the same price. And I'm not willing to go without those things. No trac control on the Escape??? I was out in that awful storm that SFO last week. I felt something odd with my car and I looked down at the message center and it said "trac control active." And I was darn glad of it, too! I know it's not ESC, but hey, it's better than nothing! The wind was buffeting my car pretty good and I wanted to turn the radio up to listen the traffic update. With the Escape, I would have had to take my hand off the wheel to turn up the radio. And the $2,600 nav system on the Escape won't let you input or change anything if the car is moving. So, I'll keep my Freebie and I'm buying a portable nav system for $300.
Post your best deal in terms of below invoice price:
07 Freestyle $4900 below invoice. (Any of these left on the market?)
08 T-X $1000 below invoice. (This number is very low, better deals are being made with the CX-9 and VC)
With all the rebates, at a minimum current deals on 08s should be at least equal to the rebate below the invoice price. (ie... $2000 rebate = $2000 below invoice)
After talking with my sales rep I decided to build my own 2008 T-X. I was quoted a price of $250 over invoice (less incentive of $1500). Is this a good deal? Thanks in advance. :confuse:
It depends on how many extra fees you pay as part of the deal.
Anything not covered as part of the local or state Gov't taxes or Lic fee could be an extra fee (Doc Fee, Ad Fee, the list is very long).
Since the dealership does not have to carry this car on their inventory, I would ask for $2K below invoice with no fees. The Sales Rep will not be happy, but the dealership still makes good money on that deal!
As I understand it, you get the rebate (incentive) of the month when the car arrives. It may be higher next month.
Wow! 2K below invoice plus no fees is what I will ask for then. Thanks so much. When we talked about pricing he came up with $250 over invoice, and he did not mention anything about fees, but then again we had not built the car yet. I wanted to read some posts on price negotiation first. I don't want to haggle, it's too stressful. Not knowing anything about the art of a car sale I thought $250 over invoice was a good deal. I've much to learn I guess.
Since the dealership does not have to carry this car on their inventory, I would ask for $2K below invoice with no fees. The Sales Rep will not be happy, but the dealership still makes good money on that deal!
When you say to offer $2K below invoice, are you including the factory rebate in that figure? If you are, then yes, that is a fair deal. If you are suggesting that the poster offer $2K below invoice and then subtract the rebate on top of that figure, then I think you'll probably get that offer rejected.
Even though dealers don't have to carry the ordered vehicle on their inventory, the vehicle still counts against their allocation. My guess is that with a low-ball offer like that, they are going to save their allocation for another, better deal.
In my opinion, invoice price minus whatever incentive is in effect upon delivery is a fair deal. So the original poster is only $250 away from that deal.
Sorry for the confusion, yes including the rebate. $750 lower than his current offer and no fees (the fees will kill the deal if you let them).
If they will not give you the deal you want, then walk away. After leaving the dealership, send an email outlining your offer to the closes Ford Dealerships in your area.
Factory Order:
08 TX (with the options you want) at $2K below invoice and no extra fees.
To do this, you need to fully understand the invoice price and guard against the extra fees.
Thanks seloo. My dealer printed out the 2008 pricelist for me to make my choices. It has three columns: dealer price, dealer invoice with holdback, and suggested retail. Do I work from the the dealer price or the holdback price (ie Limited FWD dealer price is $26,323/ holdback $27,586) when negotiating?
Making money is always a good thing for the dealership. As you know, the dealership will get the full hold back (4.3% for an Opel Dealer), plus any factory to dealer money, monthly sales incentive, and most likely a volume kickback.
First compare what the dealer gave you to Edmunds or other sources to insure you have the correct invoice information.
Use the invoice with holdback number.
Your goal on this deal is invoice minus $2K (including you $1.5K rebate) so you are trying to get $500 of the dealer's holdback (or other kickback $).
When doing the numbers be sure the Destination Charge is not added twice.
As for fees:
Do not pay for any Dealer Add-ons.
Do not pay a Prep Fee (the factory pays the dealer for that already)
Watch out for Ad, Training, or Assessment Fees
Watch out for the infamous Document Fee
Bottom line: If the fee is not part of the TTL fees paid to the local and state Gov't, then question the fee.
You should fully understand all the numbers on your sales contract. Before you sign, it may be a good idea to take it home, so you can look it over.
Extended Warranty, if you want one, shop the net first, so you have an idea of what one cost. The Ford ESP is a good program, but if you do not know what you are doing, they will make 75-100% markup on this product. Unless they offer you a deal of a lifetime on this product, it may be best to leave it out of the current deal. You can always purchase one later.
So for a 28,000 car the holdback is $840, so if you sell it for $500 less than invoice they get $340 on the deal.
plus any factory to dealer money, monthly sales incentive, and most likely a volume kickback.
So how much exactly? These amounts are spread over all the cars they sell, so it's hard to identify a specifc amount on a specific sale. That why selling a car for $500 below invoice is not "good money" for a dealer...at least not necessarily all the time.
I'm not saying that there are not specific reasons they'll do it (end of the month, just one more vehicle to sell to meet a monthly sales incentive, etc) but you make it sound as though every person walking into a dealer should expect to pay $500 below invoice for their cars. If they did, then the dealers would be out of business pretty quick.
I'm all for good deals, but a little realistic perspective is a good thing too.
On the other hand, the TauruxX isn't a hot selling vehicle, so you will find some good deals and you're right in that it's good to question the varies fees and costs, but on the other hand, my time is worth at least $20/hour, so if I'm spending hours, days or even weeks of my time going to different dealers, calling, emailing, etc, it better be to save a couple of thousand dollars versus a couple of hundred. That's another factor that needs to be incorporated into any savings but for everyone it's a little different.
Post your best deal in terms of below invoice price:
07 Freestyle $4900 below invoice. (Any of these left on the market?)
08 T-X $1000 below invoice. (This number is very low, better deals are being made with the CX-9 and VC)
With all the rebates, at a minimum current deals on 08s should be at least equal to the rebate below the invoice price. (ie... $2000 rebate = $2000 below invoice)
Thanks for all of the info, it's been very educational. I'll let you know what I get for a deal in the end as I plan to order by this weekend. My strategy is just as you outlined above. I have a better equiped poker-face to work with now
You're right in that it's good to watch out for fees, but I still contend that your numerous posts on the Veracruz, CX-9, TX and Outlook forums where people are posting their "good deals" have little meaning on what someone will actually pay when they decide to buy their car.
Just because somewhere in the country a couple of people might have paid $1000 below invoice for a CX-9, for example, is meaningless information. You don't know where the information came from, all the aspects of the deal, trade-in, finance, time/date of purchase, locations, dealer inventory at the time, etc. But your posts imply that $1000 below invoice is the standard you should expect to pay and if you pay more you're getting ripped off...at least that's implied in my opinion.
The repeated, copy/paste posts on multiple forums reminds me of late night advertising get rich scams where you see folks claiming to make $10,000/month working a few hours per week. Of course the fine-print disclaimer is that these are very unique stories, just as some of the prices being posted may be very unique situations with questionable accuracy.
Plus the whole idea of fees being bad can be misleading too. A dealer may wave the $500 prep fee or other fees, so the buyer thinks he's getting a good deal, so he's happy to hand over his trade-in for thousands less and pay a higher interest rate.
Bottom line is that the main emphasis should not be on fees, but on the bottom line, including trade, finance and total price of the car. Then you take that information to another dealer and see if they'll give you a lower total price. Whether or not dealer A charges you a $600 prep fee while dealer B doesn't charge any prep fee is meaningless. All that matters is the bottom line price. That's what you should emphasize in your copy/pasted posts across several forums.
Sorry if the post sounds terse, but I'm just hoping to save folks some money on their bottom line...not just reduce/eliminat a few fees or just some other small part of the overall bottom line price.
Your approach offers very little help to anyone, but the car dealers.
This information provides a reference point for perspective car buyers. I agree it is not perfect, but I believe the majority of postings are from honest people that are trying to help the next guy/gal on a car deal.
The good news is that it is working! (People are becoming educated and are saving money). With all the information available on car prices, dealers are using fees to confuse consumers and pad profits, that is why I am pushing this issue (but again you already know that).
As more people post their stories (as you can see, I do attempt to QC the information before posting it) buyers have a better understanding of the market and prices on deals have fallen significantly.
This is just a small attempt to level the playing field through the use of information technology.
No one is being forced to read this board and no one has to agree with the information being posted.
I wish all the best of luck on their next car deal!
Your approach offers very little help to anyone, but the car dealers.
My approach is to reduce the overall cost paid and not just focus "how much below invoice" one dealer is offering or the different types of fees. I'm not sure how this infomation about going for the lowest total costs helps the dealers?
Your information is a good starting point, but in your post requests for the best deals per invoice price, if you're going to go that far than why not request the entire deal, including financing rates, trade-in, any accessories purchased, extended warranty purchased, etc... Yes you do tell people to watch out for those add-ons, but rather than just posting a "how much below incoice price" try posting more details on the deal.
Maybe examples help:
Person A posts that they bought their TX for $2000 below invoice, plus another $1000 rebate, so you'll say great and tell everyone that the new benchmark is $3000 below invoice including rebates...
However what is not posted, or what's put in the fine print is as follows: Person A also traded in a vehicle and based on the price the dealer gave him, the dealer just gained $2000 fromPerson A for the trade in. Person A bought the extended warranty through the dealer, so the dealer gained another $500. Person A financed through the dealer and is giving them 7% interest over the next 60 months. Person A bought a 3 year maintenance, also giving money to the dealers.
With this information, we can see that Person A's deal of $3000 below invoice isn't necessarily a good deal at all. But the dealer was able to offer the price of $3000 below invoice including rebates because the dealer was making money elsewhere.
That's why I'm saying that it can be misleading just to post the price of the car and then try to pretend that it's the price everyone should expect to pay. When people read you or anyones posts on their "great deal below invoice price" everyone reading it should understand that there could be a lot going into the price that's not being identified in the post.
And again, people should simply try to get the best deal from one dealer (total bottom line cost) and then go to another dealer to see if they can give you a better deal. The better deal may in fact be the one where the actual car price may be higher, but then the other dealer is giving the person a better trade-in or better finance rate.
I'm sure some people will say to never finance at the dealer and never give them a trade-in and that's good advice, but considering many people do that, it's good to give them information about negotiating the total price.
The deals with trades usually do not make the leaders board (because the dealer makes the money on the trade). I still believe that the invoice price is the best reference point for these deals.
It only takes about 15-20 mins of reading articles on the internet to gain a good understanding of the car buying process.
Most people buying cars like the ones discussed on this board are not your third tier consumers. Many are tier one and some are tier two consumers. Occasionally, we get a guy who pays close to MSRP, (you know what they say, there is one born every minute).
Let's clear the board, so the good deals can be posted.
I still believe that the invoice price is the best reference point for these deals.
Well, when you can walk out of a dealer and the only thing you paid was the actual price of the car and nothing else, then I'll agree that comparing the car price in relation to invoice is worth something. But until then....
And BTW I paid MSRP for my Honda Fit, and considering that people were (and have been almost 2 years later) lining up to get them and some paying over MSRP, paying MSRP can be a very good deal, so when someone makes comments suggesting that people paying close to MSRP are less than savy buyers, tells me that person really doesn't know much about supply/demand...a very basic economic principle. It's a bad idea to use or suggest "always" in a statement.
Is this the Honda board? I thought we were talking about deals on Fords. Yes, we all know that your paid MSRP for your Honda and that you are very proud of that fact. Do you want some special recognition? Maybe your assistance is needed on the Honda boards, I am sure the Honda dealerships would appreciate it.
I'm just trying to point out that there are a lot more factors that go into a total purchase price beyond, "...give me you best deals under invoice price..." is pretty meaningless unless you know the rest of the costs as well as the market where you're buying the car. (eg buying a TX in Detroit will be different than in Dallas...or do I need to explain that one too!).
Anway, go back to your copy/paste close-to-spam posts.
Since your original post was to me, I'll take a stab at answering your question.
$250 over invoice for an ordered Taurus-X is not unreasonable at all. But since I believe you said it was your dealer's opening offer, you can probably do a bit better than that by countering with an offer of your own. Offer them invoice.. and be prepared to settle for maybe $100 over that. That's fair to everyone. After all, the dealer and his employee's have to eat too.
I believe the rebate you receive will be whatever is in effect at time of delivery. I wouldn't worry about that being any less than the current $1,500. It might even be larger in a couple of months. That's the chance you take when you order for future delivery.
At delivery, the dealer will likely try to sell you all kinds of optional add-ons.. like rust-proofing, paint sealant, alarm systems, etc. etc. etc. Just say NO to all. You don't need it, and frequently it only duplicates what is already there from the manufacturer.
For gosh sake.. get Sync with your ordered vehicle. It's well worth it.
One last piece of advice. I would ignore all posts from sel*o. In my opinion.. his/her approach to the car purchasing process is grossly misinformed at best, and completely misleading at worst.
The deals with trades usually do not make the leaders board (because the dealer makes the money on the trade).
Personally, I think this whole concept of the "leader board" is useless at best and misleading at worst. Why not just let people read all of the deals posted and let them draw their own conclusions? It's not like there are an overwhelming number of deals being posted!
Misguided - to provide with incorrect information.
Misleading - deceptive; tending to mislead.
Useless - of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile
Are you telling me that saving money on a new car by purchasing it below the invoice price and avoiding the extra fees/Add-Ons is deceptive and incorrect information? Additionally, providing this information in a simple to read format is useless? This is certainly not my intent!
Philosophically, I think we all want the same thing, please tell me if this is not true.
The best price we can get on a new car (No Add-ons, Extra Fees)
Keep the trade (if any) as a separate part of the car deal.
Keep financing as a separate part of the car deal.
I think it's fine to have a discussion on prices, to break down the total prices paid into the various components, and to set benchmarks for all the parts ot the transaction. I think it educational. What I do object to is the tone what underlies many of the discussions that if you don't pay rock bottom prices or if you pay additional fees you got a raw deal or that you have to go around pitting one dealer against another . There are other parts of the car buying process that are just as important (and maybe more important) than price. Those of us that have bought many cars in our lifetime know this and are looking for a satisfying buying experience that includes a good price but is broader than that. My satisfaction comes from doing my homework as to what cars are available, which ones meet my needs, what options I want ,what is a fair price and where can get the price I'm willing to pay from a dealer I can trust. What somebody else pays in inmaterial to me.
Thanks for your feedback, your comments are appreciated.
Based on your comments, our differences seem to be more generational in nature. You seem to value the total car buying experience and I am focused primary on price.
Let me assure you that I am never rude to any dealership when negotiating these deals. I clearly outline my expectations to a number of dealers and ask them to contact me if they are interested in pursuing further negotiations. Some pass, but the majority are happy to compete for my business. It is never personal, just business.
$250 over invoice for an ordered Taurus-X is not unreasonable at all.
And I believe it's close to the X-plan price. At least it was for the Freestyle.
One *can* beat X-plan price, but not always. Especially if you're very picky about which specific vehicle you want.
To me, it's not worth a grand on a 30k vehicle to have to get a color I don't want, or not get some feature that I want. Others are free to disagree, of course.
Thanks for the information. All of the comments made in this forum have been very enlightening and I feel better equipped and more confident in making this deal. Thanks to all and to Edmunds for this venue.
Misguided - to provide with incorrect information.
Misleading - deceptive; tending to mislead.
Useless - of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile
I did use the words "misleading" and "useless". However, please re-read what I said within the context of my post. I didn't say that YOU were misleading or useless. I don't know you personally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are not intending to be misleading or useless.
I said that the concept of a "leaderboard" is useless at best and misleading at worst. I don't know you personally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are not intending to be misleading or useless.
Please don't interpret my statements as a personal attack upon you or your character, because they are not. They are an expression of my opinion on this "leaderboard" format.
Are you telling me that saving money on a new car by purchasing it below the invoice price and avoiding the extra fees/Add-Ons is deceptive and incorrect information? Additionally, providing this information in a simple to read format is useless? This is certainly not my intent!
I think bobw pretty much summed up why I feel this way in his posts, which is why I didn't elaborate. However, I will do you the courtesy of giving you a complete expression of why I feel the way I do.
Posting the "best price" that somebody has achieved does not tell the whole story. The person might have gotten a good deal on the purchase but a bad deal on the trade-in. The person might have gotten a good deal because they financed with the dealer. The person might have gotten a good deal because the vehicle was an undesirable color. The person might have gotten a good deal because they have bought six cars with the same dealer previously, so they got a loyality "discount". The person might have gotten a good deal because they were hit with fees on the back end of the deal. That is why I believe that the "leaderboard" is useless at best - because it doesn't take into account the deal in its entirety.
The reason why I say that it is misleading at worst is because it gives readers the impression that if they aren't getting that deal, then they might believe that they are getting screwed by the dealership. In truth, the deal that the reader might be getting, while is worse than the "leaderboard" deal, might still be a good deal when all the factors are taken into account. As a result, the reader might turn down a good deal in hopes to obtain that mythical "leaderboard" deal.
The other reason why I don't like the whole "leaderboard" concept is that I believe that it might discourage people from posting their realistic deals. Let's say that I made a good deal on a vehicle, but when I come to this board, I read that the "leaderboard" deal is $500 less than my good deal. At this point, I might not want to post my deal because, when compared to the "leaderboard" deal doesn't seem as good, so why would I expose myself to public criticism because I didn't get as good a deal as somebody else.
I am not saying that you or anyone else on here would actually criticize somebody's deal. I am saying that a potential poster might be scared off from posting for fear of criticism. It is an ego thing. Whenever you buy a car, you always want everyone to think that you got a great deal. Nobody wants to feel like they got taken advantage of by the dealership. By posting the "leaderboard", this might make some people feel like they got an inadequete deal, thus the community loses out on their data point, so to speak.
Again, this is just my opinion on the subject. Since this is an open forum, I cannot enforce my opinion, nor should I. If you want to continue posting your "leaderboard", feel free to continue. However, I am just offering my opinion on the subject.
hey seloo for the record, I didn't pay anyone to make those post and those posts are not me logging in under a different name.
Also for the record you do give useful information in your posts, but think it the "leader board" that some folks don't like, since there is so much unknown information behind the prices on the leaderboard to make the numbers posted on your leaderboard next to useless.
Plus some folks who really got a good deal may look at your leaderboard and perhaps feel like they got screwed, unless it's your purpose to make folks who paid less than what's on your leaderboard feel bad?
Anyway sello, good info on many posts you make to individual buyers, but why not just drop the leader board posts, as they're not very useful for much.
Comments
when will you be getting your ordered TX? I had heard they stopped production until after the holidays, is that correct?
All I can say is I absolutely love mine!
I am supposed to be getting it sometime in February. I heard the same thing about stopping production for the holidays from my salesman. Hopefully it has started back up!
I wasn't expecting a build until January, but my Taurus X surprisingly went to build in late December and I now have a VIN. It's arriving at the dealer in San Jose, CA around the first week of February. It seems from your post that a lot of other orders are getting similar treatment.
You ARE kidding Right... trust your gut... RIP OFF, your car comes with a rust through warranty(find it and read it)
Any of those "treatments" are completely useless. your car comes with what it needs to protect itself from the elements.
If you are getting a T-X with fabric seats, and you have young children, you might think about some kind of fabric protection. But you could do it yourself for a fraction of what this dealer wants to charge you.
Also true that getting it done at a dealer will probably cost more than elsewhere (but what dealer repair doesn't cost more?) but on the other hand, if the dealer is really trying to sell vehicles, they may reduce the cost to the point where it's equal to an aftermarket undercoating job...and it's more convenient.
Personally, I didn't buy the paint UV treatment or underdcoating because I live in Ohio, but if I were in a high salt or high sun area, then I might have at least considered it, shopped around and if the price was comparable might have purchased it. Even the fabric protector would have been useful to me with our two kids and lots of spills, although we've been able to clean them all out, plus I don't know if I want to spray a plastic coating on my cloth seats just to make them more resistant to stains.
So be wary, but don't totally dismiss any of these treatments as totally useless. That's old school thinking that all dealers are just out to rip you off.
Personally, I don't really mind if it takes an extra month or whatever, since it might be nice to get the new vehicle after the worst of winter is behind us! Also, I don't have a trade-in so I don't have a vehicle depreciating while I am waiting.
Until 1999, I lived on the central coast of central california for 20yrs with no shortage of wind, rain, sea breeze, etc., etc.(now I'm in chicago with salt/winter) with absolutely no problems with underbody rust and having owned pre 2000 bmw's, saabs, alfas, isuzu trooper, ford, vw with NONE of them receiving a lick of dealer ripping you off extra "treatments". PROVISION - as long as your paint is in tact and no bare metal is exposed you will have no rust problems & remember the same holds true with undercoating because it's not like it can't get scraped off in areas as well or damaged.
I'd advise you and everyone to keep your money during the dealers last ditch effort to simply capitalize on what is a largely useless and hugely PROFITABLE extra that ONLY BENEFITS the dealer.
scotchgard your fabric for $8-10 and wax wash your car regularly by hand and you will be well served.
Think of them like any other car option. Some folks pay for the $2000 DVD or Nav system, while others opt for the after-market Circuit City version that's a lot cheaper.
and those prices quoted by the OP are going to buy a lot of yearly wax jobs I'm thinking...
seems we're headed towards agreeing to disagree on them having any merit...
STILL love my Freebie. I still don't see many of them on the streets (or the Taurus X) around here, but I was visiting New Jersey, and there are tons of them there. I'm so sad that they took the CVT out of the Taurus as that's one of my favorite features of the car--big car, hauls a lot of stuff and people, and I'm still getting 21-22 mpg around town, and 25-26 out on the freeway (going over the speed limit
I'm too looking around, but can't find anything better than what I already have. I also agree that the CVT is a great transmission. Very smooth and no shift points. I still look around. The Mazda 5 looks good, but I can't see getting $10K for my FS then putting another $10-15K on a new Mazda5. Plus the MPG isn't much better and there is no rear HVAC system.
Post your best deal in terms of below invoice price:
07 Freestyle $4900 below invoice. (Any of these left on the market?)
08 T-X $1000 below invoice. (This number is very low, better deals are being made with the CX-9 and VC)
With all the rebates, at a minimum current deals on 08s should be at least equal to the rebate below the invoice price. (ie... $2000 rebate = $2000 below invoice)
Watch out for extra fees!
Good Luck.
After talking with my sales rep I decided to build my own 2008 T-X. I was quoted a price of $250 over invoice (less incentive of $1500). Is this a good deal? Thanks in advance. :confuse:
Anything not covered as part of the local or state Gov't taxes or Lic fee could be an extra fee (Doc Fee, Ad Fee, the list is very long).
Since the dealership does not have to carry this car on their inventory, I would ask for $2K below invoice with no fees. The Sales Rep will not be happy, but the dealership still makes good money on that deal!
As I understand it, you get the rebate (incentive) of the month when the car arrives. It may be higher next month.
When you say to offer $2K below invoice, are you including the factory rebate in that figure? If you are, then yes, that is a fair deal. If you are suggesting that the poster offer $2K below invoice and then subtract the rebate on top of that figure, then I think you'll probably get that offer rejected.
Even though dealers don't have to carry the ordered vehicle on their inventory, the vehicle still counts against their allocation. My guess is that with a low-ball offer like that, they are going to save their allocation for another, better deal.
In my opinion, invoice price minus whatever incentive is in effect upon delivery is a fair deal. So the original poster is only $250 away from that deal.
If they will not give you the deal you want, then walk away. After leaving the dealership, send an email outlining your offer to the closes Ford Dealerships in your area.
Factory Order:
08 TX (with the options you want) at $2K below invoice and no extra fees.
To do this, you need to fully understand the invoice price and guard against the extra fees.
Also tell them that you are ready to order today!
Work on your time line not the dealerships.
Good Luck!
What fees would be i be expecting to pay?
Thanks
How does the dealer make "good money" when selling a car for $500 below invoice?
I am very surprised you asked that question.
Making money is always a good thing for the dealership. As you know, the dealership will get the full hold back (4.3% for an Opel Dealer), plus any factory to dealer money, monthly sales incentive, and most likely a volume kickback.
You are killing me!
Use the invoice with holdback number.
Your goal on this deal is invoice minus $2K (including you $1.5K rebate) so you are trying to get $500 of the dealer's holdback (or other kickback $).
When doing the numbers be sure the Destination Charge is not added twice.
As for fees:
Do not pay for any Dealer Add-ons.
Do not pay a Prep Fee (the factory pays the dealer for that already)
Watch out for Ad, Training, or Assessment Fees
Watch out for the infamous Document Fee
Bottom line: If the fee is not part of the TTL fees paid to the local and state Gov't, then question the fee.
You should fully understand all the numbers on your sales contract. Before you sign, it may be a good idea to take it home, so you can look it over.
Extended Warranty, if you want one, shop the net first, so you have an idea of what one cost. The Ford ESP is a good program, but if you do not know what you are doing, they will make 75-100% markup on this product. Unless they offer you a deal of a lifetime on this product, it may be best to leave it out of the current deal. You can always purchase one later.
Good Luck!
3% for Ford
So for a 28,000 car the holdback is $840, so if you sell it for $500 less than invoice they get $340 on the deal.
plus any factory to dealer money, monthly sales incentive, and most likely a volume kickback.
So how much exactly? These amounts are spread over all the cars they sell, so it's hard to identify a specifc amount on a specific sale. That why selling a car for $500 below invoice is not "good money" for a dealer...at least not necessarily all the time.
I'm not saying that there are not specific reasons they'll do it (end of the month, just one more vehicle to sell to meet a monthly sales incentive, etc) but you make it sound as though every person walking into a dealer should expect to pay $500 below invoice for their cars. If they did, then the dealers would be out of business pretty quick.
I'm all for good deals, but a little realistic perspective is a good thing too.
On the other hand, the TauruxX isn't a hot selling vehicle, so you will find some good deals and you're right in that it's good to question the varies fees and costs, but on the other hand, my time is worth at least $20/hour, so if I'm spending hours, days or even weeks of my time going to different dealers, calling, emailing, etc, it better be to save a couple of thousand dollars versus a couple of hundred. That's another factor that needs to be incorporated into any savings but for everyone it's a little different.
But good luck Tom and keep your advise coming
$20 an hour, your time is cheap!
As you know, a good deal can be had in a few minutes if you know what you are doing.
I always (not really) enjoy hearing from you. If nothing else, I hope a few folks save some dollars on these car deals.
Take care!
Post your best deal in terms of below invoice price:
07 Freestyle $4900 below invoice. (Any of these left on the market?)
08 T-X $1000 below invoice. (This number is very low, better deals are being made with the CX-9 and VC)
With all the rebates, at a minimum current deals on 08s should be at least equal to the rebate below the invoice price. (ie... $2000 rebate = $2000 below invoice)
Watch out for extra fees!
Good Luck.
Thanks for all of the info, it's been very educational. I'll let you know what I get for a deal in the end as I plan to order by this weekend. My strategy is just as you outlined above. I have a better equiped poker-face to work with now
Just because somewhere in the country a couple of people might have paid $1000 below invoice for a CX-9, for example, is meaningless information. You don't know where the information came from, all the aspects of the deal, trade-in, finance, time/date of purchase, locations, dealer inventory at the time, etc. But your posts imply that $1000 below invoice is the standard you should expect to pay and if you pay more you're getting ripped off...at least that's implied in my opinion.
The repeated, copy/paste posts on multiple forums reminds me of late night advertising get rich scams where you see folks claiming to make $10,000/month working a few hours per week. Of course the fine-print disclaimer is that these are very unique stories, just as some of the prices being posted may be very unique situations with questionable accuracy.
Plus the whole idea of fees being bad can be misleading too. A dealer may wave the $500 prep fee or other fees, so the buyer thinks he's getting a good deal, so he's happy to hand over his trade-in for thousands less and pay a higher interest rate.
Bottom line is that the main emphasis should not be on fees, but on the bottom line, including trade, finance and total price of the car. Then you take that information to another dealer and see if they'll give you a lower total price. Whether or not dealer A charges you a $600 prep fee while dealer B doesn't charge any prep fee is meaningless. All that matters is the bottom line price. That's what you should emphasize in your copy/pasted posts across several forums.
Sorry if the post sounds terse, but I'm just hoping to save folks some money on their bottom line...not just reduce/eliminat a few fees or just some other small part of the overall bottom line price.
I understand your point, but I disagree!
Your approach offers very little help to anyone, but the car dealers.
This information provides a reference point for perspective car buyers. I agree it is not perfect, but I believe the majority of postings are from honest people that are trying to help the next guy/gal on a car deal.
The good news is that it is working! (People are becoming educated and are saving money). With all the information available on car prices, dealers are using fees to confuse consumers and pad profits, that is why I am pushing this issue (but again you already know that).
As more people post their stories (as you can see, I do attempt to QC the information before posting it) buyers have a better understanding of the market and prices on deals have fallen significantly.
This is just a small attempt to level the playing field through the use of information technology.
No one is being forced to read this board and no one has to agree with the information being posted.
I wish all the best of luck on their next car deal!
Keep posting those good deals.
My approach is to reduce the overall cost paid and not just focus "how much below invoice" one dealer is offering or the different types of fees. I'm not sure how this infomation about going for the lowest total costs helps the dealers?
Your information is a good starting point, but in your post requests for the best deals per invoice price, if you're going to go that far than why not request the entire deal, including financing rates, trade-in, any accessories purchased, extended warranty purchased, etc... Yes you do tell people to watch out for those add-ons, but rather than just posting a "how much below incoice price" try posting more details on the deal.
Maybe examples help:
Person A posts that they bought their TX for $2000 below invoice, plus another $1000 rebate, so you'll say great and tell everyone that the new benchmark is $3000 below invoice including rebates...
However what is not posted, or what's put in the fine print is as follows:
Person A also traded in a vehicle and based on the price the dealer gave him, the dealer just gained $2000 fromPerson A for the trade in.
Person A bought the extended warranty through the dealer, so the dealer gained another $500.
Person A financed through the dealer and is giving them 7% interest over the next 60 months.
Person A bought a 3 year maintenance, also giving money to the dealers.
With this information, we can see that Person A's deal of $3000 below invoice isn't necessarily a good deal at all. But the dealer was able to offer the price of $3000 below invoice including rebates because the dealer was making money elsewhere.
That's why I'm saying that it can be misleading just to post the price of the car and then try to pretend that it's the price everyone should expect to pay. When people read you or anyones posts on their "great deal below invoice price" everyone reading it should understand that there could be a lot going into the price that's not being identified in the post.
And again, people should simply try to get the best deal from one dealer (total bottom line cost) and then go to another dealer to see if they can give you a better deal. The better deal may in fact be the one where the actual car price may be higher, but then the other dealer is giving the person a better trade-in or better finance rate.
I'm sure some people will say to never finance at the dealer and never give them a trade-in and that's good advice, but considering many people do that, it's good to give them information about negotiating the total price.
I understand your thought process.
The deals with trades usually do not make the leaders board (because the dealer makes the money on the trade).
I still believe that the invoice price is the best reference point for these deals.
It only takes about 15-20 mins of reading articles on the internet to gain a good understanding of the car buying process.
Most people buying cars like the ones discussed on this board are not your third tier consumers. Many are tier one and some are tier two consumers. Occasionally, we get a guy who pays close to MSRP, (you know what they say, there is one born every minute).
Let's clear the board, so the good deals can be posted.
Take care.
Well, when you can walk out of a dealer and the only thing you paid was the actual price of the car and nothing else, then I'll agree that comparing the car price in relation to invoice is worth something. But until then....
And BTW I paid MSRP for my Honda Fit, and considering that people were (and have been almost 2 years later) lining up to get them and some paying over MSRP, paying MSRP can be a very good deal, so when someone makes comments suggesting that people paying close to MSRP are less than savy buyers, tells me that person really doesn't know much about supply/demand...a very basic economic principle. It's a bad idea to use or suggest "always" in a statement.
Is this the Honda board? I thought we were talking about deals on Fords. Yes, we all know that your paid MSRP for your Honda and that you are very proud of that fact. Do you want some special recognition? Maybe your assistance is needed on the Honda boards, I am sure the Honda dealerships would appreciate it.
Anway, go back to your copy/paste close-to-spam posts.
Since your original post was to me, I'll take a stab at answering your question.
$250 over invoice for an ordered Taurus-X is not unreasonable at all. But since I believe you said it was your dealer's opening offer, you can probably do a bit better than that by countering with an offer of your own. Offer them invoice.. and be prepared to settle for maybe $100 over that. That's fair to everyone. After all, the dealer and his employee's have to eat too.
I believe the rebate you receive will be whatever is in effect at time of delivery. I wouldn't worry about that being any less than the current $1,500. It might even be larger in a couple of months. That's the chance you take when you order for future delivery.
At delivery, the dealer will likely try to sell you all kinds of optional add-ons.. like rust-proofing, paint sealant, alarm systems, etc. etc. etc. Just say NO to all. You don't need it, and frequently it only duplicates what is already there from the manufacturer.
For gosh sake.. get Sync with your ordered vehicle. It's well worth it.
One last piece of advice. I would ignore all posts from sel*o. In my opinion.. his/her approach to the car purchasing process is grossly misinformed at best, and completely misleading at worst.
Personally, I think this whole concept of the "leader board" is useless at best and misleading at worst. Why not just let people read all of the deals posted and let them draw their own conclusions? It's not like there are an overwhelming number of deals being posted!
I know, we all have the same goal here. I am just jerking your chain.
No hard feelings.
Gentlemen these are harsh and hurtful words.
Misguided - to provide with incorrect information.
Misleading - deceptive; tending to mislead.
Useless - of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile
Are you telling me that saving money on a new car by purchasing it below the invoice price and avoiding the extra fees/Add-Ons is deceptive and incorrect information? Additionally, providing this information in a simple to read format is useless? This is certainly not my intent!
Philosophically, I think we all want the same thing, please tell me if this is not true.
The best price we can get on a new car (No Add-ons, Extra Fees)
Keep the trade (if any) as a separate part of the car deal.
Keep financing as a separate part of the car deal.
Please help me understand your points of view.
Thanks for your feedback, your comments are appreciated.
Based on your comments, our differences seem to be more generational in nature. You seem to value the total car buying experience and I am focused primary on price.
Let me assure you that I am never rude to any dealership when negotiating these
deals. I clearly outline my expectations to a number of dealers and ask them to contact me if they are interested in pursuing further negotiations. Some pass, but the majority are happy to compete for my business. It is never personal, just business.
It was not my intent to offend.
And I believe it's close to the X-plan price. At least it was for the Freestyle.
One *can* beat X-plan price, but not always. Especially if you're very picky about which specific vehicle you want.
To me, it's not worth a grand on a 30k vehicle to have to get a color I don't want, or not get some feature that I want. Others are free to disagree, of course.
Gentlemen these are harsh and hurtful words.
Misguided - to provide with incorrect information.
Misleading - deceptive; tending to mislead.
Useless - of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile
I did use the words "misleading" and "useless". However, please re-read what I said within the context of my post. I didn't say that YOU were misleading or useless. I don't know you personally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are not intending to be misleading or useless.
I said that the concept of a "leaderboard" is useless at best and misleading at worst. I don't know you personally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are not intending to be misleading or useless.
Please don't interpret my statements as a personal attack upon you or your character, because they are not. They are an expression of my opinion on this "leaderboard" format.
Are you telling me that saving money on a new car by purchasing it below the invoice price and avoiding the extra fees/Add-Ons is deceptive and incorrect information? Additionally, providing this information in a simple to read format is useless? This is certainly not my intent!
I think bobw pretty much summed up why I feel this way in his posts, which is why I didn't elaborate. However, I will do you the courtesy of giving you a complete expression of why I feel the way I do.
Posting the "best price" that somebody has achieved does not tell the whole story. The person might have gotten a good deal on the purchase but a bad deal on the trade-in. The person might have gotten a good deal because they financed with the dealer. The person might have gotten a good deal because the vehicle was an undesirable color. The person might have gotten a good deal because they have bought six cars with the same dealer previously, so they got a loyality "discount". The person might have gotten a good deal because they were hit with fees on the back end of the deal. That is why I believe that the "leaderboard" is useless at best - because it doesn't take into account the deal in its entirety.
The reason why I say that it is misleading at worst is because it gives readers the impression that if they aren't getting that deal, then they might believe that they are getting screwed by the dealership. In truth, the deal that the reader might be getting, while is worse than the "leaderboard" deal, might still be a good deal when all the factors are taken into account. As a result, the reader might turn down a good deal in hopes to obtain that mythical "leaderboard" deal.
The other reason why I don't like the whole "leaderboard" concept is that I believe that it might discourage people from posting their realistic deals. Let's say that I made a good deal on a vehicle, but when I come to this board, I read that the "leaderboard" deal is $500 less than my good deal. At this point, I might not want to post my deal because, when compared to the "leaderboard" deal doesn't seem as good, so why would I expose myself to public criticism because I didn't get as good a deal as somebody else.
I am not saying that you or anyone else on here would actually criticize somebody's deal. I am saying that a potential poster might be scared off from posting for fear of criticism. It is an ego thing. Whenever you buy a car, you always want everyone to think that you got a great deal. Nobody wants to feel like they got taken advantage of by the dealership. By posting the "leaderboard", this might make some people feel like they got an inadequete deal, thus the community loses out on their data point, so to speak.
Again, this is just my opinion on the subject. Since this is an open forum, I cannot enforce my opinion, nor should I. If you want to continue posting your "leaderboard", feel free to continue. However, I am just offering my opinion on the subject.
Also for the record you do give useful information in your posts, but think it the "leader board" that some folks don't like, since there is so much unknown information behind the prices on the leaderboard to make the numbers posted on your leaderboard next to useless.
Plus some folks who really got a good deal may look at your leaderboard and perhaps feel like they got screwed, unless it's your purpose to make folks who paid less than what's on your leaderboard feel bad?
Anyway sello, good info on many posts you make to individual buyers, but why not just drop the leader board posts, as they're not very useful for much.
I guess that $100 bill that you emailed me was for something else then?