My contention is that the biggest percentage of hybrid owners DO NOT come out ahead financially.
I KNOW what your contention is. The problem with YOUR contention is that it is a straw man argument. I know hybrid owners. None of them bought their hybrid to save money. So you set up a false argument, and then you knock it down.
Most Prius owners simply do not want to drive anEcho. Why is that so hard for you to swallow?
Let me let you in on a secret: When a hybrid buyer buys a hybrid, they are not spending YOUR money. They are spending their money. I think they can decide for themselves if it is a smart purchase financially. Frankly, I don't CARE if it is smart or not. It is their choice to make a silly financial choice, same as the guy who buys the CTS-V or the new Malibu, etc. etc.
I'm all for wide latitude in what we can discuss, here. Remember, I'm the guy who thinks the cost of the US Navy should be figured into the cost of each gallon of gasoline.
My debate with you started wrt your comment about "environmentalists" which you've refused to retract. This just happens to be an on-topic tangent.
You could velcro a $350 Garmin to the dash and save about 20 grand. With a CRX you will have a classic that is worth more in 20 years than a Prius will be.
Let me let you in on a secret: When a hybrid buyer buys a hybrid, they are not spending YOUR money. They are spending their money. I think they can decide for themselves if it is a smart purchase financially.
I am so glad you brought that up. I can not tell you how many hybrid folks have gotten down right hateful about those of us that like SUVs & PU trucks to drive. If it was just a matter of money we could also buy an Echo. It goes beyond money. It is comfort, convenience, utility and safety, all of which are higher on my list than fuel economy. None of which any of the current hybrids can fulfill.
My debate with you started wrt your comment about "environmentalists" which you've refused to retract.
I think you lost me on that one. Which debate the one over regulations that make no sense? Or the fact that many environmental groups oppose the current methods of making Ethanol?
That is also true on the Edmunds.com board. All one has to do is to go on the (for read only) I hate SUV's Why don't you? Board.
So in truth, I would say both Gagrice and I would agree with your lil secret!! However that might still not mitigate some of the "anti ism" that the hybrid advocates hold near and dear. I also bet that if you took a poll a fair to majority of the hybrid population would support a ban on diesel.
not ignoring your comments - am just running from one meeting to another
I do understand the SUV arguments, even the one about crumple-zone stealing. I know how SUV folks like to steal their safety from other vehicles.
But all that doesn't translate into your being right about your arguments about hybrids. You create the straw man and knock it down. And many people applaud, even though you've proven nothing of any value. But you DID further convince the dumb guys on the sidelines. Hooray.
but sometimes somebody smart wants to discuss the issues
I know you can keep up (andeven stay ahead) in those discussions.
by the way, I don't agree with Sailor's lame arguments about SUVs - well, not ALL of them, anyway
I do believe that we should all drive what we want, EVEN SUV and HYBRID drivers!!! :-)
..." do believe that we should all drive what we want, EVEN SUV and HYBRID drivers!!! :-) "...
Amen! Remove the 5 state bans on diesel products. Finally let diesel products into the country ala for every (FOR EXAMPLE) every or most European models has a gasser version also has a D or diesel version.
I do believe that we should all drive what we want, EVEN SUV and HYBRID drivers
Now we are on even ground, as I believe in those freedoms also. I have tried to convince buyers with a long commute to buy a Civic or Prius hybrid. Driving solo on a long commute in an SUV is about as dumb as taking off across the Sahara desert in a Prius. Trying to make one type vehicle fit all people is crazy. Though there are people on this forum that will swear the Prius and HSD is the only thing that is worth a hoot. They go so far as to bad mouth other brands of hybrid cars. They in their minds think Toyota is some god that has the perfect vehicle for all automotive needs. I take exception to that kind of mindset and will use most any argument to convince those that are interested that narrow mindedness is not the answer.
I do believe in the discussions, we have circumnavigated some of the issues. Purposed vehicles and their selection is really a good way to go. However because of the spiraling expenses both acquisition and operating, we sometimes are forced into selecting a jack of all trades master of none compromise.
I heavily promote "full" hybrids and the emission rating minimum of SULEV.
That endorses an emission & efficiency improvement goal without making any reference to a specific vehicle type or even brand.
The diesel supporters set the bar quite a bit lower. Not even delivering a ULEV emission rating is very disappointing. Most non-hybrid gas vehicles already do better than that. As for efficiency, automatic diesels provide MPG similar to "full" hybrids during study cruising on the highway, but in all other situations the diesel does worse and the hybrid does better.
So the attempts here to dismiss data by making personal references rather than keeping the focus on goals is disingenuous, at best. As for the narrow mindedness, improvement to just efficiency alone falls right into that category.
Remember, the "full" hybrid offers a variety of configurations, allowing for the size of the motors, engine, and battery-pack to be adjusted based on the consumers needs while still delivering an emission & efficiency improvement. Also, don't forget that the next generation is suppose to reduce the cost of the system too.
So in the end, your attempt to stereotype holds little merit.
I can tell you that if I had to commute the distance you drive I would have a Jetta TDI. If I had an in town delivery service carrying small stuff I might consider the Prius. In spite of all the bad connotations that go along with owning one.
The diesel supporters set the bar quite a bit lower. Not even delivering a ULEV emission rating is very disappointing.
I guess I am disappointed in the fact that those interested in saving the planet along with the fossil fuel we have left, are always having to fight with other folks that have an agenda to sell their idea of how to accomplish the common goal. I started out pro hybrid. It is not the technology as much as the folks that worship it that has turned me in other directions. I was trying to save gas and clean up our lousy air in California probably before you were born. I moved to Alaska to get out of the bad smog in 1970.
What needs to happen is a practical set of rules to maintain our air quality and lessen our use of fossil fuel. The hybrid is good at keeping the air clean. It still uses fossil fuel. PZEV may not be bad in itself. If all other options are thrown to the wind to achieve that goal I have to think it is bad.
The state you live in the PU truck is a common mode of transportation in the farm community. If the EPA would allow a smaller PU truck with a smaller diesel engine it would cut emissions and fossil fuel usage. It would be quite simple to start using a biodiesel blend, which is even better. To think that people are going to pay extra to drive a FFV using E85 when it gets lousy mileage is absurd. Plus a FFV is not up to what is needed if you haul much of a load.
If there can be no compromise in your mind. If it is PZEV or nothing the battle will continue. You will make your claims and I will make mine. Let the people decide who is right and who is wrong.
Remember, the "full" hybrid offers a variety of configurations
Do you accept the Honda Civic Hybrid as a "full" hybrid? If not I wonder why? It is just as economical as the Prius and costs less to buy one. More of a hybrid for the masses than the Prius.
You have some strange impressions of how emissions actually work. Reducing the size of a pickup, even to a small diesel, will still be dirtier than an ordinary gas pickup. And using biodiesel increases the level of NOx emissions.
Civic-Hybrid always has been an "assist" hybrid. You wondering why it is not thought of as a "full" reveals a rather huge misunderstanding of hybrid technology.
The most interesting part though is how Camry-Hybrid continues to be ignored. Having the hybrid feature as an option on the most popular selling car in America would naturally scare any diesel supporter. You certainly can't mock the car. And focusing on just the hybrid feature alone prevents the usual antagonist tricks from being used. Bummer, eh?
..."Having the hybrid feature as an option on the most popular selling car in America would naturally scare any diesel supporter."...
I certainly do not think anyone is mocking the car at all.
I think it is the other way around. The diesel option scares the pants off the control a crates and hybrid advocates. Take the bans off diesel so that Camry can be offered in a diesel. Surely undoing the bans will not hurt the hybrids competitve edge now can it?
small diesel, will still be dirtier than an ordinary gas pickup.
Maybe you have some credible evidence that a small modern diesel engine using ULSD is more polluting than a full size V8 gas engine. You only focus on one element of the pollution. Why don't you address honestly PM, HC, SoX & CO? I leave out Nox and I'm the one spreading misinformation. You leave out a whole gamut of pollution and it is acceptable. We have more than one issue to deal with. Fossil fuel usage needs to be curtailed. Diesel is still the most efficient way to use our resources in a vehicle. That should have been the thrust instead of trying to make the less efficient gasoline clean. Don't blame that on people that want a more efficient, longer lived engine. It is the government and their bowing to big oil interests. Now they are feeding at the big Agri business trough.
The most interesting part though is how Camry-Hybrid continues to be ignored.
As far as the TCH, I keep track of that thread as well. Have not seen you in there. I happen to like the Camry. Well I did like the older Camry. The new one is a disappointment. Not just the hybrid. The only complaint I would have with the TCH is the smaller trunk. I would not buy one cuz I think they are ugly now that I have seen them in person. Toyota took the best selling midsized sedan, made it bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. Both for passengers and luggage. Then they cut the mileage on the best selling 4 cylinder. I guess it does not pay to try to improve on something as good as the Camry. I have not seen the May figures. Camry sales were off through April compared to last year. I must not be the only one that does not like the new look with less room.
If I had an in town delivery service carrying small stuff I might consider the Prius. In spite of all the bad connotations that go along with owning one.
see, this is where you and I have a problem
for somne reason, you have "bad connotations" re hybrids. I guess I could tell you to "get out more" or "maybe you should hang out with more enlightened people," but that will do no good.
Dude, there ain't no bad connotations, except the ones YOU dream up in this message board
Get out of the house, smell the coffee - there are NORMAL people who drive hybrids. They are not nutjobs. No one is flipping them the bird.
I think you need to get a life outside of hanging out in places like this. [not meant with any malice, I assure you]
Pretty simple, hybrid advocates claim this is so. Or more to the point some to most of the hybrid advocates say it will decrease our dependence on foreign oil. As I and Gagrice and a few others have pointed out, it is not true.
We must disagree and it's over one word. Hybrids - and diesels - do decrease our dependence on foreign oil however they do not eliminate our use of foreign oil.
The best solution to achieve this elimination is to prohibit the importation of any fuel for any reason thereby forcing the population to become self-sufficient energy wise. This may be doable with the technology soon at our fingertips. Politically it would create a firestorm.
In the face of this reality any method that causes us to use less fuel for whatever use keeps more money here and sends less to our less-than-friends in the Mideast.
OT, but you know the backhands to the Camry can't go without reply.
Toyota took the best selling midsized sedan, made it bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. Both for passengers and luggage.
In truth it is exactly the same as the previous Gen in overall dimensions but it's a conundrum. To some it appears larger on the outside and to many it almost appears Corolla sized "Why'd they shrink the Camry" at first glance. It's almost a 'trick of the eye'.
Inside there is actually more leg/hip room but they lowered the seating an inch and made the roof sleeker ( lower ) and raised the waistline so from the inside it appears tighter. It isn't. At just under 6' I can't reach the pedals with the seat all the way back. This never happened before. And there is still room in the backseat. The trunk is smaller because there is actually more room in the cabin.
Then they cut the mileage on the best selling 4 cylinder. I guess it does not pay to try to improve on something as good as the Camry. I have not seen the May figures. Camry sales were off through April compared to last year. I must not be the only one that does not like the new look with less room.
Added weight and more competitive HP ratings caused the 4c to move from 34 Hwy to 33 Hwy ( EPA ). But this is the Gen of the 'V6's'. The amazing 268 hp 31 mph Hwy ICE and the 187 hp 38 mpg Hwy TCH are the news. All the emphasis is on these two.
April was the first full month of sales on this Gen6. It was even with Apr '05; May was 7.75% higher than April and 7.75% over May '05.
This Gen 6 will be a the new standard for midsized autos for sometime.
"The Energy Department and private industry estimate that a trillion barrels are here in Colorado - about the same amount as the entire world's known reserves of conventional oil. The entire Green River Formation might hold as much as 2 trillion barrels."
for some reason, you have "bad connotations" re hybrids.
I can assure you the hybrids are raising issues far beyond what I would be inclined to say. I had nothing to do with the LA Times article. A very pro hybrid newspaper. Here are a few "bad connotations" of which I did not originate any of them:
Poor economics much lower than advertised Mileage unknown battery and component life discourteous driver attributes Too much celebrity & elitism surround the Prius overly complex (1/3 more components) Arrogance on the part of some owners blocking HOV lanes Looks like an alien space ship
Tell me you have not heard at least some of those complaints from outside the Edmund's Forum. As I said before none of that would stop me from buying a hybrid if I had need for one. Heck I own a Sierra Hybrid. And I like it.
I think its very relevent. When I bought my 2001 ECHO I looked at a Prius also. Although the sticker on the Prius was $21,000,(as did the info in Edmunds) the dealer was charging $28,000(plus tax) Hmm that ammounts to $15,000 to save $2000 of gas over the life of the car. I have read in articles about the HC that the price is $30,000 to $40,000. I have learned you cant trust Toyota or Edmunds for that matter to give the TRUE price of a car when it comes to hybrids.
To weigh in, I think even as the thread is hybrid vs diesels; deals or duds, one should really focus on the purpose of the vehicle., or what it is really being used for and under what conditions for the various percentages of the cars yearly and mileage life.
As others have pointed out (on different sides of the discussion I might add) many many many reasons can be cited for and against buying a hybrid. Just some examples:
To a movie star who makes say 7-30 m per picture, it is probably one of the "cheapest" status symbols! It is far better than that even, if Toyota gives it to them to drive, just to be seen around town in it!! But even if they buy it themselves, the price is VERY VERY south of say much higher end MB, JAG, Bentley, BMW, etc that they would probably have gotten.
Of late, there are even political campaign print pieces to declare a metaphoric "green ness. " Here is one that came in the mail; using a dark blue or black Toyota Prius. "Ellen Corbett, Democrat for State Senate,(www.corbettforsenate.com) polluting the USPS system. This might be an obvious visual pun in cap or foil to AhNold's multiple Hummer ownership.
..."I drive a (Toyota, my sic) Prius, and have been for over 2 years. I got my Prius soon after they were widely available for the first time and was one of the first members of the state legislature to get a hybrid."...
Gee I wonder if she can write off the Prius as Campaign expenses? So if she wins, how much can be attributed to vote getting or vote losing mugging with a Toyota Prius? As an incumbent state legislator they don't pay gas expenses anyway. The lease payments are covered by the taxpayer ANYWAY. I wonder if they get to get the money if under their monthly allowance for fuel?
More to reality for normal people, 25,000 vs 12,600 will buy a lot of commute gas, don't you think?
In my own case ($12,400/$3.15=3937. gal x 38 149,587 miles (/14,256 per year 10.49 years
$28000 vs $21000..?? methinks someone was joking when they gave you that quote. There were no markups on the Prius back then in 2001. It was hardly known at all and they only sold under 10000 all year. The 'markups' only hit the Prius in Jan 2004 when the new Gen2 arrived.
Somebody was pulling your leg back then. It was sooo unknown then that the last 2003's were discounted to invoice.
I have read in articles about the HC that the price is $30,000 to $40,000
You will have to provide the sources for these articles because as all the buyers know the MSRP's are either $26700 or $28000 or $30500 depending on what equipment you want... nothing more. Again I think someone is pulling your leg.
Maybe they heard something from someone who was told something by a friend who knows somebody 'in-the-know' that hybrids must be more expensive than normal cars ( heck they are so complex ) so the price must be in the $40000 range.
When I test drove the first two Prius at El Cajon Toyota they were $20k. Salesman said they cost Toyota $35k to build and it was a promotion to get them on the road. What was a big selling point to me was the 8yr 100k mile B-B warranty. My ex-wife did not like the car. I was going to buy it for her just before the divorce. I thought it was a good deal. She ended up with her 1990 Camry, though she wanted my Suburban. I tried.
This car was at Cherry Hill Toyota in Cherry Hill NJ. $28,000 was the price on the add ons to the sitcker. I didnt buy my ECHO there because they wanted $15,000+ for the cheapest car they were selling. I eventually bought my ECHO at Runnemead Toyota for $13,100. Thats what I wrote the check for. When I enquired about a Prius there, they told me most of the hybrid cars were being sold in CA and no dealer in NJ was getting any. I have found the Cherry Hill dealer to be incompetant on many levels. I recently needed an outside mirror for my ECHO. TWICE they ordered the wrong one. Then they said Toyota doesnt make it. When I recently put a muffler on my daughters 92 Camry they first said the muffler was $130. Then they called back and said it was $240. Then they called back and said Toyota doesnt have any 92 Camry mufflers in the entire country. I got the muffler from Runnemead Toyota for $212 installed the next day. I read an article about the CH in the NY Times Online about a month ago. They claimed that was the price they saw on a Camry on a dealers showroom floor. Sorry but I dont have the article! I suggest going to Cherry Hill Toyota and looking at CHs there!
saturn vue "green line" hybrid. 29 mpg, $22k. N I C E ! available in August. that seems to compare quite favorably to liberty CRD although we won't be seeing many more of those and will get grand cherokee bluetec diesel 3.0 instead (better). camry hybrid looks nifty too, even if one might have to wait 6 months to get one without NAV, without dead-animal seats, without a 42-CD changer. it takes a lot to embarass me but driving/riding in a prius was definitely embarassing even while my engineer brain cell enjoyed all the high-techness designed into prius. i always get a kick out of seeing the 'stereotype' of driver who is driving a prius or TDI. on the cool side for prius, at least the prius is marginally cooler than the honda insight or wheeling along in those sneakers with wheels built-in and flashing LEDs in the soles.
I can well believe that the Prius costs $35,000 for Toyota to manufacture. I have worked in manufacturing for 27 years and I have a pretty good idea how much something costs to make. My guess in 2001 was that the hybrid drive easily doubled the cost of manufacture. (the Prius being simply a hybrid ECHO) Not developments costs either. I would not be a bit suprised that Toyota cracked down on dealers adding $7000 to the price! They msut REALLY have been PISSED!
Then, I am glad the only differentiation on a VW Jetta TDI are three small letters: TDI, 1/3 rd the size of the alpha/ numerics on a state license plate. Folks can barely read the license plate!! I think the only ones who would notice, let alone CARE are probably other TDI owners and I would say the majority of those don't CARE!!
(According to VW sales figures the subset of TDI 's is 4% of the VW population)
In my case, it might be members of our regional area TDI Club in which case is app less than 50 members
I can not recall ever in 74,000 miles and three years getting a (sign) thumbs up in recognition of driving a TDI.
Might be a way different story on the outline of the Prius however. I hope for civility's sake they are not getting more than their share of ITALIAN salutations.
This had not occurred to me till just now, but in the TDI, no matter whether others are faster or slower or along side of it, the TDI is almost upwards of 99% of the time getting better fuel mileage than those other vehicles!!!! .
around these parts the tdi geeks do sometimes give a thumbs up or a friendly spawning sooty to other TDIs. surely the prius owners have some sort of greeting, an inductive or EMP energy/transponder exchange, something high-tech? much socializing is done at diesel pumps with other diesel geeks as well as curious truckers - this in contrast to the antisocial gasoline pump tradition of awkwardly not looking at the other people as if it's an elevator ride. i do truly enjoy that Prius is the AMC Pacer of styling today - the Pacer was awesome in all ways except it lacked a diesel engine option.
Saw my first Honda diesel in Italy a few days ago configured in a van smaller than the Odyssey but very nice looking. Diesels are not marketed in Europe, they are gobbled up. I always ask for a diesel when I rent because they are so much easier and economical to drive. I also did not leave Italy with a film of diesel exhaust coating.
Chrysler, a unit of DaimlerChrysler AG (DCXGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research), said the turbo diesel engine for the Grand Cherokee would be supplied by Mercedes-Benz, its luxury car brand, and built in Berlin.
Diesel vehicles represent more than 60 percent of Chrysler sales in Western Europe, but a new generation of diesel engines has yet to catch on in the United States despite improved fuel economy compared with traditional gasoline engines.
With consumer surveys suggesting more car buyers are considering gas alternatives, Chrysler is betting heavily on diesel-based powertrains, which many analysts see as an attractive option to replace the big engines in trucks and SUVs.
Kind of difficult for them to catch on if they are not offered.
There is no way of knowing the VW is a diesel unless you are behind one and see the TDI. An Echo is easy to spot. I got waves from other people in Sprinter conversion vans When we made out trip to Texas. We even struck up a friendship with an Airstream Sprinter owner that emails us on his journey across the USA.
Tell me about the girls with the Echo. Are they as good looking as the ones you get with a Ferrari?
"The diesel Liberty exceeded our expectations," says Dianna Gutierrez, a Chrysler Group spokeswoman. "Unfortunately, with the EPA emissions rates becoming stricter for 2007, we were unable to see a credible business case to continue producing that vehicle with the changes that need to be made."
If the government can refrain from reacting to environmental alarmists, who want zero emissions vehicles (but demand they be cheap, too), diesel-powered cars and trucks can significantly improve fuel economy in the United States. If one-third of all vehicles were diesels in 2020, we could save as much oil as is currently imported from Saudi Arabia, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.
New US standards for diesel fuel that went into effect June 1 are expected to open the door for auto manufacturers to introduce more diesel-powered cars to the US market, industry analysts say.
The new environmental rules require a 97 percent reduction in the sulfur content of highway diesel fuel, from its current level of 500 parts per million (ppm), to 15 ppm. Refiners were required to start producing this cleaner fuel as of Thursday, and it should be available nationwide by October 15.
In addition to the obvious benefit of reducing emissions from the 13 million heavy trucks using diesel fuel, the new cleaner fuel could make it easier for automakers to introduce more passenger diesel cars that meet strict US emissions standards.
Only about 3.6 percent of new passenger vehicles registered in the US were powered by diesel, according to the Diesel Technology Forum, an industry group. . That is a sharp contrast to Europe, where about half the cars use diesel fuel.
But the US market is expected to rise, in part because of the better fuel economy from diesel.
The new cleaner diesel fuel "opens up the door of opportunity" to sell more diesel cars and light trucks in the US market, says Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum.
"Diesel has not had a great public image as a technology but that is changing. The new diesel engines have no visible exhaust, no smoke, the noise is equivalent to a gasoline model, and it offers 20 to 40 percent better fuel economy." . Additionally, Schaeffer said, a diesel engine offers more "torque," or acceleration capability, compared with an equivalent gasoline engine. . But automakers still need to do more to tweak their diesel engines to meet US emissions standards. New diesel engines will use filters for particulates -- black soot particles -- but will need further reductions of nitrogen oxides. . David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan, said greater use of diesel is possible but not guaranteed. . "A low-sulfur diesel fuel is absolutely necessary if we are able to meet emissions standards," he said, but added that "nitrogen oxide standards are very difficult even with the cleaner fuel." . Cole said there is "a real horse race" among three different technologies in which automakers are trying to improve fuel efficiency: improvements to the traditional gasoline engine, the hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain and the diesel engine. . Each of these can offer some improvement, Cole said, but it remains unclear now which will end up being the most economical. . "Diesel is in the game and, I think we're going to see some interesting technology," he said. . "Everyone is working on these technologies and they can't pick the winners." . Automakers have to determine how much additional costs will be borne by consumers for the cars in order to save on fuel. For example, diesel engines may add 3,000 dollars to the cost of a car and save 30 percent on fuel. Hybrids can cost 4,000 to 6,000 dollars extra and save 30 percent or more, depending on driving habits. . "I don't see any problem with consumer acceptance, but the issue is really economics. Can they be competitive with existing technology with the cost penalty they have?" Cole said. . Currently, only a handful of diesel-powered passenger cars are sold in the US market by Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler, along with several large pickup trucks from General Motors and Ford. . But on Thursday Chrysler Group said it will offer a diesel engine option for its 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee, making it the first diesel-powered, full-size sport-utility vehicle to be offered in the United States.
Notwithstanding the automobile industry, the new regulations will have a major environmental benefit by cutting emissions, including a number of cancer-causing pollutants, from 13 million big diesel trucks on US roads.
"Diesels are the workhorse of American transportation, and now diesel engines can be much much cleaner," said Bruce Hill, scientist for the Clean Air Task Force. — AFP New US standards for diesel fuel that went into effect June 1 are expected to open the door for auto manufacturers to introduce more diesel-powered cars to the US market, industry analysts say.
New US standards for diesel fuel that went into effect June 1 are expected to open the door for auto manufacturers to introduce more diesel-powered cars to the US market.
The really ironic thing about the USA finally having truely making low sulfer diesel starting in 1st June 2006 is Europe has had that standard for over 20 years. Way to go USA, and show the world just how to take the lead. :confuse:
'This dual goal ( fuel economy and zero emissions ) it too expensive for us. Why can't we just have one goal?'
I counter that let's allow the market to evolve and decide. If Honda or MB for example can bring out a diesel that saves fuel and keeps emissions low then lets go for those options. The Chrysler Division will eventually have to fall into line.
I think that Jeep would have liked to have kept that lower cost Italian diesel as it was a money maker and made for a low cost Liberty. The other side of Jeep is tickled they are offering the Grand Cherokee with a MB diesel. That will be more to my liking. The Liberty never appealed to me visually.
It's a facinating time for the vehicle industry as a whole. The changes in drivetrain technology seems to be coming at us at an ever-increasing speed; EV's, hybrids, clean-diesels, PHEV's, diesel-hybrids? Improvements in safety, reliability, economy and performance are making vehicles very attractive to use and own. The Gee-whiz factors and comfort of many new vehicles are at an alltime high IMO.
Automakers have to determine how much additional costs will be borne by consumers for the cars in order to save on fuel. For example, diesel engines may add 3,000 dollars to the cost of a car and save 30 percent on fuel. Hybrids can cost 4,000 to 6,000 dollars extra and save 30 percent or more, depending on driving habits.
Both cost factors seem overstated from what I've read here and my own experience. It seems now, unless there are new costs to be added that the extras should be about $1500-2000 for each.
Both cost factors seem overstated from what I've read here and my own experience
It must not be too much as the cars are selling well whether it is a hybrid or diesel. I think those prices got thrown around when cars like the RX400h came out. That is a big premium. Not sure on the GS450h. The premium on the VW TDIs currently available are too much for me. Then I am very tight with money. MSRP is not in my vocabulary. I am sure you love those four letters. It is all perspective. I have to say from what I am reading on Edmund's the TCH is a big success. I believe I said somewhere a few months before it arrived. If it gets near 40 MPG it will be a hit. From those posting it is delivering the mileage.
They stopped production of the diesel on 1 May. Apparently it was too expensive to put a clean burning diesel in the Liberty. Also, they only sold 11,000 of the diesel version (which was better than they expected).
How is it possible that a diesel Jetta could obtain higher than EPA mpg and a Prius obtained lower mpg than EPA and lower than the TDI in the same test? :confuse:
This should not be possible! The results are a direct contradiction to the teachings of John1701.
How is it possible that a diesel Jetta could obtain higher than EPA mpg and a Prius obtained lower mpg than EPA and lower than the TDI in the same test?
This should not be possible! The results are a direct contradiction to the teachings of John1701.
I predict with certainty that John will discredit this test!!
Comments
I KNOW what your contention is. The problem with YOUR contention is that it is a straw man argument. I know hybrid owners. None of them bought their hybrid to save money. So you set up a false argument, and then you knock it down.
Most Prius owners simply do not want to drive anEcho. Why is that so hard for you to swallow?
Let me let you in on a secret: When a hybrid buyer buys a hybrid, they are not spending YOUR money. They are spending their money. I think they can decide for themselves if it is a smart purchase financially. Frankly, I don't CARE if it is smart or not. It is their choice to make a silly financial choice, same as the guy who buys the CTS-V or the new Malibu, etc. etc.
I'm all for wide latitude in what we can discuss, here. Remember, I'm the guy who thinks the cost of the US Navy should be figured into the cost of each gallon of gasoline.
My debate with you started wrt your comment about "environmentalists" which you've refused to retract. This just happens to be an on-topic tangent.
I am so glad you brought that up. I can not tell you how many hybrid folks have gotten down right hateful about those of us that like SUVs & PU trucks to drive. If it was just a matter of money we could also buy an Echo. It goes beyond money. It is comfort, convenience, utility and safety, all of which are higher on my list than fuel economy. None of which any of the current hybrids can fulfill.
My debate with you started wrt your comment about "environmentalists" which you've refused to retract.
I think you lost me on that one. Which debate the one over regulations that make no sense? Or the fact that many environmental groups oppose the current methods of making Ethanol?
So in truth, I would say both Gagrice and I would agree with your lil secret!! However that might still not mitigate some of the "anti ism" that the hybrid advocates hold near and dear. I also bet that if you took a poll a fair to majority of the hybrid population would support a ban on diesel.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060602/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_energy
and you think we are the only ones who have issues.!!
not ignoring your comments - am just running from one meeting to another
I do understand the SUV arguments, even the one about crumple-zone stealing. I know how SUV folks like to steal their safety from other vehicles.
But all that doesn't translate into your being right about your arguments about hybrids. You create the straw man and knock it down. And many people applaud, even though you've proven nothing of any value. But you DID further convince the dumb guys on the sidelines. Hooray.
but sometimes somebody smart wants to discuss the issues
I know you can keep up (andeven stay ahead) in those discussions.
by the way, I don't agree with Sailor's lame arguments about SUVs - well, not ALL of them, anyway
I do believe that we should all drive what we want, EVEN SUV and HYBRID drivers!!! :-)
Amen! Remove the 5 state bans on diesel products. Finally let diesel products into the country ala for every (FOR EXAMPLE) every or most European models has a gasser version also has a D or diesel version.
Now we are on even ground, as I believe in those freedoms also. I have tried to convince buyers with a long commute to buy a Civic or Prius hybrid. Driving solo on a long commute in an SUV is about as dumb as taking off across the Sahara desert in a Prius. Trying to make one type vehicle fit all people is crazy. Though there are people on this forum that will swear the Prius and HSD is the only thing that is worth a hoot. They go so far as to bad mouth other brands of hybrid cars. They in their minds think Toyota is some god that has the perfect vehicle for all automotive needs. I take exception to that kind of mindset and will use most any argument to convince those that are interested that narrow mindedness is not the answer.
That endorses an emission & efficiency improvement goal without making any reference to a specific vehicle type or even brand.
The diesel supporters set the bar quite a bit lower. Not even delivering a ULEV emission rating is very disappointing. Most non-hybrid gas vehicles already do better than that. As for efficiency, automatic diesels provide MPG similar to "full" hybrids during study cruising on the highway, but in all other situations the diesel does worse and the hybrid does better.
So the attempts here to dismiss data by making personal references rather than keeping the focus on goals is disingenuous, at best. As for the narrow mindedness, improvement to just efficiency alone falls right into that category.
Remember, the "full" hybrid offers a variety of configurations, allowing for the size of the motors, engine, and battery-pack to be adjusted based on the consumers needs while still delivering an emission & efficiency improvement. Also, don't forget that the next generation is suppose to reduce the cost of the system too.
So in the end, your attempt to stereotype holds little merit.
JOHN
I guess I am disappointed in the fact that those interested in saving the planet along with the fossil fuel we have left, are always having to fight with other folks that have an agenda to sell their idea of how to accomplish the common goal. I started out pro hybrid. It is not the technology as much as the folks that worship it that has turned me in other directions. I was trying to save gas and clean up our lousy air in California probably before you were born. I moved to Alaska to get out of the bad smog in 1970.
What needs to happen is a practical set of rules to maintain our air quality and lessen our use of fossil fuel. The hybrid is good at keeping the air clean. It still uses fossil fuel. PZEV may not be bad in itself. If all other options are thrown to the wind to achieve that goal I have to think it is bad.
The state you live in the PU truck is a common mode of transportation in the farm community. If the EPA would allow a smaller PU truck with a smaller diesel engine it would cut emissions and fossil fuel usage. It would be quite simple to start using a biodiesel blend, which is even better. To think that people are going to pay extra to drive a FFV using E85 when it gets lousy mileage is absurd. Plus a FFV is not up to what is needed if you haul much of a load.
If there can be no compromise in your mind. If it is PZEV or nothing the battle will continue. You will make your claims and I will make mine. Let the people decide who is right and who is wrong.
Remember, the "full" hybrid offers a variety of configurations
Do you accept the Honda Civic Hybrid as a "full" hybrid? If not I wonder why? It is just as economical as the Prius and costs less to buy one. More of a hybrid for the masses than the Prius.
Civic-Hybrid always has been an "assist" hybrid. You wondering why it is not thought of as a "full" reveals a rather huge misunderstanding of hybrid technology.
The most interesting part though is how Camry-Hybrid continues to be ignored. Having the hybrid feature as an option on the most popular selling car in America would naturally scare any diesel supporter. You certainly can't mock the car. And focusing on just the hybrid feature alone prevents the usual antagonist tricks from being used. Bummer, eh?
JOHN
I certainly do not think anyone is mocking the car at all.
I think it is the other way around. The diesel option scares the pants off the control a crates and hybrid advocates. Take the bans off diesel so that Camry can be offered in a diesel. Surely undoing the bans will not hurt the hybrids competitve edge now can it?
Maybe you have some credible evidence that a small modern diesel engine using ULSD is more polluting than a full size V8 gas engine. You only focus on one element of the pollution. Why don't you address honestly PM, HC, SoX & CO?
I leave out Nox and I'm the one spreading misinformation. You leave out a whole gamut of pollution and it is acceptable. We have more than one issue to deal with. Fossil fuel usage needs to be curtailed. Diesel is still the most efficient way to use our resources in a vehicle. That should have been the thrust instead of trying to make the less efficient gasoline clean. Don't blame that on people that want a more efficient, longer lived engine. It is the government and their bowing to big oil interests. Now they are feeding at the big Agri business trough.
The most interesting part though is how Camry-Hybrid continues to be ignored.
As far as the TCH, I keep track of that thread as well. Have not seen you in there. I happen to like the Camry. Well I did like the older Camry. The new one is a disappointment. Not just the hybrid. The only complaint I would have with the TCH is the smaller trunk. I would not buy one cuz I think they are ugly now that I have seen them in person. Toyota took the best selling midsized sedan, made it bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. Both for passengers and luggage. Then they cut the mileage on the best selling 4 cylinder. I guess it does not pay to try to improve on something as good as the Camry. I have not seen the May figures. Camry sales were off through April compared to last year. I must not be the only one that does not like the new look with less room.
see, this is where you and I have a problem
for somne reason, you have "bad connotations" re hybrids. I guess I could tell you to "get out more" or "maybe you should hang out with more enlightened people," but that will do no good.
Dude, there ain't no bad connotations, except the ones YOU dream up in this message board
Get out of the house, smell the coffee - there are NORMAL people who drive hybrids. They are not nutjobs. No one is flipping them the bird.
I think you need to get a life outside of hanging out in places like this. [not meant with any malice, I assure you]
do you really have to ask that question? I mean, this very website can give you that EXACT information, in about.....5 clicks? maybe less
We must disagree and it's over one word. Hybrids - and diesels - do decrease our dependence on foreign oil however they do not eliminate our use of foreign oil.
The best solution to achieve this elimination is to prohibit the importation of any fuel for any reason thereby forcing the population to become self-sufficient energy wise. This may be doable with the technology soon at our fingertips. Politically it would create a firestorm.
In the face of this reality any method that causes us to use less fuel for whatever use keeps more money here and sends less to our less-than-friends in the Mideast.
Toyota took the best selling midsized sedan, made it bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. Both for passengers and luggage.
In truth it is exactly the same as the previous Gen in overall dimensions but it's a conundrum. To some it appears larger on the outside and to many it almost appears Corolla sized "Why'd they shrink the Camry" at first glance. It's almost a 'trick of the eye'.
Inside there is actually more leg/hip room but they lowered the seating an inch and made the roof sleeker ( lower ) and raised the waistline so from the inside it appears tighter. It isn't. At just under 6' I can't reach the pedals with the seat all the way back. This never happened before. And there is still room in the backseat. The trunk is smaller because there is actually more room in the cabin.
Then they cut the mileage on the best selling 4 cylinder. I guess it does not pay to try to improve on something as good as the Camry. I have not seen the May figures. Camry sales were off through April compared to last year. I must not be the only one that does not like the new look with less room.
Added weight and more competitive HP ratings caused the 4c to move from 34 Hwy to 33 Hwy ( EPA ). But this is the Gen of the 'V6's'. The amazing 268 hp 31 mph Hwy ICE and the 187 hp 38 mpg Hwy TCH are the news. All the emphasis is on these two.
April was the first full month of sales on this Gen6. It was even with Apr '05;
May was 7.75% higher than April and 7.75% over May '05.
This Gen 6 will be a the new standard for midsized autos for sometime.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060602/ts_usatoday/oilshaleenthusiasmresurfac- - esinthewest
Unless we consider Colorado a FOREIGN country.
Pack up the cargo planes and bring the boys and girls home from the middle east !!!
I can assure you the hybrids are raising issues far beyond what I would be inclined to say. I had nothing to do with the LA Times article. A very pro hybrid newspaper. Here are a few "bad connotations" of which I did not originate any of them:
Poor economics
much lower than advertised Mileage
unknown battery and component life
discourteous driver attributes
Too much celebrity & elitism surround the Prius
overly complex (1/3 more components)
Arrogance on the part of some owners
blocking HOV lanes
Looks like an alien space ship
Tell me you have not heard at least some of those complaints from outside the Edmund's Forum. As I said before none of that would stop me from buying a hybrid if I had need for one. Heck I own a Sierra Hybrid. And I like it.
I think its very relevent. When I bought my 2001 ECHO I looked at a Prius also. Although the sticker on the Prius was $21,000,(as did the info in Edmunds) the dealer was charging $28,000(plus tax) Hmm that ammounts to $15,000 to save $2000 of gas over the life of the car. I have read in articles about the HC that the price is $30,000 to $40,000. I have learned you cant trust Toyota or Edmunds for that matter to give the TRUE price of a car when it comes to hybrids.
As others have pointed out (on different sides of the discussion I might add) many many many reasons can be cited for and against buying a hybrid. Just some examples:
To a movie star who makes say 7-30 m per picture, it is probably one of the "cheapest" status symbols! It is far better than that even, if Toyota gives it to them to drive, just to be seen around town in it!! But even if they buy it themselves, the price is VERY VERY south of say much higher end MB, JAG, Bentley, BMW, etc that they would probably have gotten.
Of late, there are even political campaign print pieces to declare a metaphoric "green ness. " Here is one that came in the mail; using a dark blue or black Toyota Prius. "Ellen Corbett, Democrat for State Senate,(www.corbettforsenate.com) polluting the USPS system. This might be an obvious visual pun in cap or foil to AhNold's multiple Hummer ownership.
..."I drive a (Toyota, my sic) Prius, and have been for over 2 years. I got my Prius soon after they were widely available for the first time and was one of the first members of the state legislature to get a hybrid."...
Gee I wonder if she can write off the Prius as Campaign expenses?
More to reality for normal people, 25,000 vs 12,600 will buy a lot of commute gas, don't you think?
In my own case ($12,400/$3.15=3937. gal x 38
Somebody was pulling your leg back then. It was sooo unknown then that the last 2003's were discounted to invoice.
I have read in articles about the HC that the price is $30,000 to $40,000
You will have to provide the sources for these articles because as all the buyers know the MSRP's are either $26700 or $28000 or $30500 depending on what equipment you want... nothing more. Again I think someone is pulling your leg.
Maybe they heard something from someone who was told something by a friend who knows somebody 'in-the-know' that hybrids must be more expensive than normal cars ( heck they are so complex
When I test drove the first two Prius at El Cajon Toyota they were $20k. Salesman said they cost Toyota $35k to build and it was a promotion to get them on the road. What was a big selling point to me was the 8yr 100k mile B-B warranty. My ex-wife did not like the car. I was going to buy it for her just before the divorce. I thought it was a good deal. She ended up with her 1990 Camry, though she wanted my Suburban. I tried.
I have found the Cherry Hill dealer to be incompetant on many levels. I recently needed an outside mirror for my ECHO. TWICE they ordered the wrong one. Then they said Toyota doesnt make it. When I recently put a muffler on my daughters 92 Camry they first said the muffler was $130. Then they called back and said it was $240. Then they called back and said Toyota doesnt have any 92 Camry mufflers in the entire country. I got the muffler from Runnemead Toyota for $212 installed the next day.
I read an article about the CH in the NY Times Online about a month ago. They claimed that was the price they saw on a Camry on a dealers showroom floor. Sorry but I dont have the article! I suggest going to Cherry Hill Toyota and looking at CHs there!
N I C E ! available in August.
that seems to compare quite favorably to liberty CRD although we won't be seeing many more of those and will get grand cherokee bluetec diesel 3.0 instead (better).
camry hybrid looks nifty too, even if one might have to wait 6 months to get one without NAV, without dead-animal seats, without a 42-CD changer.
it takes a lot to embarass me but driving/riding in a prius was definitely embarassing even while my engineer brain cell enjoyed all the high-techness designed into prius.
i always get a kick out of seeing the 'stereotype' of driver who is driving a prius or TDI.
on the cool side for prius, at least the prius is marginally cooler than the honda insight or wheeling along in those sneakers with wheels built-in and flashing LEDs in the soles.
(According to VW sales figures the subset of TDI 's is 4% of the VW population)
In my case, it might be members of our regional area TDI Club in which case is app less than 50 members
I can not recall ever in 74,000 miles and three years getting a (sign) thumbs up in recognition of driving a TDI.
Might be a way different story on the outline of the Prius however. I hope for civility's sake they are not getting more than their share of ITALIAN salutations.
This had not occurred to me till just now, but in the TDI, no matter whether others are faster or slower or along side of it, the TDI is almost upwards of 99% of the time getting better fuel mileage than those other vehicles!!!! .
much socializing is done at diesel pumps with other diesel geeks as well as curious truckers - this in contrast to the antisocial gasoline pump tradition of awkwardly not looking at the other people as if it's an elevator ride.
i do truly enjoy that Prius is the AMC Pacer of styling today - the Pacer was awesome in all ways except it lacked a diesel engine option.
Diesel vehicles represent more than 60 percent of Chrysler sales in Western Europe, but a new generation of diesel engines has yet to catch on in the United States despite improved fuel economy compared with traditional gasoline engines.
With consumer surveys suggesting more car buyers are considering gas alternatives, Chrysler is betting heavily on diesel-based powertrains, which many analysts see as an attractive option to replace the big engines in trucks and SUVs.
Kind of difficult for them to catch on if they are not offered.
Reuters Jeep Diesel
ECHO drivers gets lots of mutual support. Beautiful women wave at me all the time!
Tell me about the girls with the Echo. Are they as good looking as the ones you get with a Ferrari?
If the government can refrain from reacting to environmental alarmists, who want zero emissions vehicles (but demand they be cheap, too), diesel-powered cars and trucks can significantly improve fuel economy in the United States. If one-third of all vehicles were diesels in 2020, we could save as much oil as is currently imported from Saudi Arabia, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.
Common sense needed
The new environmental rules require a 97 percent reduction in the sulfur content of highway diesel fuel, from its current level of 500 parts per million (ppm), to 15 ppm. Refiners were required to start producing this cleaner fuel as of Thursday, and it should be available nationwide by October 15.
In addition to the obvious benefit of reducing emissions from the 13 million heavy trucks using diesel fuel, the new cleaner fuel could make it easier for automakers to introduce more passenger diesel cars that meet strict US emissions standards.
Only about 3.6 percent of new passenger vehicles registered in the US were powered by diesel, according to the Diesel Technology Forum, an industry group.
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That is a sharp contrast to Europe, where about half the cars use diesel fuel.
But the US market is expected to rise, in part because of the better fuel economy from diesel.
The new cleaner diesel fuel "opens up the door of opportunity" to sell more diesel cars and light trucks in the US market, says Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum.
"Diesel has not had a great public image as a technology but that is changing. The new diesel engines have no visible exhaust, no smoke, the noise is equivalent to a gasoline model, and it offers 20 to 40 percent better fuel economy."
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Additionally, Schaeffer said, a diesel engine offers more "torque," or acceleration capability, compared with an equivalent gasoline engine.
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But automakers still need to do more to tweak their diesel engines to meet US emissions standards. New diesel engines will use filters for particulates -- black soot particles -- but will need further reductions of nitrogen oxides.
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David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan, said greater use of diesel is possible but not guaranteed.
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"A low-sulfur diesel fuel is absolutely necessary if we are able to meet emissions standards," he said, but added that "nitrogen oxide standards are very difficult even with the cleaner fuel."
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Cole said there is "a real horse race" among three different technologies in which automakers are trying to improve fuel efficiency: improvements to the traditional gasoline engine, the hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain and the diesel engine.
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Each of these can offer some improvement, Cole said, but it remains unclear now which will end up being the most economical.
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"Diesel is in the game and, I think we're going to see some interesting technology," he said.
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"Everyone is working on these technologies and they can't pick the winners."
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Automakers have to determine how much additional costs will be borne by consumers for the cars in order to save on fuel. For example, diesel engines may add 3,000 dollars to the cost of a car and save 30 percent on fuel. Hybrids can cost 4,000 to 6,000 dollars extra and save 30 percent or more, depending on driving habits.
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"I don't see any problem with consumer acceptance, but the issue is really economics. Can they be competitive with existing technology with the cost penalty they have?" Cole said.
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Currently, only a handful of diesel-powered passenger cars are sold in the US market by Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler, along with several large pickup trucks from General Motors and Ford.
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But on Thursday Chrysler Group said it will offer a diesel engine option for its 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee, making it the first diesel-powered, full-size sport-utility vehicle to be offered in the United States.
Notwithstanding the automobile industry, the new regulations will have a major environmental benefit by cutting emissions, including a number of cancer-causing pollutants, from 13 million big diesel trucks on US roads.
"Diesels are the workhorse of American transportation, and now diesel engines can be much much cleaner," said Bruce Hill, scientist for the Clean Air Task Force. — AFP New US standards for diesel fuel that went into effect June 1 are expected to open the door for auto manufacturers to introduce more diesel-powered cars to the US market, industry analysts say.
http://www.todayonline.com/articles/122342.asp
The really ironic thing about the USA finally having truely making low sulfer diesel starting in 1st June 2006 is Europe has had that standard for over 20 years.
Way to go USA, and show the world just how to take the lead. :confuse:
'This dual goal ( fuel economy and zero emissions ) it too expensive for us. Why can't we just have one goal?'
I counter that let's allow the market to evolve and decide. If Honda or MB for example can bring out a diesel that saves fuel and keeps emissions low then lets go for those options. The Chrysler Division will eventually have to fall into line.
It's a facinating time for the vehicle industry as a whole.
The changes in drivetrain technology seems to be coming at us at an ever-increasing speed; EV's, hybrids, clean-diesels, PHEV's, diesel-hybrids?
Improvements in safety, reliability, economy and performance are making vehicles very attractive to use and own.
The Gee-whiz factors and comfort of many new vehicles are at an alltime high IMO.
Automakers have to determine how much additional costs will be borne by consumers for the cars in order to save on fuel. For example, diesel engines may add 3,000 dollars to the cost of a car and save 30 percent on fuel. Hybrids can cost 4,000 to 6,000 dollars extra and save 30 percent or more, depending on driving habits.
Both cost factors seem overstated from what I've read here and my own experience. It seems now, unless there are new costs to be added that the extras should be about $1500-2000 for each.
It must not be too much as the cars are selling well whether it is a hybrid or diesel. I think those prices got thrown around when cars like the RX400h came out. That is a big premium. Not sure on the GS450h. The premium on the VW TDIs currently available are too much for me. Then I am very tight with money. MSRP is not in my vocabulary. I am sure you love those four letters. It is all perspective. I have to say from what I am reading on Edmund's the TCH is a big success. I believe I said somewhere a few months before it arrived. If it gets near 40 MPG it will be a hit. From those posting it is delivering the mileage.
http://tinyurl.com/rqlgk
Only government agencies and regulations will protect air quality.
That is, until we let people pollute as much as they want, provided they buy pollution offsets. That market mechanism could work.
42 mpg Prius Hybrid :surprise:
You don't need a Hybrid for great fuel economy
How is it possible that a diesel Jetta could obtain higher than EPA mpg and a Prius obtained lower mpg than EPA and lower than the TDI in the same test? :confuse:
This should not be possible! The results are a direct contradiction to the teachings of John1701.
This should not be possible! The results are a direct contradiction to the teachings of John1701.
I predict with certainty that John will discredit this test!!