You want to talk value? What will that Sonata be worth (market value) in 2 years? 4 years?
Now how about the CamCords?
Look at true cost of owenrship, which includes what the depreciating asset is worth when you exit ownership.
I am not saying that the number will even out, I haven't done the math. I am just saying it is something that needs to be considered.
I looked at MazdaSpeed6, Accord, TL, Passat, A4, Legacy GT SpecB, 3 Series, and C Class. I chose the new Camry SE V6 because it had the best overall package, IMHO, for the money. It gave me the driving enthusiast satisfaction, resale, reliability, and options I wanted. I could have had those things in a MB or BMW ot Acura, but I got them in a Toyota for less money. The Hyundai didn't ahve the options I required. The Accord didn't have the look and feel. The Passat is a depreciation BOMB as is the A4. The Spec B was a decent car, but it was more than the Camry by about $3k (discounted price of both cars, not sticker).
The Sonata doesn't compete with the likes of 3 Series, C Class, A4s, the MazdaSpeed6, the TL etc. The closest thing Hyundai has is the Azera, and it's more a luxo-cruiser than a sports sedan, which is what you were looking for. I am a bit surprised that the Camry stood out in that company, but you got the car that fits you best so that is the important thing.
I like the fact that (i like giving numeric values to help illustrate) with Hyundai, you get 95% of the car, at 80% of the price!
The graduate I think that has been exactly what I have been trying to say. You summed it up the best. However, I think I would go with 97% of the car at 75% of the price, but we are just splitting hairs. I think the only discrepency the Hyundai has at this point in time is their reputation, which is why the 3% difference in cars. Once their reputation catches up to their product then it will be an even playing field.
My question is : 'Why would Hyundai leave that massive amount of money on the table for Toyota and Honda to take?' It's just not good busines.
On the top of the line trims according to the test it's about 88% of the car for 80% of the price currently but why do that as a longterm strategy? In order to fill up the new plant it makes perfect sense. But at the end as the plant comes to capacity would you as the owner keep the price low and 'give away' $5000 on say the last 20,000 - 40,000 units?
IMO the Sonata's not yet at 95% of the top-of-the-line CamCords but the 2007's might be closer. In the base models there is less differentiation in equipment so the 95% is probably correct and it may be 97% with only long term durability as the differing factor. That's where the volume battles will be fought, but again I don't see the artificially low prices surviving very long if the vehicle is as good as reported.
This is just a starting point. Let us get more sophisticated. One can Sonata LX V6 for $19K today. This saves $4000 from MSRP. You put it into CD (%5). In five years your $4,000 will be $5,105. Now the Edmunds true cost to own are as follows
Why are you so concerned about the future prices of Hyundais? If they do go up as you predict, isn't that just goodness for people who buy Sonatas at discounted prices today?
No...the TCO feature uses True Market Value Prices, not MSRP as you seem to think. I believe it was around $20k for the Sonata to start with, which would be about right (not all buyers have owned a Hyundai and can't get that extra $1,000 that you subtract from the price). True Cost also takes in to account interest rates, and loan payments, not the MSRP with no payments, as you seem to think. Look at the feature, check it out. It's done its math. Pretty cool stuff, actually.
I agree, you can buy a CD with that money and make more money, but how many (people in here are exceptions, b/c they know cars better than most) are going to test drive a car, go, you know what, I like that Camry, but I'll take a lesser car and invest the other.
Not many. Most people set a budget for a car, and spend more than they budgeted, because of that "one more option".
BTW, our interest rate was 4.35%, not 7% like you suggest, but again, interest rates are taken into account in this model.
The TCO feature does NOT include all rebates. It also doesn't take into account the time value of money, as cxc was trying to explain I think. That is, if you do save several thousand up front on a car, what do you do with the extra money? What if, for example, you use it to pay off a debt that is at 12% interest? That is an additional, significant savings that the TCO doesn't take into account.
Edmunds TCO calculation is zip code dependent, thus will vary from user to user. I found it to be about $2000 lower in my zip code than thegraduate's. Insurance premium differences and vehicle registration cost differences, I suppose.
I cannot relate to the TCO calculations anyway, as I never have spent the kind of money they list for maintenance and repair in the first five years, even driving the supposedly "inferior" domestic brands that I drive.
That is a bad point, because as someone else pointed out, many buyers in this segment can not afford the $30k, or at least the payments so they dont have the cash to invest!
To comment about the cars not competing with the 3 series and did I get manual. I never said the Hyundai comeptes with it, but in my real world comparo, those were the cars included. I do not want manual so it wasn't an issue. Anyone who deals with Northern VA/Washington DC traffic would be very frustrated with a manual, not to mention the wear and tear on the clutch in bumper to bumper.
Go to www.hmmausa.com and watch how the new plant makes cars. Most automated facility in North America. It could easily be the most advanced assembly plant in whole world. They can output almost twice more cars with same amount of people, compare to conventional facility. Watch those movie then you will get answers Y they can make car so cheap even with paying $25 hour wages.
Don't you ever look at newspaper ads? That's how I got my LX Sonata without Moon and 6 cds for $19,500 back in November. They still had one left out of 3 AD cars, but I did not like the color of the 3rd one. I asked them to match price of the AD on other ones, and they did. Now, some of dealership around my area offers Top LX with Moon and 6cds for $19,500, and the other dealership will under cut that by another $500. Top LX Sonata for $19,000 which is about $500 less than LX Accord on ADs. A Honda dealership will sell a LX Accord for $19,000 if you beg. Or, they will say " If you do not buy today, someone else will buy tomorrow , try other dealership if you can find LX for $19,000". That's what they said when I was looking at Odyssey back in 2003. For Hyundai, All you have to do is bring your ADs in. What was the actual price you were talking about? Obviously you have not stop by a Hyundai dealership yet.
of the 4 sedans is causing quite a stir across the internet. Edmunds has lost some face here and I sure hope they see this and this is getting back to the management/editors. The Camry is way, way over priced. And to say at the end "we believe you get what you pay for"?? what is that? Why not put a BMW in and I'm sure it will win and Yep, "you get what you pay for". Fact is this segment is very price sensitive. Price does matter. I believe for most a $5K difference is going to be a deal breaker. Looks to me Edmunds has forgotten what the average salary is in the U.S. for a working family... I sure hope the price of Camry comes down really fast. With 22K Fusions/Sonata's/G6's/ ect to buy.. this will hurt Toyota..
"Yes, the Sonata is reaching its sales targets this year. But how Hyundai is getting those Sonata sales suggests potential long-term trouble for the automaker's volume leader.
Hyundai is pouring vehicles into daily rental fleets. Retail incentives exceed the entry-mid-sized segment average, according to Power Information Network data. Worse yet, the Sonata takes more days to turn than the segment average. Its transaction prices are declining as well."
"Since Sonata's launch last summer, about 30 percent its sales have been to daily rental fleets, according to CNW Marketing Research of Bandon, Ore. That is on the cusp of being dangerously high because it risks diminishing the brand's reputation, says CNW President Art Spinella."
For a brand that has low awareness among shoppers, fleet sales can be a necessary evil, says Krafcik. He says Sonata fleet sales are right at the mid-sized sedan segment average.
"We need to get butts in seats. Fleet is a way to do that."
"because it risks diminishing the brand's reputation" Is that article talking about Hyundai? Funny! Like Backy said, its matter of making more people test drive Sonata for who otherwise won't test drive one. It's not matter of more sales numbers, its their tactic for the future of Sonata.
"It's not matter of more sales numbers, its their tactic for the future of Sonata."
I disagree; plenty of folks would be driving the Sonata at even a rate of 20% to fleet- this would be 30,000 cars nationwide in one year, if sales are at 150K. It is a tactic for the future, no doubt, but 30% seems high to be SOLELY a tactic for the future and not one for current sales. Hyundai rep also makes the claim that this % is at the average for the segment- really? Well, if Hyundai wants to be average all of a sudden thats fine. But the second and first place finishers of Edmunds.com recent comparo run at 2% and 11-12%, respectively.
I buy, somewhat, Hyundai's argument about Days To Turn.
But what Hyundai didnt explain, why, just 12 months after the vehicle's debut.... average RETAIL incentives are most recently 18% worse than industry average....
You are seriously joking right? Do you honestly feel the Camry XLE V-6 could compete against the likes of Audi, BMW, VW and Acura? They would blow the doors off the Toyota.
There is the Lexus brand to compete with Acura, Audi and BMW.
Toyota competes with VW and beats the crap out of VW. Just look at the sale numbers for both brands for the past 30 years. Especially when you compare Passat against Camry, it's like smarshing an egg to a rock.
A car that can take a curvy road at high velocity, and beg for more. The Camry is not that car.
The sad fact is that the over-priced Passat V6 cannot beat Camry V6 in 0-60 and slalom tests. So the performance thing is your subjective judgement (in other words, imagination) only.
The Camry might compete with the ES 350, but that is because it is the same car. I have never once seen the ES350 compared to an A6, 5 series BMW, or any other performance cars. It simply cannot compete.
If Camry is the same car as the ES350, then A6 is the same car as the Passat (and A4 = Jetta).
Not saying I don't agree with what you are saying Killerbunny...
But the Camry and Es350 have WAY WAY more in common than the A6 and Passat do current...and definitely more in common than the A4 and Jetta do (The A4, Passat and Jetta share that 2.0T engine) otherwise...its the Passat and Jetta that have as more in common with each other than any other VW counterparts.
The old Passat and A6/A4 shared much in commmon...the NEW Passat and Jetta share more in common these days.
Dazzled by robots? I will stick with the contention that while Hyundai is SotA since it's the newest, Georgetown and Marysville are simply more productive. In addition to there being a learning curve, I am certain that there isnt a sudden new technology that Hyundai has discovered that is twice as productive as the other two plants.
Neither Georgetown or Marysville are conventional plants.
80% of Camry's will soon be sold @ $21K or less. As I noted previoulsy.. the vehicle tested is the top of the line trims, which is mainly sold to 3-4% of the population.
In Edmunds defense they just did a comparo on midsized sedans under $22K. Readers should be decerning enough to know what audience is being attracted by the latest comparo.
There is the Lexus brand to compete with Acura, Audi and BMW
There seems to be some notion out there that Acura 'competes' with Lexus, Audi ,and BMW buyers. Maybe in performance and features, but not in price. 90% of the Acuras cars sold cost less than $33,000 (the RL doesn't sell in big numbers). 90% of Lexuses, Audis, and BMWs sell for a helluva lot more jack that $33,000. More like $45-55,000.
The top end Camry is a beautiful thing, but clearly isn't in the same price bucket as most of the models in this comparison.
Hyundai's strategy isn't hard to understand. They are far behind in market share and in public perception. They are buying "butts in seats"--however they can. Then build from there. It is a common strategy in the business world--buying market share.
Your numbers are your perception based on what YOU sell. XLE V6s nationally comprise a higher percentage of Camry sales than simply 3-4% Indeed, according to Toyota's projections, 60% of sales for the Camry (2007) will be 4 cylinders (according to Motor Trend March 06), 8% of sales will be Hybrids.... you do the math... the rest are V6s, and theres only 3 trim levels of V6 to be spread across 32%....
80% of Camrys sold under $21K would mean that 80% of Camrys are CE and LE 4s, with minimal to no options. That is simply false.
Guys, we're talking about a car company whose business is selling as many cars as possible for profit. Who cares what, where, when or how? Can more established/reputable companies like Mazda, Suburu, or even DaimlerChrysler sell that many mid-sizers, NO? I give 'em credit, not hell. They are breaking into Altima territory with this many sales and it is quite an accomplishment. Hyundai is the fourth best selling import and some of you guys make it sound like it's wrong or something. It's a fact and denial won't make Hyundai go away.
Point taken, but let's get the numbers straight. 32% of Acura vehicle sales are $42K+ due mostly to the MDX. The comparative numbers for Lexus and BMW are 45% and 52%, respectively.
Keep in mind, different areas, different sales. That is why I went with one site that could be seen by everyone. The Sonata actually listed its TMV at $22,108 - $1,000 rebate (it lists that too) which equals $21,108 TMV. This is down from $23,495, or about 2400 less than sticker. The Accord's TMV is $25,857, down from $27,850, with no rebates/marketing support at this time. This is $2,000 less than sticker. You can do this yourself with my Birmingham Zip Code, 35209.
What dealership do you have to beg for $$ off sticker? I'm guessing Supercenter? None of our 17 vehicles (in 24 years, mind you) have been begged over (My 06 EX actually went for less than TMV (which, and that was the offer THEY MADE US, less than invoice + destination=less than $22,000).
I think is has a lot to do with individual dealers; some are great, some should be shot. We have only dealt with on dealership, ever (for Hondas), its a small town dealership, where the customers are generally local to that section of town. It's not a supercenter, which is more likely to give you a "take the deal or leave" kind of treatment.
I did notice that for this new model that they had jumped the percentage V6's and dropped the percentage of 4c's for this new model, subject to acceptance by the market of course.
The numbers I had before, through 2006, were 80-85% 4c and 15-20% V6's. These were different than our market where the 4c were nearly 90%, mostly in the LE, standard/CE, XLE with a very occasional XLE V6. I know that you have good info so if there is specific source I'd be very interested.
Note that Edmund's TMV doesn't include the HMFC $1,000 rebate. Even those who wish to pay cash should still finance the car and then pay off the loan asap. Total cost of the loan, if paid off asap, shouldn't exceed $100, netting an additional saviings of +/- $900 compared to the TMV.
This bootleg method may have been included, we don't really know. They put financing charges into the "final cash price" section of the TCO. I didn't mean to start an ordeal with my TCO thing, just trying to show two things:
1.) The reduced resale value of the Hyundai doesn't seem to hurt it after 5 years, and that
2.) The higher intial cost of the Toyonda don't seem to hurt them after 5 years, either.
When talking about hundreds of dollars in changes, we still come out to a total cost difference of less than $1,500, not a big deal when you consider the fact that smaller issues like insurance rates and repair costs (which vary wildly on invidual cases) can make that much difference in that amount of time.
Expect between $39,000 and $41,000 to drive 75,000 miles for 5 years in any of these 3 cars.
The Altima is rarely talk about in this thread, but I have a feeling that the new 2007 Altima is going to surprise a lot of people.
Word is that they are specifically making an effort to improve the interior, which is the current model's biggest flaw.
They are putting CVT in all automatic models, which should help with both mpg and acceleration.
Also, apparently they are giving it a new platform to combat torque steer better, which is important because we all KNOW that it will have more than 268 hp and 248 torque.
After all, the Altima is the car that started this crazy horsepower wars in this segment.
In any case, we should know on April 12th what they got up their sleeve.
Plus they will have an I4 hybrid variant, using Toyota's HSD technology, to go head-to-head with the Camry Hybrid.
What I am curious to see is if Nissan can keep the pricing on the new Altima reasonable, more in the Fusion/Sonata range than the Accord/Camry range. The other thing I am wondering is if Nissan will offer features like Bluetooth and Smart Key even on their low-end Altima models. If they can offer these features on a $14,000 Versa, why not an I4 Altima?
"What I am curious to see is if Nissan can keep the pricing on the new Altima reasonable, more in the Fusion/Sonata range than the Accord/Camry range."
No way the Altima price will be in the Sonata range. Since 2001, the Altima price has always been about the same or a bit higher compared to comparably equipped Camrys and Accords.
Yes, I know the MDX is an SUV, but here's the larger point I made:
BMW and Lexus sell overall at a higher price than Acura, but the overlap in sales is much greater than leadfoot6 asserted. For example, the TL accounted for 52% of Acura 2005 car sales, while the comparably priced ES and IS contributed 55% of Lexus 2005 car sales.
The TMV shows $1,000 rebate on a Sonata LX. This is a "rebate to all". It does not show rebates of $2,000 (the rebate to all plus the financing rebate for those who finance, by necessity or by choice to take advantage of the savings). Unlike the owners' loyaty rebate, the first two rebates are available to anyone.
But, you are right the insurance and taxes are quite variable and I question their validity in calculating TMV. In CT we pay a local property tax on cars. Cars are assessed at 70% of fair market value. The tax rates are expressed in "mills" (mill = $1 per thousand of assessment). My town's current mill rate is 30.38. A neighboring town has a mill rate of 65. A $20,000 car would be assessed @ 14,000 and a $23,000 car would be assessed at 16,100. Multiple each of those assessments by the different mill rates and I think you will agree that this variable cost to own can be significantly different each year. The $20,000 car in my town would be taxed just under $430 the first year while someone with the $23,000 car in the other town would be taxed just under $1050 the first year. If both cars were registered in my town, there would still be a difference of about $65 in the first year tax. As the car depreciates, the assessment reduces...unfortunately mill rates generally increase somewhat offsetting the lower valuation.
The insurance differences are even more complex, town of garaging, miles to work, age, marital status, coverages and limits carried, how long licensed, prior insurance status (any lapses in last 6 months), and of course individual driving record.
Anyone comparing TCO should disregard taxes and insurance to eliminate costs that are just too complex for Edmund's to reasonable estimate.
Of course, financing charges will also vary greatly depending on the purchaser's credit, amount financed, length of loan and whatever action the FED takes prior to the purchase. A 1/4% bump in rates on a $10,000, 60 month note is quite different than the same 1/4% on a $15,000, 60 month note.
Did you watch movie yet? Watch the movie and comeback. Once again, www.hmmausa.com its under Media Center.
Lets try not to use our imagination when there is the fact we can go by.
BTW, I have not called "Georgetown or Marysville" as a conventional Facility. I was talking about conventional facilities around the world. Man! its hard to say anything in this forum without being attacked.
Agreed. I'd argue that the Altima is perhaps the most overpriced of the Camry/Accord/Altima trio- option up an 3.5SL plus NAV, and it costs about the same ($30,855) as the NEW Camry XLE V6, which offers more by way of content.
dramatic change to the back, yet everything else looks the same exteriorly. I also heard interior is something really big they will work on, as well revise its already sick engine(best v6 hands down during its time).
But that leaves other parts of this car less desired for(not very quiet, pricey, not as tightly constructed as maxima)
I guess we won't know until it actually does come out. To be honest i don't like any nissan cars, cept maybe maxima, 350 z since they actually make those cars and infinitys with care.(owned a ser, and it was worst constructed car)
The 2008 accord should be really good car, but by 2009 the new hyundai sonata is going to come out. (hyundai at the moment working on making an engine better and more efficeint than hondayota)
Comments
Now how about the CamCords?
Look at true cost of owenrship, which includes what the depreciating asset is worth when you exit ownership.
I am not saying that the number will even out, I haven't done the math. I am just saying it is something that needs to be considered.
I looked at MazdaSpeed6, Accord, TL, Passat, A4, Legacy GT SpecB, 3 Series, and C Class. I chose the new Camry SE V6 because it had the best overall package, IMHO, for the money. It gave me the driving enthusiast satisfaction, resale, reliability, and options I wanted. I could have had those things in a MB or BMW ot Acura, but I got them in a Toyota for less money. The Hyundai didn't ahve the options I required. The Accord didn't have the look and feel. The Passat is a depreciation BOMB as is the A4. The Spec B was a decent car, but it was more than the Camry by about $3k (discounted price of both cars, not sticker).
I do not think it is available.
On the other hand it is the only transmission available on Spec B and MS6.
It is hard to imagine to pick Camry over 3 series, A4 or Legacy when one looks for driver's car.
Krzys
The graduate I think that has been exactly what I have been trying to say. You summed it up the best. However, I think I would go with 97% of the car at 75% of the price, but we are just splitting hairs. I think the only discrepency the Hyundai has at this point in time is their reputation, which is why the 3% difference in cars. Once their reputation catches up to their product then it will be an even playing field.
Did they take care of the slide off driver's seat yet?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For $6K cheaper, my seat sits like a big pile of money. Very comfortable, thank you!
All seriousness aside, the firm seats are no reason to pass up this car! Not even close!
'Why would Hyundai leave that massive amount of money on the table for Toyota and Honda to take?'
It's just not good busines.
On the top of the line trims according to the test it's about 88% of the car for 80% of the price currently but why do that as a longterm strategy? In order to fill up the new plant it makes perfect sense. But at the end as the plant comes to capacity would you as the owner keep the price low and 'give away' $5000 on say the last 20,000 - 40,000 units?
IMO the Sonata's not yet at 95% of the top-of-the-line CamCords but the 2007's might be closer. In the base models there is less differentiation in equipment so the 95% is probably correct and it may be 97% with only long term durability as the differing factor. That's where the volume battles will be fought, but again I don't see the artificially low prices surviving very long if the vehicle is as good as reported.
Accord EXV6 : $39,491
Camry XLE V6: $39,342
Sonata LXV6: $40,040
Not a good deal for the Sonata even if you feel all three cars are equals in everything (which many concede, they aren't).
One can Sonata LX V6 for $19K today. This saves $4000 from MSRP. You put it into CD (%5). In five years your $4,000 will be $5,105. Now the Edmunds true cost to own are as follows
Accord EXV6 : $39,491
Camry XLE V6: $39,342
Sonata LXV6: $40,040 - $5105 = $34,935
Because Accord and Camry cost minimal 5,000$ more than Sonata, and 7% interest rate is common, the Edmunds true cost to own are as follows
Accord EXV6 : $39,491 + $2,017 = $4,1508
Camry XLE V6: $39,342 + $2,017 = $4,1359
Sonata LXV6: $40,040 - $5105 = $34,935
The real world costs are likely as follows
Accord EXV6 : $4,1508
Camry XLE V6: $4,1359
Sonata LXV6: $34,935
I agree, you can buy a CD with that money and make more money, but how many (people in here are exceptions, b/c they know cars better than most) are going to test drive a car, go, you know what, I like that Camry, but I'll take a lesser car and invest the other.
Not many. Most people set a budget for a car, and spend more than they budgeted, because of that "one more option".
BTW, our interest rate was 4.35%, not 7% like you suggest, but again, interest rates are taken into account in this model.
Accord EXV6 : $39,491
Camry XLE V6: $39,342
Sonata LXV6: $40,040
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Does that take into account that:
Many people are re-financing for lower interest?
The Sonata has a 5/50 bumper-t-bumper warranty?
I cannot relate to the TCO calculations anyway, as I never have spent the kind of money they list for maintenance and repair in the first five years, even driving the supposedly "inferior" domestic brands that I drive.
To comment about the cars not competing with the 3 series and did I get manual. I never said the Hyundai comeptes with it, but in my real world comparo, those were the cars included. I do not want manual so it wasn't an issue. Anyone who deals with Northern VA/Washington DC traffic would be very frustrated with a manual, not to mention the wear and tear on the clutch in bumper to bumper.
i didn't see any credit for the much better gas mileage from the fusion.
"Yes, the Sonata is reaching its sales targets this year. But how Hyundai is getting those Sonata sales suggests potential long-term trouble for the automaker's volume leader.
Hyundai is pouring vehicles into daily rental fleets. Retail incentives exceed the entry-mid-sized segment average, according to Power Information Network data. Worse yet, the Sonata takes more days to turn than the segment average. Its transaction prices are declining as well."
"Since Sonata's launch last summer, about 30 percent its sales have been to daily rental fleets, according to CNW Marketing Research of Bandon, Ore. That is on the cusp of being dangerously high because it risks diminishing the brand's reputation, says CNW President Art Spinella."
food for thought...
For a brand that has low awareness among shoppers, fleet sales can be a necessary evil, says Krafcik. He says Sonata fleet sales are right at the mid-sized sedan segment average.
"We need to get butts in seats. Fleet is a way to do that."
Is that article talking about Hyundai? Funny!
Like Backy said, its matter of making more people test drive Sonata for who otherwise won't test drive one.
It's not matter of more sales numbers, its their tactic for the future of Sonata.
I disagree; plenty of folks would be driving the Sonata at even a rate of 20% to fleet- this would be 30,000 cars nationwide in one year, if sales are at 150K. It is a tactic for the future, no doubt, but 30% seems high to be SOLELY a tactic for the future and not one for current sales. Hyundai rep also makes the claim that this % is at the average for the segment- really? Well, if Hyundai wants to be average all of a sudden thats fine. But the second and first place finishers of Edmunds.com recent comparo run at 2% and 11-12%, respectively.
I buy, somewhat, Hyundai's argument about Days To Turn.
But what Hyundai didnt explain, why, just 12 months after the vehicle's debut.... average RETAIL incentives are most recently 18% worse than industry average....
~alpha
That's hard to quantify.
Can I compare Lexus ES330 with MB S600 and claim the ES330 is 80% of the car and 25% the price?
There is the Lexus brand to compete with Acura, Audi and BMW.
Toyota competes with VW and beats the crap out of VW. Just look at the sale numbers for both brands for the past 30 years. Especially when you compare Passat against Camry, it's like smarshing an egg to a rock.
A car that can take a curvy road at high velocity, and beg for more. The Camry is not that car.
The sad fact is that the over-priced Passat V6 cannot beat Camry V6 in 0-60 and slalom tests. So the performance thing is your subjective judgement (in other words, imagination) only.
The Camry might compete with the ES 350, but that is because it is the same car. I have never once seen the ES350 compared to an A6, 5 series BMW, or any other performance cars. It simply cannot compete.
If Camry is the same car as the ES350, then A6 is the same car as the Passat (and A4 = Jetta).
But the Camry and Es350 have WAY WAY more in common than the A6 and Passat do current...and definitely more in common than the A4 and Jetta do (The A4, Passat and Jetta share that 2.0T engine) otherwise...its the Passat and Jetta that have as more in common with each other than any other VW counterparts.
The old Passat and A6/A4 shared much in commmon...the NEW Passat and Jetta share more in common these days.
But I agree otherwise.
Neither Georgetown or Marysville are conventional plants.
In Edmunds defense they just did a comparo on midsized sedans under $22K. Readers should be decerning enough to know what audience is being attracted by the latest comparo.
There seems to be some notion out there that Acura 'competes' with Lexus, Audi ,and BMW buyers. Maybe in performance and features, but not in price. 90% of the Acuras cars sold cost less than $33,000 (the RL doesn't sell in big numbers). 90% of Lexuses, Audis, and BMWs sell for a helluva lot more jack that $33,000. More like $45-55,000.
The top end Camry is a beautiful thing, but clearly isn't in the same price bucket as most of the models in this comparison.
80% of Camrys sold under $21K would mean that 80% of Camrys are CE and LE 4s, with minimal to no options. That is simply false.
~alpha
What dealership do you have to beg for $$ off sticker? I'm guessing Supercenter? None of our 17 vehicles (in 24 years, mind you) have been begged over (My 06 EX actually went for less than TMV (which, and that was the offer THEY MADE US, less than invoice + destination=less than $22,000).
I think is has a lot to do with individual dealers; some are great, some should be shot. We have only dealt with on dealership, ever (for Hondas), its a small town dealership, where the customers are generally local to that section of town. It's not a supercenter, which is more likely to give you a "take the deal or leave" kind of treatment.
The numbers I had before, through 2006, were 80-85% 4c and 15-20% V6's. These were different than our market where the 4c were nearly 90%, mostly in the LE, standard/CE, XLE with a very occasional XLE V6. I know that you have good info so if there is specific source I'd be very interested.
1.) The reduced resale value of the Hyundai doesn't seem to hurt it after 5 years, and that
2.) The higher intial cost of the Toyonda don't seem to hurt them after 5 years, either.
When talking about hundreds of dollars in changes, we still come out to a total cost difference of less than $1,500, not a big deal when you consider the fact that smaller issues like insurance rates and repair costs (which vary wildly on invidual cases) can make that much difference in that amount of time.
Expect between $39,000 and $41,000 to drive 75,000 miles for 5 years in any of these 3 cars.
MDX isn't a "car".
Word is that they are specifically making an effort to improve the interior, which is the current model's biggest flaw.
They are putting CVT in all automatic models, which should help with both mpg and acceleration.
Also, apparently they are giving it a new platform to combat torque steer better, which is important because we all KNOW that it will have more than 268 hp and 248 torque.
After all, the Altima is the car that started this crazy horsepower wars in this segment.
In any case, we should know on April 12th what they got up their sleeve.
What I am curious to see is if Nissan can keep the pricing on the new Altima reasonable, more in the Fusion/Sonata range than the Accord/Camry range. The other thing I am wondering is if Nissan will offer features like Bluetooth and Smart Key even on their low-end Altima models. If they can offer these features on a $14,000 Versa, why not an I4 Altima?
No way the Altima price will be in the Sonata range. Since 2001, the Altima price has always been about the same or a bit higher compared to comparably equipped Camrys and Accords.
BMW and Lexus sell overall at a higher price than Acura, but the overlap in sales is much greater than leadfoot6 asserted. For example, the TL accounted for 52% of Acura 2005 car sales, while the comparably priced ES and IS contributed 55% of Lexus 2005 car sales.
But, you are right the insurance and taxes are quite variable and I question their validity in calculating TMV. In CT we pay a local property tax on cars. Cars are assessed at 70% of fair market value. The tax rates are expressed in "mills" (mill = $1 per thousand of assessment). My town's current mill rate is 30.38. A neighboring town has a mill rate of 65. A $20,000 car would be assessed @ 14,000 and a $23,000 car would be assessed at 16,100. Multiple each of those assessments by the different mill rates and I think you will agree that this variable cost to own can be significantly different each year. The $20,000 car in my town would be taxed just under $430 the first year while someone with the $23,000 car in the other town would be taxed just under $1050 the first year. If both cars were registered in my town, there would still be a difference of about $65 in the first year tax. As the car depreciates, the assessment reduces...unfortunately mill rates generally increase somewhat offsetting the lower valuation.
The insurance differences are even more complex, town of garaging, miles to work, age, marital status, coverages and limits carried, how long licensed, prior insurance status (any lapses in last 6 months), and of course individual driving record.
Anyone comparing TCO should disregard taxes and insurance to eliminate costs that are just too complex for Edmund's to reasonable estimate.
Of course, financing charges will also vary greatly depending on the purchaser's credit, amount financed, length of loan and whatever action the FED takes prior to the purchase. A 1/4% bump in rates on a $10,000, 60 month note is quite different than the same 1/4% on a $15,000, 60 month note.
Once again, www.hmmausa.com its under Media Center.
Lets try not to use our imagination when there is the fact we can go by.
BTW, I have not called "Georgetown or Marysville" as a conventional Facility. I was talking about conventional facilities around the world. Man! its hard to say anything in this forum without being attacked.
~alpha
But that leaves other parts of this car less desired for(not very quiet, pricey, not as tightly constructed as maxima)
I guess we won't know until it actually does come out. To be honest i don't like any nissan cars, cept maybe maxima, 350 z since they actually make those cars and infinitys with care.(owned a ser, and it was worst constructed car)
The 2008 accord should be really good car, but by 2009 the new hyundai sonata is going to come out. (hyundai at the moment working on making an engine better and more efficeint than hondayota)