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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
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Lets just set aside what YOU think is a family car and what some of us think is a family car. If one were to have 2 kids AND enjoyed a sporting drive, it technically WOULD make more sense to get a smaller four door vehicle, such as a gti, si or ms3. Plenty of space for the kids and extra room to carry things. The gas mileage would techincally be better than any v-6 powered minivan or suv, even if you do drive the car a little hard due to its sporting intentions.
I know the ms3's milage numbers may be less than stellar, but the gti and si would defintley yield better mileage.
Don't get me wrong, i think that suv's have thier place; my parents have an 05 honda pilot, but they use it well; they are a family of seven, NOT including me.
Or is it just simply that you are one of those people who will see a family guy driving a four door si and see his kids in the back, you scoff and think he should be driving a different car,even after being givin valid reasons that it makes sense for him to have it? (Not to mention his right.)
Having a family doesn't mean you should sacrifice the joy of driving
But since the miata has nothing to do with any of the cars at hand i dunno why it was even brought up! LOL! :P
But then we had a second child and I just couldn't convince my wife that use of the luggage rack on the trunk was a viable option...... :confuse:
Maybe if you volunteered to be the luggage...
Couldn't find a luggage rack for a Miata that was rated for my weight....no problem with a toddler though...
I even tried to pitch the whole "but honey, the bugs in the teeth would be a good source of added nutrients" but no dice......women.... :confuse:
I even tried to pitch the whole "but honey, the bugs in the teeth would be a good source of added nutrients" but no dice......women....
Quite a card. Are you related to W.C. Fields?
True story: my wife DID briefly consider getting a Miata even after our 2nd daughter was born; mostly because it would be fairly cheap and would be a fun car for her when she didn't have the kids. I balked at having 3 cars (well, 4 if you count MY toy) and the associated additional insurance.
She'll drive that minivan and she'll LIKE IT, dammit.
s'okay, she never reads this stuff in here, so I'm safe...
We're still talking about it. A miata bought now would be fine right up to the birth of our first. So if that's two-three years out, I could have the miata paid off easily and just buy a sensible family car like a GTI 4 door, Civic Si sedan or Mazdaspeed6 in 09-10.
At 16k for an unsold base 2006, we could get a brand new NC that would last for 8-9 years easily - especially if it eventually became a weekend car.
BTW, I'm still totally on the fence about my car choice. I talked to swapalease and they made it clear they can move my 330i pretty easily given my silly low lease payments. Decisions, decisions.
The GTI is so much more buttoned-down and feels more upscale than the Civic and Mz3. But I'm still paranoid regarding VW reliability. Argh.
The salesman told me that an employee who bought one installed the intake, JUST the intake, and is now dynoing his car at 305 horsepower.
I had to suppress a hardy laugh.
But man was it the looker!
Well, that's a load of bulls@#%!!!
I believe if you get the Mazdaspeed exhaust and intake, it adds 30hp to the crank. Not the wheels.
How is inventory where anyone else is?
With the exception of the original 3 with 4 spd auto, Mazda's problem has not been with fuel efficiency, it has been with design. Look at that Protege' I drove. Instead of being proactive and doing something original, the designers did their best to make it look like the Camry of the time. The original RX-7 was trying very hard to look like a Porsche. That's not a proactive paradigm for a design team, that's reactive. Now all of the sudden, three years after the introduction of the 6, the Camry's (as well as the Lexus IS series) fixtures and logo are taking on a more angular, "sporty" look. It tickles me a little to see Toyota reacting to "Jaformazlo" instead of the other way around.
My experience with the 03 protege ES was that it operated flawlessly for around-town and fun roads but on the open freeway at 85+ it returned lousy mileage.
Protege looked like a camry? I had an 03 and it looked nothing like a camry.
My experience with the 03 protege ES was that it operated flawlessly for around-town and fun roads but on the open freeway at 85+ it returned lousy mileage.
I think its pretty obvious he meant the '94, and made no reference to the 2003 Protege, OR 2003 Camry. I imagine it was a reference to both.
Your reference to poor mileage above 85 miles per hour is self explanitory to me. Just one question, ever blow a tire at 90 MPH?
85+ is the cutoff for "reckless driving" in my state's drivers manual for a reason, IMO, unless you are on a track, which is entirely different.
how's that? I have run across europe at over 100 mph, yet returned fine mileage. I've driven from SD to Vegas numerous times (over 300 miles) in a touch over 3 hours and still netted high 20s. The long drive from sac/sf to San Diego (over 500 miles) usually takes me about 6 hours - must drive through LA - and I'd pull 30-32 mpg with my other car.
85+ is the cutoff for "reckless driving" in my state's drivers manual for a reason, IMO, unless you are on a track, which is entirely different.
With 70 the max speed on many desolate CA, AZ and Nevada highways, 85 is barely above the norm. 80 won't even get a cop's attention on our desert freeways. 101 mph is considered reckless driving in CA and Nevada.
I stand my view that Mazda's poorly geared for freeway driving. At 75 mph no car should ever be turning over 3500 rpm in top gear...that's bad gearing.
I liked the Passat but it wasn't reliable (really disappointing because it could have been such a great car) the expense of repair and the frequency of the shop visits just kind of overwhelmed the "goodness" of the car.
Tomorrow I'm taking another stab at a Civic Si. The salesguy is actually showing my fiancee different cars (she loves the A3 but is - rightly in my view - concerned about longterm reliability) and I figure I can sneak in a chance to play with the Civic.
The shifter was great. Yeah, there was a problem with that first Si sedan that I drove. The action was sure and quick.
The engine revved smoothly to 7000 rpm and then slowed massively. WOT and the car would build speed nicely until about 7 and then the rev climb was sloooow. Weird as my buddies Coupe Si pulled to 8k without a problem. Still it's fairly easy to modulate the engine's power - unlike the on-off of the Mazdaspeed3. Overall, the GTI's power delivery is still my favorite and the most pleasing for me - coming from an inline 6.
Handling was pretty sharp but still understeer was there. Get on the gas and you can yank through a corner nicely with the LSD. I'm a RWD guy, so all of this nose pushing feels off to me. Some body roll but there's a tradeoff. On cruddy roads the Si sedan felt planted and absorbed potholes and such easily. The car wasn't skippy like the Mazdaspeed3 but rather filtered road problems nicely while still transmitting them to my wheel and seat. Better than the Mazdaspeed3 in this regard but not as supple as the GTI. Flipside, the GTI can't hang in a corner as nicely as the other two cars. If I go GTI it'll need sways for sure.
Interior is decent but the car feels like its roots: economy car. The interior's fine, functional and would work nicely if I were younger. Being a tad older, I want the pieces to flow, the materials to feel high-end and overall the Mazdaspeed3 is beyond the Civic and the GTI is in an entirely different league.
Lighting - civic si loses immediately as they only offer lousy halogens. Mazdaspeed3 can be purchased with xenons and the GTI comes with them standard.
Interior space - the Civic si feels a tad cramped with 3 adults in it. Trunk space was decent. Backseat doesn't exist behind me and I'm small. The Mazdaspeed3 is king in this as it's positively huge in length and interior space. The GTI's the best compromise as it's got some space behind the seats, the backseats are extremely comfortable and ingress-egress from all seats is easy.
The Civic Si is fun to drive hard. Unfortunately, the power's either on with rpms high or it's totally off. The muffler never lets you forget this is a tuner-car - there's no way you take this car out to dinner or pick up your mother-in-law in it. Essentially, it's all snarly, fun econobox matched to a pretty compliant suspension but altogether cheap interior feel/design.
Overall, if I can move my 330i on swapalease, I'll go for a GTI. If not, I'll hang tight for the 08 WRX and see if it trumps or matches the GTI in fit/finish/space/features.
Nothing similar there. Must have been in my head.
i just don't want to have any buyer's remorse a week after i make my purchase.
Useful Power:
MS3 - 1
GTI - 2
Si - 3
Handling
Si - 1
MS3 - 2
GTI - 3
Engine Refinement
GTI - 1
Si - 2
MS3 - 3
Tranny
GTI - 1
Si - 2
MS3 - 3
Tuner potential
GTI - 1
MS3 - 2
Si - 3
Expected Reliability
Si -1
MS3 - 2
GTI - 3
Usable space
MS3 - 1
GTI - 2
Si - 3
Interior materials
GTI - 1
MS3 - 2
Si - 3
Civlity - can it be used as a daily driver or with grandma in the car;
GTI - 1
MS3 - 2
Si - 3
Available Features
GTI - 1
MS3 - 2
Si - 3
Predicted Resale value
Si - 1
GTI - 2
MS3 - 3
Gas mileage
GTI - 1
Si - 2
MS3 - 3
Maintenance costs
Si - 1
MS3 - 2
GTI - 3
Best track car
MS3 - 1
Si - 2
GTI - 3
When it's all said and done, I like the more respectable, adult, feature laden GTI over the scrappier but super entertaining MS3 and the econobox, tight handling, reliable Civic Si.
The civic si comes stripped and offers no extra features
The speed3 comes nicely equipped but requires extra packaging for Xenons and leather.
The GTI comes with Xenons standard and offers leather.
For me the Si's lack of Xenons is an unforgivable sin.
Predicted resale I based on honda resale, civic si resale of the past. The Si sells extremely well and almost every honda holds its value to the point of losing only a grand or two a year.
VW's hold value and the GTI is its strongest.
Mazda's have scary bad resale but the 3 is supposedly improved over the rest of line. Still, I'd assume a speed3 will drop like a stone using the Protege Speed and the Speed6 as evidence. A used Mazda is always a great buy though...
Cannot use the Mazdaspeed6 as evidence. Totally different market. If you go by the current Civic and current Mazda3, they both hold equal value. My bet is the Mazdaspeed3 will hold value much better then the Speed6, and be more on par with how the Civic Si holds it's value.
Don't know about the space behind the backseat that you mentioned earlier though, mazda3 has always been known for tight backseat space and the civi i belive (in sedan form) has got more space back there. Perhaps its the swooping windshield that make it feel cramped?
Agree with most everything else. Especially resale value. But i think the si's interior, while not as ultra nice as the gti's, is still nice and everything flows. But it and the ms3 seemed to be more economy car evident than the gti.
There's nothing you can really do for a reasonable price that will improve the car's power. Short of adding a turbo, no catback or exhaust will add the sort of immediate payoff you get from tuning a GTI/MS3.
$600 on a GTI gets you 250 hp/300 ft-lbs of torque. $200 = a new sway. $1000 and you can drop the car. For under 2k you can get unseemly power and much better handling than stock.
Don't know about the space behind the backseat that you mentioned earlier though, mazda3 has always been known for tight backseat space and the civi i belive (in sedan form) has got more space back there.
This is how tape lies. Sit in the cars. I can sit behind myself in a MS3 because the back seats are higher and therefore my knees are at 90 degrees. No splayed sitting. In the SI my knees are cocked at 110-120 degress, legs splayed and I'm in extreme pain.
True but the feel of the interior, the sound of the doors, the way everything feels to the touch means the Mazda and more so the GTI feel a step above the very cheap looking and feeling Civic.
For one, I don't understand why you would consider a GTI? From the sound of it, you must make a good living, traveling to Europe to purchase your cars and such. Why bother with a GTI? Enlighten me.
Because the e90 is heavy, isolated and just not very much fun to drive. I've had the car at 150 for extended periods, raced through the autostrada in northern italy at 120, driven around the Alps on side roads at twice the posted limits. Quite frankly the car was boring. There's little sound, no vibration, little roadfeel. Just isolated, cocooned, rock-stable, predictable teutonic engineering with zero pulse-raising.
My lighter, louder, less insulated E46 was infinitely more fun at just about any speed. At 140 in that car you felt the speed.
I'm reluctant to buy a used BMW - they make really unreliable cars in my experience - so I'm looking for something that offers the balance of a BMW: drive it hard on a track, take it to a nice dinner that night. The GTI is one of the few cars that can do that too. It may not have RWD but it's light, responsive, easily boosted to be a better handler/performer and overall give a buyer a car that can be at home carving a canyon as it is going on a long drive to Monterey. On the plus side v. the BMW it's substantially lighter.
FWIW, my 330i is as good as gone. Unless the guy assuming my lease has bad credit I can count on being without my e90 in under 15 business days.
My fiancee's recent acquisition of a 2006 A3 actually is making me look beyond the GTI. I figure she has the sensible 4-5 passenger car, plus her extra car, so we can get something even smaller, more sporty as my daily driver.
What? When you are talking tuning potential, there is no limit to the si. But then again from a true tuning point of view, money really isn't everything. Yes the gti's turbo is very limited in stock form and like you said, can easily be chipped to make more power. But the sheer amount of parts available for the si is ridiculous. It may not be cheap, but then the correct statement would have been :the gti is 'cheaper' to tune'. And even then, that is just initially. VW's usually have very expensive aftermarket parts and this is a very well known fact.
The ms3 seems pretty limited too: there is not a whole lot of parts available for the ms3, it seems its going to be snubbed like the base mz3 again, so mazda has to rely on its own factory accessories. Plus the fact that the turbo on the ms3 is so maxed out, it would probably be more of a hassle for a tuner to extract more power out of it, and more reasonable to just buy a bigger turbo kit. Having said that, this at least merits the si (despite how expensive it could potentially be, which i personally disagree with because i've seen them tuned to great lengths, for not so much money.), having more potential.
This is how tape lies. Sit in the cars. I can sit behind myself in a MS3 because the back seats are higher and therefore my knees are at 90 degrees. No splayed sitting. In the SI my knees are cocked at 110-120 degress, legs splayed and I'm in extreme pain.
are you tall blue guy? I've never had any problems. The back of the fron seat has always seemed to just about to touch my knees in the ms3. Yes i have sat in both cars.
$600 on a GTI gets you 250 hp/300 ft-lbs of torque. $200 = a new sway. $1000 and you can drop the car. For under 2k you can get unseemly power and much better handling than stock
sway bars and lowering the car may make the gti handle better than stock, but you have to remember that the si handles a lot better right out of the box. As great as the hp numbers for a souped up gti can be, it still has the weight to lug around and a relativley small turbo and a full exhaust and some engine management on an si can easily make it keep up. would it cost a little more? probably. But the fact of the matter is that even from an aftermarket stance, the si will probably have the handling advantage. and you see thats the problem with the aftermarket; it gets to a point where its not so much what car is the best, but what its strong points are. Maybe initially its easy to soup up a gti, but its also very easy to get the si to a point to where the gti would have to have quite a bit more spent on it to get it there. That doesn't mean the gti is inferior, or the si superior; its just that once you start getting into the aftermarket, it shouldn't be completley totally fully and collectively all about money.
To prove my point, one of my buddies has a 1995 black honda civic ex, with an si motor swapped into it. He owes no money on the car and has spent about 6000 in mods. The car makes about 300 hp at the crank, and 288 to the wheels. (and yes he has taken the measures to better his suspension. ) he has killed brand new mustangs, including a saleen and even a corvette c06. And yes he bested my rabbit. :P
I love both cars blue guy, but i recognize the weaknesses of both as well. I don't think the civic is the greatest thing ever, but i also realize that the gti is not the all encomapsisng amazing hot hatch with the most amazing interior of all time either.
have to disagree with you again. While i think the gti does have the best interior, it is only by a small margin. I really don't think the civic looks cheap at all; its rather nice looking in my opinion. And even though my rabbit feels just a tiny bit nicer than the civic i used to have, i still don't think the civic was cheap at all. And a gti is a rabbit with a black face, bigger wheels and shinier lights.
40 spoilers available doesn't equal tuning to me. Parts that will make an immediate change in the car's performance. Sorry but the SI's parts are all cosmetic and/or pretty worthless tiny HP bumps suspension mods that will make the car more unlivable on a daily basis - which it is already in stock form.
sway bars and lowering the car may make the gti handle better than stock, but you have to remember that the si handles a lot better right out of the box.
I realize that. No matter how much better you make an SI handle, it'll still be loud, econoboxy, cheap inside/out and have little power.
...and you see thats the problem with the aftermarket; it gets to a point where its not so much what car is the best, but what its strong points are....its just that once you start getting into the aftermarket, it shouldn't be completley totally fully and collectively all about money.
to me, just about everything in the world is just about the money. Value to cost ratio. 21k on an SI is too much for a car I felt was inferior to its competition in every way but resale and handling. Nothing you do to a Civic Si will change the cramped back seat, low rent interior, tinny doors, lack of luxury features.
BTW, my knees only comfortably bend to 90 degrees. We drive my mother-in-law's 06 civic hybrid often. The backseat is unlivable for me as the seats are extremely low, requiring me to splay my legs.
but i also realize that the gti is not the all encomapsisng amazing hot hatch with the most amazing interior of all time either.
Ah, for me the GTI's the best compromise. I don't feel like I'm getting into a teenager's car. I don't feel like one of the kids tooling around orange county in a fast and the furious mobile. Yes, you can do some really fnf things to a VW - look at many of the kids at Vortex - but for the most part only the GTI can give me a fun level of performance (not extreme performance, not loud, not showy) matched to a reasonable level of luxury.
No matter what, the Civic SI will never offer the balance. It's one thing and one thing only - a souped up economy car. You're not gonna roll out for a night on the town in a Civic SI.
The civic si would be great for me if I were 20 and broke. At this point in my life, I want a little fun and a little luxury. No luxury can be found in the civic si; just the opposite really.
We're not talking 0-60, btw. Stab the gas at 75 in a SI and it will slowly build - in any gear. Stab the gas in a GTI at 75 and the car will rocket away. This is where I live on the freeway. 75 is cruising; 85-90 is passing. You can do this in a GTI without loudness, without drama. The car simply goes. Likewise, I can let 3 people into the car and not be embarrassed by chincy fabrics, flimsy doors and the constant drone of a fast-and-the-furious muffler.
Get onto a curvy road and the car is fun. Is it as much fun as a 3 series or Miata? No. But it's a compromise and I'm compromising already by getting a 4 door sedan/hatch.
We have different goals/desires. I want a balanced car. My fiancee's A3 pretty much achieves that. Sure I'd like to change the suspension, add a chip and a sway but it's hers and for now it serves out utilitarian needs while providing some semblance of an adult car, without sacrificing fun or getting us into some land-yacht like a 335i or G35.
come on now blue guy! There are plenty of horsepower upgrades for the si, they just aren't in your price range, but dont omit the facts just because they fall short of what YOUR needs are, which happen to be the most bang for the buck, and i understand that. But still to say there are only cosmetic upgrades and tiny horsepower upgrades is far fetched. There is A LOT more, you just aren't willing to make the trade off. And thats fine.
I still think your opinion on the si's interior is a little harsh, again not gti territory, but then again its not trying to be a luxury car either, and yes i think that the gti EXCELS in this area! You gotta remember man i drive a vw everday and i'm huge gti fan! And much to your dismay, they are all souped up versions of cheaper cars, the gti just does an excellent job disguising it.
I think the gti is great compromise; i'd rather have the dsg than a manual, and torque over horsepower. I just don't think the si deserves the harshness, its a really cool car and is good at what it does, just like the gti.
As far as price goes you could look at from the viewpoint of someone who can't pay 25k for a new car. I know that the gti can be had for less, but before you jump on me about it, hear me out. Its very easy (at least where i live) to walk onto a dealer and find and si sedan for under 22k. VERY easy. I'd be hard pressed to find a gti, much less a 4 door for any less than 24500. It can become very pricey very fast. With that extra 3-5 grand, i could put a ballin' turbo on the si and make 300 TO THE WHEELS!
Balances out a bit more huh?
Granted, in all honesty if i was going to spend over 20k on a car, i'd more than likey get the gti because its a hatch and we need it for our puppy and for stuff in general, my wife likes the si but likes the gti's looks and the fact that it comes with a type of auto tranny. But i wouldn't think i have the all-out superior car. I just have one that suits my needs a little better.
I could still roll out for a night on the town in an si though!
agree with ya on the 75+ passing, i live on the freeway too! But the exhaust on the si sounds great! As does the gti's. I dunno about the whole 'without loudness' stuff though, isn't the gti engineered to have the sound filter through the gagues to add some sporting character? I think they talked about it on the dvd.
The doors are NOT flimsy on the civic. Actually i think they have a better thunk than the ones on my rabbit now, honda engineered it that way on purpose. My rabbits doors feel heavier though, if thats what you mean. :confuse:
chintsy? Oh blue guy...
You can definitely outfit an SI with serious engine mods for 4k. I just think the car would be all go and missing the everyday casual, take your mother-in-law to the store balance of a GTI.
As you also pointed out, the 4 door hatch offers a tad more utility and that's more of the balance.
I totally agree about suits needs/desires. I think the GTI is the perfect compromise for me among these cars. And for a little bit of money it can be more sporting without changing the character to maniac-on-wheels.
There was something frantic about the SI. My mother-in-law to be's 06 Civic Hybrid is a composed, simple car that gets solid mileage. Heck, i drove it from LA the other day and got 44 mpg. Fine little car. The weekend before we drove the Si sedan and my fiancee was shocked at how much the character of the car had changed - it went from docile, quiet commuter car to edgy, loud, tight snarling Pomeranian. She would kill me before we'd live with a car like that.
Sorry for harshing the Si. I'm not a big Honda fan - beyond their transmissions - and I have really negative associations of Hondas with the fast and the furious crowds of southern california. I see a Civic, Accord, TL, Integra and I expect it to be driven by a 16 year old with his hat on backwards. It'll probably have cut springs, 18s and a loud muffler too. There's an unkind term people in socal use for Hondas and kids who drive them; shockingly some of my friends have used that term when I expressed passing interest in Honda products.
Not sure if Honda realizes the damage those kids are doing to the brand.
As we have an A3, we're already experiencing the 2.0T/DSG combo. It's sensational. Just don't let an idiot drive the car; a friend drove it last night and he triple downshifted at 55! My fiancee asked him what he was doing and he said, "I couldn't tell if it was shifting, so I kept pulling the lever." Ayecarumba.
Not sure if Honda realizes the damage those kids are doing to the brand.
Not to mention that the Honda's "Fast and Furious" type popularity makes it an attractive target for thieves, thugs, and gangs. I'm pretty sure the insurance companies realize this as well - and charge ($$$$) accordingly...
I love to autocross, but the car has a pretty rubbery feel at the limits; combined with turbo lag and non-defeatable ESC, it would pretty much lunge numbly from cone to cone.
I wanted to love this car so much. Think i got pulled in by the feel of substance (and the turbo). Even though it's not a good autox car, we'd have kept it for years were it not for the reliability issues. (God help the kid who bought it). In the end, neither of us had any affection left for it.
Looking now at Mazda3 (not a speed) or an Si.
I was waiting for someone to say that. There is a problem with that statement. Most people finance vehicle, therefor $3,000-$5,000 is rolled into a payment, you are looking at a $60-$80/month. It's tough to finance just a turbo kit. Most people do not have $3,000-$5,000 laying around to drop in a turbo. You can place it on a credit card, but, who wants to pay the 20% interest most youth have on their credit cards.
My conclusion, the vehicle already equipped with the performance in easier to afford then dropping an expensive turbo kit in a vehicle you are already making payments on. It's tougher to afford.
Ther Civic may have great tuning potential, no disputing that, it just gets very expensive to do so.