"I know this discussion now involves only the GTI, MS3 and Civic SI, but why do we not even mention the WRX?"
I actually mentioned the WRX as being a better choice for a racer compared with the cars that are discussed in this thread(especially Mazda who aims more in that direction). But as an every day driver is really lousy in my opinion. It's noisy, has the biggest turbo lag I've seen in a modern car, really bad gas mileage, outdated looks inside and outside, steering that feels loose(I'm surprised that the tight ratio of the GTI steering didn't impress you). On the plus side the car can take beating like no other(except the STI). Good car if in need of 4 wheel traction and proving everybody(figuratively speaking) on the street that you are faster.
I think the WRX isn't listed expressly because it's AWD. And thus not really in the same league as the players of this forum.
WRX is fun. I found the AWD system intrusive but I find all AWD systems to be intrusive.
My bro-in-law's little brother has a WRX that he modded to the high heavens. Bought it in 2002 and that thing is still running even though he drives it like a total fool. The durability of those cars is beyond reproach.
"Do you think, maybe, just maybe Honda's lack of a viable, accepted diesel in Europe might be holding them back?"
Honda is seen as a fairly cheap brand with poor resale value in Europe. The way people look at Hyundai here is the way people look at Honda there. It's not a bad car, it's reliable but you don't want to be stuck with one. That's the reason they don't sell so well. Like I said before, I don't believe European Hondas (Acuras here)are bad cars, but they just don't stand out with anything, not even their transmissions...
"So if I follow your line of thinking Europeans prefer an unreliable car that has a crappy transmission(in your opinion, VW) over a super reliable car that also has the best transmission out there(in your opinion, Honda). And 90% percent of them drive stick."
The fallacy here is the assumption that since Europeans prefer stick shifts to automatics that Europe must be a continent full of enthusists who appreciate a fine transmission.
The reality is somewhat different.
Europe has exceedingly high gas prices. Fuel economy counts for a LOT more in Europe than here in the U.S. For this reason, you also see MANY more small I4's (and diesels) than you will in the U.S. Result of this? Many, many more stickshifts. That doesn't mean that VW makes better manual transmissions than Honda.
Look at it another way: there is a higher % of V8 equipped cars in the U.S. than anywhere else on the planet. Would you then acknowledge that Ford/GM make 'better' and 'higher quality' V8's than the Europeans?
no it was lowered in 07 that is a fact! Its even been in vw's press releases! and they are now offering launch control on the 07's as well! Just check the specs! i have a manual from the 06's and the 07's and the numbers plainly show that it has been lowered!!!
Nope, I was comparing the previous generation type R to the current SI. Never drove the old SI and from what I've heard I didn't really miss anything.
So then i was right? I asked you this!! :mad: and you say 'nope'. Talk about not paying attention to details! How can you say nope? The new si is basically the type r in coupe form. Six speed tranny, aggressive suspension, 200 hp k20 with a loft 8000rpm redline. They are very similar vehicles. And yes i know that its just an si, but it makes sense for the newest generation to outdo the old one even if it is type r.
And when did you drive a type r if you've never been to europe? They were only available there!
"The fallacy here is the assumption that since Europeans prefer stick shifts to automatics that Europe must be a continent full of enthusists who appreciate a fine transmission. "
Come on, you know very well that here cars like Toyota Yaris or Corolla come almost only with automatic transmission and they have small engines. There are no driving schools, most of the people don't know how to drive stick or learn by themselves. You cannot compare the average European with the average American when it comes to cars.
"no it was lowered in 07 that is a fact! Its even been in vw's press releases! and they are now offering launch control on the 07's as well! Just check the specs! i have a manual from the 06's and the 07's and the numbers plainly show that it has been lowered!!!"
I really don't take pleasure in doing this but I have to contradict you again. GTI's are not lowered for 2007. It was supposed to happen but it didn't. It will start with the 2008 model. Check on Vortex if you don't believe me.
"You cannot compare the average European with the average American when it comes to cars."
First of all, I wasn't.
Second of all, of what possible relevance is the average European to the average American? Are we comparing cars or drivers/owners?
Third, if I understand correctly, it is YOUR assumption that the manual transmissions in European cars (specifically VW) are 'better' than the manual transmissions in Japanese cars (specifically Honda) simply because more Europeans drive VW's than Hondas and more Europeans drive manual than automatic.
All I'm saying is that your logic makes no sense. As an example (which you conveniently ignored) I pointed out that Americans vastly prefer V8 engines (and I'd bet that the average American KNOWS more about V8 engines than your average European). Based on your brand of logic, it would follow that Americans BUILD better V8's than anyone else, based purely on sales numbers. Do you believe then that a Chevy or Ford V8 is a better engine than one made by VW/Audi, BMW, or MB?
because you spell realize with an s? even i have done that! With all you knowledge of wal mart jeans, consumer reports and the overall quality of AMERICAN hondas which seem to be nonexistant in europe, i'd say that even if you are from europe, it doesn't sound like it.
"With all you knowledge of wal mart jeans, consumer reports and the overall quality of AMERICAN hondas which seem to be nonexistant in europe, i'd say that even if you are from europe, it doesn't sound like it."
I live here now but I'm still visiting some of my family that lives in Europe. Clear enough?
"Second of all, of what possible relevance is the average European to the average American? Are we comparing cars or drivers/owners? "
We were analysing the completely opposite choices Americans and Europeans make when looking at the same cars.
"As an example (which you conveniently ignored) I pointed out that Americans vastly prefer V8 engines (and I'd bet that the average American KNOWS more about V8 engines than your average European). Based on your brand of logic, it would follow that Americans BUILD better V8's than anyone else, based purely on sales numbers."
First, Europeans don't choose smaller engines because they like them the best or because they don't know about V8 engines. The reason for which V8 engines are not a popular choice is that few people can afford paying to fill the tanks in cars with V8 engines in Europe. Second, people choose a V8 made by Ford over a V8 made by BMW or Mercedes because it costs 3 times less. If VW would sell their cars three times cheaper than Honda sells theirs, your comparison would fit better. What I am saying is that the Europeans don't buy VWs because they are cheaper than Hondas(because they are not)they buy them because they are convinced that VWs are better cars. Americans buy V8 from Ford instead of Mercedes simply because they are a lot cheaper.
"What I am saying is that the Europeans don't buy VWs because they are cheaper than Hondas(because they are not)they buy them because they are convinced that VWs are better cars."
Yep.
And millions of Americans buy GM/Fords over VWs because.....they believe that GM/Fords are better cars.
My point is that you CAN'T go simply by popularity to measure quality; which is what you seem to be doing. Maybe more Europeans buy VW than Hondas is because VW's are....European? You think? Maybe?
"And millions of Americans buy GM/Fords over VWs because.....they believe that GM/Fords are better cars."
Again you are comparing cars that are not in the same price range. I would like to see how many people would buy a Ford Explorer over a VW Tuareg if they would cost the same.
"Maybe more Europeans buy VW than Hondas is because VW's are....European? You think? Maybe?"
Europe is not a big country. People are very different in many parts of Europe and they will definitely not think to buy a car just because is made in a country that's part of Europe. VW, BMW are not "European cars" for people that live in Europe , they are German cars and buying this cars doesn't make them in any way feel like they support their country (like people that buy Ford in America feel). So the only reason they choose VW over Honda is that they know better what quality means, when it comes to cars.
So the only reason they choose VW over Honda is that they know better what quality means, when it comes to cars.
I'm trying really hard to avoid being offensive. VW leads all of europe in diesel technology. Diesels make up over 2/3rds of the cars sold in europe and actually a greater percentage of low end cars are diesel as only the wealthy or the very unfortunate drive petrol cars.
VW dominates Honda because VW's diesel technology has been on the continent for well over 50 years. They're the big dogs on the block. You can add in roadfeel, interior, blah, blah. The truth is, the Polo and Golf offer great, known diesel engines for European buyers.
Honda is not a major player in Europe. Ditto Mazda, Toyota, etc. The European brands are strong, followed by the less popular American brands. Even ford and gm have been involved for a long time in euro-diesels. Honda is new to the diesel game. Heck Nissan is owned by Renault yet Renault easily outsells Nissan. Can you buy an Renault here? Nope. Many european brands can't make the transition here and the same is true of japanese brands in europe. That's the long and the short of it.
"VW dominates Honda because VW's diesel technology has been on the continent for well over 50 years."
VW dominates Honda in Europe because it's a driver's car and that is what people want over there. Honda has very good diesel engines on the European market and I think anybody should have hard time choosing between a Honda made for the European market and a VW. What I don't understand is how somebody in the right mind can like a Honda made for US. The newer American Hondas(after 2003) are ridiculously bad made cars. They are nowhere near VW quality and I'm saying that based on my own experience with both brands.
a young member asked for advice deciding between two of these autos, and somehow it's turned into a discussion of European attitudes and purchasing habits. I'm pretty sure that's not what the menber was looking for, and I'm very sure you all can discuss this without resorting to sniping. Please turn your insult filters back on. Thanks.
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"a young member asked for advice deciding between two of these autos, and somehow it's turned into a discussion of European attitudes and purchasing habits. I'm pretty sure that's not what the menber was looking for, and I'm very sure you all can discuss this without resorting to sniping. Please turn your insult filters back on. Thanks. "
You are right. For that matter... could you delete my last message(#757)? Thanks.
Just posted were the numbers by VW on their long awaited arrival of the R32 here in the States. Performance will be 0-60 in 6.4 seconds, and the Haldex AWD(VW calls is 4-motion, but, it's not the real Quattro) will send 75% on power to the rear wheels. It also only comes with DSG. Hmmmm.......
Big time bust by VW. Not really much more power than a 2.0, plus it's heavier and burdened with just DSG. We don't even get the sweet euro seats. For 32k there are plenty of much better cars.
Especially if you like having to give it full throttle for your power. You can stomp the gas and get little feedback until high RPM. Thats why I went with a GTI. Tap the gas and it responds.
The Mazda just didn't have the quality feel and I felt like I was still driving a '92 Integra quality wise.
"This technology has been tried before but not successfully. Other manufacturers could not make the change from supercharged power to turbocharged power seamless."
Like the DSG transmission, VW has invented another seamless...well:
> Big time bust by VW. Not really much more power than a 2.0, plus it's heavier and burdened with just DSG. We don't even get the sweet euro seats.
Perhaps VW AG (not VWoA) decided that between the Euro exchange rates, the cost of modifying the car for the U.S. market, and the poor driving skills of U.S. drivers (in relation to German drivers), it just isn't worth their while bringing their hotter offerings to the U.S. Can't say I'd blame them...
Had my SI about 6 months now. No rattles. No problems period. Handling in the snow with the stock all seasons is not great but I still made it home. If I had the summer tires I think I would have gotten stuck for sure. Any GTI owners have any problems yet? MS3 owners? I have only seen one other SI in six months, a blue one. I have seen several GTI's, and NO MS3.
I see all of the above daily. Maybe it's the area you live? so cal is a car culture, so the newest cars and officially foreign cars sells extremely well here.
I see several Si coupes around here, but very few GTIs and never a MS3. Our VW dealer in B'ham REALLY STINKS though. I've never heard one good thing about them, so that may contribute to a lack of GTIs on the road. We have three Honda dealers, two of which I hear good things, one which is pretty slick. Several Si coupes, but NO sedans are selling.
Perhaps VW AG (not VWoA) decided that between the Euro exchange rates, the cost of modifying the car for the U.S. market, and the poor driving skills of U.S. drivers (in relation to German drivers),
I really do not see how any of that had a play in why we are getting what we are. Not much modifying if the vehicle in Germany is getting a manual tranny.
I think that statement of German drivers being more experienced is really not accurate. That is really a blanket statement that is untrue, unless you some how can provide proof that it is?
I have been seeing the same thing. My contact at the Honda dealer down the street says they are selling the 2dr Civic Si's, not the 4 door. Reviews of the 4 dr have not been as good as the coupe.
I am sold out of MS3's, as is most dealers in my district. It may be a while before you start to see them. The Si has also been out for almost a year now, and there are 3 Honda dealers within 10 miles around here. I do see the Si coupe every now and then.
Does anyone know the production numbers of the Si coupe and sedan?
Fiancee drove the GTI 4 door DSG and found it fun. She liked the size, power, versatility.
Also had her drive a TSX auto (she can drive manual but prefers auto) and she loathed it. found it slow.
The dealer pushed her into a TL and I just let it happen, knowing her preferences. Out on the road, he excitedly asked about the power. She told him the car felt heavy and huge. LOL
Anyway, the GTI is our strongest contender but she knows I'm leaning that way so she she's gonna peep an A3.
Based on first-hand driving experience during my Air Force days (as a crew-chief on a C-141 Starlifter cargo aircraft) while on TDY at the now closed Rhein Main AB (used to be part of the Frankfurt Main Airport). I went on a nice (quick) drive to Butzberg (slightly to the northeast of Frankfurt on the A5 Autobahn) with a couple of my fellow USAF airmen in a rented BMW 525td (yes, there are diesels all over the place).
My first impression was how well disciplined the drivers were on the road compared to the driving conditions back home. They told me that the procedure to get your drivers license is a lot stricter, consisting of a comprehensive road test, written testing and physical examination. You must exhibit a high-level of competence behind the wheel in several different real-world conditions BEFORE you will be considered for a drivers license. And not just demonstrating an ability to parallel park...
I took my drivers test in NJ when I was 16 and received my license at 16. The drivers test consisted of buckling up, using your turn signal, yielding the right of way, and parallel parking (and that was many, many moons ago).
So when I made the so-called "blanket statement", it was made from first-hand experience... :shades:
B.T.W. - Try not to get offended at the possibility that there are better drivers outside the U.S. Based on my almost 30 years of driving (here and abroad), we aren't exactly the most disciplined of drivers (as a whole) out there (myself included)...
I'll give you a specific example in the form of a comparison between U.S. and German drivers.
On the autobahn, when you are in the passing lane and see a distant flashing of headlights in your rearview mirror, you have a split-second to get out of the passing lane, because chances are its a Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, or GTI going at a leisurely 220 km/h (just north of 135mph). And unless you don't want to become part of that car, you WILL move over. The majority of German drivers understand this and do so (not doing so will subject the driver to scorn and ridicule)...
In the U.S., a majority of drivers tend to LIVE in the passing lane (which causes drivers to use the right lane for passing)... :mad:
B.T.W. - Try not to get offended at the possibility that there are better drivers outside the U.S. Based on my almost 30 years of driving (here and abroad), we aren't exactly the most disciplined of drivers (as a whole) out there (myself included)...
Not offended. To be honest, before you described your personal experience, it sounded like a blanket statement. I have never been to Germany, thats why I asked you for proof.
I have never been on the autobahn, but, I sure would like to give it a whirl.....
In the U.S., a majority of drivers tend to LIVE in the passing lane (which causes drivers to use the right lane for passing)...
This happens especially during Saturday and Sunday. In Hong Kong, China, we call it "Sunday drivers", those inexperienced drivers only drive on holidays.
I lived in Germany years ago and the they are far superior drivers. There are rules in driving that everyone follows. They recieve extensive training and are required to prove their skills. It costs quite a bit of money to get a license. Thier cars must pass a stict safety and roadworthyness inspection, so there are no junkers on the road. It is amazing when you are cruising in bumper to bumper traffic at 90 mph and suddenly you have to stop. Drivers intuitivly stagger left and right accordingly avoiding a huge pile up. You don't see them on the phone, drinking coffee, eating bratworst or putting on makeup. when they drive they are driving. ever notice that older 80's model BMW's don't have cup holders? cofee and driving? NO, drive then coffee.
Comments
I actually mentioned the WRX as being a better choice for a racer compared with the cars that are discussed in this thread(especially Mazda who aims more in that direction). But as an every day driver is really lousy in my opinion. It's noisy, has the biggest turbo lag I've seen in a modern car, really bad gas mileage, outdated looks inside and outside, steering that feels loose(I'm surprised that the tight ratio of the GTI steering didn't impress you).
On the plus side the car can take beating like no other(except the STI). Good car if in need of 4 wheel traction and proving everybody(figuratively speaking) on the street that you are faster.
WRX is fun. I found the AWD system intrusive but I find all AWD systems to be intrusive.
My bro-in-law's little brother has a WRX that he modded to the high heavens. Bought it in 2002 and that thing is still running even though he drives it like a total fool. The durability of those cars is beyond reproach.
Honda is seen as a fairly cheap brand with poor resale value in Europe. The way people look at Hyundai here is the way people look at Honda there. It's not a bad car, it's reliable but you don't want to be stuck with one. That's the reason they don't sell so well. Like I said before, I don't believe European Hondas (Acuras here)are bad cars, but they just don't stand out with anything, not even their transmissions...
I'll believe Honda is viewed as a second-class car. Not having a viable diesel engine certainly harms them in the Euro marketplace.
The fallacy here is the assumption that since Europeans prefer stick shifts to automatics that Europe must be a continent full of enthusists who appreciate a fine transmission.
The reality is somewhat different.
Europe has exceedingly high gas prices. Fuel economy counts for a LOT more in Europe than here in the U.S. For this reason, you also see MANY more small I4's (and diesels) than you will in the U.S. Result of this? Many, many more stickshifts. That doesn't mean that VW makes better manual transmissions than Honda.
Look at it another way: there is a higher % of V8 equipped cars in the U.S. than anywhere else on the planet. Would you then acknowledge that Ford/GM make 'better' and 'higher quality' V8's than the Europeans?
So then i was right? I asked you this!! :mad: and you say 'nope'. Talk about not paying attention to details! How can you say nope? The new si is basically the type r in coupe form. Six speed tranny, aggressive suspension, 200 hp k20 with a loft 8000rpm redline. They are very similar vehicles. And yes i know that its just an si, but it makes sense for the newest generation to outdo the old one even if it is type r.
And when did you drive a type r if you've never been to europe? They were only available there!
Come on, you know very well that here cars like Toyota Yaris or Corolla come almost only with automatic transmission and they have small engines. There are no driving schools, most of the people don't know how to drive stick or learn by themselves. You cannot compare the average European with the average American when it comes to cars.
The GTI will be lowered in 2008. Check Vortex. It was supposed to be lowered in 2007 but not anymore.
How about the new BMW M3
I really don't take pleasure in doing this but I have to contradict you again. GTI's are not lowered for 2007. It was supposed to happen but it didn't. It will start with the 2008 model. Check on Vortex if you don't believe me.
That's what I thought too before driving both and seeing that they are worlds apart.
First of all, I wasn't.
Second of all, of what possible relevance is the average European to the average American? Are we comparing cars or drivers/owners?
Third, if I understand correctly, it is YOUR assumption that the manual transmissions in European cars (specifically VW) are 'better' than the manual transmissions in Japanese cars (specifically Honda) simply because more Europeans drive VW's than Hondas and more Europeans drive manual than automatic.
All I'm saying is that your logic makes no sense. As an example (which you conveniently ignored) I pointed out that Americans vastly prefer V8 engines (and I'd bet that the average American KNOWS more about V8 engines than your average European). Based on your brand of logic, it would follow that Americans BUILD better V8's than anyone else, based purely on sales numbers. Do you believe then that a Chevy or Ford V8 is a better engine than one made by VW/Audi, BMW, or MB?
I had no idea you were European, eldaino.......
I live here now but I'm still visiting some of my family that lives in Europe. Clear enough?
We were analysing the completely opposite choices Americans and Europeans make when looking at the same cars.
"As an example (which you conveniently ignored) I pointed out that Americans vastly prefer V8 engines (and I'd bet that the average American KNOWS more about V8 engines than your average European). Based on your brand of logic, it would follow that Americans BUILD better V8's than anyone else, based purely on sales numbers."
First, Europeans don't choose smaller engines because they like them the best or because they don't know about V8 engines. The reason for which V8 engines are not a popular choice is that few people can afford paying to fill the tanks in cars with V8 engines in Europe.
Second, people choose a V8 made by Ford over a V8 made by BMW or Mercedes because it costs 3 times less. If VW would sell their cars three times cheaper than Honda sells theirs, your comparison would fit better.
What I am saying is that the Europeans don't buy VWs because they are cheaper than Hondas(because they are not)they buy them because they are convinced that VWs are better cars.
Americans buy V8 from Ford instead of Mercedes simply because they are a lot cheaper.
Yep.
And millions of Americans buy GM/Fords over VWs because.....they believe that GM/Fords are better cars.
My point is that you CAN'T go simply by popularity to measure quality; which is what you seem to be doing. Maybe more Europeans buy VW than Hondas is because VW's are....European? You think? Maybe?
Again you are comparing cars that are not in the same price range. I would like to see how many people would buy a Ford Explorer over a VW Tuareg if they would cost the same.
"Maybe more Europeans buy VW than Hondas is because VW's are....European? You think? Maybe?"
Europe is not a big country. People are very different in many parts of Europe and they will definitely not think to buy a car just because is made in a country that's part of Europe. VW, BMW are not "European cars" for people that live in Europe , they are German cars and buying this cars doesn't make them in any way feel like they support their country (like people that buy Ford in America feel). So the only reason they choose VW over Honda is that they know better what quality means, when it comes to cars.
I'm trying really hard to avoid being offensive. VW leads all of europe in diesel technology. Diesels make up over 2/3rds of the cars sold in europe and actually a greater percentage of low end cars are diesel as only the wealthy or the very unfortunate drive petrol cars.
VW dominates Honda because VW's diesel technology has been on the continent for well over 50 years. They're the big dogs on the block. You can add in roadfeel, interior, blah, blah. The truth is, the Polo and Golf offer great, known diesel engines for European buyers.
Honda is not a major player in Europe. Ditto Mazda, Toyota, etc. The European brands are strong, followed by the less popular American brands. Even ford and gm have been involved for a long time in euro-diesels. Honda is new to the diesel game. Heck Nissan is owned by Renault yet Renault easily outsells Nissan. Can you buy an Renault here? Nope. Many european brands can't make the transition here and the same is true of japanese brands in europe. That's the long and the short of it.
Indeed, it isn't a country at all.
Was this comment really necessary?
VW dominates Honda in Europe because it's a driver's car and that is what people want over there. Honda has very good diesel engines on the European market and I think anybody should have hard time choosing between a Honda made for the European market and a VW. What I don't understand is how somebody in the right mind can like a Honda made for US. The newer American Hondas(after 2003) are ridiculously bad made cars. They are nowhere near VW quality and I'm saying that based on my own experience with both brands.
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You are right. For that matter... could you delete my last message(#757)? Thanks.
330i: MSRP: $ 51,600
GTI: MSRP: $ 29,375
The Mazda just didn't have the quality feel and I felt like I was still driving a '92 Integra quality wise.
If you're talking about VW's super & turbo charged 1.4, then yes. By the way, does any body know when is that Golf GT engine coming to this country?
http://www.motorbar.co.uk/vwgolf14gt.htm
"This technology has been tried before but not successfully. Other manufacturers could not make the change from supercharged power to turbocharged power seamless."
Like the DSG transmission, VW has invented another seamless...well:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Auto_News/Euro_Drive_VWs_Golf_TS- I.S173.A11836.html?pg=2
Perhaps VW AG (not VWoA) decided that between the Euro exchange rates, the cost of modifying the car for the U.S. market, and the poor driving skills of U.S. drivers (in relation to German drivers), it just isn't worth their while bringing their hotter offerings to the U.S. Can't say I'd blame them...
I really do not see how any of that had a play in why we are getting what we are. Not much modifying if the vehicle in Germany is getting a manual tranny.
I think that statement of German drivers being more experienced is really not accurate. That is really a blanket statement that is untrue, unless you some how can provide proof that it is?
I have been seeing the same thing. My contact at the Honda dealer down the street says they are selling the 2dr Civic Si's, not the 4 door. Reviews of the 4 dr have not been as good as the coupe.
I am sold out of MS3's, as is most dealers in my district. It may be a while before you start to see them. The Si has also been out for almost a year now, and there are 3 Honda dealers within 10 miles around here. I do see the Si coupe every now and then.
Does anyone know the production numbers of the Si coupe and sedan?
Also had her drive a TSX auto (she can drive manual but prefers auto) and she loathed it. found it slow.
The dealer pushed her into a TL and I just let it happen, knowing her preferences. Out on the road, he excitedly asked about the power. She told him the car felt heavy and huge. LOL
Anyway, the GTI is our strongest contender but she knows I'm leaning that way so she she's gonna peep an A3.
My first impression was how well disciplined the drivers were on the road compared to the driving conditions back home. They told me that the procedure to get your drivers license is a lot stricter, consisting of a comprehensive road test, written testing and physical examination. You must exhibit a high-level of competence behind the wheel in several different real-world conditions BEFORE you will be considered for a drivers license. And not just demonstrating an ability to parallel park...
I took my drivers test in NJ when I was 16 and received my license at 16. The drivers test consisted of buckling up, using your turn signal, yielding the right of way, and parallel parking (and that was many, many moons ago).
So when I made the so-called "blanket statement", it was made from first-hand experience... :shades:
B.T.W. - Try not to get offended at the possibility that there are better drivers outside the U.S. Based on my almost 30 years of driving (here and abroad), we aren't exactly the most disciplined of drivers (as a whole) out there (myself included)...
On the autobahn, when you are in the passing lane and see a distant flashing of headlights in your rearview mirror, you have a split-second to get out of the passing lane, because chances are its a Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, or GTI going at a leisurely 220 km/h (just north of 135mph). And unless you don't want to become part of that car, you WILL move over. The majority of German drivers understand this and do so (not doing so will subject the driver to scorn and ridicule)...
In the U.S., a majority of drivers tend to LIVE in the passing lane (which causes drivers to use the right lane for passing)... :mad:
Not offended. To be honest, before you described your personal experience, it sounded like a blanket statement. I have never been to Germany, thats why I asked you for proof.
I have never been on the autobahn, but, I sure would like to give it a whirl.....
This happens especially during Saturday and Sunday. In Hong Kong, China, we call it "Sunday drivers", those inexperienced drivers only drive on holidays.
It is amazing when you are cruising in bumper to bumper traffic at 90 mph and suddenly you have to stop. Drivers intuitivly stagger left and right accordingly avoiding a huge pile up. You don't see them on the phone, drinking coffee, eating bratworst or putting on makeup. when they drive they are driving. ever notice that older 80's model BMW's don't have cup holders? cofee and driving? NO, drive then coffee.