some readers might want to read up on "road-horsepower" with regard to the presumed "wasted energy/horsepower" from the engine.
That is a valid request. I have noticed watching the instant MPG on the Passat TDI, that when the load is extremely light, going down hill for example. The MPG indicator reads from 100-199 MPG. Or it goes to -- meaning it is using virtually no diesel. Along that line I have followed a little on the Honda VCM V6 engine and Posters do not seem to be getting any better with that engine than the Non-VCM engine in the Odyssey. That leads me to believe that the added complexity gains us little or nothing in MPG.
There is no doubt in my mind that the HSD system works to gain MPG on a given vehicle. At what cost initially and down the road is what I want to know. Initially we know there is a premium. Down the road buyers are gambling on Toyota being a reliable manufacturer. I also believe that Toyota is playing on the "gadget of the Month" mentality that has made Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft Billions$$$, with Playstations and Xbox. Americans are gullible. Toyota has not had the same hybrid success in the EU as here.
As you know Diesel is well entrenched in Europe so the differential between the 30-40% saving of a hybrid vs gasser and the 30-40% saving between a diesel vs gasser is actually of little interest to Europeans. To me that's understandable.
However in the US with the bias against diesels, hybrids with their 30-40% advantage over gassers are very interesting. This is also understandable.
Until diesel can win acceptance here hybrids offer a more efficient alternative in efficiency than gassers.
Disparaging the reasons why people choose one vehicle over another does not add to the discussion. ( 'Americans are gullible' ) Why do some buy Lexus's when Yugo's will do the job just as well? Even if they are disposable.
Why do some buy Lexus's when Yugo's will do the job just as well? Even if they are disposable.
I believe you have hit exactly what I am saying. Hybrids are being built as disposable cars. By Toyota's own words. The battery will last the life of the car. How many miles is that? How many years can I expect. I am still happy with my wife's 1990 Lexus LS400. That is way past the life expectancy of the Prius.
If you do not believe that we Americans are gullible. Well I guess I can't sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
Well as you say the operative variable at work here is of comparison.
So to cut to the chase, the real arbiter is cost, i.e., acquistion, operation cost, cost be mile, etc.
So while you can do a comparison between a Yugo and a Lexus, I would profer to come as close to apples to apples might be a more operative way to compare. So for example, Civic vs Corolla vs TDI Jetta, HCH ,Prius, etc.
is there empirical evidence/testing showing this 2500lb nonhybrid vs 3000 lb hybrid in steady-state highway situation? i doubt it, because there are those pesky laws of thermodynamics in the way
That's the EPA test.
Yaris 38 mpg ( 2.63 gpc ) at highway testing conditions Prius 51 mpg ( 1.96 gpc ) at highway testing conditions
The Camry for 10+ yrs as well as the Accord and others have been rated in the 31-33 mpg EPA HWY rating. There may be millions of vehicles on the road validating these tests. While the EPA results are under attack because the conditions of the tests are unrealistic in today's driving situations, the tests themselves are valid and have been for 30+ years.
again, the concept of "road horsepower" for vehicles is relevant here - it is the number of horsepower necesary to keep the vehicle moving on flat surface at a certain speed. for 60 mph, usually it is a number much lower than 100hp. if the engine has 200 peak-rpm hp and road-horsepower is 100 hp that does NOT mean there is an extra 100 hp being "wasted" at any rpm. is there any recoverable-by-HSD energy being 1hp being "wasted" when a 400 hp engine is using only 70 hp to keep the car rolling? i don't see how.
A) No you missed what I was saying. It's not the difference between 'peak HP' of say 250 hp vs road hp of about 100 hp. It's specifically in the road HP of about 100 HP that there is still wasted energy. It may take actually only 50 hp to maintain speed on the road while cruising. Yet due to the rpm level the road hp may actually be 90-100 hp. This is wasted energy some of which is recaptured into the batteries.
if the HSD is going to somehow capture "wasted" energy in a steady-state highway situation, someone is going to have to identify where that energy comes from. bottom line is that it's going to come from gasoline in the end
No single trip is steady-state as you mention except in theory. There are always peaks and valleys in energy use and momentum due to human input or physical conditions or driving conditions. No one drives from NY to LA at 55 mph without a single variation in speed. Nor so even in any normal highway drive of even 20 miles. In addition to A) above there is also..
the lost kinetic energy from slowing down from time to time is also recaptured in part. It's brilliantly simple.
Yes you are correct all of energy in the system originates from the fuel burned but huge amounts are just lost into space... friction, drag, overspecifications of the drive systems, braking, non-recovered kinetic energy and probably more. By using the HSD system for gassers Toyota has typically been able to recapture about 30-50% of this loss depending on the driving conditions.
I was speaking of the Yugo's but I do understand your pov. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would buy a Lexus anything or Acura or Infinity when the standard version will do. I guess there's a wide spectrum in describing 'gullible'. 90 Camry's are very effective still.
Yaris 38 mpg ( 2.63 gpc ) at highway testing conditions Prius 51 mpg ( 1.96 gpc ) at highway testing conditions "
Not entirely fair; they use different engine cycles. The Yaris uses the Otto cycle, the Prius the Atkinson cycle. At highway speeds the disadvantages of the Atkinson cycle are not in effect; It is during low RPMs that this cycle is lacking. During EPA testing the engine cycle wouldn't matter at all.
I suspect that a Yaris with Atkinson tuning would get similar EPA highway mileage as the Prius.
True, they are also much less complex than the Prius or even the 90s Lexus. Your faith in electronics is much higher than mine. Then I just retired from working 45 years in electronics. Age and obsolescence is the enemy of ALL electronic devices. The only real problems with my wife's Lexus was electronic modules & sensors. For high mileage car buyers it is not an issue. You wear the car out before it has a chance to die of old age.
I am also into "elegant simplicity" simple is better etc etc.
The point of using the Civic as nexus is almost strictly that, plus the car is 100% cheaper. This would translate to: 2 Honda Civic's (12600 each vs 25,500) for the price of a Prius. Or if I do not need 2 cars I have 12,500 for fuel for the commute. EVEN at todays prices of 3.25 per gal that buys 3846 gals and at 42 mpg up to 161,538 miles or 18,000 miles per year 8.9 years of commuting.
So in a manner of speaking, it is KDSynders point and or analogy of why get a Lexus when.....
Darn good question???? I guess because you can afford it and the little extra luxury it affords. You have to ask yourself why the Japanese do not buy Lexus. Or at least not till this year.
Yeah, I would say that is probably a major reason but that would be just my sociological/marketing/ etc observation. Other posters have said the reasons are up to infinite (my characterization, not what they REALLY said) and I would agree!! There is absolutely nothing wrong in commuting in Honda Civic when a Lexus 400/430 will do!
I guess because you can afford it and the little extra luxury it affords. You have to ask yourself why the Japanese do not buy Lexus. Or at least not till this year.
If I remember correctly, Acura, Infinity and Lexus names only exist in the USA market? They are the same vehicules but the market in the USA uses thoses names to show higher luxury models. I remember seeing a "Honda Integra" in nicaguarga. The VW Jetta outside the USA is called the Bora. Same idea with different names. LOL...... now in Argentina.... Jetta name means = Bad Luck.
Not entirely fair; they use different engine cycles
It's still apples and apples. You can't change what these are so you compare them as they are available. The Prius has the Atkinson cycle because it needs less performance since the battery supplies supplemental power. The yaris is tweaked for maximum performance because it does not have a supplemental motor and thus is set up with an Otto cycle.
In the case of comparing for ultimate consumption rates, it's really fair to compare anything that uses fuel or gasoline. If not then I'd say it's not entirely fair to compare the 4Runner's consumption with the HH because the 4Runner doesn't have hybrid option. What's not fair about that?
The issue that arises, similar to the one Lexus vs Camry is that I immediately ruled out all smaller vehicles like the Corolla, Civic, Focus etc.
You point is valid and I agree wholeheartedly that buying a $12500 vehicle or two is more 'economical' than buying a $24,000 fuel efficient vehicle. I just chose not to drive a smaller vehicle.
The Jetta, Prius, CamCord-Sonata is as small as I will drive.
I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would buy a Lexus anything or Acura or Infinity when the standard version will do. I guess there's a wide spectrum in describing 'gullible'.
I traded my Infiniti FX45 for my TCH. Your comment may apply to 50% of the standard/luxury offerings in those brands, but there is NO standard version for the Infiniti FX. The Nissan Murano is no where near the same vehicle as the Infiniti.
Then again, if you can't for the life of you understand why anyone would prefer a Lexus over a Toyota, then I'm assuming you live in a trailer, drive a Yugo, wear clothes from the Salvation Army, etc.... All reasonable ways not to overspend on unneeded upgrades to life. If your definition of gullible is true then I'd have to say, without even knowing you or your life style, that you are a hypocrite.
Some people look at a vehicle as more than a means of transportation. It's a good thing too or Henry Ford automotive would still be selling cheap mass produced black cars to America with no competition
I think if diesels were available here in the US in more than VW and MB (and now Liberty) then Americans would buy them. If there was a diesel Impala, diesel Ford 500 or Chrysler, I believe Americans would gobble them up. Unfortunately America has not figured out how to build them for the masses and still comply with environmental issues. (Then again I understand even VW may quit selling them here due to new emmission standards.) I really don't think Americans would reject them if they were available in large quantities on the "bread and butter" cars.
I do not think it is a matter of "ACCEPTANCE" it is a matter of lifting (5 state bans) so the oems can see there is a steady market for them and actually either make more of them or import more of them into the country!!!
Let us put it this way, for every Euro oem and model there is the corresponding #2 diesel oil burner!! So a BMW 330i has a BMW 330 d, etc. Europe's passenger vehicle fleet (app the same numbers as ours (235.4M vehicles) is fully 45% diesel and GROWING !!! The latest gasoline prices really are highlighting the app 37% diesel fuel advantage. Of course at this juncture you don't hear folks saying how the price of unleaded as well as unleaded premium are so much LESS than diesel!?
So using a gasser/diesel VW Jetta as an example the EPA's 24/31 vs 42/49
Although I've driven quite a few of the newer hybrid vehicles including the new Lexus SUV, Prius, and chevrolet pickup, I think it could be many years before the capability of hybrids truly justifies them in many vehicles. I currently have a new Dodge diesel pickup with nearly 300 horsepower and more torque than a new Viper while still getting 24 miles per gallon cruising at 65mph. The only reason why some of the more effecient motors used in Europe are not currently available for use within the US is the inability to meet current emmisions ratings, which will be solved after the government mandate to provide ultra-low sulfer content vehicles. Also, with very available, simple modification, these diesels can be made even more powerful and efficient than they come from the factory.
Acura and Infinity only exist in North America AFAIK. Lexus exists in Europe, but seeing a Lexus on the road other than an IS200 is rare, and the IS200 was only an exec car, too expensive for average Joe. Most people I know wouldn't have one 'cause of the flappy paddle shift the IS200 has (99% of people in UK prefer to drive proper manual gearbox vehicles with a clutch pedal and stick).
Anyways, I do wonder what the point of hybrids are. If you take out the weight of the batteries and associated linkages, then surely fuel usage will be just as good if not better. Use a diesel engine and fuel economy will increase much better still. Use a clutch/stick transmission and economy increases again. Car manufacturers know that clutch/stick cars are more economical than automatic, up to 20% increase in mpg in some cases (check out the web sites). Yet north America is dominated with Automatics?! Also Diesel cars are rare, and banned in some parts of North America simply because of the emissions due to the poor quality of the fuel, with very high sulphur and other contaminants in content compared to European/UK diesel.
If your ICE is getting more power than it needs to maintain road speed then it will increase speed. It make so since, why would you want to burn more gas than neccessay just to charge batteries and use the power later at the same speed. You are adding unnecessary loses that make the system less effecient.
I mentioned coasting earlier and you said that i was stupid to think that coasting would be the place where the "extra" energy came from. (remimber the quote about hills).
If the hybrid is more effcient it is because chances are on a long trip you are going to have periods where you are not on the gas pedal, In that time the gas engine shuts off (no gas being burned), you charge the batteries, and upon acceleration that power is used to help the ICE bring you back up to speed (using less gas).
I know you are not going to agree with that because you have already disagreed with the exact same statement eariler. I guess you think that toyota has developed the propetual motion machine or somthing. I have noticed that you are really the only one defending the hybrids and makeing this arguement.
I will give the prius and other hybird one thing that gives them the advantage on the open road. Its not that they are effecient or that there computer controls make power. It that thier ICE does not ideal, which would give you an advantage. It would explain how they get slightly improved gas milage that way. But hell I can turn my car off while and am coasting.
I am finished with this converstation, this is like trying to explian to my 16 y/old sister why she can't build a car that only has a generator and an electic motor. She keeps telling "all you got to do is get it moving. Once its moving then two of the tires will spin up the generator which will power the motor. then the motor start to turn the other two tires. the generator is still being turned with the two tire, the generator makes more power and the power turn the motor. sounds great. Its perfect. Maybe toyota will build one of those next.
Compare the 1.6 and 2.0 Duratec engines in Manual and Auto configurations. The 3door Focus with the 1.6 Duratec (100 PS) shows clearly a huge difference in mpg. 12% better mpg in Combined driving for the MT, and 19.5% better mpg in Urban driving. The 4 door Auto 1.6 Duratec (100PS) is worse, with the Urban driving with the MT having 21.8% better mpg. The 2.0 Duratec (145 PS) with MT has 14.3% better mpg in Urban driving, and 12.7% better mpg in the Combined. Another thing to notice is the CO2 emissions for the automatics are noticeably higher too. In the UK the newly introduced vehicle taxes for cars registered from 2001 are based around the CO2 emissions. No one in the UK would touch an automatic if it means paying more car tax as well as having higher fuel consumption.
Your statements are disjointed and unclear. But here is the essence..
On the highway the Prius gets 50 mpg ( uses 2.0 gpc ) how does this happen when most other vehicles only get about 35-40 mpg ( 2.75 gpc )? Something is creating this added efficiency.
Your statements: I never said that you were stupid. I did say that your statements about batteries, etc showed that you didn't understand how the HSD system worked. Big difference.
You stated above:
If your ICE is getting more power than it needs to maintain road speed then it will increase speed. It make so since, why would you want to burn more gas than neccessay just to charge batteries and use the power later at the same speed. You are adding unnecessary loses that make the system less effecient.
This is not clear but I think what you are asking is the following.
No one wants to burn extra fuel while cruising but all vehicles presently are over spec'd for highway cruising only. They all burn too much fuel. This is why GM and Honda have gone a different route in order to save fuel on the highways. Toyota just takes some of this excess wasted power and saves it for later use.
If the hybrid is more effcient it is because chances are on a long trip you are going to have periods where you are not on the gas pedal, In that time the gas engine shuts off (no gas being burned), you charge the batteries, and upon acceleration that power is used to help the ICE bring you back up to speed (using less gas).
This is exactly what I said so I agree.
Traditional drive systems cannot do this thus the hybrid system allows the traditional system to be more efficient on highway driving. Nothing more.
I know you are not going to agree with that because you have already disagreed with the exact same statement eariler. I guess you think that toyota has developed the propetual motion machine or somthing. I have noticed that you are really the only one defending the hybrids and makeing this arguement
I never said anything like that.
Being alone in a position has never bothered me. As many here know I am firmly in favor of even better alternatives as well. It's just at this present time in this specific market the best alternatives to save fuel are either a hybrid or diesel.
I will give the prius and other hybird one thing that gives them the advantage on the open road. Its not that they are effecient or that there computer controls make power. It that thier ICE does not ideal, which would give you an advantage. It would explain how they get slightly improved gas milage that way. But hell I can turn my car off while and am coasting.
'...ICE does not ideal, which would give you an advantage.'? HUH? You'll have to explain this more.
But hell I can turn my car off while and am coasting. Yes, theoretically you can do this but realistically can you do this constantly while driving across country? No. The computer and electronics in the HSD do it for you.
The local VW dealer called me to day to give me the official bad news. The west coast VW rep. was at his dealership yesterday 5/11 and told them that VW and MB would not be selling diesels for the 2007 model year and may or may not, depending on the EPA, sell them in 2008. Without going into detail, he said the EPA was doing some things that might keep diesels out for 2008. This is pure speculation and conjecture, but could it be that the ethanol lobby is in the EPA’s back pocket. For what other reason would the EPA not allow clean diesels to be sold? One can only speculate.
The local VW dealer called me to day to give me the official bad news. The west coast VW rep. was at his dealership yesterday 5/11 and told them that VW and MB would not be selling diesels for the 2007 model year and may or may not, depending on the EPA, sell them in 2008. Without going into detail, he said the EPA was doing some things that might keep diesels out for 2008. This is pure speculation and conjecture, but could it be that the ethanol lobby is in the EPA’s back pocket. For what other reason would the EPA not allow clean diesels to be sold? One can only speculate.
I read at another site, that MB can meet the 2007 diesels emissions and VW will make extra of 2006 models to sell but haven't been able to at least for now to meet the tighter standards.
Also the reason since NY and Cali basicly outlawed Diesels with their laws and they account for basicly 25% of populations of auto sales of the USA so other manufactures aren;t selling diesels here due to limited sales posiblities. Also since starting in 2007, the tighter standards for diesels will go into effect, and dispite the newer refernieries for diesel with lower sulfer for 2007 that will be online in 2007, manufactuers are hesitent to bring to market diesel to the USA. :sick:
On the highway the Prius gets 50 mpg ( uses 2.0 gpc ) how does this happen when most other vehicles only get about 35-40 mpg
You use your own experience driving under the speed limit in most of the USA. You get 50 MPG driving a very leisure 64 MPH. What happens when that figure is jumped up to the average 75 MPH?
I delivered the Passat TDI to Yuma, AZ yesterday. It was 157 miles. Took 2 hours and 18 minutes with a potty break. I filled it and the calculated mileage in Yuma and it was 40.1 MPG. I only hit 100 MPH a couple times. That was going from sea level to 4100 feet and back to below sea level. It was right at 100 degrees with the air on full blast. I would like to see what mileage a Prius would get under those circumstances.
I passed a Prius on the way home. it was 100 degrees and he had his window open driving about 65 MPH. That is cheap IMO.
To our EU poster and the Manual Transmissions. You can add lazy to gullible for us Americans. We could save fuel with a little wrist action. Not US we want it all...
What are the hazards posed by the batteries in hybrid vehicles. My questions are:
1) How much of these cells can be recycled when their lifetime is up.
2) What's the expected lifetime of the battery? The typical statement is "the lifetime of the car", but what is that? I would hope to be able to buy a car and run it for 15-20 years or more with proper servicing. In 5,10, or 15 years time, could I still be able to get cells that fit in a hybrid bought now if they fail in that time?
3) How much would it cost to change the battery in a hybrid?
4) It's not as if these are just one starter bettery of 6 or eight cells. Hybrids have a large number of cells, of quite a high energy capacity. How much protection is there to prevent electrical and physical damage to and from the cells. I remember from experiance the mess produced by a normal sealed car battery after it was overcharged when the regulator failed. The battery was situated under the rear passenger seat, and after heating up and cracking it's case proceded to produce a fountain of acid that ate through the top of the "protective" box it was in and ate through the passenger seat. In an accident involving a serious impact, what's to stop the cells leaking acid and fumes all over the place and causing further danger to vehicle occupants and the emergency services?
Seeing as this forum is getting quite large, I may have missed an explanation of some or all of the above.
I'm not sure what they're doing to the Ford Focus in the UK, but here are numbers from the U.S. (I grabbed two additional random vehicles. Perhaps you had to look around to find a vehicle that fit your argument. Or maybe they just don't ship the decent trannies to the UK?)
"It's still apples and apples. You can't change what these are so you compare them as they are available. The Prius has the Atkinson cycle because it needs less performance since the battery supplies supplemental power. The yaris is tweaked for maximum performance because it does not have a supplemental motor and thus is set up with an Otto cycle."
I see your point but I disagree.
"If not then I'd say it's not entirely fair to compare the 4Runner's consumption with the HH because the 4Runner doesn't have hybrid option. What's not fair about that?"
"On the highway the Prius gets 50 mpg ( uses 2.0 gpc ) how does this happen when most other vehicles only get about 35-40 mpg ( 2.75 gpc )? Something is creating this added efficiency."
The Prius uses an atkinson cycle engine. End of story, for the ICE efficiency part.
"In the real world thought this is what is available to the buying public. - the 1.5L in the Yaris/Scions - the 1.5L in the Prius "
In the real world though this is what is available to the buying public
- the 1.5L in the Yaris/Scions using the otto cycle engine.
- the 1.5L in the Prius using the atkinson cycle engine. This accounts for much of the savings; the electric assist provides the remainder of the savings.
What's the point of adopting diesels if it leads to more dependence on overseas (or "non-friendly") supplies
Well here goes. Diesel has at least 25% more energy than gasoline. So you get an increase in fuel efficiency from the start. Diesel engines can and do run on 100% renewable biodiesel. The other renewable ethanol is about 25% less energy than gasoline. It has about 50% of the energy that is in diesel or biodiesel.
It would be impossible to change every vehicle over to diesel in any short amount of time. However for each vehicle that is sold with a diesel engine you will save 25% of the fossil fuel that would be used in an equivelant. gas car and about 50% over an E85 vehicle. The process to make biodiesel is much less expensive than to distill ethanol. Diesel can be mixed with any amount of biodiesel without any side affects. Biodiesel is not corrosive like ethanol, so it is easier to transport.
To make a comparison for every 1.21 gallons of ethanol we use 1 gallon of fossil fuel. That may be the answer to the question, if ethanol is not so great why are we messing with it? Very simple it is a win win for Big oil and Big ag. Ethanol puts a smile on the faces of Exxon and ADM executives alike. Not to mention how many politicians war chests got fatter.
great discussion here, really. the EPA highway test does not reflect the conditions that interest me the most, the steady-state 80 mph highway cruise with slowing/stopping only for fuel/reststops. my daily 70 miles of commuting are much like that too - traffic moves at about 80. and some people really DO drive from NY to LA or FL at the same speed! get your kicks on rt 66.
1. Toyota has a bounty on all of them so any that are wrecked or ready to be crushed can have the batteries picked up by Toyota. I am not certain of the recycling but from a comment ( not verified yet ) the NiMH batteries are not at all like normal ones and do not pose the risk one normally expects with lead acid batteries or even NiCd's.
2. Frankly here the Gen1 Prius' are just starting to age - 7 yrs now. Toyota states lifetime of the vehicle. Most Toyota's here are expected to go 200,000 to 300,000 miles or 15 to 20 yrs of normal driving. ( 6 yrs for me ). It may be 10 years yet before the 2001's start to be retired for good. Obviously there have been a number of Gen1's and Gen2's that have been wrecked. Nothing at all about recycling issues on these.
3. Cost to change a hybrid battery? Who knows. It's all speculations since none have been done yet. there are wild speculations from $200/cell to $5000 for an entire unit. Again it's all speculation.
4. See No1. about the composition of NiMH batteries. I don't know for certain but there are few, if any reports of failures as you state. I'd be concerned about the situation after a severe crash which after 7 years I'm certain there must have been some. Again no reports to my knowledge.
Comparing MT vs AT mileage figures doesn't work at all any more, because many manufacturers (including Honda and Toyota) have started gearing MT cars to rev higher at similar speeds, which increases performance and decreases fuel efficiency.
As I understand it, the torque converter in conventional automatics is about a 10-15% efficiency hit if everything was geared equal. Of course, CVT's and automanuals that feature electronic clutches (VW's DSG) are different beasts...
Well here goes. Diesel has at least 25% more energy than gasoline. So you get an increase in fuel efficiency from the start. Diesel engines can and do run on 100% renewable biodiesel. The other renewable ethanol is about 25% less energy than gasoline. It has about 50% of the energy that is in diesel or biodiesel.
Yes, Diesel's do get better mileage than their counterparts of gas and are actually much better at hauling heavy items. Diesels did get a bad rap for the smell, noise and lack of accelation but as of late, the bad smell is basicly gone, the noise is close to a common gas powered engine and with a turbo accelation is decent. Too bad basicly, the Gud Ole USA hates them in cars!
Yes, true Biodiesel( B100), would be cheaper to produce(in most cases) and would be very high enviormently safe.
Why is the gov't now pushing for E85 with it proving lower mileage, and still using fossil fuels........ one never knows does on? :confuse:
My take in 2002 which hasn't changed to this day is to look for those diesel products that have actually made it into this country. While it is true that diesel fuel is ONLY currently available at 1 in 4 or 25% of fueling stations, the fact of the matter is the ratio speaks it ALL; 75% serves 97% of the passenger vehicle fleet and 25% serves less than 3% of the (diesel) passenger vehicle fleet.
As a real world consequence, I have never in that time had trouble getting diesel and even better, EVER had to wait for a pump to free up!!??? Perhaps I should not even mention this!!??
I truly can not say this for the unleaded regular portion of the cars I have!!
"Comparing MT vs AT mileage figures doesn't work at all any more, because many manufacturers (including Honda and Toyota) have started gearing MT cars to rev higher at similar speeds, which increases performance and decreases fuel efficiency"
I would disagree, but since you covered the parasitic, loss (10-15% efficiency) in degree. So for example, so called "performance" cars like Corvette Z06, this is covered a lot on those type web sites and actually is peppered with a lot of dyno runs to back it up. So for example even with so called agressive gearing (10% over normal Corvette 6 speed manual gearing) I can easily get 26-32 mpg at cruising speeds. How many so called sports cars can really do that? AND this is with a V-8.!!??
So the parasitic loss for(MOST or the majority OF) MANUAL transmissions is between 10-15% and the parasitic loss for (MOST or the majority OF) auto trans is more like 15-25%. Can either or both use optimization? Absolutely!
To its credit Honda Civic for example has optimized its engine to transmission matings and as you infer have something like 1-2 mpg of difference between manual/automatic. HOWEVER this narrowed range is not applicable across the boards between manual and automatic, that is also assuming a manual is even available. As one knows the majority of cars have automatics or fully upwards of 85% do in fact get automatics.
As one knows the majority of cars have automatics or fully upwards of 85% do in fact get automatics.
LOL....... this is an example of where it's the USA and then it's the rest of the world.
Yup.... in the USA it's about 92% cars use AT's and in the rest of the world it's basicly 98% are MT's. Of course, in the rest of the world, fossil fuels cost quite a bit more!
------------------------------------------------------- Also with the newer AT's like VW has, the mileage is actually close. These newer transmissions are not like the ones that have been around for the last 50 yrs, they have electronice and a different system of transfering force to the wheels.
I would like to drive one of the VW TDI vehicles with the DSG transmission. In fact I have thought of a new Beetle set up that way. If the price ever gets reasonable. I don't ever get in a hurry to waste money on MSRP. My opinion is anything over Invoice is money down the toilet.
I would also! I am not very studied on VW's DSG option, but the concept is pretty neat. You still have a manual stick/paddle shift, with clutching by computer, sans the left foot . The benefits would include: manual transmission operation (with in theory tighter more precise operation), less effort, less weight, closer to manual transmission mpg, less parasitic energy loss less technical complexity.
As with any new innovation, my concern would be the durability or "bullet proofness" of the actual technical execution. Last but not least, the extra cost (if any) to repair or replace.
As far as I know, we do not buy diesel fuel from overseas but refine it here. I do not know if the crude oil from which the diesel is made is domestic, foreign, or a mix of both.
Nevertheless, any oil coming from the middle east and other foreign countries, save for a few, is coming from unstable and potentially hostile countries bent on bringing us to our knees.
I say we develop the more expensive sources like the tar sands in Canada now or get the natural gas(about 70 years worth) off of the east coast of the United States (near the Carolinas)and make synthetic fuels. Sooner or later we will have to do it and I would rather now than later when it is cheaper to do it and when it is less likely to have an impact on our country/economy. I would like to see it done in an environmentally friendly manner though.
where do the diesel fuel reserves come from? Still all unfriendly nations?
Where does the diesel that powers the tractors and combines to produce the corn come from? Biodiesel from several different crops is still a better ratio than corn to ethanol. The major thing that ethanol has going for it is its value as an oxygenator. Past that is a loser for all but corporations like ADM.
Just take this in and think about it. We take one barrel of oil and produce with the cooperation of the sun 1.21 barrels of Ethanol. Sounds OK until you further examine ethanol. It has approximately 25% less energy than unleaded gasoline and about 50% less energy than diesel. That makes ethanol a negative gain. Unless you have some secret formula that can give ethanol a boost in energy.
So now we have bought and paid for a barrel of Saudi oil that we use to grow and distill 1.21 barrels of a much lower energy ethanol. You tell me if that is not a major reason ethanol laced gas is now $3 plus per gallon.
Can you show statistics, that with our increase of several billion gallons of ethanol being produced, we have cut our oil imports by that amount. I will bet you cannot. If anything it will be a slight increase in imported oil to make up for the decrease in mileage being reported with our mandated ethanol laced unleaded regular.
I guess 90% of the population should be happy they are making a few folks in the Midwest & Washington DC a pile of money.
Comments
That is a valid request. I have noticed watching the instant MPG on the Passat TDI, that when the load is extremely light, going down hill for example. The MPG indicator reads from 100-199 MPG. Or it goes to -- meaning it is using virtually no diesel. Along that line I have followed a little on the Honda VCM V6 engine and Posters do not seem to be getting any better with that engine than the Non-VCM engine in the Odyssey. That leads me to believe that the added complexity gains us little or nothing in MPG.
There is no doubt in my mind that the HSD system works to gain MPG on a given vehicle. At what cost initially and down the road is what I want to know. Initially we know there is a premium. Down the road buyers are gambling on Toyota being a reliable manufacturer. I also believe that Toyota is playing on the "gadget of the Month" mentality that has made Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft Billions$$$, with Playstations and Xbox. Americans are gullible. Toyota has not had the same hybrid success in the EU as here.
However in the US with the bias against diesels, hybrids with their 30-40% advantage over gassers are very interesting. This is also understandable.
Until diesel can win acceptance here hybrids offer a more efficient alternative in efficiency than gassers.
Disparaging the reasons why people choose one vehicle over another does not add to the discussion. ( 'Americans are gullible' ) Why do some buy Lexus's when Yugo's will do the job just as well? Even if they are disposable.
I believe you have hit exactly what I am saying. Hybrids are being built as disposable cars. By Toyota's own words. The battery will last the life of the car. How many miles is that? How many years can I expect. I am still happy with my wife's 1990 Lexus LS400. That is way past the life expectancy of the Prius.
If you do not believe that we Americans are gullible. Well I guess I can't sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
So to cut to the chase, the real arbiter is cost, i.e., acquistion, operation cost, cost be mile, etc.
So while you can do a comparison between a Yugo and a Lexus, I would profer to come as close to apples to apples might be a more operative way to compare. So for example, Civic vs Corolla vs TDI Jetta, HCH ,Prius, etc.
Well who'd dah thunk that British bridge would end up in Lake Havasu in AZ !!!??
That's the EPA test.
Yaris 38 mpg ( 2.63 gpc ) at highway testing conditions
Prius 51 mpg ( 1.96 gpc ) at highway testing conditions
The Camry for 10+ yrs as well as the Accord and others have been rated in the 31-33 mpg EPA HWY rating. There may be millions of vehicles on the road validating these tests. While the EPA results are under attack because the conditions of the tests are unrealistic in today's driving situations, the tests themselves are valid and have been for 30+ years.
again, the concept of "road horsepower" for vehicles is relevant here - it is the number of horsepower necesary to keep the vehicle moving on flat surface at a certain speed. for 60 mph, usually it is a number much lower than 100hp. if the engine has 200 peak-rpm hp and road-horsepower is 100 hp that does NOT mean there is an extra 100 hp being "wasted" at any rpm. is there any recoverable-by-HSD energy being 1hp being "wasted" when a 400 hp engine is using only 70 hp to keep the car rolling? i don't see how.
A) No you missed what I was saying. It's not the difference between 'peak HP' of say 250 hp vs road hp of about 100 hp. It's specifically in the road HP of about 100 HP that there is still wasted energy. It may take actually only 50 hp to maintain speed on the road while cruising. Yet due to the rpm level the road hp may actually be 90-100 hp. This is wasted energy some of which is recaptured into the batteries.
if the HSD is going to somehow capture "wasted" energy in a steady-state highway situation, someone is going to have to identify where that energy comes from. bottom line is that it's going to come from gasoline in the end
No single trip is steady-state as you mention except in theory. There are always peaks and valleys in energy use and momentum due to human input or physical conditions or driving conditions. No one drives from NY to LA at 55 mph without a single variation in speed. Nor so even in any normal highway drive of even 20 miles. In addition to A) above there is also..
Yes you are correct all of energy in the system originates from the fuel burned but huge amounts are just lost into space... friction, drag, overspecifications of the drive systems, braking, non-recovered kinetic energy and probably more. By using the HSD system for gassers Toyota has typically been able to recapture about 30-50% of this loss depending on the driving conditions.
Yaris 38 mpg ( 2.63 gpc ) at highway testing conditions
Prius 51 mpg ( 1.96 gpc ) at highway testing conditions "
Not entirely fair; they use different engine cycles. The Yaris uses the Otto cycle, the Prius the Atkinson cycle. At highway speeds the disadvantages of the Atkinson cycle are not in effect; It is during low RPMs that this cycle is lacking. During EPA testing the engine cycle wouldn't matter at all.
I suspect that a Yaris with Atkinson tuning would get similar EPA highway mileage as the Prius.
True, they are also much less complex than the Prius or even the 90s Lexus. Your faith in electronics is much higher than mine. Then I just retired from working 45 years in electronics. Age and obsolescence is the enemy of ALL electronic devices. The only real problems with my wife's Lexus was electronic modules & sensors. For high mileage car buyers it is not an issue. You wear the car out before it has a chance to die of old age.
The point of using the Civic as nexus is almost strictly that, plus the car is 100% cheaper. This would translate to: 2 Honda Civic's (12600 each vs 25,500) for the price of a Prius. Or if I do not need 2 cars I have 12,500 for fuel for the commute. EVEN at todays prices of 3.25 per gal that buys 3846 gals and at 42 mpg up to 161,538 miles or 18,000 miles per year 8.9 years of commuting.
So in a manner of speaking, it is KDSynders point and or analogy of why get a Lexus when.....
Darn good question???? I guess because you can afford it and the little extra luxury it affords. You have to ask yourself why the Japanese do not buy Lexus. Or at least not till this year.
If I remember correctly, Acura, Infinity and Lexus names only exist in the USA market?
They are the same vehicules but the market in the USA uses thoses names to show higher luxury models.
I remember seeing a "Honda Integra" in nicaguarga.
The VW Jetta outside the USA is called the Bora. Same idea with different names.
LOL...... now in Argentina.... Jetta name means = Bad Luck.
It's still apples and apples. You can't change what these are so you compare them as they are available. The Prius has the Atkinson cycle because it needs less performance since the battery supplies supplemental power. The yaris is tweaked for maximum performance because it does not have a supplemental motor and thus is set up with an Otto cycle.
In the case of comparing for ultimate consumption rates, it's really fair to compare anything that uses fuel or gasoline. If not then I'd say it's not entirely fair to compare the 4Runner's consumption with the HH because the 4Runner doesn't have hybrid option. What's not fair about that?
You point is valid and I agree wholeheartedly that buying a $12500 vehicle or two is more 'economical' than buying a $24,000 fuel efficient vehicle. I just chose not to drive a smaller vehicle.
The Jetta, Prius, CamCord-Sonata is as small as I will drive.
I traded my Infiniti FX45 for my TCH. Your comment may apply to 50% of the standard/luxury offerings in those brands, but there is NO standard version for the Infiniti FX. The Nissan Murano is no where near the same vehicle as the Infiniti.
Then again, if you can't for the life of you understand why anyone would prefer a Lexus over a Toyota, then I'm assuming you live in a trailer, drive a Yugo, wear clothes from the Salvation Army, etc.... All reasonable ways not to overspend on unneeded upgrades to life. If your definition of gullible is true then I'd have to say, without even knowing you or your life style, that you are a hypocrite.
Some people look at a vehicle as more than a means of transportation. It's a good thing too or Henry Ford automotive would still be selling cheap mass produced black cars to America with no competition
I think if diesels were available here in the US in more than VW and MB (and now Liberty) then Americans would buy them. If there was a diesel Impala, diesel Ford 500 or Chrysler, I believe Americans would gobble them up. Unfortunately America has not figured out how to build them for the masses and still comply with environmental issues. (Then again I understand even VW may quit selling them here due to new emmission standards.) I really don't think Americans would reject them if they were available in large quantities on the "bread and butter" cars.
Let us put it this way, for every Euro oem and model there is the corresponding #2 diesel oil burner!! So a BMW 330i has a BMW 330 d, etc. Europe's passenger vehicle fleet (app the same numbers as ours (235.4M vehicles) is fully 45% diesel and GROWING !!! The latest gasoline prices really are highlighting the app 37% diesel fuel advantage. Of course at this juncture you don't hear folks saying how the price of unleaded as well as unleaded premium are so much LESS than diesel!?
So using a gasser/diesel VW Jetta as an example the EPA's 24/31 vs 42/49
Gasser, diesel and hybrid options.
Anyways, I do wonder what the point of hybrids are. If you take out the weight of the batteries and associated linkages, then surely fuel usage will be just as good if not better. Use a diesel engine and fuel economy will increase much better still. Use a clutch/stick transmission and economy increases again. Car manufacturers know that clutch/stick cars are more economical than automatic, up to 20% increase in mpg in some cases (check out the web sites). Yet north America is dominated with Automatics?! Also Diesel cars are rare, and banned in some parts of North America simply because of the emissions due to the poor quality of the fuel, with very high sulphur and other contaminants in content compared to European/UK diesel.
From all I have read, the efficiency justification of MTs died many years ago.
If your ICE is getting more power than it needs to maintain road speed then it will increase speed. It make so since, why would you want to burn more gas than neccessay just to charge batteries and use the power later at the same speed. You are adding unnecessary loses that make the system less effecient.
I mentioned coasting earlier and you said that i was stupid to think that coasting would be the place where the "extra" energy came from. (remimber the quote about hills).
If the hybrid is more effcient it is because chances are on a long trip you are going to have periods where you are not on the gas pedal, In that time the gas engine shuts off (no gas being burned), you charge the batteries, and upon acceleration that power is used to help the ICE bring you back up to speed (using less gas).
I know you are not going to agree with that because you have already disagreed with the exact same statement eariler. I guess you think that toyota has developed the propetual motion machine or somthing. I have noticed that you are really the only one defending the hybrids and makeing this arguement.
I will give the prius and other hybird one thing that gives them the advantage on the open road. Its not that they are effecient or that there computer controls make power. It that thier ICE does not ideal, which would give you an advantage. It would explain how they get slightly improved gas milage that way. But hell I can turn my car off while and am coasting.
I am finished with this converstation, this is like trying to explian to my 16 y/old sister why she can't build a car that only has a generator and an electic motor. She keeps telling "all you got to do is get it moving. Once its moving then two of the tires will spin up the generator which will power the motor. then the motor start to turn the other two tires. the generator is still being turned with the two tire, the generator makes more power and the power turn the motor. sounds great. Its perfect. Maybe toyota will build one of those next.
http://www2.fordconnection.com/fordconnection/multimedia/gbr_en/001/focus_specs.- - html
Compare the 1.6 and 2.0 Duratec engines in Manual and Auto configurations. The 3door Focus with the 1.6 Duratec (100 PS) shows clearly a huge difference in mpg. 12% better mpg in Combined driving for the MT, and 19.5% better mpg in Urban driving. The 4 door Auto 1.6 Duratec (100PS) is worse, with the Urban driving with the MT having 21.8% better mpg. The 2.0 Duratec (145 PS) with MT has 14.3% better mpg in Urban driving, and 12.7% better mpg in the Combined.
Another thing to notice is the CO2 emissions for the automatics are noticeably higher too. In the UK the newly introduced vehicle taxes for cars registered from 2001 are based around the CO2 emissions. No one in the UK would touch an automatic if it means paying more car tax as well as having higher fuel consumption.
- the 1.5L in the Yaris/Scions
- the 1.5L in the Prius
The latter 'system' is 25-30% more efficient than the former.
On the highway the Prius gets 50 mpg ( uses 2.0 gpc ) how does this happen when most other vehicles only get about 35-40 mpg ( 2.75 gpc )? Something is creating this added efficiency.
Your statements:
I never said that you were stupid. I did say that your statements about batteries, etc showed that you didn't understand how the HSD system worked. Big difference.
You stated above:
If your ICE is getting more power than it needs to maintain road speed then it will increase speed. It make so since, why would you want to burn more gas than neccessay just to charge batteries and use the power later at the same speed. You are adding unnecessary loses that make the system less effecient.
This is not clear but I think what you are asking is the following.
No one wants to burn extra fuel while cruising but all vehicles presently are over spec'd for highway cruising only. They all burn too much fuel. This is why GM and Honda have gone a different route in order to save fuel on the highways. Toyota just takes some of this excess wasted power and saves it for later use.
If the hybrid is more effcient it is because chances are on a long trip you are going to have periods where you are not on the gas pedal, In that time the gas engine shuts off (no gas being burned), you charge the batteries, and upon acceleration that power is used to help the ICE bring you back up to speed (using less gas).
This is exactly what I said so I agree.
Traditional drive systems cannot do this thus the hybrid system allows the traditional system to be more efficient on highway driving. Nothing more.
I know you are not going to agree with that because you have already disagreed with the exact same statement eariler. I guess you think that toyota has developed the propetual motion machine or somthing. I have noticed that you are really the only one defending the hybrids and makeing this arguement
I never said anything like that.
Being alone in a position has never bothered me. As many here know I am firmly in favor of even better alternatives as well. It's just at this present time in this specific market the best alternatives to save fuel are either a hybrid or diesel.
I will give the prius and other hybird one thing that gives them the advantage on the open road. Its not that they are effecient or that there computer controls make power. It that thier ICE does not ideal, which would give you an advantage. It would explain how they get slightly improved gas milage that way. But hell I can turn my car off while and am coasting.
'...ICE does not ideal, which would give you an advantage.'? HUH? You'll have to explain this more.
But hell I can turn my car off while and am coasting. Yes, theoretically you can do this but realistically can you do this constantly while driving across country? No. The computer and electronics in the HSD do it for you.
Yes now you do understand the system.
This is pure speculation and conjecture, but could it be that the ethanol lobby is in the EPA’s back pocket. For what other reason would the EPA not allow clean diesels to be sold? One can only speculate.
This is pure speculation and conjecture, but could it be that the ethanol lobby is in the EPA’s back pocket. For what other reason would the EPA not allow clean diesels to be sold? One can only speculate.
I read at another site, that MB can meet the 2007 diesels emissions and VW will make extra of 2006 models to sell but haven't been able to at least for now to meet the tighter standards.
Also the reason since NY and Cali basicly outlawed Diesels with their laws and they account for basicly 25% of populations of auto sales of the USA so other manufactures aren;t selling diesels here due to limited sales posiblities. Also since starting in 2007, the tighter standards for diesels will go into effect, and dispite the newer refernieries for diesel with lower sulfer for 2007 that will be online in 2007, manufactuers are hesitent to bring to market diesel to the USA. :sick:
You use your own experience driving under the speed limit in most of the USA. You get 50 MPG driving a very leisure 64 MPH. What happens when that figure is jumped up to the average 75 MPH?
I delivered the Passat TDI to Yuma, AZ yesterday. It was 157 miles. Took 2 hours and 18 minutes with a potty break. I filled it and the calculated mileage in Yuma and it was 40.1 MPG. I only hit 100 MPH a couple times. That was going from sea level to 4100 feet and back to below sea level. It was right at 100 degrees with the air on full blast. I would like to see what mileage a Prius would get under those circumstances.
I passed a Prius on the way home. it was 100 degrees and he had his window open driving about 65 MPH. That is cheap IMO.
To our EU poster and the Manual Transmissions. You can add lazy to gullible for us Americans. We could save fuel with a little wrist action. Not US we want it all...
1) How much of these cells can be recycled when their lifetime is up.
2) What's the expected lifetime of the battery? The typical statement is "the lifetime of the car", but what is that? I would hope to be able to buy a car and run it for 15-20 years or more with proper servicing. In 5,10, or 15 years time, could I still be able to get cells that fit in a hybrid bought now if they fail in that time?
3) How much would it cost to change the battery in a hybrid?
4) It's not as if these are just one starter bettery of 6 or eight cells. Hybrids have a large number of cells, of quite a high energy capacity. How much protection is there to prevent electrical and physical damage to and from the cells. I remember from experiance the mess produced by a normal sealed car battery after it was overcharged when the regulator failed. The battery was situated under the rear passenger seat, and after heating up and cracking it's case proceded to produce a fountain of acid that ate through the top of the "protective" box it was in and ate through the passenger seat. In an accident involving a serious impact, what's to stop the cells leaking acid and fumes all over the place and causing further danger to vehicle occupants and the emergency services?
Seeing as this forum is getting quite large, I may have missed an explanation of some or all of the above.
2006 Ford Focus ZX4 SE 4dr Sedan (2.0L 4cyl)
Manual: 26 mpg / 35 mpg
Automatic: : 26 mpg / 32 mpg
I do not see the significant MPG advantage that you are seeing.
Audi 2006 A4 2.0
Manual: 23/34
Auto (CVT): 24 / 32
Audi 2006 A4 3.2 (AWD)
Manual: 17/27
Auto (CVT): 19 / 26
2006 Honda Accord EX 2.4L 4cyl 5M
Manual: 26 mpg / 34 mpg
Automatic: 24 mpg / 34 mpg
Perhaps since there is such a bias towards MTs in the UK, Ford doesn't ship the good AT to the UK? I dunno. Curious.
Here in America, there is no reason, other than FUN, to buy a MT. [I admit that I did not compare emissions]
Is there something wrong with my analysis?
"am wondering - will "acceptance" (defined broadly to include decent emissions) help or hurt America's dependence on foreign crude?"
What's the point of adopting diesels if it leads to more dependence on overseas (or "non-friendly") supplies
I'm not arguing against diesels. Just think this is an issue worth analyzing.
ps The Saudis are not exactly a non-friendly supplier
I see your point but I disagree.
"If not then I'd say it's not entirely fair to compare the 4Runner's consumption with the HH because the 4Runner doesn't have hybrid option. What's not fair about that?"
Both those vehicles use OTTO cycle engines.
The Prius uses an atkinson cycle engine. End of story, for the ICE efficiency part.
- the 1.5L in the Yaris/Scions
- the 1.5L in the Prius "
In the real world though this is what is available to the buying public
- the 1.5L in the Yaris/Scions using the otto cycle engine.
- the 1.5L in the Prius using the atkinson cycle engine. This accounts for much of the savings; the electric assist provides the remainder of the savings.
Well here goes. Diesel has at least 25% more energy than gasoline. So you get an increase in fuel efficiency from the start. Diesel engines can and do run on 100% renewable biodiesel. The other renewable ethanol is about 25% less energy than gasoline. It has about 50% of the energy that is in diesel or biodiesel.
It would be impossible to change every vehicle over to diesel in any short amount of time. However for each vehicle that is sold with a diesel engine you will save 25% of the fossil fuel that would be used in an equivelant. gas car and about 50% over an E85 vehicle. The process to make biodiesel is much less expensive than to distill ethanol. Diesel can be mixed with any amount of biodiesel without any side affects. Biodiesel is not corrosive like ethanol, so it is easier to transport.
To make a comparison for every 1.21 gallons of ethanol we use 1 gallon of fossil fuel. That may be the answer to the question, if ethanol is not so great why are we messing with it? Very simple it is a win win for Big oil and Big ag. Ethanol puts a smile on the faces of Exxon and ADM executives alike. Not to mention how many politicians war chests got fatter.
the EPA highway test does not reflect the conditions that interest me the most, the steady-state 80 mph highway cruise with slowing/stopping only for fuel/reststops. my daily 70 miles of commuting are much like that too - traffic moves at about 80.
and some people really DO drive from NY to LA or FL at the same speed! get your kicks on rt 66.
2. Frankly here the Gen1 Prius' are just starting to age - 7 yrs now. Toyota states lifetime of the vehicle. Most Toyota's here are expected to go 200,000 to 300,000 miles or 15 to 20 yrs of normal driving. ( 6 yrs for me ). It may be 10 years yet before the 2001's start to be retired for good. Obviously there have been a number of Gen1's and Gen2's that have been wrecked. Nothing at all about recycling issues on these.
3. Cost to change a hybrid battery? Who knows. It's all speculations since none have been done yet. there are wild speculations from $200/cell to $5000 for an entire unit. Again it's all speculation.
4. See No1. about the composition of NiMH batteries. I don't know for certain but there are few, if any reports of failures as you state. I'd be concerned about the situation after a severe crash which after 7 years I'm certain there must have been some. Again no reports to my knowledge.
I googled this link about NiMH batteries.
http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/InsideNimhBattery/inside_nimh_battery_techno- logy.html
Note in the chart midway down that the main drawback is 'Cost' with no mention at all about toxic materials or risk.
As I understand it, the torque converter in conventional automatics is about a 10-15% efficiency hit if everything was geared equal. Of course, CVT's and automanuals that feature electronic clutches (VW's DSG) are different beasts...
Yes, Diesel's do get better mileage than their counterparts of gas and are actually much better at hauling heavy items. Diesels did get a bad rap for the smell, noise and lack of accelation but as of late, the bad smell is basicly gone, the noise is close to a common gas powered engine and with a turbo accelation is decent.
Too bad basicly, the Gud Ole USA hates them in cars!
Yes, true Biodiesel( B100), would be cheaper to produce(in most cases) and would be very high enviormently safe.
Why is the gov't now pushing for E85 with it proving lower mileage, and still using fossil fuels........ one never knows does on? :confuse:
As a real world consequence, I have never in that time had trouble getting diesel and even better, EVER had to wait for a pump to free up!!??? Perhaps I should not even mention this!!??
I truly can not say this for the unleaded regular portion of the cars I have!!
I would disagree, but since you covered the parasitic, loss (10-15% efficiency) in degree. So for example, so called "performance" cars like Corvette Z06, this is covered a lot on those type web sites and actually is peppered with a lot of dyno runs to back it up. So for example even with so called agressive gearing (10% over normal Corvette 6 speed manual gearing) I can easily get 26-32 mpg at cruising speeds. How many so called sports cars can really do that? AND this is with a V-8.!!??
So the parasitic loss for(MOST or the majority OF) MANUAL transmissions is between 10-15% and the parasitic loss for (MOST or the majority OF) auto trans is more like 15-25%. Can either or both use optimization? Absolutely!
To its credit Honda Civic for example has optimized its engine to transmission matings and as you infer have something like 1-2 mpg of difference between manual/automatic. HOWEVER this narrowed range is not applicable across the boards between manual and automatic, that is also assuming a manual is even available. As one knows the majority of cars have automatics or fully upwards of 85% do in fact get automatics.
LOL....... this is an example of where it's the USA and then it's the rest of the world.
Yup.... in the USA it's about 92% cars use AT's and in the rest of the world it's basicly 98% are MT's.
Of course, in the rest of the world, fossil fuels cost quite a bit more!
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Also with the newer AT's like VW has, the mileage is actually close. These newer transmissions are not like the ones that have been around for the last 50 yrs, they have electronice and a different system of transfering force to the wheels.
As with any new innovation, my concern would be the durability or "bullet proofness" of the actual technical execution. Last but not least, the extra cost (if any) to repair or replace.
25% and they can also burn biodiesel (which we all know is never going to play a significant role)
where do the diesel fuel reserves come from? Still all unfriendly nations?
Nevertheless, any oil coming from the middle east and other foreign countries, save for a few, is coming from unstable and potentially hostile countries bent on bringing us to our knees.
I say we develop the more expensive sources like the tar sands in Canada now or get the natural gas(about 70 years worth) off of the east coast of the United States (near the Carolinas)and make synthetic fuels. Sooner or later we will have to do it and I would rather now than later when it is cheaper to do it and when it is less likely to have an impact on our country/economy. I would like to see it done in an environmentally friendly manner though.
Where does the diesel that powers the tractors and combines to produce the corn come from? Biodiesel from several different crops is still a better ratio than corn to ethanol. The major thing that ethanol has going for it is its value as an oxygenator. Past that is a loser for all but corporations like ADM.
Just take this in and think about it. We take one barrel of oil and produce with the cooperation of the sun 1.21 barrels of Ethanol. Sounds OK until you further examine ethanol. It has approximately 25% less energy than unleaded gasoline and about 50% less energy than diesel. That makes ethanol a negative gain. Unless you have some secret formula that can give ethanol a boost in energy.
So now we have bought and paid for a barrel of Saudi oil that we use to grow and distill 1.21 barrels of a much lower energy ethanol. You tell me if that is not a major reason ethanol laced gas is now $3 plus per gallon.
Can you show statistics, that with our increase of several billion gallons of ethanol being produced, we have cut our oil imports by that amount. I will bet you cannot. If anything it will be a slight increase in imported oil to make up for the decrease in mileage being reported with our mandated ethanol laced unleaded regular.
I guess 90% of the population should be happy they are making a few folks in the Midwest & Washington DC a pile of money.