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Comments
Your contention is that an increase of plug ins will create an increase in pollutants from the power plants; i.e. more demand more output. It does not have to be so.
My contention is that even with time shifting as you suggest, you still need to burn fuel to make electricity. Co generation to use waste heat is a good idea but is expensive to initiate. In an ideal world, this would be done, but we do not have an ideal world. In reality, power generating companies would rather take care of their stockholders and CEO's.
IE - I don't wanna pollute, but I don't give a rat's-ss if I make someone else pollute for me.
Most elegantly expressed.
Maybe a full lineup of diesels will inject life into the entire product line.
DCX has 3 of the top ten selling SUVs on the market this year. Toyota only one. All three of the DCX models are on their way out and still outsell the Toyota offerings. I think the Grand Cherokee with the BluTec will be as big of a hit as anything DCX has going. The Grand Cherokee outsells all but the Caravan and Ram PU. Jeep builds better 4X4s than Toyota. Sales prove that. I am not a big fan of Chrysler and am not too thrilled with the looks of any of the Mercedes SUVs. One of them with a diesel would be mighty tempting. I would have bought a Liberty CRD. I wanted a Mercedes engine and transmission combo. And the Liberty is just too small for me.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060624/AUTO01/606240367/- 1148/AUTO01
Rocky
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My reference was to the wannabe 4X4s. The RAV4, Highlander and RX300/400 series. They are street vehicles through and through.
However a turbo diesel Toyota Landcruiser with 6 speed manual would SEVERELY tempt me!! On the world wide market, this is about as common as the Chevrolet Suburban/Tahoe type of vehicle in the USA. Both options would indeed make it a rare bird in the USA market
If they were to sell them here, you would more than likely end up with an automatic transmission model and the manual would be unavailable or at best, difficult to obtain.
At this point, I have become quite cynical about Toyota and their build quality. Recently they announced a recall of over one million vehicles for a significant steering defect. Recently, I was reading about the 2007 Camry and several of those model are having significant problems with the automatic transmission.
Another reason I am cynical about Toyota is that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth, especially when they discuss how "green" they are. Their hybrids are a lie and are not PZEV. Their trucks and SUVs are some of the biggest polluters in this country.
On a practical level, I am pretty happy with the Honda Civic, I selected back in 2004 over the 2004/2005 Toyota Corolla and/or Toyota Prius. Currently it gets between 39/42 in a plain jane daily commute.
My 1994 TLC was directed (2 years ago) to a CA "smog only" station. (This is akin to an inspection station to cull out old horses for the French horse meat market
Not surprising at all. A friend works in a smog check station. He said it is so easy to skew the figures as they come out going to the state directly. The whole smog check is a scam and nearly worthless on any car maintained properly. Especially any car less than 20 years old.
So would you still want to buy a hybrid? I looked at the Toyota Highlander hybrid on the EPA website and especially paid attention to what the real world is getting for fuel economy. The best FE I could find for the Highlander Hybrid was 30 mpg, and this was for the 2WD version. I generally get 31.5 to 32 mpg on the road with my CRD and it is a 4WD drive vehicle. The Highlander Hybrid also costs more than my CRD by several thousand dollars.
The Highlander is a Lexus knockoff. It accomplishes its purposes for the buyer to which it's directed. But you knew that already.
I did not know it was a Lexus knock off, but that is your interpretation.
My view is that Toyota is trying to mislead the public. It is a very expensive way to save a few dollars at the pump.
Wow I'm shocked that you were unaware of this.
A little investigation might have proven useful. The Highlander and the Lexus 400h are the same vehicle from the same line with different styling cues and niceties. That's it. They both have the same frame and drivetrain.
The Rx was out 3 years before the Highlander and became Lexus' No 1 vehicle. It is the heart of the Lexus line. As such it receives all the emphasis and publicity and it is always launched prior to the Highlander ( Rx350 is due in Sept but there is no word yet on the new Highlander 350 ).
The Rx 300 was 3 yrs before the Highlander 300
They both got the 3.3L ( Rx330 ) in the same year.
The 400h was intro'd in mid-2004 and delivered in early April 2005. There was little or no announcement on the HH, it's delivery was 60 days after the 400h.
The Rx350 has already debuted and is scheduled for Sept. There is no word yet on the Highlander 350 ( likely Dec/Jan or even next year ).
As to misleading the public that is only your personal perception. The only statement Toyota ever made on either the 400h or HH was that it would have the power of a V8 and the fuel economy of a midsized auto. It was always directed to the Lexus buyer where performance is of more importance than fuel economy.
It does what it was designed to do. Why should an SUV buyer who wants 270 horses have to put up with 16-18 mpg fuel economy. Why can't that buyer also get 25-28 mpg?
Don't forget to add it was the beginning of the end of a high class name in vehicles. The lexus cars that have followed are not in the tradition of the early LS400 and SC400. They have gone down hill since the late 1990s.
The latest LS430 is ok, not worth the price. Fortunetly our 1990 LS400 still runs and looks like new. I wonder if any of the Lexus built in the last 5 years will be around when they hit 17 years old.
That is one pov, although one not widely held.
Granted, I was only in Paris and the Avignon area, but there is a constant smell of diesel - a smell that you just don't have in the U.S.
granted, there are lots of older diesels on the road, and the summer weather conditions did not help, as it was hot with very little breeze, so the French pollution was staying put, rather than blowing over to Poland, et al.
Still, I am holding off on replacing the car I am driving until I see what the future holds in store for diesels. A nice sporty wagon with near luxury touches would be a sweet ride. It was fun to see all the Renaults and Peugeots in Paris, which we just don't see in the U.S. Also fun to see the small DC stuff. Can't say I want one, since I do so much highway driving, but I can see the value if you live in a place like Avignon (less need for freeway travel) or IN Paris.
Saw a LOT of Renault sporty hatchbacks on the road. Saw almost no Japanese of US cars. Actually, very few German cars. Almost no Volvos. Seems like everyone drives Renault, Peugeot, Citroen.
Only by the luxury car buying public. Name me a Lexus model that sold more in the first 5 months of this year than they did in the same time frame last year. They are falling into the same trap that brought Mercedes from the pinnacle to just another car company. When their best selling vehicle is a wannabe SUV something is amiss. The RX is not that attractive.
The flagship LS430 is off by a whopping 50% so far this year. Just by comparison the Mercedes S Class is up 52% in the same time frame. Guess who got the luxury car buyer back? When MB gets ramped up with their BluTec vehicles they may gain back even more disillusioned strays.
What is the auto industry coming to? There is honestly not a new vehicle on the road in this country that turns me on. Well maybe a 911 Carrera, but my wife says I don't need it.
and shy is something amiss if your best selling vehicle is a pseudo-SUV? Again, what matters is sheer numbers (and profits on those numbers). And that you find the RX unattractive is also not relevant to the discussion, if the discussion is about how Toyota is doing. Again, numbers numbers numbers. (though I do happen to agree that DC offerings are better looking than Toyota)(Still, I don't think the RX is any uglier than most SUVs/wannabeSUVs - they are all uglier than most sedans or coupes.
I'm not arguing pro-Toyota or anti-DC - am just arguing with the logic in your post.
Whether you drive gas or diesel, air quality will be relative. There is much as you point out that simply cannot be controlled, namely the weather conditions.
As to seeing primarily Renault, Peugeot and Citroen, well, your in France and the French are very fond of their own stuff and turn a calloused eye toward anything that does not say "made in France".
Frankly, if my CRD had domestic diesel, I would have more than likely not purchased it. If I was looking for a 3/4 ton truck, then I would have purchased the Dodge because the Cummins engine has been around for many years and is bullet proof.
DC advertises the CRD as having the pulling power of a V-8 gasser with the fuel economy of a four cylinder. That has a more purposeful meaning to it.
The HH suffered a lot of bad press for being unnecessarily directed to a performance buyer rather than to a fuel efficient one. Mismarketed? It might have been but it still sells regularly just like any other Highlander, with discounts.
Now put the new TCH powertrain in the next Highlander, whenever it comes out, with real world fuel economy ratings of 32-35 mpg and keep the MSRP at or under $30K as the 'base' model then it will jump in sales IMO. It could be sold for $27K with discounts down the line.
A car comparable to the GS450H is going to get 12/13 mpg when the GS450H is getting 21. That IS fuel economy.
No one buying a GS450 wants 6 cylinder performance for 4 cylinder mpg. That's what the Camry is for.
But there may have been mismarketing for the Highlander H. I can't say, as I have not shopped for one.
How is the fact that the "S" Class MB is outselling the Lexus LS430 by almost 3 to 1 look? There is no doubt that the RX class is selling well even this year. So is the Chevy Impala & Cobalt. Does that make them good cars?
As far as what is and isn't ugly, I have to agree. None of the current SUVs and wannabe SUVs turn me on. I wanted to like the new GL MB and was left cold. Too much plastic. Not enough substance. I hope the first diesel SUVs include something I will sorta like.
I think the first part fits the GS450h. No one buying. That is about a dead thread. I don't even think they unloaded that special version they started pushing at Christmas. Face it you can buy a much nicer LS430 for about the same money. And it gets an honest 18/25 MPG. You get more passenger space and twice the trunk space. It is fast enough to get a ticket in any city in the USA.
Diesel is overall cheaper nationwide, except for the Rocky Mountain region of the country.
The price difference is now seventeen cents less per gallon for diesel than for regular unleaded at my favorite fuel stop.
Nationally diesel fuel is about six cents less per gallon then gasoline. In CA it is more than ten cents. Locally it is about fourteen cents, in favor of diesel.
At least for now, buying a hybrid makes no sense to me.
It's the same price as the Prius. It's the about the same price as the ICE Camry versions - or even lower in the top trim. It gets about 25-30% better FE than the V6 ICE and about 15-20% better FE than the 4c ICE.
You might see new vehicles being debuted in the next couple of years where the hybrid version is the base model. The ICE is the more expensive version.
In 2008 and beyond all these will have to be revisited due to more diesel options and new hybrid technologies - or both combined.
The new Fit hybrid probably meets your requirement for an economy-sized hybrid. It's not my choice due to it's size but it will be successful I believe.
Apparently, it can be tweaked to generate a lot of torque and horse power while still getting high mpgs. Time will show.
In the meantime, I do note that GM, BMW and Daimler all are working on various diesel options for their large and small vehicles.
but
1. it might be I did not make my point clear
2. perhaps my point is being ignored.
3. actual figures are being ignored
or given items 2/3
4. wish full thinking?
(Per Edmunds.com) Invoice on a 2007 Camry Hybrid is $26.2 k vs $21.7 k for a 4 cylinder XLE. vs $18.5 k SE. The difference is $26.2-$21.7 k = $4,500.00. and $26.2- $18.5= $7,700.
When I priced the 2004 Civic vs the 2004 Civic Hybrid, it was (12,564) 13,000 vs 20,000 or 7,000 dollars.
$7,700 (Camry hybrid over a Camry SE ) is STILL a LOT of premium.
..."You might see new vehicles being debuted in the next couple of years where the hybrid version is the base model. The ICE is the more expensive version."...
But then again might: NOT!?
I'm 40+ years old, and I'm not going to drive some low-end beater that gets 40 MPG. Some people may want or like to do that, but not me. I've "been there, done that" as the saying goes.
But don't disparage hybrids by saying false things about them like they cost $7,000 or $7,700 more than a "COMPARABLE" non-hybrid version, because that is completely untrue.
If you want the lowest cost car, then by all means get the lowest cost car. But don't compare a well-equipped hybrid to the lowest denominator and expect your comparison to be valid.
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For my Jeep Liberty CRD the premium is $846 once you strip away the price of the other items in the diesel package.
In Europe, diesel models usually sell for less than there gasser counterparts.
In fact looking at the 2006 TDI vs the 2006 (similar) gasser indeed the gasser has the premium. 20.9k vs 22.3k respectively. EPA's being 36/41 vs 24/32. SO the TDI with a cheaper (-1,400) entry fee, AND better EPA fuel mileage 12 to 9 mpg in fact meets some of my criterion for a better deal vs a worse deal.
So over the course of say 250,000 miles, one would save 3,473 to 1,715 gals in fuel @ todays' prices of 2.99 the range is $10,384 to $5,128.
In any case, here's Edmunds comment about the pricing of the Camry hybrid:
the Camry Hybrid stickers for about $1,500 more than a four-cylinder Camry XLE
That's a fair comparison, given that the hybrid model includes a fair amount of standard equipment that is either optional or not available in the lower level Camrys.
In the real world, the pricing disparity between the hybrid and regular car might be greater because haggling on the hybrids is going to be near impossible, while the gas-powered cars should be subject to discounting. But again, the price disparity is not several thousand dollars.
Overall, as I try to point out elsewhere on these threads, let's not assume that pricing premiums are forever fixed. Hybrids are relatively new technology that are deliberately priced at a premium because there is no reason at this point to discount them -- not only would TMC like to recover whatever development costs that it can, but the pricing level helps to add to the cachet value.
But as production expands and the cars become more mainstream, it is fair to expect the price premium to diminish or to disappear entirely. The tendency is for technologies to decrease in price as they mature, not the opposite, so there is no reason to expect hybrid technology to be any different. Likewise, we would also expect new technologies to improve over time, so hybrids should improve at a faster pace than would a mature technology such as diesel.
Then again, I can't see why the two technologies couldn't be combined. I'm not an engineer, but I don't see what would preclude diesel motors from being supplemented with hybrid systems.
2006 Jetta GLI invoice 22,514
2006 Jetta 2.0 invoice 22,322
Copied right off the web site.
With my 2003 the 46 dollar premium took little to know time to BE
Given the prices copied above the gasser will indeed be more expensive over the life of each car. I used 250,000 miles in a prior post.
The website also presents the following:
Jetta Value Edition
Jetta TDI
BTW I know the comparo is fallacious comparing MT to AT but it's little different than yours regarding the Camry.
So given the I-5 cylinder over 250,000 miles (deal breaker for me given the) EPA of 22/30 vs 36/41, you get 11,364/8,333 gal vs 6,944/6,098 gal. Savings are 4,420 gal to 2,235 gals. At $2.99 per gal, that is a savings of $13,216 to $6,683. Minus- the $3,277,
that is savings of $9,939 to $3,406 in fuel.
Off topic, the DSG is the "automatic" option!!??
Logic has little sway here as long as hybrids are disparaged. Actually I am in favor of a diesel ( diesel/hybrid ? ) that burns biofuel in order to keep money out of the mideast. However intolerance in all its forms ( narrow-mindedness ) pushes my buttons
Again if someone wants or (needs) 50% more the hp of the TDI, (150 vs 100 hp) just be aware how much more one will pay over the (250,000) mile life. If one is fine paying it, I am fine with one paying it.