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Comments
Yes it will be less powerful than the current HH but as both Rary and you have just pointed out efficiency is more critical to the mainstream buyer than pure power.
I can see the new HH and the eventual TSH as the base models each with only 190 hp but great FE. The upper model of each could then be the 3.5L for added power and very good FE - for an ICE V6.
The only restriction might be having 2 different hybrid SUV models. A 2.4L for the Toyota buyer and a 3.5L for the Lexus buyer. Will a Lexus buyer accept an Rx with only 190 hp? Will manufacturing two different hybrid SUV's be too costly?
Probably accurate. The question then is could they double Prius sales without incentives from Toyota? Even though it matters not to Toyota whether the sale is made at MSRP or at invoice at the retail level, I'm certain that if the market for 200,000 Prius units was out there they would be making them. I believe that they have found that 100K Prius units and 100K TCH units accomplishes the same objective.
So in fact if the environmentalists warnings are to be believed, the inclusion of hybrids have had NO statistically significant effects/affects on current global warming trends (decrease would be the logical target) or even (decreased) use of imported oil. In fact, no environmental group has come out with rough figures as to when hybrids (%, numbers, use, substitution, etc etc) ,will have any statistically significant effect/affect (in the LA area) which as most folks know is the most populated automobile market probably in the USA if not the planet. So if the Prius/hybrid remains a low population "designer" product line (less than half of 1 percent) ; such as the ultra low Corvette and Z06 Corvette line (35,000/7,000 per year) It makes all the sense (profit wise) in the world.
So in effect the "heavy lifting" is still done by models such as the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic. However in fact the so called "small car" market is only app 25% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
So perhaps the real heavy lifting is that it allows Toyota under the current CAFE regulations to sell the ultra profitable larger cars and trucks.
So the practical nexus after I break even against a gasser VW jetta 1.8T (46 dollars more) is is I use 2,711 gals LESS fuel (49 vs 32)to go the same 250,000 miles or save $8,133. at todays prices of 3 per gal. As good as that is the numbers indicate the real pay off will come in the second 250,000 miles.
As you probably know VW lost massive amounts of money bringing this (diesel) off the shelf techology to market.
I think the sales figures for June bear out your thoughts. The Civic dropped from 3rd place in May to 6th place in June. The Accord picked up real steam in June. Camry also gained momentum with their new model. Impala now in 4th spot so big is back in, even with the high gas prices.
I've done nothing to flame you, only showing you the facts regarding my hybrid savings. for example:
"Let's see YOU say I am incorrect when YOU say YOU get 73 mpg? Then you go on to say you get 66 mpg"
My records are:
Best distance was 71.3MPG and 983 miles.
Best efficiency 73.6MPG and 935 miles.
Those are not figures I get every tank. I'm also counting my winter driving in my yearly figure, which was low-mid 60's MPG.
I simply choose an average of 66 so far for the year.
Why would you post this?
"So despite assertions that folks like me (if not me) are "hybrid haters" NOTHING could be further from the truth"
Again I've never even hinted that about you.
The topic is Hybrids & Diesels: Deals or Duds?
I've shown you my savings, and proved with calculations.
For someone as courtious as I've been don't know where your hostility is rooted.
Gagrice:
It's my thoughts that the Highlander might should have been offered as a clean burning diesel, simply for its size/weight. I beleive the hybrid option could be applied later when a real, substantial savings could be had by the rapidly advancing technology.
-Steve
HCH II
Median - 46.9
Mean - 46.8
Mid 50% - 43.7-51.0
indicate that you really know how to "drive the HCH" for best mpg.
Edmunds.com lists the HCH tank as being 12.3 Gal so indeed if you got 983 miles with 71.3 mpg you used 13.79 gals. On the other metric you used 12.7 gal which if Edmunds.com is correct is .4 gal beyond empty. The first is of course 1.49 gal beyond empty. I look forward to your clarifications.
I know that the tank on the Jetta is listed at 14.5 gallons and many posters in the tdiclub claim to have gotten 16.9 gallons into the tank filling to the top of the neck. Not sure how many gallons the filler tube holds but it could easily be a gallon and a half.
I know our friend in Georgia and fellows like xcel have this high mileage down to a science. I don't have the long drive or patience for it. Though it does seem a wise use of fuel if you have to drive long distances on a regular basis.
I also share your frustration with those that are anti diesel on this thread. It seems that saving fuel is saving fuel no matter what you use to achieve the savings. I don't consider myself anti anything. I have recommended both the Prius and Civic hybrid to folks with long commutes. I think the savings is questionable for the hybrids and diesels for folks that only put a few miles a year on a vehicle.
I also find it strange when folks disparage one breed of hybrid over another when they consider the genre the wave of the future. How can it be the wave of the future if only one company is building them?
The "it" you speak of is "full" hybrids, not the designs that deliver less... like "assist".
And since Toyota and Ford already deliver "full" hybrids and GM, DC, and BMW plan to next year, it would appear as though your math skills need some work. That's 5 companies, not 1.
JOHN
"The first is of course 1.49 gal beyond empty. I look forward to your clarifications"
I've pumped as much as 14.8 gallons in up to the rim once but don't like it that empty. Another person over at that green hybrid place reported almost 16 gallons to fill from empty!
-Steve
No trucks are available, and small car options are limited to VW.
I have a John Deere 950 diesel tractor, as tough as a bucket of nails. It has unlimited torque on the low end, and runs forever between fillups.
I rented a Nissan Frontier diesel in Costa Rica a couple of years ago. I never put fuel in the darn thing. I was not tracking it, but it had to be getting better than 30 MPG.
Is anyone else going to come out with a compact diesel small truck or compact car?
I think the marriage of a diesel with hybrid technology could be perfect,, but I cant make one, can only hope someone else will.
Welcome to the Forum. The very same wish brought me to Edmund's 7 years ago. A Ford Ranger diesel came to Alaska from South America. The two young men driving it told me they were averaging 45 MPG. I wanted one and still want one. They are available in every country but the United States. Talk about a backward country. Were it. We talk a good line on saving fuel and cutting GHG. We just do nothing to attain it. We would spend Billions to subsidize Corn Ethanol. And it is about worthless as a fuel. Yet we have a great fuel available and refuse to use it.
I will have wait on the small truck. But I am about to pull the trigger on a Civic Hybrid. My wife has test driven the Civic twice. She seems to really like it.
We live out in the sticks,,, 10 miles to the grocery,,,, 35 miles to work, etc.. so the gas prices are eating us alive.
I really hate to give up my '97 Landcruiser but I am going to have to do it. But...I hate giving my money to OPEC worse!
A recent episode of the British motoring show Fifth Gear did a track race between an Vauxhall/Opel Astra VXR (a "hot hatch" like the VW GTI) and a sportted-up diesel powered Astra. The diesel comfortably beat the VXR, and gets substantially better fuel economy too.
I'd imagine that the key is going to be the cost of the emissions changes required for EPA certification...but we'll see. It seems like there are several manufacturers (VWAG, DCX, and Honda at least) pretty keen on bringing diesels to the US.
Currently that is the issue with diesel cars and small trucks. If the EPA & CARB emission standards were not weighted to give gas engines a green light, diesels would have a better chance. Diesels are better in at least 3 areas especially with the ULSD mandate. Diesels put out less toxic Carbon Monoxide. They are much better than gas engines for Green House Gas (Global Warming) are you listening Al Gore? The fuel if spilled is not carcinegenic as is gasoline. The big plus is we could cut our oil consumption by one quarter to one third without giving up our vehicle size, comfort or performance. Biodiesel is a direct replacement to diesel with NO loss of mileage. Many claim it is better with B100. Many more pros than cons to using diesel in place of gasoline.
...I hate giving my money to OPEC worse!
The most significant thing a person can do to avoid giving money to OPEC is to live close to work and not drive a lot of miles. My wife drives a 16 mpg SUV 6 miles/day. She sends less money to OPEC than the guy with the 70 mile/day commute.
Am not intending to bash fifthfairway, in particular, but people need to focus on all aspects of their lives, not just their car choice.
but I do applaud the long-commute folks for making an effort and buying a fuel-efficient vehicle. Imagine if all those folks drove 16 mpg SUVs. :-(
Hybrid diesels might be 4-8 yrs from now IMO. A lot depends on the acceptance of new diesel technology by the general public. There is a lot of reeducation to do here.
http://www.hybridfest.com
A diesel/elec hybrid MIGHT add $4000 to a price, maybe a little higher depending on the system used......Regardless, they will likely be available within 5 years....
I see the hybrid premium debate has moved more where it belongs. I do agree that if you want all the amenities and try to find a comparably loaded car to a hybrid the premium is less. It still does not address the actual premium you pay to buy a hybrid.
Guy walks into a Toyota dealer and says, give me the cheapest Camry you got. Dealer says that will be about $19k. On second thought add a hybrid drive to that Camry. Well that will be $27k. $27k dollars are you crazy, for just adding a hybrid drive to a $19k car? What do you think that customer considers the Premium on a hybrid. I can tell you. He thinks it is $8,000. You can twist and shout that the hybrid is loaded with $7k worth of doodads and the Premium is only a grand. That is not what it looks like to a guy buying a new car.
Yes there was a lifestyle choice. We built a new house on six acres in a rural area (25 miles out from the suburbs). To purchase six acres in that area would have been $360,000(ouch!).
I gives a different set of issues; well water, septic tanks, no cable TV, and no highspeed internet!!!! I did get high speed from Wild Blue via satellite a couple of weeks ago. It does work pretty darn well
My commute was 9 miles, not too painful with the '97 Landcruiser,,, pretty good with the 4WD Dakota,,, and practically free with my wife's Beetle! But now it is 35 miles. Which led me to this dilemma, and you good people.
I will be selling the Landcruiser and buying the Civic hybrid. I hate to part with it. It is the toughest, best driving, load junk in it, go camping in it, vehicle I have ever owned.
I will wait on the small diesel truck (I hope they make it here soon!) and drive the Beetle.
EXACTLY. The guy THINKS the hybrid premium is $8000. But in reality, it's NOT, because of the OTHER EQUIPMENT.
You are merely being stubborn about this Gary and are not admitting the facts, which you clearly know.
My argument has not been answered to my satisfaction. Why no entry level hybrids for the middle class buyers? This whole thread was dedicated to the premise that hybrids and diesels are not worth the premium. Why would you read a forum that is about hybrid premiums if you don't want to see views other than your own?
From the start a year ago:
benderofbows, "Hybrids & Diesels: Deals or Duds?" #4, 2 Jun 2005 8:56 am
It is impossible to call a hybrid a "deal," as they do not save money. While hybrids may yeild higher fuel economy, they cost more to purchase than a traditional vehicle. These initial costs are only offset by the fuel cost savings on a very long timeline, over a decade and/or hundreds of thousands of miles. Consider the "time value of money;" even if gas prices rise and the break-even point comes sooner, it is preferrable to have a large sum of money now (not paying the hyrbid price premium) than to have small amounts of money (buying less fuel) in the future.
I know what the facts are, you know what the facts are, everybody on this forum knows what the facts are. The guy on the street does not, and is turned off by hybrids because of the price difference. I doubt if the average salesperson could explain the difference as well as you or I could. I took my GMC hybrid in for oil change last week. A salesman came up to me and said he did not know that GMC made a hybrid. Well only 300 were sold in CA only. There are still folks that have no idea what a hybrid car is.
My job as a hybrid advocate is to keep things real and factual. The guy who goes into a dealer and is led to believe the hybrid is $8000 more than the non-hybrid, well, he's probably a lost cause for the next few years.
But at some point in the not-so-distant future, way MORE people will get the facts, understand the technology, and lay down their money.
The Camry being the #1 selling car in America will help the Hybrid cause.
The Vue being the lowest cost SUV Hybrid will help the cause.
It's gonna get better for the world.
I understand that sometimes you see things repeated around here. One option is to simply IGNORE things rather than go off about them. Makes for a much less stressful day! :shades:
The Vue being the lowest cost SUV Hybrid will help the cause.
I agree on both cases. I cannot believe how many new posters are on the TCH threads. It seems to be a real hit for Toyota. And better priced in my opinion than the Prius.
The fact is hybrids are not the only solution and neither are diesels. Each has their place, each has good features, each has less than desirable features. Neither is a dud.
Frankly, anything that reduces consumption of imported oil helps. Any vehicle that can use 100% renewable fuel is helpful too, but there is a caveat here. A 20+% loss in FE is unacceptable. I am talking about E85.
I think if someone want a base, no frills entry level car that's fine and they can pocket the $$ difference.
If they want to buy cutting edge technology which cost the MFG more to produce and is in extremely high market demand then it's not likely they'd get it at bargain-bacement prices.
Hybrid or diesel!
-Steve
In 2004, when I was getting the 2004 Civic the price quoted was 12,564 vs a hard negotiated price of 20,000 for the 2004 HCH. So you are right it was not precisely 7,000, it was 7,436 !!!! This was NO swag. But I didn't say precise now did I!!??? The swag come in for a "so called "brand new diesel" mated to an HCH or Toyota diesel/Prius type hybrid. On second thought, if Toyota came out with a diesel/hybrid it will probably be more than an 8,000 premium. But then as you know, if you compare the 2004 Prius (25,000) HCH (20,000) and Civic (12,564) the difference between the Prius and the Civic is more on the order of 12,436. If I had it to do over again I would have still gotten the Civic. I also would have gotten it over the VW TDI diesel also, which as you are probably tired of hearing, I also own.
Come on, guys, you can do better than this. At this rate, we're going to be seeing arguments here against 4-cylinder engines because the Lotus Exige costs more than do V-6 Hondas!
similarly equipped
HCH vs ICE Civic, $2000 premium
TCH vs ICE Camry, $1000 price benefit to $2000 premium
HH vs ICE Highlander $4000 premium. But what value do owners put on having V8 power and 4c fuel economy.
This is the function of the HCH and the new HFH. These smaller very efficient hybrids are intended for the entry middle class buyer or just the frugal buyer. There may be other vehicles in the future as well but these both should do very very well attracting those with limited budgets.
If the Prius is Toyota's entry into hybrids, and they have on their website that the Prius is targeted at the $85k per year demographic, where does that leave the median income $43k per year Folks? You are saying go buy a Honda Hybrid, which validates my claim that the Toyota HSD system vehicles are for the upper middle class. McManus claims the demographic for the Prius is $100k per year income.
To me personally, I have no problem with that at all. However if someone is willing to buy to MEET transportation needs the payment differences between a Honda Civic vs a Toyota Prius (315 per mon) over 5 years is 32,900 dollars. So to me, it is a case of whether I want to PAY (-) 315 per mo and have a depreciating asset at the 5th year or have 32,900 at the 5 year mark. Clearly there are a myraid of choices.
Longer term the effects are even greater. Since the diesel is capable of going 25,000 hours, keeping a diesel 500,000 miles means I will buy buying one car vs two. In terms of cost, I would rather buy one car instead of two. Of course I am fully aware that some or even a majority of folks would rather buy two instead of one. So is the money better deployed over 10 years earning money or making payments? Again clearly there are a myraid of choices.
It seems like good business to allow the more efficient vehicle to be used/bought where it performs better. Your conclusion seems to be borne out by the actual facts.
Toyota's marketing is irrelevant to the "cost" of hybrid technology
if we want to follow this poor logic, then ALL diesels are DUDS in California, since it is illegal to buy one
hybrids win
in fact, anything wins versus a diesel
yeah, that's a useful discussion
[eye roll]
Hasn't Toyota admitted that it subsidizes the cost of its hybrids? Doesn't this mean that those who are willing to buy hybrids are getting all the "extras" (NAV, etc.) at LESS than what those extras would cost you in a ICE Camry? Hyrbirds are more of an advantage than I thought!!
Toyota's marketing is irrelevant to the "cost" of hybrid technology"...
I for one on a theory basis would not agree. On a practical basis we can agree to disagree. In fact if I were in the business I would wish you were my competitor!! It is a bit like saying, Toyota should ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of folks who own Toyota Avalons are between the ages of 50-65 years old, and do a full court press to market the Avalon to the Scion set, hoping to appreciably change the demographics of the Avalon!!?? Further the Scion set shows little to NO inclination to go to the hybrid power train.
Also the absence of diesels has really been due to their systematic EXCLUSION by the regulatory powers that be since the 1970's or the past 25-30 years. We can see other obstacles in the 5 state ban on the sale of new and in some states used diesels. Which in a manner of speaking has been a total DUD, this has been historical and forward looking.
diesels are a complete DUD in California
Case COMPLETELY closed
And there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, too....(seriously rolled eyes)
They are keeping the ban because diesel exhaust is a known cancer causing killer. This diesel ban was in place long before the first hybrid was sold in the USA....
Those who want diesels so badly should just buy a diesel for a relative to use in another state. Then take that car back once it hits 7500 miles. Maybe you could even get the relative to assume some of the costs (insurance, registration)
hmmmm - here's a new used one for $32,000!!! (YIKES!)
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?rdpage=thumb&car_id=204167740&dealer_id=56- 4705&car_year=2006&mod_bookmark_id=null&search_type=used&num_records=&make=VOLKS- &distance=0&model=JET&address=94402&certified=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1153160- 519969&min_price=&end_year=2006&start_year=2005&isp=y&lang=&cardist=18
here's another...for $28K
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=201647174&dealer_id=7136352&car_yea- r=2005&model=JET&num_records=&bkms=1153160519969&lang=&isp=y&start_year=2005&mod- _bookmark_id=null&certified=&search_type=used&distance=0&make=VOLKS&min_price=&a- ddress=94402&advanced=&end_year=2006&max_price=&cardist=756
YIKES - Talk about the how diesel technology just is not worth it.....