..well I've never been exposed to a foot pbrake in a stickshift car (all my stickshifts had hand operated pbrake), and I've never really used the pbrake that way.
Imagine what most of these kids would do with a foot operated dimmer? Reaching around on the floor trying to find that button with your left hand while yoou steer and shift with the right? Maybe that's why the gears were on the tree...
I have four GM cars; all have auto locks. I can program them to lock/unlock according to my preference. I have all set to lock when car is placed into gear, and unlock when car is put in park. I can set them to unlock only when car is turned off, but I don't care for that--does not work for me. I can also program them so that only the driver's lock unlocks, etc. There is a section on this in each of my manuals--three Oldsmobiles and one Pontiac.
Unless a car has automatic door "unlocks" when you apply the e-brake or put it in park (auto trannys), I have absolutely no use for "auto locks". I hate them as they are little more than a nuisance. Whoever did the market analysis of the need/want of auto door locks needs to find a new job.
Personally, I never could understand, one way or the other, the difference between the preference of a hand e-brake over a foot operated e-brake. Although I apply the e-brake whenever I park my car, it never mattered to me which was used. Now, I do have an issue with those "automatic" e-brake releases. I never could understand why the only way to get them to release was to use reverse. If you're going to have an automatic release for an e-break, it should release whenever you shift into any forward or reverse gear.
I had this feature in a rented Buick Rendezvous once and it was convienient. None of my cars have that feature. The Rendezvous would lock when I shifted out of Park and would unlock when I put it back in Park. I found it highly convienient. In any of my current cars, I have to hit the Power Lock switch for it to lock/unlock, or the buttons on the Remote Keyless Entry.
I had a Ford Taurus rental while on a business trip in Canada. (It's okay, I've recovered now.) The beast came with power foot pedals, something I've never had in a car before or since.
Just for the joy of playing with gizmos, and because I was driving 3 hours on the 401, I fixed my foot in a comfortable position and would use the adjustment buttons to push the pedal against my foot when I wanted to accelerate or slow down.
Now, if they would just put the buttons on the steering wheel...
Yeah, I checked it out. I voted for the Mustang as most significant an I'm glad it won.
I'm some what disappointed with the Consumers Choices. I chose my vehicles on the desirability factor, but other seemed to have chosen some really boring vehicles. For example, how could the Honda Accord win the Sedan under $25,000 category is beyond me, with the Chrysler 300 competing? I'm glad that you editors chose it on your list.
Also, the Sedan under $35,000 category, the BMW 5 series? Motor Trend and Car and Driver both show the Infiniti M45 as a better vehicle and the BMW still wins? That's insane. I agree more with the editors choice of the Cadillac STS.
Then there's SUVs. Honda CR-V is the 2005 Consumers Most Wanted SUV under $25,000? What happened to the Ford Freestyle, Honda Element, Ford Escape, Chevrolet Equinox?
In the Large Truck category, Nissan Titan? How could people not pick something like an Escalade EXT, F-150, Ram, or Mark LT?
Back to SUVs, I can think of better ways to spend $45,000 than on a Volkswagen Touareg. But then not everyone agrees with me, I realize that.
In the Exotics, the Ford GT? Not that it's bad, I just thought that the Bentley Continental or Enzo Ferrari would win.
The only vehicles that I voted for the actually won were the Honda Odyssey, Ford Mustang, Mazda 3 and Chevrolet Corvette.
These are the cars I found in common in both lists.
Sedan under $15,000 - Mazda 3 Sedan over $45,000 - Audi A8 Wagon under $15,000 - Scion xB Wagon under $25,000 - Dodge Magnum Wagon over $25,000 - Audi A4 Avant Coupe under $15,000 - Honda Civic Coupe under $25,000 - Ford Mustang Coupe under $45,000 - Chevrolet Corvette Convertible under $25,000 Mazda MX-5 Miata Large Truck - Nissan Titan SUV under $45,000 - Volkswagen Touareg Minivan - Honda Odyssey Exotic - Ford GT
I picked my vehicles based on what I desire most, what I most want in my garage. With vehicles like the Honda Accord and Honda CR-V winning, it appears that not everyone did that.
some people actually want Accords and CR-Vs in their garage. Not everybody is dying for excitement in a car.
For some reason the Infiniti I35 was on the list even though it was discontinued a long time ago... I must have been the only one who voted for it in the sedan under $35,000 category...
Karl, I am 6'-2", I have a sore lower back. I have grandchildren that still use car seats that I take places. I live in San Jose. I like to drive to see sons in L.A., Murphys and Aptos. Not very many pass me. I would like the out the door cost to be 50k or less. Which sedans do you suggest? Thanks, Jack
Obviously you need: Comfort Interior space and safety A quiet cabin at highway speeds Plenty of power All for less than $50,000
Thankfully you're buying in 2005, so the choices are many.
If you are neutral toward SUVs, or even like them, I would suggest the Cadillac SRX. It's comfortable, fast, roomy and handles very well.
Another good one would be the Volvo XC90 with V8, for the same reasons as the Cadillac, except not quite as sporty be even more safe and comfortable.
I haven't driven the new Mercedes M-Class yet, but we have one downstairs and will know more in a few days. I'm assuming it's pretty nice (and a big improvement over the previous version). But this one will be kinda pricey... The new LR3 is also very cool, though some people can't take its looks.
If you're anti SUV then the Audi A6, Cadillac STS or Infiniti M35 would be worth considering. Heck, even the Chrysler 300 with Hemi would be a solid choice and be a bargain compared to the others, though watch that rear visibility (style has its costs...). Also, the wagon version of the A6 is on its way if you can wait and like the idea of a wagon.
Oh, man, you're trying to get me in trouble, aren't you? Did someone who knows me tell you to ask that question?
If I was smart I'd simply say, "Don't get me started on the HHR" but who ever said I was smart?
Problems I have with the HHR 1. It's not as distinctive from other GM truck offerings at the PT Cruiser was when it hit the market...in 2001 The greenhouse simply looks like a shrunken Trailblazer, which is really unfortunate. The PT Cruiser looked like no other Chrysler product (or any other company's product) at the time, which was a key element in its success. 2. It has weak horsepower. The engine offerings are 140 and 170 hp. The PT Cruiser was consistently hammered on for being weak in the area of horsepower, and that vehicle had 150 hp...in 2001. Now it has 150, 180 and 210. I'm stunned that GM would sell a brand new product with such obvious horsepower deficiencies. What's worse? Some people are stunned that I'm stunned by this... 3. And, of course, the big one: it's five years late to the party. This car is so obviously a response to the success of the PT, but it also obviously didn't get started until the PT was already a hit, effectively making it five years late. GM should have either come to market sooner (if that was possible), or written off the PT's market success as a missed opportunity on their part, and moved on. You know, looked further DOWN THE ROAD instead of looking back and playing catch up. The PT started an all-new trend.
When is GM going to start an all-new trend that forces other automakers to play catch up?
BTW, the hardtop convertible G6 is a solid move in this direction -- hardtop convertible for less than $40,000. They need to do more of that kind of thinking.
I'd also add to the list the Lexus GS300, a certified Infiniti I35 (or a brand new one, if you can find it) or possibly (gasp!) a minivan. The Odyssey and Sienna come to mind- they offer plenty of room and are, in my opinion, the perfect road trip vehicles. You're sitting up high, the ride is pretty smooth, there's plenty of room to stretch out and it's doesn't guzzle as much gas as an SUV. If you can get past the image, a minivan would be great. And, on top of that, no minivan costs more than $50,000, so you can look at everything. The top of the line Odyssey runs at around $40,000 with the top of the line AWD Sienna coming in at $41,000-$42,000, although I think you can bargain on the Sienna now since it's not a hot item like the Odyssey still is in some markets.
If you're willing to wait, a Toyota Prius might be nice, but since you'll be driving a lot on the highway and not in the city the fuel economy benefits may not be as great.
Too bad the Lexus RX400h comes in at above $50,000, otherwise I would have suggested that also.
I think this car could be the first groundbreaking car GM has had in a long time. It's the only hardtop convertible that doesn't cost terribly much. (The Mercedes-Benz SLK and Lexus SC430 are very pricey)
I wonder if it'll have waiting lists...
And the latest edition of Consumer Reports which I got in the mail today, tested convertibles. The Chrysler PT Cruiser and Toyota Camry Solara were the only two they recommended.
Would/could be a small sedan based on the Kappa (Solstice) platform. Now there would be a chance for GM to lead into a new segment instead of follow.
Chrysler was the first to bring back a hit RWD drive with the 300. GM could bring back the small RWD sedan. Yes, I know BMW will most likely bring the 1-series here. But, if GM was smart they could beat them to the punch.
I have gone so far as to email Bob Lutz this idea. Unfortunately he did not have an encouraging response.
Seems to me it would be a great idea. I would imagine the Solstice plant has extra capacity. Oh well.
Personally, I think GM has underpowered the H3. An aggressive, macho brand with only a five cylinder does not fit. Maybe it will do well, but there should be a more powerful engine at least as an option.
It will be interesting to see how the HHR does. The buzz on the net seems to be that GM priced it right. How that translates into sales, only time will tell. Maybe there will be an SS version down the road with the supercharged Ecotec providing the fun.
It seems that most car magazines and reviewers always favor the vehicle that provides the most "sporty" ride. By sporty, I mean a vehicle that handles, accelerates and brakes the best.
In a way this is somewhat contradictory to what the market actually buys. Where the media loves the "fun to drive" vehicle, the consumer usually purchases because of value, reliability, safety, style and so on.
I would guess that the majority, 80%, or more of vehicles sold do not qualify as fun to drive or sporty. More than 50% of vehicles sold are trucks and SUVs. Certainly not to many of those would be considered sport orientated.
I am not sure exactly what my point is here. So lets say it is this - the media (in general) praises the vehicles that only a small percent of the consumers buy and dismisses the qualities that the majority desires.
I am not saying this is always the case, but does seem to fit many times. Here is an example - last month the G6 sold around 12,000 units. Almost the same amount as the Chrysler 300. The G6 has pretty much been universally bashed my the press, while the 300 has been heaped with praise. This may not be the best example.
About the H3 - it was probably just good luck, but I think the timing is right for it - not that it gets great gas mileage, but it least it gets better mpg than the H2.
HHR - doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me - as was said above - it's 5 years late to the PT Cruiser party
I agree with post 488, too.....I wish the auto mags would do more tests of cars that people actually buy...it would be great to see a head-to-head test of a 4cyl Camry vs. a 4cyl Accord vs. a 4cyl Altima..... More things like that, and less about some $300K Ferrari that I'll probably never even see, let alone buy...Just IMO
I don't know, I think the thing will actually sell pretty well. They have certainly done a good job of pricing it aggressively. Lots of folks like the "utility" part of a sport utility, but, in the current economic climate, gas pricing/mileage is a huge issue. If the HHR gets decent gas mileage, at those prices, it will sell (think of it as kind of more of a 2WD RAV4/CRV/Element/Vibe/Matrix/Scion B competitor than a PT Cruiser competitor). My mother-in-law already wants one... and my wife would probably have considered one instead of the Envoy we bought last fall.
Since the vehicle is essentially a Cobalt under the skin, it's a far better job of platform engineering than the usual GM "badge engineering" that goes on. Not sure if they're copying the Chrysler trick of listing the vehicle as a truck so that each one sold helps their CAFE rating...
underpowered is an understatement. Check the curb weight. At 4700 lbs and 220 hp it will have a difficult time getting out of its own way with an auto transmission. The five speed will probably be o.k., but realistically how many five speeds will actually be made. I have an Envoy XL. Similar weight, 50 more hp, and it is a dog. A thirsty dog at that.
Alright Guys, in exactly three hours I'm having lunch with Bob Lutz.
No, this is not a joke. He's coming to have lunch with a few of the Edmunds.com editors (I even fielded the initial call from GM's West Coast PR person -- pretty cool).
I'm really looking forward to it as I'd like to get his take on things, directly, without the filter of media coverage.
Anyone have anything specific they want me to bring up to Mr. Lutz? I'll check this discussion as much as possible between now and his arrival.
Maybe I'll bring up the small sedan/Kappa platform idea. That sounded like a good one.
Ask him when GM is going to have a mainstream-priced vehicle that will be able to stand on its own merits, and not have to rely on incentives to move. No, the old-tech-in-new-clothing G6 simply doesn't cut it. Neither does the LaCrosse. They're both superior to the cars they replaced, but simply not competitive in their markets.
It's about the product, Mr. Lutz!
Edit: And I do read his fastlane blog. Good source of info. Also, if you could let him know that GM missed the retro boat on the HHR...put it to bed, and put that money into making a superior mainstram family sedan, rather than a "sorta competitive when you factor in the big stupid incentives" family sedan.
I'd just like to hear something from him that could regenerate excitement about GM - there hasn't been much good news lately, and thus far the response I've seen to all of the negative press and lukewarm-to-negative product feedback has been to pretend that it doesn't exist.
It'd be nice to receive some words on corporate or product direction don't largely comprise platitudes ("we are working hard to restore public confidence...") or clichés ("our product development team is devoting 110%..."), but instead amount to substantive communication.
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Also, if you could bring up the GM vs. Ford, Saab vs. Volvo brand management comparison/contrast...
Let's review, and then cite an example: Ford buys Volvo. GM already pretty much already owns Saab.
Ford decides Volvo needs an SUV in their lineup. They use a dedicated Volvo platform to build what is arguably one of the finest SUVs on the road (this is from someone who's no fan of SUVs, mind you) while keeping the signature essence of Volvo--safety and understated luxury--intact. They then take the Volvo safety innovations like roll stability control and trickle them down to their lower priced offerings (Explorer.)
GM decides Saab needs an SUV. They take a Trailblazer, lower it, and slap a Saab badge on the front.
Volvo is profitable. Saab is nearly dead. Do you see the correlation?
Ask him about the small sedan/Kappa. I think it would be a great small car for Pontiac - if executed properly.
How about the whole GM pricing strategy. Are the comments from Mr. Wagoner really true when he says they are going to price vehicles closer to actual transaction prices? It seems they have done this with all new models like the HHR, Solstice and H3. But, what about models like the Lucerne that are replacing existing ones? If the Lucerne is aggressively priced it would infringe on the LaCrosse. I like the idea, but it seems that it will be hard to pull off unless the models are new and not just replacing current offerings. Maybe this is not a question for Lutz?
Is Zeta really is dead, it would seem to leave a big hole in future products. What is planned in place of the Zeta vehicles? Will there be a GTO after 2006?
It has been hinted that the next generation BLS will be sold in the U.S. on the Epsilon II platform in AWD form. And the next generation CTS will actually grow in size, closer to the 5-series. To me it seems that Cadillac should stay on the RWD with AWD capabilities direction instead of having a FWD with AWD platform in the line up. Some question related to this??
Of course you could ask about the whole Kerkorian stock situation and possible impacts. Not sure he would really want to answer this.
Anyway, those are just a few off the top of my head. Please let us in on your discussion and thoughts when you get a chance.
One more - tell him your thoughts on the HHR. Just kidding, he might not like that one.
I would like to second the question about next-gen GTO, though I'm sure he can't say much.
I hope he understands that "traditional" GM buyer is looking for RWD performance coupes (in both cheaper, Mustang fighers - new Camaro? and in more upscale, lux-sport vehicles - GTO) and sedans (if the Holden Commodore was offered here with a V8 for around 300C prices I'd be on it immediately). Where is GM's answer to the 300? Sorry, the Impala and Grand Prix GXP w/V-8 are not it.
I also think someone needs to point out to him that the decontenting he's kind of led the charge on is one of the reasons why GM cars don't sell to the faithful like they used to. I hated it when ABS became optional, disliked it when things like lighted vanity mirrors and visor extensions went away. Now, things like fog lights are disappearing from things like the Trailblazer - the cost-cutting has gotten completely ridiculous.
I wouldn't be driving a GM car if they didn't have one with as nice an interior and build quality as the GTO (not to mention the performance). They absolutely need to provide this level of design and build quality across all their vehicles - or they are doomed.
I know it's outside his realm, but GM customer service (starting at the dealership level, and going all of the way through the divisions to the Executive Office) is pretty awful, too. I am on GTO #2, because #1 had a problem and the dealer screwed up the car royally - leading to 35 days in the shop in the first 2 1/2 months of ownership. I threatened to lemon-law it, so the agreed to replace the car - dealer got #2 in within a couple of days, but it took GM 54 days! to get the paperwork done so I could drive it home (put it in storage, actually). Absolutely ridiculous - and I've heard enough stories that my experience is not uncommon.
Put in the decontenting, price raises/huge rebates, poor resale, bad service (I've had multiple dealerships deny problems with vehicles, could not duplicate - until the car died/part failed - it seems like this is standard practice), bad customer service - it's no wonder their sales are dropping and they're losing customers (and market share) left and right.
Most other industrialized nations have some form of socialized medicine, meaning that Toyota and Honda (or their employees) only pay about 30% of their direct medical bills, which apparently affects the car makers profits (and thus affects their ability to do product development).
Does GM have an official corporate policy supporting a national health care system in the US? Ditto pension reforms? And is the reported $2,000 cost included in each car price for providing those benefits to GM employees and retirees affect what products are developed globally?
If he just wants to talk cars, ask him what the next global car trend is going to be.
Styling is a problem, too. The Solstice, Sky, and Aura are things GM needs to be doing. The G6 (looks like an Accord wannabe), the Lacrosse (Taurus/Lexus hybrid), Lucerne (Acura/VW Phaeton taillamps), new Impala (Honda cues/bland and boring) are not. Make distinctive vehicles (again, I point to the Chrysler 300). I personally feel the last "stunning" design GM did was the Aurora, and that was 11 years ago.
Ask him when they will do a retro car? Not a truck, SUV or "other" but an honest to goodness car. GM made some of the most beautiful mass produced car designs that ever rolled off a line. Why are they not a least putting one out on the market. The new Mustang should have shown that this will work (Stick with the 60's for me). They don't need to go all retro, but one or two out of all of their vehicles would be nice.
Are you writing this all down? I think you opened up the flood gates.
I live for flood gates! I'm writing as fast as I can.
All good stuff. Obviously we aren't going for an official "grilling" of Mr. Lutz during this lunch, but I'll definitely look for an opportunity to broach these subjects.
I had dinner with the Car Group Marketing Manager of Ford Division on last Saturday night. He was out here getting "man on the street" reactions from people (in Hollywood) with a Ford Fusion prototype that was essentially production spec.
Basically, I told the Ford guy "In 1999 everyone was ready to write Nissan off and today we're all ready to crown Carlos Ghosn king of the Automotive Universe. Benchmark-setting cars like the Altima and G35 are what caused this massive reversal of fortune in a relatively short time (four years), and the domestics need to be taking notes."
I'll probably try to make the same point with Mr. Lutz because I think it encompasses much of the feedback you've all just given me.
Ask Mr. Lutz what the future for Saab is. I'm very interested in what he has planned. I don't think he had the idea of taking an Impreza 2.5, slapping on a Saab badge, tossing on some new wheels, adding $3000 to the price tag and calling it a day. Ask him why they did that when Ford took the new Focus platform, let Volvo and Mazda heavily revise it, let them style it, let them put in their own engines, interior, wheels, features, and seats and hope it sells. If somebody parked a Mazda3i next to a Volvo S40 2.4i I don't think they would tell that underneath they were basically the same car. But park a 9-2X and a Impreza next to each other and they look very alike.
Also ask him about the compact RWD sedan. Maybe it could go to Saab. Or Pontiac. Or both.
First, I should mention that the majority of the lunch was spent viewing final production photos of the next: Trailblazer Rainier Rendezvous (will have new name) Malibu Ion Vue CTS
These included front, profile, rear and interior shots. These photos are all embagoed so I can't go into details, but I can say that the images were very compelling, particularly the interior images. He also had shots of the Saturn Aura and Sky, and since you've seen those images already I can say that the interior shots of the other vehicles looked as good as the Aura's, which is very promising. The CTS, Ion and Malibu interiors struck me as particularly attractive (great colors and shapes). There was a detail that I noticed about the CTS interior that I'm sure I can't talk about, but it was VERY cool, and I believe it will be an industry first.
The exteriors all looked better than the current versions, though a few of them were highly derivative with obvious influences from current competitors. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since half the models on the market today look like the other half to some extent, but nothing blew me away in terms of originiality (though most were strong in the execution of the details).
All this viewing and discussion of future models didn't leave a lot of time for Q&A, but I did bring up the small car/rear-wheel drive future of GM with Mr. Lutz. The answer is probably also off limits, but I can say this. It's better to do something right than not at all...and I think GM is starting to apply this to future product development. Don't count the small car, rear-wheel drive platform at GM out just yet...
Sorry for the lack of details, but one of my core beliefs is to never break embargo dates. Working at an Internet publication for the last seven years has presented me with plenty of opportunity to "beat the competition" if I'm willing to ignore embargo dates, but I'm not. Ironically, I see the print books do it all the time, but that's a level I don't ever want to go to.
Some other themes of the discussion included taking better advantage of GM's global partners to save costs and improve product development and speed to market. I personally think that's why Chrysler is finally doing so well. It took seven years after the merger, but by using old, lightly modified E-Class platforms for the new 300 and Magnum (and Charger) those cars offer exceptional driving dynamics while costing much less to develop compared to brand new platforms. From the way Mr. Lutz was talking I expect to see this kind of collaboration between the various GM global divisions going forward. And about time (his words, not mine).
The lunch was very informative overall, and Mr. Lutz made a specific mention of "not benchmarking current production models" but instead benchmarking for future product so that they can be at or near the top of a given segment when a car goes on sale. This wasn't a response to a question from any of the Edmunds editors but an unsolicited statement by Mr. Lutz.
Hallelujah!
It looks like the light at the end of this tunnel may not actually be a train!
So, what are the time frames for these seven vehicles that you were shown?
I am thinking most of these are 2007 models or later.
Were they actual photos or just computer images?
Did he mention if the Aura will get the 3.6? I was skeptical (but hopeful) in regards to this engine actually making it to the production version
"All this viewing and discussion of future models didn't leave a lot of time for Q&A, but I did bring up the small car/rear-wheel drive future of GM with Mr. Lutz. The answer is probably also off limits, but I can say this. It's better to do something right than not at all...and I think GM is starting to apply this to future product development. Don't count the small car, rear-wheel drive platform at GM out just yet... "
I think it was all 2007 or 2008 stuff at the latest. We saw actual photos, no renderings or sketches.
We didn't get into specifics regarding the drivetrain on any of the models. I'm sure that stuff is still off limits to journalists, even in embargoed form. We were told about a few trick features, including an SUV convenience feature that should be an industry first (unless someone else comes out with it between now and 2007). This is in addition to the cool CTS feature I mentioned earlier.
Ok, I am going to see if I can figure/find out what this is. When I do, I am going to contact you (not in a public forum) and let you know what I found.
Here is my guess - the next generation RDV is going to be built on the upcoming Lambada platform. These vehicles will be produced at the Delta Twsp plant currently under construction just outside Lansing, Michigan. I believe the plant is scheduled to open in less than a year.
If I remember correctly Saturn is to get the first model out of that plant. Buick (Rendezvous replacement) and GMC are also getting variations.
I would think that next years auto show circuit would have some of these models make their debuts.
Comments
..well I've never been exposed to a foot pbrake in a stickshift car (all my stickshifts had hand operated pbrake), and I've never really used the pbrake that way.
I've GOT to get out more often....
Steve, Host
ummm, nope, can't place it. I've heard you can ski in that stuff but I always figured that would be kinda rough on the boat hull.....
Imagine what most of these kids would do with a foot operated dimmer? Reaching around on the floor trying to find that button with your left hand while yoou steer and shift with the right? Maybe that's why the gears were on the tree...
Personally, I never could understand, one way or the other, the difference between the preference of a hand e-brake over a foot operated e-brake. Although I apply the e-brake whenever I park my car, it never mattered to me which was used. Now, I do have an issue with those "automatic" e-brake releases. I never could understand why the only way to get them to release was to use reverse. If you're going to have an automatic release for an e-break, it should release whenever you shift into any forward or reverse gear.
Just for the joy of playing with gizmos, and because I was driving 3 hours on the 401, I fixed my foot in a comfortable position and would use the adjustment buttons to push the pedal against my foot when I wanted to accelerate or slow down.
Now, if they would just put the buttons on the steering wheel...
I'm some what disappointed with the Consumers Choices. I chose my vehicles on the desirability factor, but other seemed to have chosen some really boring vehicles. For example, how could the Honda Accord win the Sedan under $25,000 category is beyond me, with the Chrysler 300 competing? I'm glad that you editors chose it on your list.
Also, the Sedan under $35,000 category, the BMW 5 series? Motor Trend and Car and Driver both show the Infiniti M45 as a better vehicle and the BMW still wins? That's insane. I agree more with the editors choice of the Cadillac STS.
Then there's SUVs. Honda CR-V is the 2005 Consumers Most Wanted SUV under $25,000? What happened to the Ford Freestyle, Honda Element, Ford Escape, Chevrolet Equinox?
In the Large Truck category, Nissan Titan? How could people not pick something like an Escalade EXT, F-150, Ram, or Mark LT?
Back to SUVs, I can think of better ways to spend $45,000 than on a Volkswagen Touareg. But then not everyone agrees with me, I realize that.
In the Exotics, the Ford GT? Not that it's bad, I just thought that the Bentley Continental or Enzo Ferrari would win.
The only vehicles that I voted for the actually won were the Honda Odyssey, Ford Mustang, Mazda 3 and Chevrolet Corvette.
These are the cars I found in common in both lists.
Sedan under $15,000 - Mazda 3
Sedan over $45,000 - Audi A8
Wagon under $15,000 - Scion xB
Wagon under $25,000 - Dodge Magnum
Wagon over $25,000 - Audi A4 Avant
Coupe under $15,000 - Honda Civic
Coupe under $25,000 - Ford Mustang
Coupe under $45,000 - Chevrolet Corvette
Convertible under $25,000 Mazda MX-5 Miata
Large Truck - Nissan Titan
SUV under $45,000 - Volkswagen Touareg
Minivan - Honda Odyssey
Exotic - Ford GT
I picked my vehicles based on what I desire most, what I most want in my garage. With vehicles like the Honda Accord and Honda CR-V winning, it appears that not everyone did that.
For some reason the Infiniti I35 was on the list even though it was discontinued a long time ago... I must have been the only one who voted for it in the sedan under $35,000 category...
I am 6'-2", I have a sore lower back.
I have grandchildren that still use car seats that I take places.
I live in San Jose.
I like to drive to see sons in L.A., Murphys and Aptos.
Not very many pass me.
I would like the out the door cost to be 50k or less.
Which sedans do you suggest?
Thanks,
Jack
Comfort
Interior space and safety
A quiet cabin at highway speeds
Plenty of power
All for less than $50,000
Thankfully you're buying in 2005, so the choices are many.
If you are neutral toward SUVs, or even like them, I would suggest the Cadillac SRX. It's comfortable, fast, roomy and handles very well.
Another good one would be the Volvo XC90 with V8, for the same reasons as the Cadillac, except not quite as sporty be even more safe and comfortable.
I haven't driven the new Mercedes M-Class yet, but we have one downstairs and will know more in a few days. I'm assuming it's pretty nice (and a big improvement over the previous version). But this one will be kinda pricey... The new LR3 is also very cool, though some people can't take its looks.
If you're anti SUV then the Audi A6, Cadillac STS or Infiniti M35 would be worth considering. Heck, even the Chrysler 300 with Hemi would be a solid choice and be a bargain compared to the others, though watch that rear visibility (style has its costs...). Also, the wagon version of the A6 is on its way if you can wait and like the idea of a wagon.
Hope this helps.
Is seems that for a change GM may have it priced correctly.
I kind of like it, but wonder if GM is a little late to the party with their PT look alike?
If I was smart I'd simply say, "Don't get me started on the HHR" but who ever said I was smart?
Problems I have with the HHR
1. It's not as distinctive from other GM truck offerings at the PT Cruiser was when it hit the market...in 2001 The greenhouse simply looks like a shrunken Trailblazer, which is really unfortunate. The PT Cruiser looked like no other Chrysler product (or any other company's product) at the time, which was a key element in its success.
2. It has weak horsepower. The engine offerings are 140 and 170 hp. The PT Cruiser was consistently hammered on for being weak in the area of horsepower, and that vehicle had 150 hp...in 2001. Now it has 150, 180 and 210. I'm stunned that GM would sell a brand new product with such obvious horsepower deficiencies. What's worse? Some people are stunned that I'm stunned by this...
3. And, of course, the big one: it's five years late to the party. This car is so obviously a response to the success of the PT, but it also obviously didn't get started until the PT was already a hit, effectively making it five years late. GM should have either come to market sooner (if that was possible), or written off the PT's market success as a missed opportunity on their part, and moved on. You know, looked further DOWN THE ROAD instead of looking back and playing catch up. The PT started an all-new trend.
When is GM going to start an all-new trend that forces other automakers to play catch up?
BTW, the hardtop convertible G6 is a solid move in this direction -- hardtop convertible for less than $40,000. They need to do more of that kind of thinking.
But that's just my take.
If you're willing to wait, a Toyota Prius might be nice, but since you'll be driving a lot on the highway and not in the city the fuel economy benefits may not be as great.
Too bad the Lexus RX400h comes in at above $50,000, otherwise I would have suggested that also.
I wonder if it'll have waiting lists...
And the latest edition of Consumer Reports which I got in the mail today, tested convertibles. The Chrysler PT Cruiser and Toyota Camry Solara were the only two they recommended.
Chrysler was the first to bring back a hit RWD drive with the 300. GM could bring back the small RWD sedan. Yes, I know BMW will most likely bring the 1-series here. But, if GM was smart they could beat them to the punch.
I have gone so far as to email Bob Lutz this idea. Unfortunately he did not have an encouraging response.
Seems to me it would be a great idea. I would imagine the Solstice plant has extra capacity. Oh well.
He might have a problem with a new GS300 ............
Terry.
Personally, I think GM has underpowered the H3. An aggressive, macho brand with only a five cylinder does not fit. Maybe it will do well, but there should be a more powerful engine at least as an option.
It will be interesting to see how the HHR does. The buzz on the net seems to be that GM priced it right. How that translates into sales, only time will tell. Maybe there will be an SS version down the road with the supercharged Ecotec providing the fun.
In a way this is somewhat contradictory to what the market actually buys. Where the media loves the "fun to drive" vehicle, the consumer usually purchases because of value, reliability, safety, style and so on.
I would guess that the majority, 80%, or more of vehicles sold do not qualify as fun to drive or sporty. More than 50% of vehicles sold are trucks and SUVs. Certainly not to many of those would be considered sport orientated.
I am not sure exactly what my point is here. So lets say it is this - the media (in general) praises the vehicles that only a small percent of the consumers buy and dismisses the qualities that the majority desires.
I am not saying this is always the case, but does seem to fit many times. Here is an example - last month the G6 sold around 12,000 units. Almost the same amount as the Chrysler 300. The G6 has pretty much been universally bashed my the press, while the 300 has been heaped with praise. This may not be the best example.
HHR - doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me - as was said above - it's 5 years late to the PT Cruiser party
Since the vehicle is essentially a Cobalt under the skin, it's a far better job of platform engineering than the usual GM "badge engineering" that goes on. Not sure if they're copying the Chrysler trick of listing the vehicle as a truck so that each one sold helps their CAFE rating...
--Robert
No, this is not a joke. He's coming to have lunch with a few of the Edmunds.com editors (I even fielded the initial call from GM's West Coast PR person -- pretty cool).
I'm really looking forward to it as I'd like to get his take on things, directly, without the filter of media coverage.
Anyone have anything specific they want me to bring up to Mr. Lutz? I'll check this discussion as much as possible between now and his arrival.
Maybe I'll bring up the small sedan/Kappa platform idea. That sounded like a good one.
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It's about the product, Mr. Lutz!
Edit: And I do read his fastlane blog. Good source of info.
Also, if you could let him know that GM missed the retro boat on the HHR...put it to bed, and put that money into making a superior mainstram family sedan, rather than a "sorta competitive when you factor in the big stupid incentives" family sedan.
It'd be nice to receive some words on corporate or product direction don't largely comprise platitudes ("we are working hard to restore public confidence...") or clichés ("our product development team is devoting 110%..."), but instead amount to substantive communication.
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Let's review, and then cite an example: Ford buys Volvo. GM already pretty much already owns Saab.
Ford decides Volvo needs an SUV in their lineup. They use a dedicated Volvo platform to build what is arguably one of the finest SUVs on the road (this is from someone who's no fan of SUVs, mind you) while keeping the signature essence of Volvo--safety and understated luxury--intact. They then take the Volvo safety innovations like roll stability control and trickle them down to their lower priced offerings (Explorer.)
GM decides Saab needs an SUV. They take a Trailblazer, lower it, and slap a Saab badge on the front.
Volvo is profitable. Saab is nearly dead. Do you see the correlation?
How about the whole GM pricing strategy. Are the comments from Mr. Wagoner really true when he says they are going to price vehicles closer to actual transaction prices? It seems they have done this with all new models like the HHR, Solstice and H3. But, what about models like the Lucerne that are replacing existing ones? If the Lucerne is aggressively priced it would infringe on the LaCrosse. I like the idea, but it seems that it will be hard to pull off unless the models are new and not just replacing current offerings. Maybe this is not a question for Lutz?
Is Zeta really is dead, it would seem to leave a big hole in future products. What is planned in place of the Zeta vehicles? Will there be a GTO after 2006?
It has been hinted that the next generation BLS will be sold in the U.S. on the Epsilon II platform in AWD form. And the next generation CTS will actually grow in size, closer to the 5-series. To me it seems that Cadillac should stay on the RWD with AWD capabilities direction instead of having a FWD with AWD platform in the line up. Some question related to this??
Of course you could ask about the whole Kerkorian stock situation and possible impacts. Not sure he would really want to answer this.
Anyway, those are just a few off the top of my head. Please let us in on your discussion and thoughts when you get a chance.
One more - tell him your thoughts on the HHR. Just kidding, he might not like that one.
I hope he understands that "traditional" GM buyer is looking for RWD performance coupes (in both cheaper, Mustang fighers - new Camaro? and in more upscale, lux-sport vehicles - GTO) and sedans (if the Holden Commodore was offered here with a V8 for around 300C prices I'd be on it immediately). Where is GM's answer to the 300? Sorry, the Impala and Grand Prix GXP w/V-8 are not it.
I also think someone needs to point out to him that the decontenting he's kind of led the charge on is one of the reasons why GM cars don't sell to the faithful like they used to. I hated it when ABS became optional, disliked it when things like lighted vanity mirrors and visor extensions went away. Now, things like fog lights are disappearing from things like the Trailblazer - the cost-cutting has gotten completely ridiculous.
I wouldn't be driving a GM car if they didn't have one with as nice an interior and build quality as the GTO (not to mention the performance). They absolutely need to provide this level of design and build quality across all their vehicles - or they are doomed.
I know it's outside his realm, but GM customer service (starting at the dealership level, and going all of the way through the divisions to the Executive Office) is pretty awful, too. I am on GTO #2, because #1 had a problem and the dealer screwed up the car royally - leading to 35 days in the shop in the first 2 1/2 months of ownership. I threatened to lemon-law it, so the agreed to replace the car - dealer got #2 in within a couple of days, but it took GM 54 days! to get the paperwork done so I could drive it home (put it in storage, actually). Absolutely ridiculous - and I've heard enough stories that my experience is not uncommon.
Put in the decontenting, price raises/huge rebates, poor resale, bad service (I've had multiple dealerships deny problems with vehicles, could not duplicate - until the car died/part failed - it seems like this is standard practice), bad customer service - it's no wonder their sales are dropping and they're losing customers (and market share) left and right.
--Robert
Does GM have an official corporate policy supporting a national health care system in the US? Ditto pension reforms? And is the reported $2,000 cost included in each car price for providing those benefits to GM employees and retirees affect what products are developed globally?
If he just wants to talk cars, ask him what the next global car trend is going to be.
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All good stuff. Obviously we aren't going for an official "grilling" of Mr. Lutz during this lunch, but I'll definitely look for an opportunity to broach these subjects.
I had dinner with the Car Group Marketing Manager of Ford Division on last Saturday night. He was out here getting "man on the street" reactions from people (in Hollywood) with a Ford Fusion prototype that was essentially production spec.
Basically, I told the Ford guy "In 1999 everyone was ready to write Nissan off and today we're all ready to crown Carlos Ghosn king of the Automotive Universe. Benchmark-setting cars like the Altima and G35 are what caused this massive reversal of fortune in a relatively short time (four years), and the domestics need to be taking notes."
I'll probably try to make the same point with Mr. Lutz because I think it encompasses much of the feedback you've all just given me.
Thanks!
Also ask him about the compact RWD sedan. Maybe it could go to Saab. Or Pontiac. Or both.
Just got back (nearly three hour lunch).
First, I should mention that the majority of the lunch was spent viewing final production photos of the next:
Trailblazer
Rainier
Rendezvous (will have new name)
Malibu
Ion
Vue
CTS
These included front, profile, rear and interior shots. These photos are all embagoed so I can't go into details, but I can say that the images were very compelling, particularly the interior images. He also had shots of the Saturn Aura and Sky, and since you've seen those images already I can say that the interior shots of the other vehicles looked as good as the Aura's, which is very promising. The CTS, Ion and Malibu interiors struck me as particularly attractive (great colors and shapes). There was a detail that I noticed about the CTS interior that I'm sure I can't talk about, but it was VERY cool, and I believe it will be an industry first.
The exteriors all looked better than the current versions, though a few of them were highly derivative with obvious influences from current competitors. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since half the models on the market today look like the other half to some extent, but nothing blew me away in terms of originiality (though most were strong in the execution of the details).
All this viewing and discussion of future models didn't leave a lot of time for Q&A, but I did bring up the small car/rear-wheel drive future of GM with Mr. Lutz. The answer is probably also off limits, but I can say this. It's better to do something right than not at all...and I think GM is starting to apply this to future product development. Don't count the small car, rear-wheel drive platform at GM out just yet...
Sorry for the lack of details, but one of my core beliefs is to never break embargo dates. Working at an Internet publication for the last seven years has presented me with plenty of opportunity to "beat the competition" if I'm willing to ignore embargo dates, but I'm not. Ironically, I see the print books do it all the time, but that's a level I don't ever want to go to.
Some other themes of the discussion included taking better advantage of GM's global partners to save costs and improve product development and speed to market. I personally think that's why Chrysler is finally doing so well. It took seven years after the merger, but by using old, lightly modified E-Class platforms for the new 300 and Magnum (and Charger) those cars offer exceptional driving dynamics while costing much less to develop compared to brand new platforms. From the way Mr. Lutz was talking I expect to see this kind of collaboration between the various GM global divisions going forward. And about time (his words, not mine).
The lunch was very informative overall, and Mr. Lutz made a specific mention of "not benchmarking current production models" but instead benchmarking for future product so that they can be at or near the top of a given segment when a car goes on sale. This wasn't a response to a question from any of the Edmunds editors but an unsolicited statement by Mr. Lutz.
Hallelujah!
It looks like the light at the end of this tunnel may not actually be a train!
I am thinking most of these are 2007 models or later.
Were they actual photos or just computer images?
Did he mention if the Aura will get the 3.6? I was skeptical (but hopeful) in regards to this engine actually making it to the production version
"All this viewing and discussion of future models didn't leave a lot of time for Q&A, but I did bring up the small car/rear-wheel drive future of GM with Mr. Lutz. The answer is probably also off limits, but I can say this. It's better to do something right than not at all...and I think GM is starting to apply this to future product development. Don't count the small car, rear-wheel drive platform at GM out just yet... "
That at least sounds somewhat promising.
We didn't get into specifics regarding the drivetrain on any of the models. I'm sure that stuff is still off limits to journalists, even in embargoed form. We were told about a few trick features, including an SUV convenience feature that should be an industry first (unless someone else comes out with it between now and 2007). This is in addition to the cool CTS feature I mentioned earlier.
Let the search begin.
I am very much interested in the new Rendezvous, or whatever it will be called. Can you tell me when the embargo will expire? :confuse:
If I remember correctly Saturn is to get the first model out of that plant. Buick (Rendezvous replacement) and GMC are also getting variations.
I would think that next years auto show circuit would have some of these models make their debuts.
Pretty sure most of this is correct.