Thre are actually three other 'efficiencies of power' let call it to the Prius, including the regenerative braking.
1. regenerative braking which I believe can capture up to 200 Wh of energy in the battery every 5 min.
2. the capture of some of the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it slows, by switching the e-motor to a generator thus having the wheels actually charge the battery
3. the use of the excess horsepower of the ICE while cruising to also charge the battery. During cruising above 40 mph if there is little or no load on the engine it goes to 'idle' at less than 1000 rpms. If the engine would normally turn ( burn fuel ) at say 1500 rpms this is a 'saving' of about 1/3 for small amounts of time individually, but cumulatively a significant amount.
In my view simple is better. If I had a choice between two systems that yielded 50 mpg, one simple and one complex, I would chose the simple. In my view,simplicity is more elegant than complexity. I grant you that they both work, but why re-invent the wheel when you already have it. Diesel engines eliminate most if not all of the pumping losses associated with gassers of any form
Agreed. However the realities of this particular maket at this particular time prohibit widespread sales of the more efficient system. Rather than 'wait' it out until the political forces and technology conform Toyota has made an effort to take the lead in another direction. It still and will produce diesels everywhere else.
But what if all this R&D and knowhow triggers a development of a 'hybrid multiplier' for a diesel as well. In this case Toyota and Honda will be 10-15 yrs ahead of those that waited. Besides if nothing else for 10-15 yrs they have provided vehicles to a market that wanted them and could be legally sold everywhere here.
Well if you were to add up all these efficiencies, what do they add up to? In other words, a Prius gets about 10 mpg more than my Toyota ECHO. (that is on the generous side) Which ammounts to 25% more. It seems to me that if you did things to the ECHO like decrease its weight by 300 pounds, make the engine an Atkinson cycle, make the engine a 1200cc displacement of 50 hp you would be getting very nearly the Prius mileage. There may even be other things the Prius does you could incorporate into the Super ECHO. And the car wouldnt cost anything (or very little) more than a standard ECHO. It would have none of the disadvantages of the Prius and be half the price. And get, nearly, the same mileage. But I want to understand where the Prius gets its "advantage" and how much you are paying for that "advantage". And whether or not thet are worth it.
VW by way of the current CEO (whether you like him or not, for a plethora of reasons) has stated consistently and publically that he sees the diesel as the "go to" fuel(my (sic) meaning) for the next gen or 30 years.
So in effect, the holy grail quest for the "perfect" hybrid, indeed on a macro as well as micro level; drives UP the cost of transporation UNNECESSARILY !!!!
Is a hybrid multiplier for a diesel really necessary? I do not think so. The addition of an autostop function might be all that is needed. Maybe a more efficient transmission might do the trick. Why add the complexity?
The concept of an "autostop function" is very interesting. In effect, the diesels (mine anyway) has/have that EXACT function on long down hills, ie there is NO fuel draw!!! This of course does wonders for MPG (not even to mention ZERO emissions during that cycle) !!!
I will clarify my concept of "autostop". Come to a light, engine idles about 5-10 seconds then stops. Light turns green, step on the accelerator, engine starts instantly, off you go.
When coasting down long hills, have the engine and trans disengage, leaving the engine at idle but using the momentum to carry the vehicle until such time power is needed, unless the cruise control is in use.
It is good to describe your concept. I knew before your explanation that was EXACTLY what you were implying.
On a side note, you of all folks do know the engine braking on modern diesel cars with manual transmissions is severely truncated. (not a bad thing I might add)
Granted any small econobox will always be less costly to own and drive - taking into account the vehicle payments. There has never been any question about this. What the Prius allows a driver to do is to own and drive a upper level midsized auto with entry-lux features with a much nicer ride, better acceleration and more room. All this with 25% better FE than the Echo econobox. For those like who spend lots of time in the vehicle the Echo is not a viable choice.
In looking at fuel efficient vehicle the first thing I did was rule out anything smaller than a Camry/Accord/Jetta. It also had to have all the safety features, ABS, VSC/Traction, ALL the airbags. These things generally are not available on the econoboxs
will clarify my concept of "autostop". Come to a light, engine idles about 5-10 seconds then stops. Light turns green, step on the accelerator, engine starts instantly, off you go.
What's the real benefit here. As you are aware, an idling diesel( VW 1.9 TDI) consumes 250ml/hr. Not much savings there.
When coasting down long hills, have the engine and trans disengage, leaving the engine at idle but using the momentum to carry the vehicle until such time power is needed, unless the cruise control is in use.
The same effect can be achieved by putting it in neutral, or if the slope is steep enough, coast in gear letting the engine control the car's speed - while consuming no fuel in the process.
What you say is true. So it makes a certain amount of sense to define WHY or purposeful, the reason for the car. So for example if you need a car for all seaasons, all reasons etc you might get one thing ie a Prius.... over say a focussed or purposeful reason: such as, my example of a plain jane 54/108 mile a day commute.
In addition to the auto stop, which all vehicles can incorporate now into existing technology, the same three that I noted above should/might be available in diesels as well.
When decelerating using the kinetic energy of the vehicle to charge a storage device.
When cruising, using the excess power not being used to drive the vehicle to charge a storage device.
Turning down the rpm's while cruising to save fuel.(???)
Regen braking.
Being capable to drive alone on battery and e-motor.
Net effect: Potentially a 25-35% improvement on top of the 35% improvement of using just the diesel alone which would be total improvement of about 55%.
Take a midsized vehicle like a Jetta which now gets uses about 2.25 gal/100 mile ( 45 mpg ) if it could be made more efficient by abt 30% then a hybrid might only consume 1.6 gal/100 mi.
Would this be for everyone? Likely not, but it might appeal to those wishing to use the least amount of fuel as possible and/or those wanting better performance.
Cost is relative. What's expensive to some is negligible to another. A Jetta TDI is about $1000 more than its gasser sibling. Does it matter much to anyone? I don't think so.
" But I want to understand where the Prius gets its "advantage" and how much you are paying for that "advantage". And whether or not thet are worth it."
Such an Echo would be an absolute dog on the road - too little power. The Atkinson cycle increases efficiency but reduces output at lower RPMs.
The advantage of the hybrid is the larger, heavier, more comfortable vehicle, along with the MPG of a smaller vehicle.
It also had to have all the safety features, ABS, VSC/Traction
I will disagree with that statement. I imagine less than half the population gain anything from ABS, VSC, ESP PQR, Etc Etc. If you live where you drive on snow and ice maybe. I spent a big share of the last 35 years driving on Ice and snow. Never needed any of those devices. When our trucks got ABS we had to disable, as they are bad news on snow packed gravel. If the ABS module is $1800 as my GMC dealer told me, plus all the other useless crap, you are talking some serious money. It should ONLY be an add-on for those that think they need it. After reading stories of airbags popping open when people hit potholes I am not sure I even want them. My daughter had an accident and the passenger airbag opened and skinned up my 9 yr old grandson's face pretty bad. Her airbag did not deploy and she was unhurt. All the safety stuff is not as important as driving defensively.
I am confused, have have seen this several time "hydrogen fuel is (by weight) 16 per gal and and gets 22 mpg" 16(whats) per gallon. 16 lbs, 16 grams, 16% Lighter then gas, 16apples, 16pears, 16 goats. What does this mean?
Hydrogen will be great when its time comes. Now is not that time. Hydrogen is great because it doesn't polute out the exaust pipe of your car, but how is it produce?
Most of the hydrogen produced in this country is from steam reformation of natural gas which release CO2 into the atmosphere. Or by electrolisis of water and since the majority of the electricty produced in this contry comes from coal or petroluim (not to mention that electrolisis process is only about 85% effeciecent and does not scale with production) you are again putting more CO2 and polutants into the atmosphere. While your car is just spewing water and fresh air and you drive around feeling like your saving the world the plant to produces the fuel is spewing green house gasses and polutants.
Until hydrogen can be produced cleanly from renewable recources (water doesn't count if you are burning coal to make electricity) its not any closer to getting us off of dino fuel than anthing else. Where do you think the extra energy is going to come from to make all of this hydrogen, most likely oil.
Not to mention storage. Until storage of hydrogen in ceramic or metal solids is a reality your aren't going on many long trips. Even under pressure hydrogen is so much less dense the gasoline you would have to have a huge storage tank to go 400 miles. I could go look it but I don't want to so here is the equation for Ideal gas, PV=nRT from that you can calculate the density of hydrogen at pressure. Then compare the heat engery in that volume of tank to the heat energy in the same volume of Gasoline or Diesel. It will be shocking. Not to mention hydrogen molicules are so small that that can litteraly pass through metal tanks. That is why tridum (heavy hydrogen) is stored under vacuum. Under pressure it leachs out.
When hydrogen is made using the sulfer iodine cycle (Wikipedia has a good article on it) at a nuclear power/hydrogen cogeneration plants and we have figured out how to store it in solid form and release it on demand it will be great. Until then keep supporting research universities. We are getting very close but it is still a long way from saving the world.
If a TDI uses 250 ml/hour at idle, how many hours do people sit in heavy traffic in the United States? Many hours so as insignificant as 250 ml/hr appears, it adds up in the long run.
Shifting into neutral as you suggest is an invitation to an accident. Even when coasting down a hill in gear, some fuel is consumed and there also is some compression braking occurring and that uses fuel too. My suggestion was to let there be an electro-mechanical disconnect and allow the engine to idle while the vehicle coasts. Stepping on the accelerator would promptly re-engage the two faster than you could shift from neutral into gear.
Cost is relative. What's expensive to some is negligible to another. A Jetta TDI is about $1000 more than its gasser sibling. Does it matter much to anyone? I don't think so.
I would agree. I would absolutely have no problem with someone spending $12,500 more to do the commute that I had described!
"If a TDI uses 250 ml/hour at idle, how many hours do people sit in heavy traffic in the United States? Many hours so as insignificant as 250 ml/hr appears, it adds up in the long run. "
On a micro level, I just did a SF/SJ CA commute for a week stretch(worse than the LA LA LAND commute. Absolutely grueling stop and go. From a more normal 50 mpg in a fairly idyllic commute, if one can call a commute idyllic, I got (overall) 47.5 mpg.
"All this with 25% better Fe than an ECHO econobox."
So what is FE?
Well the title of the forum is Deals or Duds and I have known for years that first diesels and now hybrids are in deed duds. Economically. I wanted to buy a diesel Rabbit in 1980. You could get a gas rabbit for $6000 something and the diesel was like $8000. I WANTED a diesel rabbit but I figured out you would never save the $2000. THEN I found out you could get a Subaru Hatchback for $3700 so the diesel rabbit made even less sense. It made no sense to buy it. I went through the same thing in 2001 when I bought my ECHO. $13.1k bottom line for the ECHO. I saw a Prius and loved the interior. Understated. Elegent. Real bauhaus. But they wanted $28,000 for it (plus tax etc) and I remembered the diesel rabbit. Now it costs $17,000 to save $2000 in gas. All the Prius does is take your money and give it to Toyota instead of Exxon. BRILLIANT!
I think most folks think the same way you do. I would like a Beetle TDI for running errands. I will not spend $23,000 for that car. I took my wife in to check out the Scion Xb. She really likes the headroom in front and back. The best thing is she can see out all the way around. Our biggest complaint on most new cars is the visibility. We also looked at the FJ Cruiser sitting on the lot. He said it is available to the first one in with the money. My wife told him no thanks that is the ugliest vehicle Toyota has built since the Prius. I may have to look around the country for a buy on a Scion Xb. We have to test drive it and see if it is acceptable handling first.
It is looking more and more like the diesel & the hybrids are duds for us.
so are you gonna teach your wife how to use her side mirrors??
;-)
She likes the Scion xB's looks, but not the Prius???
as they say, "there's no accounting for taste"
more politely - "To each his own"
do drive that Scion - I think you'll be surprised at how junky it is. A 20-year old might not notice (and might not care, given the style-points), but I'd be surprised if any 40-year old American would like it. (this assumes that the American has driven a few cars in his/her lifetime)
We would have to. My wife is pickier than I am. She took her Lexus back several times when it was new for them to get the handling right. It was their first year and even Lexus had growing pains. They ended up changing out most of the front end before it was all done.
Like I told my wife the Xb is SOOO Ugly it is cute. Honda tried with the Element and it is just ugly. The Yaris and FIt are just sardine cans. The main draw to the Xb is room inside and visibility. The car will mostly be used to run to the store less than 3 miles with no freeway.
Mirrors are fine, I am with her I like to be able to see all around me.
PS She likes the Scion xB's looks, but not the Prius???
Again it is the lousy visibilty and that stink bug look that so many cars ended up with.
Honda Civic 38 mpg 3.25 per gal =.0855 cents per gal
TDI 50 mpg 3.19 per gal= .0638 cents per gal
So respectively for a 15,000 per year commute 10,950./1,283./957
So are you advocating the use of hydrogen, because it looks like its about 10 time as expesive.
Besides gallons isn't a very good way to represent the amount of a gas. It is typically costed per lb. I would much rather buy a gallon at 500psi than at 50psi
Agreed and like hybrids it will take something, such as the Gen2 Prius in the hybrid case, to spark wide spread acceptance of the new diesels and the new diesel fuel.
But like the Gen2 Prius it should be in such a vehicle that grabs the publics imagination...early adopters first have to sign on.
Good move from Honda. Seeing the opportunity to to be first in line to take advantage of the likely availability of ULSD it brings it to where economy really hits home and generates excitement. In Mom's control.
Here is a real battle shaping up and Honda is sent off the first volley. Most will concede that the Odyssey and Sienna are No's 1 & 2 in this very visible and prestigious vehicle segment with the Caravan a close third. Honda is taking the lead to make Mom happy which if it works spreads like wildfire.
Honda had to do something dramatic quickly for two reasons: The Accord hybrid is ehh? at best so Honda has to quickly recapture some of the prestige of being at the forefront of conservation and concern for the environment and our resources. This is a good way to get there.
The new Sienna is due out about the same time as the Honda diesel and it is likely that the Sienna will have a hybrid option, IMO. As shown by the HAH, larger-vehicle hybrids are not Honda's specialty. The HCH and HFH are likely to continue to be winners but what should Honda do to fight against the new Sienna hybrid and Tundra hybrid which are likely to be announced at the end of this year. They cannot let Toyota continue to garner all the press, ( ditto for Toyota: Honda announced two plants, Toyota announces 10 new plants ).
In the Odyssey Honda has chosen a key vehicle which is frankly much more visible and influential than either a Jetta or a Liberty and put themselves on the line to convince Mom that choosing the diesel Odyssey is good for her family - less fuel costs mean more money for the family.
Now the education process has to begin. If Honda with it's great rep and the great vibes from the Odyssey, in general, can pull this off then diesels will be off and running. I'd bet on it.
It will be a good contest if it's a Honda diesel Odyssey (HDO?) vs a Toyota Sienna Hybrid (TSH).
"So are you advocating the use of hydrogen, because it looks like its about 10 time as expesive.
Besides gallons isn't a very good way to represent the amount of a gas. It is typically costed per lb. I would much rather buy a gallon at 500psi than at 50psi "
In a word NO!!! Not that #'s of fuel is foreign at all, since in the jet fighter business, #'s of fuel is a common way to express.
As much as indications have suggested, it is easy to misread things in common contexts. I hope you are not advocating increasing the complexity of things by using uncommon references?
Here is a real battle shaping up and Honda is sent off the first volley. Most will concede that the Odyssey and Sienna are No's 1 & 2 in this very visible and prestigious vehicle segment with the Caravan a close third.
What kind of SPIN is that? You know full well that the Caravan outsells the Odyssey by more than 30%. With the Chrysler T&C selling nearly as many as either the Odyssey or Sienna. DCX Minivans OUTSELL all Japanese minivans combined.
If Honda were to offer the MDX with their diesel I would look hard and long at it for sure. It would be going head to head with the Mercedes ML320 CDI due in October. We like the looks of the MDX better than the ML. MDX needs something to gain market share that it has lost.
An Odyssey diesel could be a very smart move. As nice as that minivan is, it is not getting close to EPA mileage estimates. I don't think their VCM is doing as well as expected. They also need an AWD for buyers with poor winter driving conditions. A diesel with AWD would be nice if you need it.
I know that the HAH hasn't done as well as the Prius, but I hope Honda continues to offer it, because I think it provided consumers with a much-needed offering. Consider that the Prius is not exactly a performance vehicle, nor is the Camry Hybrid. To get anything close to "performance" out of a hybrid, you have to buy the GS450H, which is too rich for almost all of us. So where does that leave someone who wants something that is somewhat sporty, but still has environmental credibility? The HAH. I just wish they had waited a year and introduced it with a niftier interior, ala the new Civic. The HAH just seems too vanilla.
It would also be fair to say that I wish the Camry Hybrid was more like the Lexus GS350H. I'd pay a few more bucks for more performance/handling/etc. But that's just me, and I know that isn't really what the market wanted.
Maybe I'll be willing to throw down the bones for a Lexus IS hybrid (which should be south of $45K....in my dreams)
Yeah I almost think a PERFECT mating would be a Honda Pilot/Acura MDX with a potent diesel engine!! I would want a 5/6 speed manual. Coupled with 35-40 mpg, that would not be hard to take!!
I think the Manual transmission is only for the EU. Honda needs to get a decent 6 speed auto like the DSG. I am hoping for a good diesel SUV or 1/2 ton Crewcab PU in the next couple years. I like the GMC hybrid PU I am driving. I don't think the auto stop makes any difference in mileage. I suspect it takes more gas to start than it does to idle for a minute. It occurred to me the auto stop was added to the hybrids to qualify for PZEV. The only time they are ZEV is when the engine is not running.
I have been eyeing the Dodge Ram 2500 Mega CAB, Cummins Diesel, 335 hp/605 #ft of torque, 6 speed manual. It however is WAY too much truck for me in a lot of respects, even as it is capable of 25 mpg on a long haul trip. It is the IDEA 5th wheel tow vehicle, but that implies getting into the 35 ft RV mindset and lifestyle.
I would like a diesel hybrid. I like the idea of both really. As it is I already use as many fuel saving technics as possible. I shut the engine off when I can, like in drive thru's and at long stop lights. I coast as much as I can and I avoid pushing the engine over 3000 rpms. I know that is to much work for most people but I find that it saves enough gas that I notice my tanks last longer. If one could combine the high city mileage of the gas/electric hybrids with the power and high freeway mileage of a diesel it would be great. I know, it would be even more expensive than a gas/electric. That would have to be worked out.
We have a 2004 Dodge 2500 standard cab dually at our business. It has been a good truck for a hauling. With a 20 foot cargo trailer it will get up to 16 mpg. We hauled 3000 pounds of rolled steel in the bed and got 19mpg over a 500 mile trip. I know, overloaded. but nothing has broken yet.
I came close to buying a fullsize diesel truck. I just could not justify the premium for hauling my small trailer. I will wait till the head is removed from the rear of the EPA/CARB crowd. Maybe some automaker will offer a practical diesel PU truck. I know it would be easy to get 30-35 MPG with a smaller diesel in a 1/2 ton PU. I get up to 24.81 MPG on my 8000lb Sprinter conversion van. I would love that 5 cylinder Mercedes diesel in a 1/2 ton PU. That 5 speed auto is great also. Tiptronic works super going down steep grades.
I think it might be difficult for the gasser folks to comprehend 400-605 # ft of torque!! Part of the reason might be we have been SOOOOO conditioned to associate that with 0-60 times, and monster 427 tricked out engines. Almost all of us would agree on a practical basis that most folks don't really do much 0-60 in 4 seconds.
Regardless of sales numbers, speak to the majority of van buyers and most will pick one of the two, Odyssey or Sienna, as the best.. and the Caravan as the third but least expensive. Therefore it sells the most.
Comments
1. regenerative braking which I believe can capture up to 200 Wh of energy in the battery every 5 min.
2. the capture of some of the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it slows, by switching the e-motor to a generator thus having the wheels actually charge the battery
3. the use of the excess horsepower of the ICE while cruising to also charge the battery. During cruising above 40 mph if there is little or no load on the engine it goes to 'idle' at less than 1000 rpms. If the engine would normally turn ( burn fuel ) at say 1500 rpms this is a 'saving' of about 1/3 for small amounts of time individually, but cumulatively a significant amount.
Agreed. However the realities of this particular maket at this particular time prohibit widespread sales of the more efficient system. Rather than 'wait' it out until the political forces and technology conform Toyota has made an effort to take the lead in another direction. It still and will produce diesels everywhere else.
But what if all this R&D and knowhow triggers a development of a 'hybrid multiplier' for a diesel as well. In this case Toyota and Honda will be 10-15 yrs ahead of those that waited. Besides if nothing else for 10-15 yrs they have provided vehicles to a market that wanted them and could be legally sold everywhere here.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/25/BUGK8J1JK11.DTL
Sale and manufacture of hybrids hit some potholes
The article is filled with bad logic, but take it for what it’s worth.
But I want to understand where the Prius gets its "advantage" and how much you are paying for that "advantage". And whether or not thet are worth it.
VW by way of the current CEO (whether you like him or not, for a plethora of reasons) has stated consistently and publically that he sees the diesel as the "go to" fuel(my (sic) meaning) for the next gen or 30 years.
So in effect, the holy grail quest for the "perfect" hybrid, indeed on a macro as well as micro level; drives UP the cost of transporation UNNECESSARILY !!!!
What market realities are you talking about?
When coasting down long hills, have the engine and trans disengage, leaving the engine at idle but using the momentum to carry the vehicle until such time power is needed, unless the cruise control is in use.
On a side note, you of all folks do know the engine braking on modern diesel cars with manual transmissions is severely truncated. (not a bad thing I might add)
In looking at fuel efficient vehicle the first thing I did was rule out anything smaller than a Camry/Accord/Jetta. It also had to have all the safety features, ABS, VSC/Traction, ALL the airbags. These things generally are not available on the econoboxs
CARB and EPA maybe.
Since you present such vivid arguments, I'll reply in similar fashion.
"Right."
Nothing to do the the merits of hybrids Vs. diesels.
What's the real benefit here. As you are aware, an idling diesel( VW 1.9 TDI) consumes 250ml/hr. Not much savings there.
When coasting down long hills, have the engine and trans disengage, leaving the engine at idle but using the momentum to carry the vehicle until such time power is needed, unless the cruise control is in use.
The same effect can be achieved by putting it in neutral, or if the slope is steep enough, coast in gear letting the engine control the car's speed - while consuming no fuel in the process.
When decelerating using the kinetic energy of the vehicle to charge a storage device.
When cruising, using the excess power not being used to drive the vehicle to charge a storage device.
Turning down the rpm's while cruising to save fuel.(???)
Regen braking.
Being capable to drive alone on battery and e-motor.
Net effect: Potentially a 25-35% improvement on top of the 35% improvement of using just the diesel alone which would be total improvement of about 55%.
Take a midsized vehicle like a Jetta which now gets uses about 2.25 gal/100 mile ( 45 mpg ) if it could be made more efficient by abt 30% then a hybrid might only consume 1.6 gal/100 mi.
Would this be for everyone? Likely not, but it might appeal to those wishing to use the least amount of fuel as possible and/or those wanting better performance.
Cost is relative. What's expensive to some is negligible to another. A Jetta TDI is about $1000 more than its gasser sibling. Does it matter much to anyone? I don't think so.
The Edmunds forums are topic driven, so that people can read a thread that interests them.
This is a topic about diesels and hyrids. If you want a topic about fuel costs, by all means start one.
Well, sort of. The Echo actually was produced after the first Prius prototypes. So the Gen 1 Prius is similar to the Echo, though not an exact copy.
Gen 2 is a separate redesign.
The base engines are the same.
Such an Echo would be an absolute dog on the road - too little power. The Atkinson cycle increases efficiency but reduces output at lower RPMs.
The advantage of the hybrid is the larger, heavier, more comfortable vehicle, along with the MPG of a smaller vehicle.
are we only here to discuss the TECHNOLOGY? I don't think so.
Diesels work.
Hybrids work.
The COST of these technologies is what makes them deals or duds? How do you define "Deal" if not by discussing COST?
Riddle me that, Batman.
I will disagree with that statement. I imagine less than half the population gain anything from ABS, VSC, ESP PQR, Etc Etc. If you live where you drive on snow and ice maybe. I spent a big share of the last 35 years driving on Ice and snow. Never needed any of those devices. When our trucks got ABS we had to disable, as they are bad news on snow packed gravel. If the ABS module is $1800 as my GMC dealer told me, plus all the other useless crap, you are talking some serious money. It should ONLY be an add-on for those that think they need it. After reading stories of airbags popping open when people hit potholes I am not sure I even want them. My daughter had an accident and the passenger airbag opened and skinned up my 9 yr old grandson's face pretty bad. Her airbag did not deploy and she was unhurt. All the safety stuff is not as important as driving defensively.
Hydrogen will be great when its time comes. Now is not that time. Hydrogen is great because it doesn't polute out the exaust pipe of your car, but how is it produce?
Most of the hydrogen produced in this country is from steam reformation of natural gas which release CO2 into the atmosphere. Or by electrolisis of water and since the majority of the electricty produced in this contry comes from coal or petroluim (not to mention that electrolisis process is only about 85% effeciecent and does not scale with production) you are again putting more CO2 and polutants into the atmosphere. While your car is just spewing water and fresh air and you drive around feeling like your saving the world the plant to produces the fuel is spewing green house gasses and polutants.
Until hydrogen can be produced cleanly from renewable recources (water doesn't count if you are burning coal to make electricity) its not any closer to getting us off of dino fuel than anthing else. Where do you think the extra energy is going to come from to make all of this hydrogen, most likely oil.
Not to mention storage. Until storage of hydrogen in ceramic or metal solids is a reality your aren't going on many long trips. Even under pressure hydrogen is so much less dense the gasoline you would have to have a huge storage tank to go 400 miles. I could go look it but I don't want to so here is the equation for Ideal gas, PV=nRT from that you can calculate the density of hydrogen at pressure. Then compare the heat engery in that volume of tank to the heat energy in the same volume of Gasoline or Diesel. It will be shocking. Not to mention hydrogen molicules are so small that that can litteraly pass through metal tanks. That is why tridum (heavy hydrogen) is stored under vacuum. Under pressure it leachs out.
When hydrogen is made using the sulfer iodine cycle (Wikipedia has a good article on it) at a nuclear power/hydrogen cogeneration plants and we have figured out how to store it in solid form and release it on demand it will be great. Until then keep supporting research universities. We are getting very close but it is still a long way from saving the world.
vs
Honda Civic @ 38 mpg @ 3.25 per gal =.0855 cents per gal
TDI @ 50 mpg @ 3.19 per gal= .0638 cents per gal
So respectively for a 15,000 per year commute 10,950./1,283./957.
Shifting into neutral as you suggest is an invitation to an accident. Even when coasting down a hill in gear, some fuel is consumed and there also is some compression braking occurring and that uses fuel too. My suggestion was to let there be an electro-mechanical disconnect and allow the engine to idle while the vehicle coasts. Stepping on the accelerator would promptly re-engage the two faster than you could shift from neutral into gear.
I would agree. I would absolutely have no problem with someone spending $12,500 more to do the commute that I had described!
On a micro level, I just did a SF/SJ CA commute for a week stretch(worse than the LA LA LAND commute. Absolutely grueling stop and go. From a more normal 50 mpg in a fairly idyllic commute, if one can call a commute idyllic, I got (overall) 47.5 mpg.
The limiting issue is availability more than these two agencies. VW can barely keep up with demand in the EU.
The next big problem is how the United States public views diesels. There are several stigmas that must be overcome.
Hydrogen has very little heat energy per gallon.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/100335/article.html
above is a more technical description.
So what is FE?
Well the title of the forum is Deals or Duds and I have known for years that first diesels and now hybrids are in deed duds. Economically. I wanted to buy a diesel Rabbit in 1980. You could get a gas rabbit for $6000 something and the diesel was like $8000. I WANTED a diesel rabbit but I figured out you would never save the $2000. THEN I found out you could get a Subaru Hatchback for $3700 so the diesel rabbit made even less sense. It made no sense to buy it.
I went through the same thing in 2001 when I bought my ECHO. $13.1k bottom line for the ECHO. I saw a Prius and loved the interior. Understated. Elegent. Real bauhaus. But they wanted $28,000 for it (plus tax etc) and I remembered the diesel rabbit. Now it costs $17,000 to save $2000 in gas. All the Prius does is take your money and give it to Toyota instead of Exxon. BRILLIANT!
It is looking more and more like the diesel & the hybrids are duds for us.
;-)
She likes the Scion xB's looks, but not the Prius???
as they say, "there's no accounting for taste"
more politely - "To each his own"
do drive that Scion - I think you'll be surprised at how junky it is. A 20-year old might not notice (and might not care, given the style-points), but I'd be surprised if any 40-year old American would like it. (this assumes that the American has driven a few cars in his/her lifetime)
We would have to. My wife is pickier than I am. She took her Lexus back several times when it was new for them to get the handling right. It was their first year and even Lexus had growing pains. They ended up changing out most of the front end before it was all done.
Like I told my wife the Xb is SOOO Ugly it is cute. Honda tried with the Element and it is just ugly. The Yaris and FIt are just sardine cans. The main draw to the Xb is room inside and visibility. The car will mostly be used to run to the store less than 3 miles with no freeway.
Mirrors are fine, I am with her I like to be able to see all around me.
PS
She likes the Scion xB's looks, but not the Prius???
Again it is the lousy visibilty and that stink bug look that so many cars ended up with.
vs
Honda Civic 38 mpg 3.25 per gal =.0855 cents per gal
TDI 50 mpg 3.19 per gal= .0638 cents per gal
So respectively for a 15,000 per year commute 10,950./1,283./957
So are you advocating the use of hydrogen, because it looks like its about 10 time as expesive.
Besides gallons isn't a very good way to represent the amount of a gas. It is typically costed per lb. I would much rather buy a gallon at 500psi than at 50psi
But like the Gen2 Prius it should be in such a vehicle that grabs the publics imagination...early adopters first have to sign on.
Honda to launch diesel Odyssey & Acura MDX in US
Good move from Honda. Seeing the opportunity to to be first in line to take advantage of the likely availability of ULSD it brings it to where economy really hits home and generates excitement. In Mom's control.
Here is a real battle shaping up and Honda is sent off the first volley. Most will concede that the Odyssey and Sienna are No's 1 & 2 in this very visible and prestigious vehicle segment with the Caravan a close third. Honda is taking the lead to make Mom happy which if it works spreads like wildfire.
Honda had to do something dramatic quickly for two reasons:
The Accord hybrid is ehh? at best so Honda has to quickly recapture some of the prestige of being at the forefront of conservation and concern for the environment and our resources. This is a good way to get there.
The new Sienna is due out about the same time as the Honda diesel and it is likely that the Sienna will have a hybrid option, IMO. As shown by the HAH, larger-vehicle hybrids are not Honda's specialty. The HCH and HFH are likely to continue to be winners but what should Honda do to fight against the new Sienna hybrid and Tundra hybrid which are likely to be announced at the end of this year. They cannot let Toyota continue to garner all the press, ( ditto for Toyota: Honda announced two plants, Toyota announces 10 new plants ).
In the Odyssey Honda has chosen a key vehicle which is frankly much more visible and influential than either a Jetta or a Liberty and put themselves on the line to convince Mom that choosing the diesel Odyssey is good for her family - less fuel costs mean more money for the family.
Now the education process has to begin. If Honda with it's great rep and the great vibes from the Odyssey, in general, can pull this off then diesels will be off and running. I'd bet on it.
It will be a good contest if it's a Honda diesel Odyssey (HDO?) vs a Toyota Sienna Hybrid (TSH).
Besides gallons isn't a very good way to represent the amount of a gas. It is typically costed per lb. I would much rather buy a gallon at 500psi than at 50psi "
In a word NO!!! Not that #'s of fuel is foreign at all, since in the jet fighter business, #'s of fuel is a common way to express.
As much as indications have suggested, it is easy to misread things in common contexts. I hope you are not advocating increasing the complexity of things by using uncommon references?
What kind of SPIN is that? You know full well that the Caravan outsells the Odyssey by more than 30%. With the Chrysler T&C selling nearly as many as either the Odyssey or Sienna. DCX Minivans OUTSELL all Japanese minivans combined.
If Honda were to offer the MDX with their diesel I would look hard and long at it for sure. It would be going head to head with the Mercedes ML320 CDI due in October. We like the looks of the MDX better than the ML. MDX needs something to gain market share that it has lost.
An Odyssey diesel could be a very smart move. As nice as that minivan is, it is not getting close to EPA mileage estimates. I don't think their VCM is doing as well as expected. They also need an AWD for buyers with poor winter driving conditions. A diesel with AWD would be nice if you need it.
It would also be fair to say that I wish the Camry Hybrid was more like the Lexus GS350H. I'd pay a few more bucks for more performance/handling/etc. But that's just me, and I know that isn't really what the market wanted.
Maybe I'll be willing to throw down the bones for a Lexus IS hybrid (which should be south of $45K....in my dreams)