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Comments
- 318 Miles
- 14.77 Gallons
- 21.53 mpg
Approximately 60/40 city/highway miles.
Total miles on car; 2554. Curious that gas mileage actually went down from the last report, even with a significant increase in highway miles. The weather has been colder lately, translating into longer warmup times for car which leads to decreased mileage ... this could partially explain the discrepancy. Camry still breaking in ... I hope to average 25 mpg city and 34+ mpg highway once I reach 7500 miles on the odometer (+/- 2500 miles).
Last winter the mileage declined as well.
Also, I wanted to follow up on dealer response to my inquiries about the MPG this past september. I succeeded in making a second appointment with the original dealer whom I bought the car from to have the mileage checked (the first time, after about 2 months and ~6 tankfuls, they didn't even turn on the ignition during the analysis, the car was returned to me with a report that says "no error codes stored").
For the second check, I called Toyota regional customer service center, who had a representative and a service advisor from the dealer call me; the service advisor offered to schedule a time for a Toyota factory technician to be present during the inspection. This was to be about 3 or 4 weeks in the future. Two days before the car was to be brought in, the service advisor called me to cancel the appointment because of my "strong words" and I should take my business elsewhere (I hadn't spoken to him at all since the appointment was set). I informed him we had not spoken, that he was simply not honoring what was agreed.
After reporting the matter to Toyota's regional customer service center, they set me up with another dealer, but did not arrange a Toyota representative to be present. I gave them copies of every gas reciept since the car was purchased, and a log of the mileage kept (see my earlier post for mpg ~17-18 pure city, 26-28 pure highway).
Judging from the odometer, the second dealer did actually drive the car ~50 miles. They reported to me they couldn't find anything wrong, and showed me what was largely computer printouts. They did not allow me to review the technician's notes, even though the cover page said "fuel consumption test not completed".
I took their loaner, a 2005 camry, for a 2 hour test drive on 80+% freeway, and it seemed to use as much or more gas than my 2004, (23.8 mpg).
For my next new car, I will take a rental of same for a 400 mile gas consumption test before slapping down another 20K on another guzzling camry based on sales claims.
Gas mileage has gradually improved from about 29 to 35 mpg, due I suppose to 4 factors as we moved east -- warmer temps, lower altitudes, flatter terrain, and lower speeds. Most interesting. This is a 2004 Camry 4-cyl. with the 4-speed auto. Start miles was just over 29,000.
I'll follow up with more details when I get home.
terrain: flat
IMO, no chance of that, so don't keep your hopes up, guill. I did an extensive search of all of the posts of MPG on this website and found that those who boasted 30+ mpg invariably did so based on a single tankful (which I attribute to an incomplete fillup) instead of a series (continuous fillups and odometer records) or a "computer" readout, with some providing so little data that I wondered if it wasn't just a "guess".
Of those that reported a series, only one party reported as much as 28 mpg (all others lower), that was in the 2004 4-speed; he got reduced mileage in a newer 2005 5-speed automatic he bought subsequently. As I recall, he lives in a rural area with little, if any true, city driving. He reported ~30+ mpg once in a series of two tankfuls at 100% freeway. Expectations of routine 34 mpg fuel economy on this car are not only unreasonable, they just don't (and likely won't) happen. Even I have got one 30+ mpg tankful. But on a routine basis, NO.
My guess is you will do NO MORE than 17 and 26 in the long term, which your 21.5 on a 60/40 would put you right in the middle.
Look at Consumer reports to see real world accurately measured highway mileage for a Camry. It is well over 30 (don't have it infront of me. They even got 33 mpg with the Avalon.
If my 6 cyl Sienna at 4,200 lbs gets 28 mpg at 65 a 4-cyl Camry weighing 3,200 lbs can certainly do much better.
Sounds like you're talking about me. Actually I got ~35 mpg on freeway trips with two fillups on the '04 Camry 4-cylinder, 4-speed auto. So far, I haven't gotten better than 31-32 mpg on long trips with the '05 4-cyl. 5-speed auto.
But now, I've got some continuous long-trip data (cross-country) on the '04 Camry using the traditional trip meter divided by gallons used method. Keep in mind that the car was fairly heavily loaded this time, with 3 adults, a full trunk, and additional cargo in the left rear seat and floor. The car sagged somewhat in the rear, to the point that a few oncoming drivers "flashed" us at night because our low-beams were aimed upward somewhat.
We traveled mainly off the interstates, on 2-lane roads, some nearly deserted. Speed limits are quite high in the West (65 mph in most states and 70 in Nevada). Temps were mild in LA, but very cold in the West, moderate in Missouri and Illinois, colder again in Indiana, Ohio, and West Virginia. We did not drive straight through, but stopped in national parks and small towns along the way (and drove around in these).
23.6 mpg: 289 miles in L.A. traffic + a side trip to northern San Diego County.
26.7 mpg: 379 miles, L.A. traffic, plus L.A. to Bishop, east central CA.
29.2 mpg: 316 miles, to Ely, eastern NV.
32.4 mpg: 403 miles, to Green River, eastern UT.
30.3 mpg: 429 miles, to Salida, east of the Rockies in CO.
31.2 mpg: 476 miles, to Spearville, western KS.
28.5 mpg: 409 miles, to Kansas City, MO.
35.5 mpg: 547 miles, to Spencer, western IN
25.5 mpg: 130 miles, to Bloomington and Indianapolis, IN, including driving in Indy on Christmas day.
31.1 mpg: 485 miles, Indianapolis to Elkins, north central WV.
Average for entire trip: 29.8 mpg (3865 miles, 129.6 gallons)
Average excluding first tank (LA traffic): 30.5 mpg (3575 miles, 117.4 gallons)
I haven't yet refilled the tank after arriving home in central VA yesterday.
So it seems to me with a lighter load, warmer temps, and continuous driving (no slowing to look at parks and towns), you should be able to do at least a few mpg better.
My guess is you will do NO MORE than 17 and 26 in the long term, which your 21.5 on a 60/40 would put you right in the middle."
phd86,
Perhaps your theory will be correct, however I submit that the few accounts (of fuel mileage) you've located on this website don't accurately represent a normal population. Respectfully, I'm a bit skeptical of any conclusions drawn from some anecdotal accounts without conducting a more complete analysis.
Consumer Reports did conduct some mpg tests under controlled conditions. They averaged 24 mpg overall and averaged 34 mpg highway. Test vehicle was a 2005 Toyota Camry 2.4 4-cyl 5-spd auto.
BTW, what did you get your doctoral in?
Of course, not all gas pumps are the same, and I don't want to take the risk of gas spilling out onto the car (or me). But most importantly, my long trip averaged out the mileage by using multiple tankfuls, a criticism of Phd before that so many people had based their mileage on 1 or 2 tanks.
Based on what I got, I think Consumer Reports is right on the money, considering they don't run with a load or at higher altitudes like I did.
I think Phd has a real problem with his car, based on his posts, but I don't know how you get Toyota to acknowledge it, what with the plethora of variants that affect gas mileage.
210delray, I intended no offence by describing the reports (including yours) regarding observed Camry MPG as anecdotal. I was referring to the common definition of anecdotal, i.e. based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers .
Again, no offence intended. Actually I find real-world observations very valuable, quite often they can be the more accurate results.
"I think Phd has a real problem with his car, based on his posts, but I don't know how you get Toyota to acknowledge it, what with the plethora of variants that affect gas mileage."
Yeah, tough one here. Previous to my Camry I owned a Honda Odyssey and visited a forum very similar to this one. We also had a poster who insisted Odyssey's weren't capable of achieving EPA estimates, though many of us actually exceeded the EPA's estimates on a consistent basis.
On my cars in general, I've been able to at least equal the EPA's city rating and exceed the highway rating. However, this has NOT been the case with my 2005 Camry on the highway (the car not used for the cross-country trip).
How many miles do you have on your 05 Camry? The reason I ask is that the general school of thought seems to be that gas mileage improves after a car "breaks in." This typically seems to occur somewhere between 5000 and 10000 miles. I'm not mechanically inept, however I'm not certain of the explanation behind this phenomenon.
Anyway, for what it's worth, the '04 Camry on its initial long trip (central Va to NYC and back) got 35 mpg, averaged over 2 tankfuls. The trip started at only 1020 miles, with 2 adults and light luggage. EPA ratings for the '04 car are 23 city and 32 highway.
See the "Toyota Camry Owners: MPG-Real World Numbers" thread for more information:
/direct/view/.ef7f8e9/66!make=Toyota&model=Camry&ed_mak- - - eindex=.ef7f8e9
- 300.1 Miles
- 15.15 Gallons
- 19.8 mpg
100% city miles
Total miles on car; 2854
Regardless of the absolute accuracy of the trip computer (the one on my Highlander consistently reads about 1 mpg higher than actual), I would assume it's pretty consistent. The point of the column was that driving habits SIGNIFICANTLY influence gas mileage (I doubt that anyone would disagree with that). He also took issue with the anecdotal data that pretty much everyone relies on.
What I found most interesting is that there was a 5 mpg or more drop for every 10 mph speed increase. Maybe the 26 mpg in my SE-V6 at 75+ mph isn't so bad after all
yes - I was referring to you as being what appears to be the absolute top end of the fuel economy range reported on this website.
All I can ad with reference to load factor, temperature, and continuous driving, is that I have no other people or significant luggage in the car, the outside temperature (for distance trips) is mainly 60-90 (central california valley), and there is no significant traffic or stops on the freeway reports.
Overall, the reports indicate we are dealing with a vehicle that yields a long term average of somewhere in the range of 26-31 mpg on the freeway, probably biased towards the lower end of that range. But not 33-34 mpg.
I'm curious as to what your thoughts are regarding my response to your reply--message #60.
Again, I'm a bit skeptical of any conclusions drawn from some anecdotal accounts without conducting a more complete analysis.
I suggest you examine some credible reports before categorically determining that the Camry isn't capable of achieving EPA mpg estimates.
As I stated in my reply, Consumer Reports did conduct some mpg tests under controlled conditions. They averaged 24 mpg overall and averaged 34 mpg highway. The test vehicle was a 2005 Toyota Camry 2.4 4-cyl 5-spd auto. I believe this test is much more credible than a few reports of tests conducted under unknown conditions.
I would be interested in the details of your study ... how many reports did you locate on this site, did you ensure the reports were categorized by same type vehicle/engine/transmission, did you group results according to region of country to account for differences in test conditions--such as elevation above sea level, etc, etc.
I've been able to better EPA estimates in most vehicles I've owned and matched their estimates in the remaining vehicles.
I would still like to hear a response back from phd ... interesting that he would offer a critique of my post yet choose not to respond to my rebuttal.
- 365.2 Miles
- 16.00 Gallons
- 22.8 mpg
95/5 city/highway miles
Total miles on car--3219
About the reports of the 2004 4-cyl Camry getting better highway mileage than the 2005 4-cyl Camry. Maybe the fuel consumption is not determined solely by the engine rpm. Maybe the VVT-i and fuel injection vary the fuel-air mixture and valve timing, so that the higher-geared 5-speed auto in the 2005 uses a richer fuel-air ratio in order to produce enough torque/HP at the highway rpm to keep the car moving, while the 4-speed auto in the 2004 with virtually the same engine running at a higher rpm for a fixed speed uses a leaner fuel-air ratio because it is higher up in the torque/HP curve. This is pure speculation.
Here's my response to your request to respond to my response to you (your post #63, after my post #60).
This all has to do with what has been reported as to mileage on the toyota camry in the recent vintage. So I evaluated what others had been saying on this website. Guill wanted to know what my educational background was, and what I actually did. Below is a summary:
My doctoral is in environmental science, I did a master's before that, have two undergraduate degrees, and did three postdoctoral appointments since in various things (microbiology, database management, aquatic biology), before settling into government work:
As for my analysis of the posts on this web-site, I did so via the following procedure:
1. advanced search for mpg and mileage in text for the toyota forum.
2. identified unique contributers (24, excluding myself)
which met the screening criteria of
4 cylinder
camry 2002-2005
automatic (could verify most, but not all)
A smaller number of posters had 6-cylinder cars, which were excluded.
3. I recorded the estimates, then assigned one of several codes based on the discussion. This is just what was reported. If a poster began with a guess or spot-check and later followed up with a continuous record, he was deemed continuous and his guesses were excluded.
a) guess - the post indicated that they did not calculate mileage. Looked for words such as "gets about", or "I estimate", or "seems to get", or in the range of 26-28.
b) spot-check - posts in this category indicated that they did 1 to 3 tanks (at most). This was either explicit in the post or implicit (i.e. "I rented a camry for the weekend and drove a total of [500-1,000] miles".
c) continuous - these posts had evidence that the person continuously recorded gas receipts. The poster stated averages and maxima and minima, calculated to the decimal point, and/or provided a list of miles and fuel purchased.
The results are as follows:
12 out of 24 unique posts were pure guesses. There was no evidence that the car owners calculated anything and mostly evidence that they did not.
6 out of 24 unique posts measured mpg on single tankfuls to a maximum of 3 tanks. In 2 of 6 posts, the car was rented. The other 4 posts were the first tank driven on the car, except for one post in which the owner drove 200 miles city followed by 200 miles freeway, filling up between them.
6 out of 24 unique posts appeared to record fuel consumption continuously (some of these may not have, and several others may have, but I could not determine that).
Of interest, here is a summary of those particular posts:
210delray #7926 - 05 LE - 26 mpg freeway
210delray #7432 - 04 LE - 26.9 mpg (supecedes msg #7926)
hank2 #7653 - 04 LE - 26, then 28 mpg, max 29 mpg, all hwy
slimwolf #7351 - 05 LE - 26.7 mpg, "mixed"
moomoo #7349 - "yet to exceed" 19 mpg (this is included because of the ease in determining 20 mpg, and his post indicated he was preparing for arbitration and lemon law proceedings, indicating he kept records)
carzzz #7326 - 05 LE (?) - 23-24 mpg
I have excluded my own car from the analysis as it may be perceived as bias. I also excluded toyotaken's response #7781, who works for the carmaker, is reporting here-say from his customers, and, in any event - the numbers were so extraordinarily high("in the low 40's to about 45 mpg")as to bring significant pause to question them. Insofar as my response to the Consumer Reports test, that test indicated a city mileage of 16 mpg, similar to what I get. I've tested three other rental camrys and I swear to you, if anyone relies on them to get 34 miles per gallon, even pure freeway, they are gonna be walking a long ways with a gas can. Maybe sometime in the lifetime of the car, once or twice, but my experience, and posters like hank2 #7653, suggest somewhere below 30 mpg is a realistic performance expectation for highway for this car.
It was interesting to compare some posts in which the poster selectively reported higher numbers when they get them (e.g., miserymule's #6079 guesstimate "gets about 32 mpg on the highway", or Ian721's #7096 29 mpg based on under 10 gallons consumption).
Last, I noted with interest, wayne7777's #7374 mixed mileage of 19 mpg, as it comes from California (where I live). I categorized him as a guess although I'll bet he's watching it like a hawk. Several other posters, including myself, wondered about the potential effect of PZEV status and potential loss of efficiency.
My conclusion is there's alot of "hopers" and "optimists" that in real life like to smile when they have reason to and ignore reality the rest of the time.
My apologies for the tardy reply. Lengthy flu/cold/bronchitus syndrome that limited my afterwork leisure on the net.
Look at Consumer reports for actual measured mileage - far more accurate than a typical owner can do. They splice in a very accurate fuel gauge and drive the vehicle on real roads with a 5th wheel to determine distance. Get your car warmed up, fill it with gas, drive several hundred miles on a level road without the A/C, and without a head wind at 65 mph and you will get what CR gets (assuming the vehicle is functioning properly). Drive just a few miles in town and the mileage drops rapidly.
In my experience the two biggest factors in mpg that people rarely take into account are wind speed and engine temperature (of course there are others like driving speed, tire inflation, tire type, a/c use, engine tune, vehicle load, speed consistancy, elevation change, elevation, humidity, temperature, barometric pressure, precipitation, road surface etc).
Mpg on my Integra varies from well under 20 in the winter, when it never warms up and just goes short distances, to well over 40 (up to 45) on long trips with a tailwind. If I was the complaining type I would post on these boards how bad my mileage is. If I was the bragging type I would post how good it is. Same vehicle, but mileage can be viewed different ways.
210delray #7432 - 04 LE - 26.9 mpg (supecedes msg #7926)
Both my '04 and '05 Camry LE 4's get better mileage than that on the freeway.
I'll try to summarize to not bore everyone else.
'04 LE 4 cyl 4A:
Overall mileage from 19 miles (new, with a full tank of gas) to 15,802 miles:
27.3 mpg (15,783 miles, 578.84 gallons)
Best 3 highway mileage readings in that period (with 2 consecutive tankfuls):
35.5 mpg (709.5 miles, 20.01 gallons) mostly freeway
34.9 mpg (815.1 miles, 23.37 gallons) mostly freeway
30.4 mpg (686.9 miles, 22.62 gallons) mostly divided highway w/ traffic lights.
Worst 3 city (small town in our case) mileage readings in that period (single tankful, but at least 10 gallons added):
22.4 mpg (234.6 miles, 10.47 gallons)
23.1 mpg (267.1 miles, 11.54 gallons)
23.1 mpg (241.0 miles, 10.45 gallons)
Since filling up the car in LA and driving back with my wife and son to central VA and then around the area (he didn't keep records when he had the car):
Overall mileage from 28,751 to 34,012 miles (filled up today):
28.6 mpg (5261 miles, 184.08 gallons)
The trip itself (LA to central VA):
30.3 mpg (3767 miles, 124.32 gallons, 10 consecutive tankfuls) mostly 2-lane roads, 3 people, full trunk, cold temps a good deal of the way, and high altitudes in NV, UT, and CO. Also stopping and touring in towns and national parks along the way.
Since he's been back home with us and by far the main driver of the car:
25.3 mpg (1203.3 miles, 47.54 gallons, 3 consecutive tanks) mixed city/highway driving, he's more aggressive than my wife and me.
I'll do the '05 Camry 4 cyl 5A in a later post. Only 9400 miles on it so far, and it doesn't do quite as well, but still from about 21 mpg around town to 32 mpg on the highway.
That is a lot of effort, but the fact remains that predicting/measuring the mpg of a vehicle by a few posts on the internet cannot be done. There are too many variable in how people drive and how they measure.
Look at Consumer reports for actual measured mileage - far more accurate than a typical owner can do.
I commend your efforts, certainly was no easy task. However the fact remains that your analysis offers little concrete evidence due to the many inconsistencies in data gathering. I agree with dudleyr that the Consumer Reports test is a more accurate assessment of Camry fuel usage.
- 299 Miles
- 13.63 Gallons
- 21.98 mpg
90/10 city/highway miles
Total miles on car--3519
Look in the transmission section of the forum and see the ES300 transmission problem forum and the Toyota/Lexus transaxle delay fourm
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef14c39/?ed_displayMakeModelRelatedDiscus- sions!make=CATS&model=Transmission
As far as your mileage, the driver variable is very important like Imacmil said in post #72. You may be stepping harder on the gas pedal now that you have a 4 cylinder car to make it accelerate like your prior 6 cylinder car.
Your 70% hwy driving doesn't tell me that much. If your are driving 65 mph, your 4 cylinder vehicle should do better in mileage than the 6 cylinder. If you are driving 75mph+, I would expect the two cars to get similar mileage.
Also, were you using premium fuel with the Lexus (which can take advantage of that) and regular unleaded with the Camry? That could also make a difference.
Hope this helps you in your quest towards feeling satisfied with the car or helping you decide to dump the car.
If you use fuel with 10% ethanol blended in, you will notice lower fuel economy.
I like the way the Europeans report highway mileage since they tell you what the consumption is at 100kmh (62mph) and then at 120kmh (75mph). There is a significant drop at higher speed.
- 270.4 Miles
- 12.01 Gallons
- 22.51 mpg
95/5 city/highway miles
Total miles on car--3789
Overall I'm still very pleased with the mileage my Camry's achieved. This reporting period covered some very cold weather (20-40 degrees f), and consisted of many short trips with very little highway miles. 22.51 mpg is very close to EPA estimates and considering the type of driving I do the mileage is actually very good.