Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

starrow68 · April 2005

"Okay, it's 57 years for Porsche and Ferrari...got me there cheating 3 years ... "

Hey that's over 5% error, and in a Sarbanes-Oxley world you're a felon! Never admit a mistake, suggest it was the system and you had good intentions, makes a difference under federal rules, sec. 8, I think.

Problem with worry about what happened in history of racing is that I'm in the 99th percential, never followed it and only know what I've read in the last couple years. Loved the link to the London Times article, I too grew up a Ford guy. Maybe too much baggage is a burden and it helps just looking at what is offered today. I'm really having trouble imagining how fast a C6 Z06 will be in the track, down right dangerous I'm thinking!

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

I'm waiting for some nutcase to take one on the Silver State Classic....those guys are hitting over 200 mph on (closed) public roads!

I'd like to enter in the 140 mph class. I think after that you have to really modify your car.

xkss · April 2005

I agree about the vision of one man and a few others with regard to sports cars and racing.

I've heard that Aston Martin has never made a profit, but they will make a profit this year. Wealthy owners kept Aston Martin going.

Carroll Shelby had the idea to take a big-block Ford V-8, install it in a British sports car's chassis, modify it, and go racing. Peter Brock then styled the Shelby Daytona Coupe which dominated the Ferraris.

The following is from http://www.corvettemuseum.com/library-archives/timeline/1951.shtml

"The Automobile Manufacturer's Association passes a resolution that recommends that member companies (including General Motors) not participate in auto racing."
- June 4th, 1957

I've heard that a Mercedes-Benz racecar crashed at a major race in 1957 or so and over eighty people died. Mercedes-Benz pulled out of racing after that. They didn't come back to racing until decades later.

The following is from the same link shown above

"Zora Arkus-Duntov, in a Corvette SS, hits 183 MPH on the General Motors Proving Grounds in Phoenix, Arizona."

The following is from http://www.corvettemuseum.com/library-archives/timeline/1960.shtml

"General Motors' Chairman Frederic Donner issues a policy memo, re-iterating the company's compliance with 1957 AMA company-sponsored racing ban. This officially cancels production plans for the Corvette Grand Sport, with only 5 of the intended 125 cars built. [1] [3] [30] [55.77] [79.70] [106.5] [131.84] (February [7]) (halt called first week, 5 cars built after that"

- January 21, 1963

Zora Arkus-Duntov is the "father of the Corvette."

Dave Hill and Bob Lutz are likely bigger car enthusiasts than other people at GM.

My guess is that the people behind the C6-R want to dominate racing and they aren't going to let Aston Martin, Maserati, or Saleen get in their way. The more car makers in racing, the better. They probably welcome the competition. If the C6-R turns out to be a flop, which it wasn't at Sebring, it would still be the LAST racecar that GM would pull out of racing.

Pontiac will back the GTO in the Grand-Am Rolex Sports car series by mid-season, which includes 911 GT3s and BMW M3s.

I have no doubt that Don Panoz is sick and tired of Porsche 911s winning race after race in the American Le Mans Series. He now has two GTLMs running this year compared to one last year.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

But Panoz makes all the decisions I guess, so he might stay no matter what. It pays to be nuts in this game.

Beancounters on the other hand only count beans. They don't understand passion and glory and heritage. Unfortunately, in most corporations the passion boys don't hold the power. That's what's nice about having a company with a dictator.

The only way I can see for an American company to stay in racing is for that company to carefully choose the arena, and only go into venues where the car has a good chance. Otherwise the beancounters will bust your racing program sure as shootin'.

speeds2much · April 2005

Thought I'd chime in here. When someone says "sports car," the first thing that comes to my mind is "British sports car," i.e. MG, A-H, Jag etc. with a tan rag top and British racing green paint. I can imagine a chap with goggles and a scarf cruising down back roads of England with his girlfriend. Definately first half of the twentieth century while jets were still nothing more than German top secrets. Sports cars and auto racing grew alongside each other in the early aviation age, and the idea of barnstorming and performance driving seem to have been intertwined during that era.

The early Corvettes, which were beautiful cars by the way, evoked Italian (i.e. Ferrari) design elements and still do imo. Porsche was a different kind of animal...sort of garage mechanic's culture, really. Porsche brothers loved to race tractors, so heck, why not drop a hot engine into the Beetle and have some fun!? That lead to the improbable, rear-engined 911 series...an accident of invention, perhaps.

All of the above can be called sports cars in their own right, because they all have an air of danger and adventure and freedom and impracticality...even a touch of madness. Like the way men perceive women, perhaps??

starrow68 · April 2005

I hear about the cars and the makers but in some cases the sanctioning bodies make the winners. Ask a few other than Archer why Viper is winning in the World Challenge right now. Restrictor plates and weight, added after a good result but then not removed when the results change might be a factor. Lou G. took 3rd in a Corvette in the last race after blowing an engine in 5th place the prior race. Also what benefits is the Caddy effort getting since it is factory backed with advertising dollars for the series? It's not always about the best car or driver for that matter.
I wonder right now if "F" is holding back in F1 so the series doesn't break up and leave them out of power. We will never know.
The racing is fun to watch but driving is more fun still!
Randy

porscheguy1 · April 2005

I'm not sure you could call early Corvettes sports cars. Sure they had a swoopy body and were two seaters, but they were no fun in the corners. And the braking performance was pretty bad.

designman · April 2005

Can you call any early sports car a sports car? We romanticize them but whenever I see them on the road theyre not quite the way I like to remember themthey look mighty rickety. That said, yes indeed the early Vettes are vilified. They looked as cool as fazool though, especially the Stingray which I hold on a pedestal as one of the best styling jobs of all time. It still looks modern today. I also loved the MGs and Healeys. When I get in the old Vettes I coif my pompadour and put on the Duprees. In the MGs I get out the mustache wax and aviator shades. Of course now that I have a Boxster I do nothing but go to Starbucks. Shifty, do you wear a sharkskin suit quite often? ;-)

Speeds2much barnstorming love it. The real sports cars of that bygone era were the biplanes. Ever go to an aviation show at the old aerodrome museum in Rhinebeck NY?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Actually I might be wearing a sharkskin suit someday soon if I keep boogie-boarding at Stinson Beach. They tried to eat some guy not too long ago right there in 6 feet of water...but it was one of those harmless sharks...a Great White something or other :confuse:

Speaking of sportscars (sorry host for veering off topic) and old Corvettes, I guess you could call them "sportscars" but they had ZERO credibility as sportscars among the then small, fanatical group of propeller heads who even knew what a sportscar was in 1953.

Once the Corvette got the V-8 engine and starting racing, I think the view of the car slowly slowly changed. With the Stingray, the car got at least a credible suspension and brakes albeit not spectacular like they have now.

To my mind, the first Corvette to earn the title "sportscar" would be the C4---it went fast, could corner, and it bashed your teeth together while rattling the windows---these were all good signs to me.

ultimatedriver · April 2005

Completely agreed with Shifty's previous post (#60) about the C4. The one that I drove had the chiropractic Z51 suspension (the shock valving of which I deemed better than the Z06 I drove in 2002).

That was a real leap in the evolution of the Corvette line. It showed that the engineers actually drive their cars and took notes as to what they did and didn't like. It's what I think is one of the key differences between my love for Corvettes and sports cars from the rest of the world. I feel like the engineers are regular Joes like me putting in the overtime because they see their work in action to the tune of about 1.3 million units (as of 2003).

I understand that there is a passion that lies in the tiny villages of Italy for the marques that reside therein. However, those products seem so out of reach for the people, that their passion can only reach so deep.

Germans are pretty loyal to their brands as they have a wide selection to chose from as far as getting into a sports car is concerned.

However a lot of fans of the Corvette actually end up owners one day. So maybe the sports car cred of the Corvette doesn't need to be steeped in years of history (this is just an opinion, so keep all angry replys to yourselves). The 'Vette, to me, will always be the car I can wish for while I'm young, and obtain when I'm closer to being young at heart.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

I'd like a 1962, 4-speed, red and white, thank you very much.

designman · April 2005

Absolutely, that one's in heaven. A look that lasts forever. And it's Americana.

Shifty, what did you think of the Fiat 124 Spyder?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Fiat 124 Spider was a nice little sports car. Beautiful ride, nice snug convertible top that was a dream to put up and down (not like infernal British tops of the day). Probably my biggest complaint was a lot of driveline "whip" due to how the driveline was mounted with lots of squishy bushings. So you floor it and get this uh-UH_=-UH while your head bobbles around. But gee, you got dohc engine, 5-speeds, good handling and Fiat quality==hahahahaha! Fun to drive, though.

The last Spyders were fuel injected and those were better. They also made a turbo 2.0 liter 1982?...pretty quick but really I don't think the engine and cooling system were up to the task. So a 1981 FI model would be my pick.

They also made a coupe, which is kinda rare but a neat little car.

starrow68 · April 2005

As to the 3 open road runs in northern Nevada I think I may sign up for the 105 mile an hour class one year to see what it takes before trying to run over 80% for 20 to 25 minutes, up to an hour? I know my car will run 80 to 120 for extended periods, I don't know it will run 130 to 150 or that I have the required safety equipment. I think I'm good with fire extinguisher and harness up into low 100's. Let me know when you're going

!
Randy

starrow68 · April 2005

http://www.mlive.com/business/fljournal/index.ssf?/base/business-0/1113492154213530.xml

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Running wide open for an hour is stressful. I guess I told you that my friend Monty has blown up two C5 engines doing this, but he did hit 178 or so he says. Oh, well, it's like with boats---they are safe in harbor but that's not what they are for.

Corvettes seem to generally do well in these events, or at least the ones that survive do, as do Vipers. I don't know why the Porsche and Ferrari owners are not running more of these things, but maybe they don't want to blow the suckers up. Actually, a 996 crate engine is not that expensive ($7000) but I have no confidence in a 996 engine. I'd run a 993 engine no problem at max speed all day long. Of course I'd think twice about putting a Ferrari engine at risk as I would find it painful to be writing a $30K-$60K check for a new one.

Porsche 928 engines are very strong but I'll need new tires. I think I can wear my motorcycle helmet for the 120 class and a long sleeve shirt I think is the other requirement----oh, shoes, you can't wear sandals.

FLINT JOURNAL -- c'mon you can do better than that---that's a fluff piece.

ultimatedriver · April 2005

I've been looking at that event for quite some time. My 1997 BMW 325i has been extensively modified for road course work. The only exterior modification I've made is the addition of an M3 body kit from the same year.

I'm not as well versed as I'd like to be in long distance high speed races such as this. I would imagine that I'd slightly increase the output of my engine to compensate for the fact that I live in Florida at sea level. Right now I've got 257whp@7350RPM. I'm not sure how aerodynamically sound the 1997 M3 sedan was at the time. I've topped my car out at 166.7mph with great stability even with crosswinds. I have a progressive rate coil-over suspension with gas charged Ohlins at all 4 corners. Brakes are cross-drilled 13.5" units with 4 piston calipers all around. Every component of fluid management is upgraded or new, as well as cooled beyond stock specification (transmission, oil, water, etc).

I'm not sure if I need to put more hardware into my car before taking it up there. If you have successfully run this race before, please let me know.

starrow68 · April 2005

Of the team that went to Nevada! Somebody to run in every class. I even have
the driving suit for the open wheel cars I get in every so often but tennis shoes
seem to work better than driving shoes on the Corvette pedals. Fire extinguisher
is installed, now I just have to check out one of the routes. I've only had the
stock coupe up to 165 once for a short run, it was uphill, but the road was perfect which is very hard to find with nobody in either direction. Is this the year?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

I gather that top recorded speed in the Unlimited class is 207 mph or something like that.

You have to be a pretty good driver to go that fast and live to tell about it.

Well I think real sports cars have to be "sacrificial". They are built to win or die trying (the cars I mean, not the drivers, hopefully).

designman · April 2005

I have to say I am completely jealous. Questions. Do you guys have contingency plans in case your engines go up in a puff of smoke? Also, is it safe to assume that you survey the course before doing it? Remember that book Real Men Dont Eat Quiche? Well it sounds like real men enter this race. Good luck.

You know its funny, I was recently reading NYS traffic laws. It mentioned sanctioned open road races and that in certain circumstances you can get a ticket in such a race if you are perceived as driving recklessly.

BTW, someone mentioned strengthening the breed. It was announced today that Porsche has returned to racing with a prototype race car. Looks like Cayenne might have done its job.

http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?NewsID=932

starrow68 · April 2005

I'm looking for some one local who wants to check it out before I sign up for anything. Seemed to work before I went out to HPDE track days. I think as you point out that losing an engine is not improbable, so I'm guessing that if I do it, I will trailer the car up to the course. Also doing a survey with note taker seems to make great good sense, although for Vette's there is a common rule of thumb, if the corner is posted with a warning speed that you can double it safely.

Saw the Porsche announcement today as well, looking for WCGT info. Good season for new things to watch.
Randy

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Yes, I have a contingency plan if my 928 engine goes up in smoke---junk it. "A man should never gamble more than he can afford to lose". I'm certainly not going to spend $10,000 on a car that probably isn't even worth that. To be optimistic though, I have never seen a 928 bottom end go....but cylinder heads and gaskets, sure that can happen.

I'm okay with the speed part up to 140 but not with the timing thing...you've got to be pretty close to the mark.

starrow68 · April 2005

You've got to be close on the timing unless you are going to make somebody else feel good

. That way if there is anyone else that ends up making me feel good, I can thank them honestly. I think until you've done it a couple times to even consider that you might be competitive would be a let down. IMHO

ultimatedriver · April 2005

If the Bimmer goes boom, then I'll have to take a deep breath and put the S50 Euro-spec M3 motor sitting on my stand in there. It's a neat little unit to tinker with and cost me about $1800.00USD. Since receiving it, I've swapped the entire cooling system with more durable hardware, lightened the valvetrain and driveline to improve response and gotten a performance chip so's I can tinker.

If life were a little closer to perfect, then a race like that would take days and stretch across the continent, cannonball run style. I'd perform parts swaps on the side of the road, just like the road soldiers of yore.

Then again, that's just me... Or is it?

starrow68 · April 2005

Try either The One Lap or here in the west the Open Track Challenge:
http://www.opentrackchallenge.com/2005tour.htm
http://www.onelapofamerica.com/
Since some frown on Cannonball runs :surprise: these are the ones I've come across and followed for the last two years. Haven't yet gotten to see either but if I could find the right support I'd consider the OTC in the future. C&D Mag had a good write up of last years One Lap and there was plenty of fixing going on along the way to suit any purist. Lots of people pitching in to fix other cars to keep them in the mix. Not just for Sports cars but that's what does the best!

In 2003 two Corvettes finished at the top!

Randy

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Well I'm not narcissistic...I realize I have to learn the ropes...but when I took that competition driving course I just paced myself and after three days of just trying to pay attention and be smooth and not worry about being "fast" I was, in fact, one of the fastest students (unofficially---they don't want you to time yourself or others but we do of course). Of course, a 16 year old Kart champ could blow us all into the weeds, but hey I can beat him in poker, so sue me....

I suppose I could also swap an LT-1 into my Porsche 928 courtesy of a swap kit from www.renegadehybrids.com. Still by the time you buy a junkyard motor and the kit pieces and do a really really good job, you're in $5K easy or more.

But then, I'd have even more HP for NEXT year!

ultimatedriver · April 2005

Just came from the shop dyno with my 1997 325i. Also did a few dry runs. Numbers are as follows:

2677lbs with all fluids and no driver.
261whp@7390RPM
255lb-ft@4900RPM
0-60 in 4.4 seconds
0-100 in 10.5
1/4 mile in 13.0 @109.3mph

I haven't changed the displacement of this 2.5L gem as of yet because I don't want to loose the response I've attained. This chip upgrade cost me a total of around $78.00USD. Shifty, feel free to drop that LT1 in the Porsche, and we'll sort things out at the track, hehe.

starrow68 · April 2005

but when a project gets done in Roseville, I will let you know where you might find it on the track. Guy building a car for ITE, I don't know classes, but it is a 325 body stripped to metal with the fire wall moved back 6" and dropping in an LS1, slightly modified, about 350hp at the wheels. Should come in at around 2200#, which since it's so light he decided to forego big brake kits and run with left over Corvette binders, can we imagine MVette?
Like modified anything, what do you have when done? Sure it will go fast but what's to root for? Hope the vette engine shows up the M's, or hope the M suspension gives it an edge, some how I'd rather take pictures at ALMS. I hope he does well, might even get to crew some day for things like keeping track of gas cans, counting is my job, if it stays reliable and runs something like the 25hrs of Thunderhill. I doubt I'd be considered a purist, too little background really, but I do appreciate an MGB at the historics more than a tube frame with a name I recognize on something I don't. If I ever get a camera to an event I'll try to post pics of real sports cars doing what they were built for, running the track!
Randy

ultimatedriver · April 2005

I highly doubt that I'll see the MVette at any BMW CCA events this year, or the following. Great effort, though. That's a lot of work to put into a 325. Which brings about the question, why? I love Vette's just as much as I love my Bimmer (I just don't like the insurance premiums they carry).

So why not just build up a used C4 or C5? The lighter weight chassis is an understood thing, but I drive my car home from the drags with the AC on and music singing. Love that aspect of the car. Integrated rollcage is a must if you want to maintain the "sleeper" aspect of the vehicle. Please explain what's not a sports car.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Even with an LT-1 in it, a Porsche 928 is not going to get numbers like yours--but I might very well top end you if I had the guts.

What I don't like about conversions is that most of them turn the cars into "beasts". It's very hard to keep the sophistication, sound-proofing and vibration levels designed in by the factory engineers.

On some popular conversions, like say putting Chevy V8s into Jaguars, they actually bend the frames on the cars. So what have you got then? A Jaguar that sounds like a rat motor Chevy street rod with re-bar welded onto the frame....please, spare me.

But if you are racing, well, all that goes out the window.

Running flat out for 25 hours is going to take more than a stock motor, I can tell you that.....

speeds2much · April 2005

Speaking of roadsters...designman, what do you think of the design of the new Solstice? Looks stunning imo and apparently GM got the engineering right, although I'll hang onto a dose of skepticism until the reviews are published. Not a Porsche competitor, as it's more a three-season car with limited storage and a four-banger, but I'm glad to see GM showing signs of its former brilliance. A true sports car, it appears. How long has it been since GM built sports cars, besides the Corvette?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

I need to see the Solstice in "person". From the photos, I don't find it very pretty---it looks very nose-heavy. It's too fat up front. I wish they'd do something about that. But maybe in 3D I'll have a whole different perspective. What are they doing for a front bumper?

Side and back are fine, very nice, I like it mainly because it looks a lot like a Porsche 928! I was 25 years too early!

speeds2much · April 2005

I've noticed the "fat nose," esp. in some close-ups, but I think it's a function of the camera position. When viewed as a whole, the car offers fine proportions imo. Not sure about the front bumper. Can the General get away with some kind of shock-absorbing nose instead?

Pontiac will finally rope in the twenty-somethings with this car, and plenty of 40-somethings who want this for a third-fourth car I might add. Who knows, halo effect may even make Pontiacs cool again. They'd better fix the rest of their line (e.g. dreary G6 interior) if they want this to translate into significant halo-related sales though....

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

I dunno. I've had a pretty good track record of predicting when styling is "regrettable". Of course such judgment is quite subjective but I mean by "predicting"-- the prediction of mainstream tastes. I didn't think the Crossfire was so good in the rear end and thought the GTO wasn't very exciting to look at, and the XLR was just too weird for the price range. So far I think I did pretty well in spotting trouble.

Nose-heavy cars are not very successful in America. But again, I need to see a real one before I hit the alarm button. The photos are not flattering. The problem is that the nose is the same "fatness" longitudinally. It doesn't change plane or dimension and there is no grille space to create a "hollow" to relieve the eye. There's a lot of bulgey metal up front there and nothing breaks it up. I find it ugly from the front, at least in 2D photos. Look how pretty the new Miata is in comparison. What's not to like?

speeds2much · April 2005

Well, ok, the nose IS a little fat for certain, but I've trolled several Solstice message boards, as well as checked out some press reviews, and the mainstream seems to love this design as I do. We shall see. Buyers will vote with their wallets, no doubt.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Indeed, the ultimate test...the Wallet Vote. I have been wrong. I was wrong about the PT Cruiser, but I didn't call it unattractive, just weird. What I didn't know at the time was that it was actually quite a useful vehicle. I was judging it from the outside.

But I will say that the Solstice better have more virtues than its looks because I can sense a love/hate thing with it.

ultimatedriver · April 2005

I, as always, am very curious to see what the drive is going to be like. Looking at the numbers, it's gonna have to work hard to keep it's place in the market.

It has a weight/power ratio marginally better than the Miata's, yet will possess none of the lithe character of that vehicle because of it's near 2900lb curb weight.

The steering/shifter/brakes had better feel right because the competition (being the used premium convertibles you can get for the same money as a new Solstice) isn't exactly new to this game.

The powerplant's output won't matter so much as the sound it makes going down the road. There's no doubt that it'll move, but roadster lovers like to hear their cars with the top down occasionally.

Let's also hope the aftermarket doesn't take its time getting to this car. Wheel/tire/appearance/performance packages are going to do a better job of selling the car in some markets than GM could ever hope to.

GM need not be stingy with the comfort and amenities despite the promised price of entry. Consumers will be cross-shopping this with others out of sheer curiosity.

There's not going to be an excuse for GM if they foul on the Solstice because this is a ground up vehicle that they have an opportunity to get right.

ultimatedriver · April 2005

I agree with you 110% as far as the conversions are concerned, Shifty. I believe in swaps as much as the other guy, but I'm also totally against upsetting the inate balance of the original vehicle. It's a difference in a part of what I call my performance philosophy.

I recently went up against a gentleman at the drags who was running a Hartage-modified M3 with an S62 (M5- 4.9L DOHC V8 w/460bhp) under the hood. Much to his surprise, I was a few tenths of a second quicker through the traps than his car (despite his 8mph higher trap speed). He couldn't stop asking me how much I'd modified my car and how much I'd paid for the mods.

I explained to him that while the power of my vehicle was much less then his, my victory came from the better launch, lighter weight (down 300lbs from stock with light weight sound deadening to keep my sanity), and quicker shifts of my tranny. I told him to go with wider rears and stickier rubber to aid his launch as I did (an all time best of a 4.06 second 0-60 and a 12.8 second 1/4 mile, just by switching tires!).

After giving him about an hour's worth of advice, I then told him that his swap completely upset the balance of his Bimmer. He can adjust spring/shock rates to compensate for the weight, but he'd never beat me around a tight road course, and I'd give him hell around the ones with straights long enough for him to build up speed.

I commented that there are factors other than horsepower that make a sports car whole, the most important of which is the interaction with the driver. The more control a driver has over his/her car, the faster they can both go. He thanked me and I suggested a couple of sports cars with more complete driver/vehicle interfaces (used Porsche 996 GT3 or an imported Noble M12 GTO) that he could've gotten for the same money.

speeds2much · April 2005

The steering/shifter/brakes is the big question, isn't it? General Motors, the company run by spreadsheets, where product development is a matter of data, focus groups and more data...can it transform itself into a company that actually "gets it?" Whatever that elusive "IT" is? It's going to be interesting. If this sleeping giant awakes we'll all benefit.

By the way, Mark Reuss, Executive Director of GM's Performance Division, announced that the Solstice will be racing the SCCA Showroom Stock-B Class and Grand Am Cup ST-Class against the Miata and M3. Says it will compete as the '07 Solstice GT Coupe. Cool stuff....

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

Showroom Stock B is sometimes called "Spec Miata" because they OWN that class. That's gonna be tough.

ultimatedriver · April 2005

The balance needs to be ounce scale precise and the center of gravity had better be located in hell for the Solstice to have a fighting chance against the Miata, much less the M3. Those machines are benchmarks in the downshift/find your line/hold it/hit the apex perfectly/get straight/upshift/get outta there technique.

xkss · April 2005

I think it looks awesome.

It will weigh more than a Miata but costs less than it. The Solstice will costs and weigh less than both an Audi TT and a BMW Z4. Plus, a limited-slip differential is available.

starrow68 · April 2005

Having run the track with miata's that take the full straight to get up past 100mph when I'm doing 120+ at the point where I brake down to 105 into the first turn at Reno-Fernley, and they go through the turn without braking doing over 105, probably closer to 110mph, is amazing for a say 120hp car vs. my 350hp. Of couse I had to go slower through the prior turn too so they didn't have so much to overcome going down the straight. They are impressive machines in track form. All that will probably not make much difference in the public's view but I just don't see GM getting it right, again. :lemon: I hope I'm wrong.
Randy

designman · April 2005

Speeds2much yeah I find Solstice to be refreshing. It's different yet unpretentious. It also has a shock factor. I can't describe it as handsome but it has a funkiness that may enchant buyers. The lines have curvy motion but it is a characterthe front reminds me of soap suds overflowing from a broken washing machine. It has a mischievous look but is a bit stubby and perhaps a little cartoon-like. However sports cars can get away with this and it may work in its favor.

Let's not forget the interior. Very clean and straightforward. Also, it appears you can knock off a couple of cannoli and get away with it, a factor that could be a dealbreaker when comparing to Miata if only in the mind of the casual sports-car enthusiast. But as far as I am concerned it has to pay its dues. It would have to show me it could dance and be reliable before I choose it over Miata. In any event I would think sports car lovers have to root for it.

"and the center of gravity had better be located in hell" Love it.

The new Miata. I don't care for the fender flaresthey're incongruous. Mazda has this arthritic-knuckle look going that is personified by RX-8, and that the rest of the industry is hitchhiking onto. The outgoing Miata had an elemental weather-worn look to it, like a stone that has been in water for centuries. Those fenders come out of nowhere. The new Miata says to me "Well, we had a deadline and had to do SOMETHING to it, but weren't sure what that was."

Now, this is old stuff but I would like your takes on the Cien concept. In my opinion this is the design they couldn't pull off with CTS and XLR, the design that is a near-perfect study in asymmetrical angular detail. It's GM's Lambo and the legitimate styling son of Stingray. Bold attempts at styling ususally fail IMO but this was an extaordinary design effort. Lament. It will never make it to production.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

It has its merits...I like how it kicks up in back and I see what they are trying to do but this car would bomb in the mainstream market....it's about 20 years too late (please see the first Lamborghini Countach). Cadillac is sooooo yesterday, always one step behind.

Still, it LOOKS like a serious car. I like cars that look BAD (meaning good) and ARE bad, meaning good. Worse thing is to design a car that looks like a sports car and handles and runs like a minivan.

GRADE: B or B- Clean up the ghastly front end and headlights, otherwise pretty darn good....oh, get rid of the pimpy wheels, something more disk-like, dial-like thank you. Thin spokes hollow out the wheel wells, looks like a hole in there....style is about the body, not the wheels...you want to bring the eye to the car, not what it rolls on.

my two cents.

speeds2much · April 2005

Thanks for your sophisticated take on the Solstice, designman, but then again that's why you're the designman. ;o) I suppose I'm outvoted here on the nose, but in high school I dated a girl with an awkward-looking nose but...never mind.

As for the Miata, I test drove one two years ago and didn't quite get it, insofar as I just couldn't get comfortable in the darned thing. My legs were cramped and the hood seemed too high and stretched too far in front for my tastes. I know this is a classic sports car configuration, but I never had that feeling of extension-of-self that I had in a Porsche Boxster. Loved the look, though, especially the side view, where the subtle curves along the top were truly inspired, not to mention the tan leather offered, etc. One of the few Japanese cars that rose to automotive art. I like the new Miata, too, but more for the wider stance and interior design.

Cien. I like the way the V-shaped lines coverge on the C-pillar, which then takes the eye right over the face of the beast, suggesting to me a beast ready to pounce. Agree with Shiftright on the front end and headlights, though, and it's really very 70s-80s. Seeme like a Delorean that mated with a 1/2 Lambo and 1/2 Lotus Esprit Turbo. Or something like that.... :P

ultimatedriver · April 2005

The Cien was a truly remarkable break in design for Cadillac. The rear is my favorite. Clean design with an integrated rear diffuser and short overhangs make up for the busy front end (although most likely purpose-driven). Integrated tailfin LEDs with a large center stoplight are a very simple break from some of the more risque (euphemism for ugly?) efforts from the competition.

The only thing I'd change are the wheels. I totally agree that the incumbent wheels hollow out the already flared fenders. A nice deep dish design would accentuate the fender flares and allow the open-spoke rim to better show off the wonderful brakes.

Oh yeah. A bigger back window to better gaze at the magnificent 750bhp XV12 engine.

911meister · April 2005

Did any body watch the American Le Mans race last Sunday?
Corvette did pretty darn good, it won it's class. Panoz won, (although it struggled to beat Alex job's Porsche). :mad:
The new corvette is pretty impressive, I drove one! a definite improvement.
Now my question is, what was GM thinking when they made the cady xlr and the chevy truck ssr?
The xlr is a sharp looking car, but it's way overpriced; and the
SSR no comment (ugly truck).
The cien concept car would've been a better option for production.
Also, do you guys think that maybe it was a bad idea to take the Camaro off the production line, instead of just making simple improvements? (I heard a rumor of it's return later sometime)
GM has serious financial troubles right now; and I guess that answers my question.

ultimatedriver · April 2005

The camaro just wasn't making the numbers GM needed or wanted, so they axed it. I'm not sure if a comeback could upset the runaway success of the new Mustang. GM would really have to pour some dollars into the things the last Camaro fell down on.

The styling would have to be top notch. Maybe a modern take on the sexy 67-68 shape.

The interior would need to be up to today's standards in terms of NVH and panel fitment. While comfort wasn't really an issue in the last car, the interior quality fell behind big time. Maybe setting a luxury coupe as their target would be the thing to do. While the bean counters may keep certain improvements from happening, it would be pretty nice if they fell a little bit short of say a CLK320.

With those changes and the same type of knockout engine/tranny options (at least a 5 speed auto this time around) and a well sorted ride/handling setup, a new Camaro is definitely a viable option.

Coupled with a slick enough marketing campaign, GM could have a chance.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2005

The Mustang/Camaro market niche is a tough place to be. You get a lot of young, first-time buyers so you have to keep price down, but the Japanese are breathing down your neck with 4 cylinder cars that are really starting to get up and go....so you counter with V-8 power to give yourself a marketing edge. All well and good, but the car has to stop and handle now with 300HP or you're selling a death trap. But then there's this price thing.....so where do you cut the corners?

Sure, Mustang cuts corners to deliver at the price they do, but most buyers don't see (or care) where those corners are cut. With Camaros, it was painfully obvious where the corners were cut.

Even Corvette cuts corners to deliver such a fab car at the price but Corvette owners know they are buying performance--they don't want a Lexus and are not expecting a Porsche config or design. I think Corvette buyers are a more experienced lot, and of course also a much smaller audience than Camaro or Mustang.

I think the new Mustang is a great deal for the money. Okay, let's say the interior gets ratty and bolts and nuts start to unravel in 5 years....still, you only paid $25K, not $50K. And you're in a sub 6 second car!

But with Camaro, the unraveling seems to have started before the warranty ended, and it PO'd a lot of people.

Last comment: There HAS to be a reason why a car is expensive, and buyers need to see that, and there has to be a compromise when a car is inexpensive, and buyers must NOT see that, at least not right away.

Mustang and Corvette have learned this, and Camaro and Cadillac I don't think have (yet). Koreans learned it the hard way, Japanese learned it 20 years ago.

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