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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
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Not totally. The 2.0 and 2.3 Duratec is a Mazda design but built by Ford. Only the 4F27E (4 sp auto) tranny is a Mazda. The 1.8 in the Escort GT and Tracer was totally Mazda, also used in the Miata.
It's a shame that we are not going to get the Mk2 Focus over here. That is one helluva vehicle...
i didn't realize that the focus was reffered to in 'marks' like vw's are. i just thought they were generations.
In Europe they are!
I especially like the Focus RS... the current Focus has been rated the most reliable vehicle in its segment in Germany, outdoing all [non-permissible content removed] and German brands....why the heck do they not give it to us!?!?!
That's incredible for an European car (MkII Focus)! This credit must go to Mazda, as European's MkI Focus never had a chance to run on Japanese-designed powerplant (did they?).
By the way, the MkII RS was cancelled. Here's the MkIII regular Focus. Watch out, it's coming to America in the distant future, but even the MkII's overall width is so fat that the 6-ft-wide Lexus LS430 can't match.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/u/r0a9f0811324f75a7t/news/autoexpressnews/209134/ford_focus.html
the new focus is coming out soon and there have already been pics of it, and its nothing to write home about. and it certainly looks nothing like this.
the interior still looks a bit chintzy though.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/u/r0a9f0811324f75a7t/carreviews/firstdrives/209156/volkswagen_jetta.html
Aren't we getting this engine soon? A lighter-nose 4-cyl Rabbit/Jetta should handle better than the 5-cyl one.
i dont see any problems with the handling of the mkV chassis though, especially not in gti/rabbit guise; it handles well enough. the rabbit is still built in germany too, only the engine is sourced from mexcio. The jetta, however, is built there.
"all out fun to drive" is subjective, which is OK. I just don't think the Si was all that fun to drive. The Mini was the most fun, by far, in my opinion.
if the si is the most fun in YOUR OPINION, how is it also the 'best by far'?
Agreed. I went with the Mazdaspeed3; I loved the MCS JCW but I needed a larger rear seat. The Si was OK, but I already have one car that needs to be wound tight in order to make brisk progress. The GTI had the best interior but I didn't want a sunroof and the local VW dealer wasn't enthusiastic about special ordering a car. So far I love the MS3, and I'll probably keep it for a few years, or at least until BMW sticks the twin turbo diesel in the 1er...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
BUT, being a honda enthusiast (as well as a vw enthusiast), i CAN figure out MAYBE why you do enjoy it. But i also remember the days when i pledged loyalty to only one car and couldn't see the good in others. You obviously have not gotten to this point.
price and long term relaiability aside, its actually the gti that probably does everything good and not one thing amazing (except for torque everywhere on the rev range and a flawless interior), as oppossed to the si or ms3 which specialize in certian things.
again something you probably wont understand.
and no, its not irrelevant, its actually very central to understanding some of the things you type on this website.
dunno how much quicker than the original the new bunny is, but its quite a bit quicker than the model it replaces...with the same fuel economy.
The Rabbit is luxurious, as its optional ipod includes a front center armrest w/ rear-seat A/C vents behind it, same as the GTI.
Anyway, after my test drives, I've decided to own the 2.3 Focus ST. It handles way sharper, & especially its feel-ful steering makes it much more fun than the Rabbit, while still rides less nervously than even the non-turbo 2.3 Mazda 3S.
Now it's Civic's turn:
http://honda.bfi0.com/W7RH02BFC330732251441313DE05E0
& priced to match. :P
the extra hp torque would be nice though!
the bunny is pretty darn luxurious though.
creakid...i'm suprised you say that the focus st rides less 'nervously' over roads than the 3...i test drove one the other day and it was good fun, and sportier than my rabbit.
is the st the c-1 chassis? i was always under the impression that the c-1 chassis can only be found under the euro focus...
a free-er flowing exhaust and slighlty stiffer suspension...this is just a limited edition for some jdm fanboys.
the civic that would fit your description was reviewed recently on insideline: the jdm civic type r sedan :222 hp, 8500 redline, 18 lightweight wheels, and incredibly well handling suspension that actually allows this civic to lap FASTER than a stock s2k, and brembro brakes.
that is a hardcore civic.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
You nailed it. All show, with very little-if at all-extra go.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I was in St. Lucia and picked up a British car mag, forgot the name, but, on the cover, it had a comparo between the WRX, Mazda3 MPS (Speed3 over here), and Civic Type-R. It was a pretty good article. The Subi came in last, the Mazda 2nd, and the Type-R 1st. Mazda got kudos for being the fastest, and handling while the Type-R won because of handling and driving ergernomics.
the type r i was talking about avi is the jdm version. its the one with the huge brakes and 222hp engine.
some sources say 212, but the engine in the EUROPEAN hatch type r is supposed to be only 198 hp. Its essentially our si's engine, but tuned for torque and midrange. (it has more of it too rated at 142 lbs.)
it actually only has a torsion beam rear suspension; but the interior and exterior simply own our si and the jdm type r(which is just a jdm civic sedan.)
even though its technically the lesser of the two, i'd love the euro type r hatch, the sytling is amazing and its still quite a bit quicker than our si, if not quicker than the jdm r.
again, the styling alone is the selling point. on top of that, while it does lack an lsd, it comes with a stiffer suspension, noticably bigger brakes, awesome wheels and a better k20.
creakid1, "2008 Ford Focus future vehicle" #43, 19 Jan 2007 2:11 am
But once comparing the "normal" versions, the order almost always goes reverse. The C-1 Focus w/ 4-cyl beats both the Golf (Rabbit) & the Euro Civic, mainly b/c the Euro Civic's ride sucks & neither can match Focus' steering feel.
Yeah, but I'm sure the 30th Edition is, per some Brit magazine who found it too uncomfortable for British roads.
"creakid...i'm suprised you say that the focus st rides less 'nervously' over roads than the 3...i test drove one the other day and it was good fun, and sportier than my rabbit."
I only drove the '04 Mazda3's, so I don't know if its quick-rebound ride has changed or not. But the Focus ST has retuned the suspension after the '05 & no longer using the SVT shocks. No wonder Consumer Reports mentioned how comfortably the '06 ST rides.
"is the st the c-1 chassis? i was always under the impression that the c-1 chassis can only be found under the euro focus..."
Some Brit magazine also found the old BMW E36 3-series more fun than the E46 3-series mainly due to the more lively steering feel & more playful oversteer from the multi-links. So even an E36 w/ std suspension is still more fun than an E46 w/ the less comfy sport suspension.
The same goes to the old C-170 Focus I vs the C-1 Focus II. The only thing wrong w/ the U.S.-spec is the over assisted steering on all but the discontinued SVT model. But I know how to fix that by tapping into the pwr-steering wires. I can also have this cheaply equipped car sound insulated by Dynamat to feel more luxurious.
British Top Gear said:
comp386, "2008 Ford Focus future vehicle" #47, 19 Jan 2007 10:14 am
In other words, the old C-170 Focus I beats the Mazda3 & the Golf V.
It also beats its own new version in fun but not ride/handling compromise (see post#67):
creakid1, "Ford Focus 2005 release date" #67, 25 Dec 2004 12:39 pm
That's right, you don't want to give up a lively tail if the high-tech Control Blade design can harness it w/in a predictable level.
if the focus or mazda 3 accomplished what they do using a torsion beam, than i'm sure you wouldn't complain. there is no denying the purity of the type r philosophy.
plus creakid, you haven't driven the type r have you? i'd say the brits are pretty savvy on their hatches...they know what they are doing.
i was under the impression that that 3 here in states was the only offering with the control blades....so your saying that even your focus st has them?
but then again, you and top gear also think that regardless of the suspension, this older focus is more 'fun'? ok i get that. i'm just trying to confirm that this is what you are saying! because you mentioned it 'beating' the 'new' version, whereas i thought the c-1 was kinda oldish and not anything 'new'.
i know the differences now, so i guess the question i have is if the mk1focus in europe is the same suspension as the focus st we have here, because the wikipedia article on the american focus that i just finished reading didn't identify the chassis codes on the american focuses, just the euro ones.
having said that, compared to the older euro focus AND the new c-1, most euro guys, including top gear, still think that the rabbit feels the nicest with regards to ride comfort, while stil having a sporty edge, even if its not as big as the old focus or c-1. so yeah, you were right. the rabbit does kinda ride like a luxury car.
According to Brit magazines, the better Civic Europeans dream of is the multi-link-rear sport sedan privately imported from Japan!
MkV's Control Blades really improved the MkIV GTI.
Read post #44 & #45:
creakid1, "Ford Focus 2005 release date" #44, 6 Oct 2004 2:56 pm
Even today, VW never really duplicated the liveliness of the original MkI GTI, which has torsion-beam. But again, it's the steering that shines, & having multi-link rear on the MkI Rabbit is likely to make it even better.
So far, I've collected a non-sport (springs/swaybar modified to match the LX sedan purely for comfort!) '00 Civic hatch, which sucks in steering feel & ratio, but its multi-link Double Wishbones all around was amazing when showing how evenly all 4 wheels drifted the same time! I doubt if the new Euro Civic can achieve such balanced drifting talent, or just having this level of road holding w/o hurting the ride comfort.
I also collected an '84 MkI Jetta Wolfsburg (Recaro front seats) coupe & added GTI swaybars. Repairs have been troublesome, but, besides the fun manual steering, the rear seat was very comfy & cushes road shocks uncannily well!
Last year, I collected the latest E36 -- '99 328is. Looking forward to power-wag its tail by adding LSD.
My latest collection is of course, the just-discontinued '07 Focus ST w/ a big 4-cyl & quick steering ratio, & corners way sharper & w/ less front-end plow than my 6-cyl BMW.
I'm still keeping my twin-cam '90 Protege LX w/ TTL suspension, which does scary donuts all the time, especially in the rain. But its steering feel is so good & the ratio is quick.
Only our SVT had identical setting as their ST170. Our ST sedan also had the same suspension but w/o the lowered springs.
Euro suspension settings vary from std to Ghia to ST170 to RS. Lately, ours starts from S/SE (no rear swaybar) to SES to ST. Back around '02, our Street Edition sedan/wagon (comes in bright yellow, red or blue) had Euro-setting suspension. I test drove it, & it felt pretty firm -- probaby the Euro Ghia setting. I ordered one but then cancelled it, b/c the Advance Track (stability program) was only available on the softly sprung ZTS.
The old-design ligher-body C-170 has no subframes, so the car feels more direct to handle but noisier than the C-1. By the way, the Control Blade is just a cost-effective way to duplicate the expensive multi-link found in the early-'90's MkI Mondeo wagon.
For those of you not familiar w/ C-1's (& C-170's) original ancestor Mondeo wagon, here's a recent ST220 sedan version of it:
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/Galleries/w24_GalleriesModelPicDisplay/0,,675- - - - - - - - - - - - -13649,00.html
I'm sure it looks very familiar
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/Galleries/w24_GalleriesModelCompNavIndex/0,,6- - - - - - - - - - - 75,00.html
& the 1st mass-produced C-1 Focus sedan started in Taiwan since late '04:
http://roadtest.u-car.com.tw/roadtest-detail.asp?rid=61
Scroll down & see another interesting corporate face from a Foreign-market Ford. Wow, like the Golf V, it even has rear A/C ducts.
No wonder I don't think the exterior of my '07 C-170 U.S. Focus ST looks outdated :P
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/longtermtests/209883/volkswagen_golf.htm- - - - - - - - l
This engine is finally coming to America along w/ the new body:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/spyshots/209759/volkswagen_golf.html
The bulky, heavy, weak low-end, gritty-sounding & thirsty 2.5 5-cyl is finally dead. So the output of your next std Rabbit can be tuned to "Edition 30" level? & everyone of them can now ride on DSG. I wonder what's gonna happen to the 4-link Control Blade rear suspension when they simplify it this time.
which ones? all the recent ones i have read are NOT talking about the jdm type r (the sedan you mentioned) but about the torsion-beamed hatch that is exclusive to them. (europe.)
i think the type r from japan would fare horrible in europe, its suspension is tuned way to much for track use to be a daily driver for most.
man! weak low end? what are you talking about!? thats the problem with the 2.5: its MOSTLY low end!
I dunno about the rabbit being tuned to edition 30 levels...where on this report does it say that? and i didn't see where they said they would simplify the control blades...they are just tweaking them.
and granted, this is a uk website: the 2.5 engine is nonexistant there, so we don't know what vw of america has in store for us yet, even though i wouldn't mind some different engine choices. I just hope the base price doesn't go up, the interior retains its luxury (thoug i feel that this is going to be the first thing to go, it'll still be nice, about as nice as mazda or honda, but it may not be slightly superior like it is now. And they better keep the rabbit nameplate!)
i didn't find any real proof or insinuation that the 1.4 is coming to the US. IT may make the gti irrelevant!
to top it off, the mk VI looks only very slightly different than the mkV; and its hard to tell with all the coverings. But i only detect slight refreshings of the body, a bit more muscular. the biggest changes will be under the hood and in how its produced.
My bad. I only read about the difference b/t VW's 2.3 5-cyl & 1.8 4-cyl turbo from British "CAR" when the V5 was first available more than a few years ago. They said the V5 doesn't cost less, has weaker low-end torque but no more pk hp, consumes more fuel & the nature of the 5-cyl also sounds less smooth. So the only reason they can think of for this V5 to exist is that the 1.8 turbo's continueous max-torque produces a constant accelerating rate along w/ a non-music-like unchanging sound throughout the rev range. This is simply boring & therefore feels less satisfying than an engine w/ rise-&-fall torque curve that give you a sweet spot. In other words, the 1.8 turbo is less challenging & therefore less "fun" in a way.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/59942/volkswagen_golf.html
"The result is 168bhp - about the same as the old 2.3-litre V5."
There's no doubt that the 2.5 has much more low end than the 2.3, as both have similar max peak hp. Just like the 2.8 in my BMW 328is has about the same peak hp as the weaker-low-end 2.5 in the 325i.
But, compare the low0end of the 2.5 5-cyl to this mighty "tractor"- "big-rig"- "locomotive"-like double-charged 4-cyl monster... I don't know:
http://www.motorbar.co.uk/vwgolf14gt.htm
"When you look at the 'paper' specification and performance figures
for VW's new 1.4-litre TSI dual-charged petrol engine and see it is
more powerful, faster, more fuel efficient and less polluting than the relatively-new 2.0-litre FSI direct injection petrol engine, it's hard
to believe what you're reading can be possible.
But, I can assure you, it most certainly is. At last, a petrol engine which drives like a diesel but is quieter although not yet quite as frugal with fuel. Turn the ignition key and the new 1.4-litre unit springs into life — no diesel rattle or clatter. Slip it into first gear and accelerate. Change up to second, third, fourth and so on and there is a huge amount of power. And, more importantly, torque — making the car easy to drive at slow speeds in town or in traffic. On the open road, thanks to supercharger and turbocharger power or a mixing of both, the engine is really responsive and strong during acceleration. There are no steps between these boosted stages. It is a petrol unit, but
it's just like driving a diesel. Remarkable."
"I dunno about the rabbit being tuned to edition 30 levels...where on this report does it say that?"
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/59942/volkswagen_golf.html
"Installed in the new Golf GT, it gives 0-60mph in less than eight seconds, plus 39.2mpg economy and impressive CO2 emissions of 173g/km. But headline figures aside, the most striking aspect is the TSI's performance. Put simply, it feels like a large, lusty engine, with lots of punch and power right up to 6,500rpm."
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/longtermtests/209883/volkswagen_golf.htm- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - l
"Power has increased to 230bhp – that’s the same as the Edition 30"
Well, it's the same 1.4 super-&-turbo.
"and i didn't see where they said they would simplify the control blades...they are just tweaking them."
It was another British article that mentioned about "simplifying it" for cost-cutting purpose. & the word "tweaking" simply sounds better. We'll see.
The Focus has expensive suspension. The Golf/Rabbit MkIV has expensive interior. The MkV had both expensive interior & suspension. & the MkVI is just a cheaper-built of the MkV? Well, at least they said they will improve the steering ("feel" perhaps?). You know, all it takes for the Rabbit to beat the Focus (& rest of the world) is the steering feel & reliability!
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/59942/volkswagen_golf.html
"The result is a vehicle that rides and handles well. A Focus is sharper, but Ford doesn't yet have a 'super-turbo' engine. Not even James Bond has one of those."
Nah, I'll pass this "James Bond-ish" high-tech engine 'cause the Focus is still a sharper drive, especially when there's an U.S.-only Mazda-developed 2.3 normally-aspirated meaty 4-cyl on tap
Here's why. This high-tech VW engine is far from perfect. Otherwise, BMW's 3.0 6-cyl nearly-lag-free turbo wouldn't be such a big deal:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Auto_News/Euro_Drive_VWs_Golf_TS- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I.S173.A11836.html?pg=2
"You have to be very deliberate in your requests for power (a serious bootful of gas is needed to convince the engine of your desire for a rapid increase forward motion) at which point the Golf GT (maybe a future Rabbit for you Yanks?) jumps to its feet takes off like a startled, er, bunny. It's the most on/off engine I've ever encountered, which is ironic when you consider that the whole point of adding a supercharger was to reduce turbo lag and make it feel more urgent."
"i didn't find any real proof or insinuation that the 1.4 is coming to the US. IT may make the gti irrelevant!"
Well, maybe VW wants to take time to tune the throttle for a few years before introducing it to a big & sensitive/picky market like the U.S. w/o ruining its image again. Same reason why they changed the 2.3 V5 to 2.5 for the U.S.
Just remember, even the 2.0 8v in the non-GTI/GLI MkIV also got replaced by the Audi-designed 1.8 20v turbo gradually before the MkV came out. How about this? It'd be fun if I bet you that by the time the MkVI U.S.-spec Rabbit/Jetta comes out, a super-&-turbo 4-cyl will become the std engine. & people won't complain about its non-GTI-like mpg, either :P
i really wouldn't mind the 1.4 tsi at all, i just didn't know how vw would position it...i hope it will be reliable!
the new edmunds article comparing the bmw m3 and some competitors included a gti edition 30...they said it was great and that its going to become the standard engine in the gti when the mkVI comes out, so if thats the case, butting the 1.4 tsi in the rabbit would makes sense.
In my experience with VW, they are not lemons, but simply cars with parts that break down semi-regularly.
As a Honda owner who has watched his dad burned by Chrysler twice, I still have to say that making a comment like that sure seems inflammatory, like you are looking for a fight.
You won't find it from me, since I dont completely disagree, but c'mon, 1000 lemons from Dodge for every 1 Honda lemon? That's just major exaggeration.
If you lease a made-in-Germany Rabbit for 3 yrs, then you might only have to deal w/ around one unscheduled break down, which isn't too bad consider how this little bunny pampers you every single day w/ 1st-class ride comfort & decent quietness all wrapped in an easy-to-park exterior dimension that'll find you parking spaces easily. I don't recall the bulky '95-99 Toyota Avalon w/ low-tech suspension riding this comfortably!