Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si



  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    wonder if your '96 Accord is not made in Japan. My '98 made-in-California Corolla LE had a low-quality-plastic vent outlet that cracked, so I had to hurried back into this country before the warranty expired.

    Japanese cars from the 80's and 90's had pretty low rent plastic controls, regardless if they were made in Japan or not. That was a big knock on them. My HVAC controls broke on my '91 Toyota Celica, '91 Honda Accord, and '98 Mitsu Eclipse.

    The Corolla's from that time period too were not much on the inside, or out. Actually, neither was anything in that class that came from Japan.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    the remedial summer school bit made me laugh! :)

    but in all honesty blueguy, i do think you are being a bit harsh. does it have something to do with being a bmw/mini owner? maybe. even i got nitpicky with our fit after moving down from the rabbit.

    its funny to note that even the 3 series has those same scratch prone doors like the new civic.

    But all in all, the civic has a very nice interior, and i'm with grad on the electronic knobs point. Much nicer by far!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    That's what it comes down to. Shrug.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "According to Brit magazines, the better Civic Europeans dream of is the multi-link-rear sport sedan privately imported from Japan!"

    "which ones? all the recent ones i have read are NOT talking about the jdm type r (the sedan you mentioned) but about the torsion-beamed hatch that is exclusive to them. (europe.)

    i think the type r from japan would fare horrible in europe, its suspension is tuned way to much for track use to be a daily driver for most."

    This one: :P
    "We were bitterly disappointed to discover that the new (Euro) Civic Type-R isn’t as polished as the Golf GTI..."

    "The saloon bodyshell has been made lighter yet more rigid, with extensive use of aluminium, and adhesive bonding instead of welds. As a result the much bigger ’shell tips the scales just 1.8kg heavier than the Integra’s, yet is 50 per cent more rigid.

    Once on the move this sense of rigidity is all- pervading. There’s no sneeze-factor in the steering, no slouch in the suspension or slop in the brake pedal, and certainly no squidge in the Bridgestone RE070s’ sidewalls. Consequently your slightest twitch is translated into immediate response. It’s an uncompromising car with a firm, physical ride, yet the damping is well controlled and it copes well with mid-corner bumps.

    Traction is excellent thanks to the standard helical limited-slip differential, and there’s only the slightest hint of wheelspin on a dry road, even over the sharp-edged crests along our test route in south Wales."

    "...includes all import costs...That’s around £5000 more than the UK Civic Type-R, but such is the gulf between the watered-down experience offered by the hatchback and the full-strength fury of the saloon there’s little sense in making a direct comparison. Perhaps you’d be better looking upon this import-only Civic as a four-door NSX-R, for it possesses much of the supercar’s spirit."

    "...superior in almost every other way"

    "A limited-slip differential, absent from the European Type R, sends more torque to the outer wheel in a corner..."

    "Another welcome revision is the use of double-wishbone rear suspension, improving ride quality and handling. This is in addition to a 50 per cent boost in body rigidity. As a result, the four-door Type R is a joy to drive. Its ride is firm but comfortable, and turn-in is exquisite, with heaps of grip and the nose never pushing wide."

    "the £11,900 price tag undercuts the inferior UK model by a massive £5,715."
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Anyone see that the 2008 Mugen Si will start at over $29,000!! LMAO! Who's gonna pay for that?!?!?
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    Those Acura TSX drivers who ran out of ways to trim down its heavier-than-Accord curb weight :D
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    A 200hp Civic with a body kit, and slightly upgraded suspension that says "Mugen" on it for $29,000? Please. Your better off buying an S2000 leftover with rebates and dealer discount.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    The latest edition of Consumer Reports lists 2 VW's. The Passat (V6) no longer recommended because of worse reliability. The VW GTI - enough data to say they're unreliable. VW Strikes again. And these are made in Germany. :lemon:
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032


    "But the suspension isn’t that supple. The BMW gets pitched around on any surface that’s less than perfect, so the steering requires constant correction, which limits your confidence in the car. It doesn’t truly come alive – instead, it feels slightly numb and disinterested."

    "...not as involving as the TT, with constant movement from the suspension and steering which is lacking in feedback."

    VW - ml

    "Plus, the Golf is light to drive, easy to see out of and well laid out inside, all of which helps to make it effortless to live with.

    So can it really be as exciting to drive? In a word, yes. The suspension is every bit as well set up as the Audi’s, delivering a near-perfect blend of ride comfort and handling ability. The steering wheel isn’t only great to hold, but provides more detailed feedback than the BMW’s. And although the front-drive layout means the Golf doesn’t put its power down as well as its rivals, it’s superbly balanced, responsive and entertaining."

    "...better body control than BMW"


    "The trouble is, there is no turbo to beef up mid-range torque, so its in-gear times weren’t as good as the Golf’s...What lets it down is the transmission, which doesn’t like low speeds. It’s jerky, then surges forward suddenly as the clutch bites. The system isn’t as mechanically involving as a manual box, either. Yet once up and running, the S tronic is magnificent – as a passenger, the only way to detect shifts is to watch the driver’s fingers pull the paddles or listen to the powerplant."

    Then down shift then, if you want more burst & still retain smoothness.

    "It’s sharp and inspires confidence. The steering is better than the BMW’s, and helped by the fact it’s lower to the ground. The Audi feels more planted and secure on the road. It turns in hard, grips well and is more informative than the 135i and Golf. We’d specify the £1,150 optional Magnetic Dampers, though. They work brilliantly, not only making the TT even more dynamic to drive, but boosting absorbency in the softer setting. Without them, the ride is not as relaxing as it could be."
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    vs Rogue's twin (Quashqai) vs Peugeot's own 308

    The C-1 Focus matched the Civic for best handling but provides better ride! & it's the only one in this group not being criticized for lack of steering feel!

    C-1 Focus:
    "Out on the road, the Ford feels the most relaxing to drive, thanks to the engine’s fuss-free nature – it just seems to get on with the job of transporting you from A to B as easily as possible. Yet there’s much more to the car than this. The model has always been renowned for its driving dynamics, and the new version is no exception.

    This all-round ability is what makes the Focus such a great family choice. The blend of ride and handling is a prime example. It’s not quite as firm as the Honda and deals better with potholes, but it’s just as focused and balanced through corners. Perfectly weighted steering and a crisp gearshift add to the package."

    Civic hatch:
    "In terms of handling, there’s little to choose between the Honda and Ford. Both are incredibly composed and enjoyable, whether eating up motorway miles or tackling country lanes."

    -: some drivers find the speedometer is obscured by the wheel; steering is a little short on feedback."

    "There are few criticisms of the car’s handling. The steering lacks feel, yet it’s fluid and direct, allowing for precise turn-in. Body control is taut – impressively so, given the Nissan’s tall ride height. As a result, the Qashqai is agile and reassuring."

    "As with its opponents, the 308 provides a decent balance of ride and handling. But it doesn’t quite grip as well as the Focus or Civic, and although the steering is meaty, it lacks feedback. The Peugeot is composed through corners, yet the dampers can be a little jittery over rough surfaces, and it’s not as engaging to drive as its rivals. It is smooth and refined – a reading of 69dB at 70mph is much quieter than the Focus’s 72dB – but the 308 doesn’t have much character or charm."

    At similar price, Civic's more equipment, room & mpg edges the C-1 Focus as the winner in this ECONOMY car test here. I'm sure all the cheapskates will agree. :P - - ml
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 15,753
    Problem is, Honda doesn't send the Civic three door over here, and I wanted a hatch(the same reason I passed on the 1 Series). The Civic Type R would have been on my short list- no question:


    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    This Europe-only Civic hatch is indeed handsome & cool looking! Just like the original Scirocco/Corrado. But like those old VW's, it's tiny & only got torsion-beam rear suspension.

    While today's Scirocco is heading into the direction of Civic by having multilink rear suspension & (try to?) look like the '92-95 Civic hatch, which even has multilink in the front as well!
    click the 4th picture

    But by today's standard around here, the Focus, Mazda3, Rabbit/GTI, Civic, Impreza, & even top-end Corolla all have multilink rear, just like Mini & BMW.

    More likely, this Euro hatch Civic belongs to the little B-class cars w/ torsion-beam rear:

    Ford Verve/Fiesta
    Mazda2 g=2&idi=12
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    w/ more cylinder & 280hp:

    C-1 platform
    "Striking details include flared wheelarches, giving the RS a wider track for better high-speed stability."

    "But the best news is that the new suspension settings and redesigned back axle, plus the chassis’s lower centre of gravity, all help make the Scirocco even better to drive than the Golf GTI. The wider track gives it greater grip and cornering composure, and although there is some body roll, it’s well contained.

    Overall, the Scirocco feels more agile and responsive than the GTI, while retaining that car’s sense of enthusiasm. There’s even the option of different driving modes. The Adaptive Chassis Control set-up allows you to select Comfort, Normal or Sport settings, which adjust not only the stiffness of the dampers, but also the steering weight and"
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Not really the right thread for this comparo??
  • 08speed308speed3 Member Posts: 2
    LOL I live in Columbus and I'll race you, 08' speed 3 and yeah you can bring an SI to boot. I dont get what you all are talking about, the VW and SI are both slow as well as the speed, and if you spend enough money we all know that you can make a turd fly but if you really want to fast car try a V-8 that puts down 500+ hp, and have an SI, VW, or MSP3 as a daily car...

    Oh Civics Suck, and look like crap....
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 15,753
    You must be a regular from Mazda247...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    You must be a regular from Mazda247...


    Typical childish stuff you commonly see there. Edmunds is not the place for that type of talk.
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    Can't look any worse than the new MS3 and the stupid grin Mazda gave it.

    Have you motor mounts broken yet?
  • goosegoose Member Posts: 77
    Well I have a 2008 Civic EX and driven the 2010 Mazda 3 5 door GT. I know the Si is more "fun" than my Civic however primary difference is engine and tighter suspension. The rest is the same as my Civic such as interior design, materials, noise level and reliability. I have also driven the 2010 Accord Coupe, 2009 Lexus IS 250, Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6, Acura TSX and TL. All within the last 6 months. The 2010 Mazda 3 is a definite upgrade from the Civic. However the Mazdaspeed 3 is the direct competitor against the Si. If you want kid like driving dynamics then the Honda product is fine. If you're looking for an upgrade but still want to stay under $27K and get good MPG then the Mazda 3 is a better vehicle. The whole package is more mature such as interior layout, instrumentation design, stereo option, exterior lighting and improved sound dampening. It has options that the Civic doesn't even offer. No i don't want the local youth training center (stereo shop) modifying my car either. The only issue is getting past that Mazda 3 grin. But I wont buy anther Civic. I'm over it. If its not the grinning car then I'll pay more and get a Accord Coupe or take my chances with a 2010 VW GTI.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Have you motor mounts broken yet?

    Common...a select few early 2007's were effected

    Should I bring up the early transmission problems and quality control issues with the SI? Or is that all of a sudden unfair because it speaks badly about Honda?
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    Or Honda's bad 5-speed autos. Of course, I'd counter with Mazda's overall lesser reputation and the ungodly oil consumption of the earliest renesis engines and their currently miserable oil consumption. I also seem to recall Three owners having A/C issues.
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    both companies have had problems.

    mazda may have a lesser reputation with reliablity, but honda has a lesser reputation on sportiness. (something that they seem to be trying to do away with. the civic is nice, some semblance of sportiness, and the fit is a blast, but aside from the si and the fit, hondas in general seem to have lost the sporty touch they once had.) i wonder what the next civic will bring to the table...
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    I didn't get the Mazda on account of the smily face either. I'm getting the GTI only because to me it has the best realiability than the Jetta,Golf and Rabbit.
    It's too bad Acura dropped the RSX S model. Don't compare the SI civic to the RSX Type S a much better built and comfortable ride. I had one and it was bullit proof.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    yup, Mazda caught Honda with the 3 model.Civic can't compete with a Mazda 3.
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    I'm getting the GTI only because to me it has the best realiability than the Jetta,Golf and Rabbit.

    actually, the GTI, while much better than the mkIV gti's, has had the worst reliability of all the cars you just mentioned. the rabbit has enjoyed the best.

    It's too bad Acura dropped the RSX S model. Don't compare the SI civic to the RSX Type S a much better built and comfortable ride. I had one and it was bullit proof.

    do you have proof it was 'built' better? the rsx was nice, but the reason they dropped it was becuase it didnt empart a premium feel, and the leather offered was anything but premium. not to mention that when the new si came out, it was so close in price, the only real thing the rsx offered over the si WAS leather seating.(and maybe better steering feel.)

    and it didnt have a limted slip differential like the new si does. (though i like the seats in the non leather rsx better.)

    but you do get more car with the civic si than you do with the rsx-s.
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    The Si competes just fine with the Three; what it can't compete against is the MS3.
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    The next Si is supposed to bring 215hp to the table. I hope it doesn't bring Honda's recent atrocious styling too.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    The SI isn't a HB the RSX was.I need a HB.You can't go to home depot w/SI can you?If so I'd buy one.
    I was lookining at a Scion XD because you can trick it out and not void the warranty.
    However, no sunroof and I'd have to switch out or modify front seats for them to be heated. My best bet is to buy a gas Golf 3 dr and put an armrest in it.Volkswagon Golf is not that bad on price,but the TDI Golf I can get with s/r heated seats,manual for $24k and I think thats too much. Diesal fuel here is.$64 a gallon more than gas.
    Also, if something goes like a fuel pump in a diesal,I'd be out alot of bucks.VW isn't known for that good quality to gamble on them.The extended warranty you have to haggle down from 2k.
    Also, the dealers I've been to don't seem to want to deal right now. This economy is still down and maybe next spring or summer we will see some incentives.
    Well, have a good day. :confuse:
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    i 'kinda' understand your hatchback argument....if the hatchback on the rsx was reasonably big, but its not that big. you could get an si sedan and fit just as much in the much larger trunk.

    but if you only want a two door, well then yea i see your point.

    the golf tdi is on a much different mission...and it offers torque that neither honda could supply unless you were turbo/supercharging it.

    diesel would be more expensive yes...but you would be looking at regular 500 mile tanks.

    and the interior? pfftt! the golf knows no competiton. (if stuff like that is important to you,which i'm assuming it is since you listed the acuras interior as being 'nicer' than the si.)
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    if they make it look like the euro civic hatch i'll be happy.

    215hp? where did you hear about this from? 215 from the current k20?

    great, that means it will have only a couple more lb-ft of torque.

    and that means it will have to have AMAZING handling to make up for it, or weigh nothing.

    NOW...if thats 215hp from a tsx sourced k24 four cylinder, there is at least 165lb-ft of twist in that motor, and if they keep weight about the same/less, it may give the si the edge it needs to keep up.
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    Why do you need heated cloth seats? Leather I could understand.

    The Si sedan back seat folds down, but it won't load to the ceiling like a hatchback will. I don't like using my car like a truck, but I did own Integras for over ten years and it helped moving things from college and grad school.

    Diesels are 30% more fuel efficient, so is 64 cents more/gal. a 30% difference over gas? Here it is within a quarter between regular and diesel and has been within a nickel a couple months ago; last year it cost more than premium.
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    TOV has it posted and it won't be a euro hatch (thank god), but a sedan (probably a coupe, maybe a hatch of the same platform). I expect it will be a K-series, but don't know the displacement and it might be direct injection or other new technology. This is a rumor from someone at an outside source that makes components for Honda. It will be 2011 (2012 model year) before it rolls out, as Honda wants another year out of the current platform.
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    ah ok i see.

    wow so the current civic is going for a 6 year run huh? interesting.

    i just hope it has some torque.

    dont like the euro civic eh? lol, i personally like when honda is a bit daring.

    they honestly need to go back to their roots the way VW did, i guess they dont because the ep3 left such a bad taste in everyones mouth. thanks for the info though cz75, i'll check out TOV.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032

    The new Euro Civic looks energetic & handsome. W/o looking at its badge, you'd think its the modern version of the old Scirocco/Corrado, while the re-borned Scirocco today looks wimpy/dumpy & not too different from the old '92 Civic. LOL

    See post #1349

    But no matter how handsome it is, this Euro Civic w/ simple strut-front/beam-rear suspension (just like the Fit) makes me proud b/c my '2000 Civc hatch w/ double-wishbone suspension FRONT & BACK & 103" wheelbase (w/ customized pwr windows/locks/mirrors, DVD/navigation, Monaco driver seat, front sway bar, softer springs from LX sedan, etc.) now feels like the most high-tech tiny car in world!

    Even today's Mazda3, which does not have multilink front suspension, is heavy & bulky like a barge by comparison :P
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    my '2000 Civc hatch w/ double-wishbone suspension FRONT & BACK & 103" wheelbase (w/ customized pwr windows/locks/mirrors, DVD/navigation, Monaco driver seat, front sway bar, softer springs from LX sedan, etc.) now feels like the most high-tech tiny car in world!

    I don't know if you were trying to be sarcastic or not. But, IIRC, that gen of Civic Si was not a hatch. Not here in the US anyway...

    Even today's Mazda3, which does not have multilink front suspension, is heavy & bulky like a barge by comparison

    Todays Mazda3 is bigger then many cars from 10 years ago. C'mon..gimme a break.

    The Mazda3 does have multilink rear though and has best in class handling. That is what matters. Not what hit the streets 10 years ago.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    All Civic's lost the front Double Wishbones after 2000. That cool-looking current-generation Euro-market Civic hatch also lost the rear multi-links/DW, unlike the notchback we're getting.

    My point is that cars w/ small-exterior don't come w/ high-tech multi-link/DW suspension ALL AROUND anymore.

    Nevertheless, I still hate the slow-&numb steering of my "high-tech" 2000 Civic. That's why, despite living w/ dangerously-high level of oversteer, I still can't get rid of my '90 Protege twincam, which steers so deliciously that none of you modern-car owners can imagine.

    I am so addicted to steering feel that I even rescued an old MkI '84 Jetta w/ manual steering from going to the junkyard.

    The pre-2006 Miata also steers great, but I want elastic long-travel comfy suspension as well.

    I remember test driving a comfy-riding MkV Rabbit, but its electric pwr steering was disastrous when comes to steering feel.

    W/o great steering feel, I don't see what's so fun about driving, no matter how high the road holding is.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Nevertheless, I still hate the slow-&numb steering


    I still can't get rid of my '90 Protege twincam, which steers so deliciously that none of you modern-car owners can imagine

    My '05 Mazda6 has great steering feel as well. No electric assist. The Mazdaspeed3 has a more weighty feeling then the regular Mazda3. I don't like floaty steering systems.
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    actually, as far as eletric systems go, ony the fit and mazda 3 really have this down, but the rabbit is not as terrible as you make it seem. all the other systems i have driven, including a civic hybrid and prius were terrible. while not as good as the 3 or fit, the rabbits was not bad at all, and probably had more to do with the fact that the steering ratio is not as quick.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    The old Mazda3 used to have electro-hydraulic. Did the new version switch to fully electric?

    Nevertheless, the MkVI GTI has improved steering feel over the MkV:

    "Spot on – although it takes me a while to work my way up to that level. The new GTI is fearfully competent. Does that concern you? It should. True, the last Golf was not a raw, trembling ball of energy either, settling for being richly satisfying instead, but in the new one you really have to go looking for entertainment. Cruise around and the stunning damping composure means the car is always too much in control, too able. So you hurl it into a tight-ish third-gear corner. Aha… now we’re talking. Now the steering is more alert, now you can feel what’s going on, now the front end sharpens up a treat. Now it’s a GTI.

    It’s a neat trick, a sudden sense of layers pulled back, true character revealed, but it’s also frustrating knowing how hard you have to drive it to have fun."

    The Scirocco uses Passat's rear suspension just like the Control Blades originally from the Focus/Mazda3.

    Not sure if the MkV GTI switched away from Control Blades on the MkVI. Does any body know?

    The whole point is that, compare to the MkV GTI, the MkVI GTI is "too much in control, too able" so "it’s also frustrating knowing how hard you have to drive it to have fun."

    Now w/ optional Adaptive Chassis Control that changes the damper setting under different situations, no wonder it can handle more competently w/o making the overall ride quality any harder.

    My recommendation is choosing the MkVI Rabbit w/ Adaptive Chassis Control (hopefully will be available here eventually) over the MkV GTI, so you can handle nearly as well as the MkV GTI while still rides like a limo :P
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    hmmm avi would be a better candidate to answer that one. the steering on the mkV's was elctro-mechanical.

    i dunno if i would find a car thats 'too' in control a terrible thing, but its nice to know they made the steering better.

    adaptive chassis control is not listed as anything that will even be available on either the gti or golf, so no limo like shenanigans.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    The Adaptive Chassis Control comes w/ 3 different settings -- firm, medium & soft.

    At least in Europe, the suspension of the Golf w/o the ACC option doesn't come in the soft setting. So you have to chip out enough $ to buy the ACC in order to ride like a limo. These days, I noticed this similar strategy in the US, where the lowest-price C-class Mercedes is forced to include the lowered sport suspension.

    That's right, only the rich deserve to ride in a limo.

    I remembered test driving all the Mazda cars at the 2004 or 2005 Mazda Rev It Up event. None had great steering feel except the Miata. The Mazda6 6-cyl rode & handled worse than the Mazda6 4-cyl. The RX-8 rode limo soft!

    Later, I test drove more RX-8's at the dealers & found only the base model w/ soft suspension & 16" wheels did ride like a limo while the handling was still 'too' in control for me to explore the limit. So, yes, it's a terrible thing. LOL I'd rather drift the '05 Miata w/ LSD (limited-slip differential) all day long!

    So I ended up picking up a Focus ST 2.3 w/ pure hydraulic steering, but neither its ride comfort nor the road holding can match the base RX-8, which unfortunately fishtailed badly in the rain due to RWD & un-availability of stability control!
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