barnstormer64 If you have the CVT fluid and high pressure case filter changed would you mind letting me/us know the cost? Just curiosity! I am going to have mine done before 60K also but not sure at what mileage. Thanks
I think that when the Ford engineers determine the maintentance frequency, they probably overestimate the frequency rather than underestimate. So in reality, the transmission fluid would probably be fine for a 100,000 before it needs changed, but just to be on the safe-safe side, they put it at 60,000.
Plus the Ford lawyers wishing to avoid lemon lawsuits and finance guys trying to prevent the ESP from paying out more than they have too probably also contribute to a very conservative maintenance frequencies, since the customer always pays for routine maintenance, such as transmission fluid change, it's to the benefit of Ford to make that frequency as often as possible, that's why I think the 60,000 is already very conservative. I don't see any need to do it sooner.
It's sort of like people who change their oil more often than the factory recommendations, but I believe that all recommended maintenance frequencies are already so conservative there's hardly ever a reason to increase the frequency even more.
But for those who think it's worth it, I'd like to know the reasoning behind their maintenace interval, because if the reason is just "I like to baby my car" "It's only a small cost so it's worth it" "Just to be on the safe side" or any other similar subjective reasons, then you might as well change the oil, tires, transmission fluid, et. every week
I change my oil every 2,500 miles. You want my "reasoning" behind this? Go ask Ford Motor Co. Their onboard "Message Center" tells me to.
I'm using Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend as recommended and a new Motorcraft filter. After every change I reset the "Message Center" oil-life monitor to 100%. After about 2,500 miles or so, it's telling me to change the oil again. It doesn't even look dirty when I drain it out. Go figure.
The manual says one thing, the "Message Center" another.
passat 2000, I take it that you do not drive your Freestyle very much. Mine goes to zero % oil life at exactly 5000 miles. I do drive a lot though. I average almost 900 to 1000 miles per week. So every 5 weeks I'm getting the oil changed and the tires rotated. Right now I get it done for free at the dealership because Ford was offering a free 25,000 mile service contract in January when you bought a Freestyle. I'll be getting the 15,000 service done later this week. The service department will also put a sticker in the window saying I need my oil changed in 3000 miles, which I will remove and throw away when I get home.
Actually it's good to know that the message center will notify the owner that an oil change is due at 2500 miles and for others (like me who also drives a lot of highway miles) that it's due at about 5000 miles.
Like the previous poster, I'm guessing that if the message center shows 0% for the oil change at 2500 miles, then you may have been driving either pretty hard (ie. lots of high rpms) or you haven't been driving many miles and regardless of the miles, the computer will tell you it's time for an oil change based solely on time.
How long does it take you to get to 2500 miles and what sort of driving do you do?
And like the previous poster, I also throw out the little sticky telling me I need another oil change at 3000 miles.
My comments are interleaved with barnstormer64's below:
"I think that when the Ford engineers determine the maintenance frequency, they probably overestimate the frequency rather than underestimate. So in reality, the transmission fluid would probably be fine for a 100,000 before it needs changed, but just to be on the safe-safe side, they put it at 60,000."
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We are talking about a somewhat unique CVT transmission that has only been on the market a few years. How do you suggest Ford knows for sure one way or the other how long the transmission fluid lasts in the real world? I'm certain they estimated that 60,000 miles was good for the majority of users. Now if you want to go 100,000 miles that is your perogitave, however don't expect any help from Ford if your transmission fails prematurely.
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"Plus the Ford lawyers wishing to avoid lemon lawsuits and finance guys trying to prevent the ESP from paying out more than they have too probably also contribute to a very conservative maintenance frequencies, since the customer always pays for routine maintenance, such as transmission fluid change, it's to the benefit of Ford to make that frequency as often as possible, that's why I think the 60,000 is already very conservative. I don't see any need to do it sooner."
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You've got this backwards. Over the last decade or so automakers have been bending over backwards to advertise extended maintenance intervals in order to sell their cars. Each manufacturer wants prospective buyers to believe that their offering doesn't need as much maintenance as the next guys. Why do you think you hear so much about 100,000 mile tune-up intervals and coolant that lasts 150,000 miles? In perfect conditions it may be so, but who always drives in perfect conditions?
Most maintenance programs also list a "severe maintenance" schedule which requires far more aggressive maintenance than the standard schedule. Most people probably brush this off thinking it doesn't apply to them, but I saw a study once that found over 80% of drivers qualify for "severe service". All that you need are frequent short trips, or a lot of stop and go highway or inner city type driving, or very hot and/or very cold weather. Any of these qualify you.
You also have to understand that each manufacturer is mainly concerned about getting their vehicle through the warranty period without having to fork out for repairs. At 80,000 miles YOU are on the hook if the CVT fails, not Ford. Isn't it prudent that you do everything you can to make sure it doesn't fail?
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"It's sort of like people who change their oil more often than the factory recommendations, but I believe that all recommended maintenance frequencies are already so conservative there's hardly ever a reason to increase the frequency even more."
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Due to environmental concerns and the aforementioned low maintenance image most automakers are trying to establish they have been extending the recommended intervals. I think you'd find very different recommendations ideed if the engineers actually wrote the manuals rather than the marketing department.
Ford is doing OK recommending 5,000 mile changes on semi-synthetic. That is about the limit for non-fully synthetic oil. Other manufacturers have gone as far as to recommend 10,000 or even 15,000 mile changes, but on fully synthetic. What has happened is people tend go to the quickie lube for the $19.95 special where the cheapest traditional oil and filters are used. Some may even have your mindset and think if 15,000 miles is OK, then 20,000 must be fine. Then they wonder why they have engine problems as the car ages.
Getting the oil changed regularly is one of the most important things you can do for your car. I can't for the life of me fathom why someone would spend $30,000 on a car and then complain about a $30 oil change every 5,000 miles.
The interesting component here is most people who buy new cars only keep them for 4 or 5 years. This perhaps is why they don't care to maintain them properly, since most of the problems caused by lack of maintenance will befall the next owner. Personally I care about these things since I usually am the next owner. If I were looking to buy a used car from you and you told me about your cavalier attitude towards maintenance I'd walk.
My comments are interleaved with barnstormer64's below:
Correction: those weren't MY comments . . they were the comments of bobw3
As to my reasons why I would change the CVT fluid at 30k or 20k . . it's basically what I stated before: 60k seems to me to be a LONG time before changing out a critical fluid like the transmission fluid.
If I'm not mistaken, I think that 30k is the "severe maintance" schedule recommended. So, I'll use that, or perhaps even cut it back to 20k.
When I used "dino oil" (or a synthetic blend), I changed my oil at 2500 miles. Now that I've gone to Mobil-1 full synthetic, I'm going with 5000 miles.
Hopefully I won't regret switching to 0W-30 instead of the 5W-20 now that I'm at 10,000 miles on the odometer.
"After every change I reset the "Message Center" oil-life monitor to 100%. After about 2,500 miles or so, it's telling me to change the oil again. It doesn't even look dirty when I drain it out. Go figure."
Maybe out of the topic, but does anyone know if the CVT on Freestyle is a Ford made ( Ford own CVT?) or is a "leasing"-clone of what Nissan, or Honda, or Audi is offering already? Thanks, Dan
The manual (2005) indicates that the oil life will drop to 0% after 5,000 miles or 180 days. It has nothing to do with the quality of the oil in the car (bobw3's post #107 indicates that "the oil doesn't even look dirty").
For me, 5,000 miles always comes before 180 days have elapsed. However, if I did not have an oil life monitor I would still change my oil at about 5,000 miles. The monitor is just a reminder.
I’m not an engineer (is anyone here?) so I don’t know exactly how the engineers determine the fluid changing interval (probably some type of failure rate analysis), but what makes you say that you’re, “certain they estimated that 60,000 miles was good for the majority of users” ??? I just don’t believe that the Ford engineers just pulled 60,000 miles as the service interval out of the air.
I also don’t believe that Ford uses a 60,000 mile transmission fluid change interval as a way to advertise & sell their cars. I can’t imagine anyone using this as a factor for buying a car. Plus again, it’s in Ford’s benefit to convince users to maintain their vehicles in the best manner possible, because it prevents warranty losses. So if Ford thought it would save money through less ESP payouts (up to 100,000 miles on many ESPs) to have everyone change their fluid (at the owner’s cost) every 30,000 miles instead of every 60,000 miles, then of course Ford would do it because it would be more profitable and make the bean counters happy. So that’s another reason that I think the recommended service intervals are conservative to start with just for the profit motive.
Items Needing Special Attention If you operate your Ford, Lincoln or Mercury primarily in one of the more demanding "Special Operating Conditions" listed below, you will need to have some items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations, see your Dealership service advisor or qualified service professional. Towing a trailer or using a camper or car-top carrier Extensive idling and/or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use such as delivery, taxi, patrol car or livery Operating in dusty conditions such as unpaved or dusty roads Off-road operation Use of E85 50% of the time or greater (flex fuel vehicles only)”
Note the comment, “If you only occasionally operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to perform the additional maintenance” I for one don’t fit into any of these categories.
I guess the bottom line is that when I hear comments on these forums indicating that the manufacturer’s service interval isn’t good enough for them, I never hear any logical or technical reasons for their answers. So tell me, what is the difference between the bulk oil used at Walmart compared to other oils, and show me the studies and analysis. Show me studies and analysis comparing the failure rates of transmissions under a 30,000 mile vs a 60,000 mile oil change interval. Show me some evidence that the Ford engineers recommended a 30,000 mile interval but were overridden by the marketing department.
All I’m saying is that I have yet to hear any evidence that increasing the service interval will make the cars last longer or prevent any future problems. I guess I’m naïve and just believe that the manufacturer knows better than the average Joe. But for the people that service their vehicle more often than is necessary...go for it. It’s your money and you can spend it on whatever you want. But I don't believe there's any factual basis for spending it on extra maintenance. In fact, I'd rather have technicians touching my car the least amount as possible, since that reduces the chance that some tech will make a mistake on one of these extra fluid changes and strip the threads, over tighten something, overfill fluid, bump or ding some other part of the car while performing the service, etc. I think (yeah, just my opinion) that the probability of a technician error will be more harmful in the long run than not performing these extra fluid changes. I’ll stick with the manufacturer’s service interval.
And you’ll never buy used car from me, since I keep them a very long time. My first car was an old Subaru that finally died (body problems) at over 220K miles, I had a Ford Escort up to 180K miles (it was totalled while parked in the street by a drunk driver), I currently drive a ’99 Cougar with 120K miles, and my 2005 Freestyle has 31K miles. I’ve never had any engine or transmission problems with any vehicle. Most of my problems have been electrical, alternator & AC related in nature.
I’ll stick with the manufacturer’s service interval
Me too, but if the interval seems a bit short, that's a strike against buying that make/model. It may not be a deal killer, but I'd rather buy the rig with a 7,500 normal service oil change interval than one with 5,000 or 3,500 miles (that raises a Toyota sludge issue in my mind).
but I'd rather buy the rig with a 7,500 normal service oil change interval than one with 5,000 or 3,500 miles
The problem is, these numbers are meaningless unless you know how they were arrived at. I'm pretty sure that each company is free to use its own analysis (assuming any REAL engineering analysis is done) and then get with its OWN marketing group to decide what threshold to use.
Consider a hypothetical, where three companies end up having the SAME data available to them: At 3,500 mile oil changes, only 0.1% of cars will suffer enough wear by 100k miles to warrant an engine exchange . . at 5,000 mile oil changes, that goes to 0.15%, and at 7,500 mile oil changes, it goes to 0.20%.
Each company may have the EXACT SAME engineering data, but choose a different cutoff to determine their recommended service intervals.
If this hypothetical were true, which car would you rather choose? The cars would have identical engineering data, but different assumptions on where to "draw the line".
I am an engineer (but not in the automotive business). People tend to forget that there's a lot of SUBJECTIVITY that goes into engineering when it comes down to the final recommendation. The raw data may be identical, but different people can make different recommendations based on that same data.
The longer interval. I never want to see another Zerk fitting and I'd just as soon have the hood welded shut. :shades:
I think some of it is marketing instead of engineering. As you indicated, long intervals mean quality to some people and other brands toss out short maintenance intervals, figuring that if you bought a performance or premium brand, you'll expect to maintain it on a "premium" schedule with "premium" fluids.
The manufacturers do have a good handle on warranty costs, and that has to relate to fluid change intervals to some degree. Ford's claims rate is 2.6% (Warranty Week).
Which begs the next question that I've probably overlooked in here - does the Freestyle CVT have a tranny dipstick?
There is a lot of information on the net about the Ford CVT. I'm not an expert but I have read a lot about it. The CVT was designed by German company ZF Friedrichshafen AG, and is manufactured at Ford's Batavia Ohio plant. This plant is scheduled to close in a year or so. The one part that Ford does not produce is the Chain. The chain is an Audi product and is imported.
The rear disc brake pads on my 2005 Freestyle need to be replaced immediately. I have chaged the pads on all of my other cars for many years, so I thought there would be no problem doing this in my new Freestyle. However, once I get the caliper removed, I cannot get the piston to go back down using the C-clamp method. I need some guidance on how to do this. Does anyone know the trick on the Freestyle to get the piston back down?
The rear disc brake pads on my 2005 Freestyle need to be replaced immediately. I need some guidance on how to do this. Does anyone know the trick on the Freestyle to get the piston back down?
Yeah, take it top your Ford dealer. The reason your rear pads need to be replaced is because some of the original pads were defective and Ford is replacing them as needed.
They will do it for free...or they would have before you pulled them apart. They even replaced my rear rotors because standard procedure is to turn down /replace the rotors whenever the pads get changed.
You should have done more research on Edmunds before jumping in and doing the job yourself.
Actually, I have not done anything yet, so I may still be in luck. I called my Ford dealership and they said it would be $250 to replace the pads and didn't even offer that there were defective pads.
Ahem. Well obviously they wouldn't be able to tell whether or not your pads were defective over the phone. If you call any service department on the phone and ask how much a service is.. they are going to quote you their standard fee. Like Duh...
Cut 'em some slack here. Take the vehicle over to them and politely suggest that the pads wore out to soon. See what they say. It's not always the dealer's fault ya know.
The dealer told me the pads were paper thin, and obviously needed to be replaced. I questioned that they wore out in less than 20K miles and he replied that "they do that sometimes." He did not alert me that some of the pads were defective on this model and that Ford was replacing them for free. He did, however, tell me that it would cost $250 to replace them.
Since I've replaced disc brakes for about 30 years on my own, I thought it would be no problem to do the job myself. But, I cannot seem to get the piston in the caliper to re-seat. I was just wondering if someone else had tried this job and knew the trick to getting the piston to seat.
BTW, a really good friend of mine owns the Ford dealership in town. I called him and he had not heard of the problem with the brakes, but he is just the owner and has nothing to do with the hands-on day-to-day operation of the dealership. He gave me the general manager's cell phone, but he is yet to return my call. I'm hoping for the best, as I really like Fords.
OK, I get it. Please share what you find out about the supposed "problem". (a TSB perhaps?) I've always noticed a significant amount of brake dust on the rear wheels of my '05 SEL.
The problem I was having with my brakes was I coul dfeel a pulsing when I stepped on the brakes with any moderate or heavy pressure. I brought it in, and they told me without even loking at it that there was a TSB on the brake pads.
The link above, when searched for brake problems comes up with issue I was having. pulsing brakes...which led to premature wear. They replaced my pads AND the rotors for free.
Dealer checked my brakes and advised to replace pads and rotors to alleviate the noise..Stated that brakes are out of warranty(over 12 mnths) and are not covered as per the TSB..I do not have the visibility to the TSB but he states that is what is in the TSB..net is.. I'm out luck as far as coverage..
My rear pads wore out at 20,000 and scored the rotors. The dealer is replacing the pads for free, but the caliper won't reseat, and he can't get a replacement. Ford has left him high and dry without parts. So I'm without a car now for 5 days, and have no idea when I'll get it back.
Well the dealer had the car for 5 days, but on the fifth, Ford actually found a way to get them a rear right caliper that was on backorder. The dealer fixed it today and had me back in my car today for free. I didn't like not having a car (well maybe it was nice to have an excuse to hang around the house for couple of days and not have to buy fuel) but I have to give KUDOS to Ford and the dealer, CASA Ford in El Paso, for getting things done right and fairly.
Here's the TBS. I have the same problem. Took it in last Saturday at 7:30AM. They called at 3:30PM to tell me they didn't have the brakes or rotors because it is to new. It's a 2005. Have an appt. this Sat. Now the engine light is on again. Maybe they can fix this too.
Brakes - Rear Brake Thumping or Roughness
TSB 05-4-7
03/07/05
THUMPING NOISE OR ROUGHNESS FROM REAR BRAKES
FORD: 2005 Five Hundred, Freestyle
MERCURY: 2005 Montego
ISSUE Some 2005 Freestyle, Five Hundred, and Montego vehicles built between 5/17/2004 and 2/9/2005 may exhibit a thumping noise or roughness from the rear brakes. This may be caused by corrosion between the pad and rotor.
ACTION Verify that the rear brakes are the root cause first before continuing with this TSB. To verify, road test the vehicle and lightly apply the parking brake, per procedure in Workshop Manual Section 100-04 pinpoint test A4. If the rear brakes are the root cause, it may be necessary to resurface the rear rotors and replace the rear brake pads with revised pads. Refer to the following Service Procedure.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Resurface the rear rotors using the Rotunda on-car brake lathe.
2. Replace the rear brake pads with revised pads. Refer to Workshop Manual Section 206-04.
NOTE REFER TO TSB FIGURE 1 WHEN RELEASING THE TENSION OF THE PARKING BRAKE CABLE, PER THE WORKSHOP MANUAL.
NOTE DURING REASSEMBLY BE SURE TO INSTALL NEW CALIPER ANCHOR PLATE BOLTS AND TORQUE TO 81 LB-FT (110 N.m).
NOTE CLEAN THE RESIDUAL ADHESIVE FROM THE BRAKE CALIPER FINGERS AND PISTONS USING BRAKE PARTS CLEANER (PM-4) OR EQUIVALENT.
3. After brake reassembly, with the engine running, apply 20-30 lb-force (89-133 Newtons) to the brake pedal for approximately 1 minute. This will ensure the brake pads adhere to the caliper before any contamination can be introduced.
ADDITIONAL DISASSEMBLY/REASSEMBLY NOTES :
NOTE THE BRAKE PADS MUST BE SEPARATED FROM THE BRAKE CALIPER BEFORE THE BRAKE CALIPER CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE BRAKE CALIPER ANCHOR PLATE.
NOTE DO NOT USE THE BRAKE CALIPER SIGHT HOLE TO RETRACT THE PISTONS AS THIS CAN DAMAGE THE PISTON AND BOOTS.
NOTE THE LH CALIPER PISTON TURNS CLOCKWISE AND THE RH CALIPER PISTON TURNS COUNTERCLOCKWISE.
Parts Block
NOTE BRAKE PADS ARE COVERED FOR 12 MONTHS OR 18,000 MILES ONLY.
WARRANTY STATUS: Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
050407A 2005 Five Hundred/ 2.6 Hrs. Montego/Freestyle: Replace The Rear Brake Pads (Includes Time To Road Test, And Resurface The Rear Rotors With On-Car Lathe) (Do Not Use With 2001BB, 2001B3P, 2001B3PT)
DEALER CODING CONDITION BASIC PART NO. CODE 2200 42
The dealer told me there was no tbs for the problem I had. my car was not mfg during the time period mentioned in the above tbs, so maybe Ford thought the problem was fixed, but it was not.
Engine light, maybe someone "borrowed" some gas from you and forgot to tighten the fuel cap correctly. Not putting the fuel cap on correctly will cause an engine light malfunction on many cars
I have a 2005 SEL with 40K miles and just now put new tires on it. The old tires really didn't look too awful. The biggest surprise for me was that I didn't need new brake pads! They are at about 50%. So, I guess I'll wait a bit for those. I changed the fuel filter and I also had the transmission serviced. This part made me somewhat nervous, I must say. I didn't used the Ford people simply because I don't trust the ones around here. They have no idea about the Freestyles and even though they've been out for a couple of years now, they are awfully slow on the uptake. I used a fellow that does nothing but transmissions day in and day out, has rebuilt several for us over the years and we've never had a problem. We had to take it to him twice because he got sent the wrong gaskets the first time around. He ended up charging us a bit more than he quoted because of how hard stuff is to reach, etc. But, I like this car so much that I'm keeping it until the wheels fall off (I traded in my Explorer and Expedition after two years each).
It doesn't need anything until 60K, per the manual (even though I got scolded for not doing it at 30k by the dealer. It was very satisfying to bring the manual in to him and point that out). In any case, I had the money and the time to do it now (gaskets, fluid change--that's about it) so I went ahead and did it. I put lotsa miles on my car in a hurry, so I figured might as well do it now because that next 20k will be here before I know it.
Hello, I guess I should have read this board before last sunday when roadside assistance had to come pick me up before my rear caliper froze up...hmm so they are telling me I will be without my vehicle for 30 days until they can get the part, I called ford usa and told them they can take a caliper off an assembly line car instead of waiting...and I made the dealership give me a vehicle until they figure it out.. I told ford usa that it is an unacceptable practice to not have critical car parts available on a timely basis, ie. 3-5 business days.. :mad:
It did not take that long for my parts to arrive. They said they were on severe backorder, but managed to get the part overnight when I called Ford to complain.
I'm keeping a close eye on my repaired rear brakes.
I really dread taking my car to Ford for repairs of any kind, as Ford as a terrible reputation for abusing customers and being unable or unwilling to honor warranties.
Just the truth. In comparison with most of the Japanese carmakers, Ford especially has a bad record. Just look at the history of Honda, for example, providing extra warranty coverage beyond normal mile/time limits when they have an engineering problem. The difference is notable. You haven't noticed this over the years? Pay attention from now on.
Just to set the record straight, I am a tech at a Ford dealer and have past history at a Honda store. Ford is VERY generous with after warranty repair claims. Ford has in place specific procedures for the dealer to help with covering repairs out of warranty. Honda on the other hand will not even listen to you if you have 36001 miles with a break down. Also if a Honda has a problem you might just hear "they all do that, there is no fix" Only when the government steps in after Honda cheated on emmisions compliance did Honda extend any warranty. Don't believe all you hear about the imports, the domestics & Ford in particular are as good or better. By the way, Ford builds & sells more F150s than all of Honda's output in a year.
fordwrench, I hope you're right about Ford. I've got two ('05 F150 and an '05 Freestyle) because I liked the products, and am hoping reliability won't be a problem. No problems so far. I know its tough diagnosing car problems. I'm an engineer myself and understand the complexity. The '95-'98 Windstar head gasket fiasco came to mind, compared with the stories I've heard over the years about Honda's better attention to their reputation. I've met so many people that won't buy a Ford due to most of their vehicles being rated low, and having low reliability in Consumer Reports and J.D. Powers surveys of thousands of owners. I want Ford to kick some butt in the marketplace, tired of all the foreign makes having a better quality "reputation". In J.D. Power surveys of 3-year reliability, GM does better than Ford and Chrysler, and Toyota/Honda usually leads everybody. GM's designs are usually lacking, however. Each carmaker has strengths/weaknesses. If I were Ford execs, I'd be sick of having the lowest-rated minivan, not satisfied with the Ford Fusion's poor crash tests, and ashamed that Nissan has had the best V6 for about 8 years now.
fordwrench, I can't find linkages to lube (ball joints, tie rods, etc.) on the Freestyle. Is there one I'm missing? (Eventually I'll get a shop manual.) The maintenance guides I read mention lubricating anything that needs lubing, which doesn't exactly pinpoint where those might be. And for an '05 F-150 2WD, same problem. Being a Ford tech, I'm hoping you know. Does Ford have no grease fittings anywhere on these models?
There are no grease fittings on the Freestyle or the F150. On the Freestyle you are supossed to add lube to the steering stops. They are the big horn like bars attached to the spindle and the rubber pad on the lower arm. Just use chassis grease & not too much. The 05 f150 is not the Heritige model is it? That's the one that is the old style, if so then lube the idler arm otherwise nothing to lube.
Comments
If you have the CVT fluid and high pressure case filter changed would you mind letting me/us know the cost? Just curiosity! I am going to have mine done before 60K also but not sure at what mileage. Thanks
Plus the Ford lawyers wishing to avoid lemon lawsuits and finance guys trying to prevent the ESP from paying out more than they have too probably also contribute to a very conservative maintenance frequencies, since the customer always pays for routine maintenance, such as transmission fluid change, it's to the benefit of Ford to make that frequency as often as possible, that's why I think the 60,000 is already very conservative. I don't see any need to do it sooner.
It's sort of like people who change their oil more often than the factory recommendations, but I believe that all recommended maintenance frequencies are already so conservative there's hardly ever a reason to increase the frequency even more.
But for those who think it's worth it, I'd like to know the reasoning behind their maintenace interval, because if the reason is just "I like to baby my car" "It's only a small cost so it's worth it" "Just to be on the safe side" or any other similar subjective reasons, then you might as well change the oil, tires, transmission fluid, et. every week
I'm using Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend as recommended and a new Motorcraft filter. After every change I reset the "Message Center" oil-life monitor to 100%. After about 2,500 miles or so, it's telling me to change the oil again. It doesn't even look dirty when I drain it out. Go figure.
The manual says one thing, the "Message Center" another.
Like the previous poster, I'm guessing that if the message center shows 0% for the oil change at 2500 miles, then you may have been driving either pretty hard (ie. lots of high rpms) or you haven't been driving many miles and regardless of the miles, the computer will tell you it's time for an oil change based solely on time.
How long does it take you to get to 2500 miles and what sort of driving do you do?
And like the previous poster, I also throw out the little sticky telling me I need another oil change at 3000 miles.
"I think that when the Ford engineers determine the maintenance frequency, they probably overestimate the frequency rather than underestimate. So in reality, the transmission fluid would probably be fine for a 100,000 before it needs changed, but just to be on the safe-safe side, they put it at 60,000."
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We are talking about a somewhat unique CVT transmission that has only been on the market a few years. How do you suggest Ford knows for sure one way or the other how long the transmission fluid lasts in the real world? I'm certain they estimated that 60,000 miles was good for the majority of users. Now if you want to go 100,000 miles that is your perogitave, however don't expect any help from Ford if your transmission fails prematurely.
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"Plus the Ford lawyers wishing to avoid lemon lawsuits and finance guys trying to prevent the ESP from paying out more than they have too probably also contribute to a very conservative maintenance frequencies, since the customer always pays for routine maintenance, such as transmission fluid change, it's to the benefit of Ford to make that frequency as often as possible, that's why I think the 60,000 is already very conservative. I don't see any need to do it sooner."
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You've got this backwards. Over the last decade or so automakers have been bending over backwards to advertise extended maintenance intervals in order to sell their cars. Each manufacturer wants prospective buyers to believe that their offering doesn't need as much maintenance as the next guys. Why do you think you hear so much about 100,000 mile tune-up intervals and coolant that lasts 150,000 miles? In perfect conditions it may be so, but who always drives in perfect conditions?
Most maintenance programs also list a "severe maintenance" schedule which requires far more aggressive maintenance than the standard schedule. Most people probably brush this off thinking it doesn't apply to them, but I saw a study once that found over 80% of drivers qualify for "severe service". All that you need are frequent short trips, or a lot of stop and go highway or inner city type driving, or very hot and/or very cold weather. Any of these qualify you.
You also have to understand that each manufacturer is mainly concerned about getting their vehicle through the warranty period without having to fork out for repairs. At 80,000 miles YOU are on the hook if the CVT fails, not Ford. Isn't it prudent that you do everything you can to make sure it doesn't fail?
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"It's sort of like people who change their oil more often than the factory recommendations, but I believe that all recommended maintenance frequencies are already so conservative there's hardly ever a reason to increase the frequency even more."
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Due to environmental concerns and the aforementioned low maintenance image most automakers are trying to establish they have been extending the recommended intervals. I think you'd find very different recommendations ideed if the engineers actually wrote the manuals rather than the marketing department.
Ford is doing OK recommending 5,000 mile changes on semi-synthetic. That is about the limit for non-fully synthetic oil. Other manufacturers have gone as far as to recommend 10,000 or even 15,000 mile changes, but on fully synthetic. What has happened is people tend go to the quickie lube for the $19.95 special where the cheapest traditional oil and filters are used. Some may even have your mindset and think if 15,000 miles is OK, then 20,000 must be fine. Then they wonder why they have engine problems as the car ages.
Getting the oil changed regularly is one of the most important things you can do for your car. I can't for the life of me fathom why someone would spend $30,000 on a car and then complain about a $30 oil change every 5,000 miles.
The interesting component here is most people who buy new cars only keep them for 4 or 5 years. This perhaps is why they don't care to maintain them properly, since most of the problems caused by lack of maintenance will befall the next owner. Personally I care about these things since I usually am the next owner. If I were looking to buy a used car from you and you told me about your cavalier attitude towards maintenance I'd walk.
Chad
Correction: those weren't MY comments . . they were the comments of bobw3
As to my reasons why I would change the CVT fluid at 30k or 20k . . it's basically what I stated before: 60k seems to me to be a LONG time before changing out a critical fluid like the transmission fluid.
If I'm not mistaken, I think that 30k is the "severe maintance" schedule recommended. So, I'll use that, or perhaps even cut it back to 20k.
When I used "dino oil" (or a synthetic blend), I changed my oil at 2500 miles. Now that I've gone to Mobil-1 full synthetic, I'm going with 5000 miles.
Hopefully I won't regret switching to 0W-30 instead of the 5W-20 now that I'm at 10,000 miles on the odometer.
How much do you drive? What kind of driving?
Thanks,
Dan
For me, 5,000 miles always comes before 180 days have elapsed. However, if I did not have an oil life monitor I would still change my oil at about 5,000 miles. The monitor is just a reminder.
I also don’t believe that Ford uses a 60,000 mile transmission fluid change interval as a way to advertise & sell their cars. I can’t imagine anyone using this as a factor for buying a car. Plus again, it’s in Ford’s benefit to convince users to maintain their vehicles in the best manner possible, because it prevents warranty losses. So if Ford thought it would save money through less ESP payouts (up to 100,000 miles on many ESPs) to have everyone change their fluid (at the owner’s cost) every 30,000 miles instead of every 60,000 miles, then of course Ford would do it because it would be more profitable and make the bean counters happy. So that’s another reason that I think the recommended service intervals are conservative to start with just for the profit motive.
As far as your comment about “severe driving,” here’s what the Ford website says:
http://www.genuineservice.com/genuineservice/en/selectconfig
Items Needing Special Attention
If you operate your Ford, Lincoln or Mercury primarily in one of the more demanding "Special Operating Conditions" listed below, you will need to have some items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations, see your Dealership service advisor or qualified service professional.
Towing a trailer or using a camper or car-top carrier
Extensive idling and/or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use such as delivery, taxi, patrol car or livery
Operating in dusty conditions such as unpaved or dusty roads
Off-road operation
Use of E85 50% of the time or greater (flex fuel vehicles only)”
Note the comment, “If you only occasionally operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to perform the additional maintenance” I for one don’t fit into any of these categories.
I guess the bottom line is that when I hear comments on these forums indicating that the manufacturer’s service interval isn’t good enough for them, I never hear any logical or technical reasons for their answers. So tell me, what is the difference between the bulk oil used at Walmart compared to other oils, and show me the studies and analysis. Show me studies and analysis comparing the failure rates of transmissions under a 30,000 mile vs a 60,000 mile oil change interval. Show me some evidence that the Ford engineers recommended a 30,000 mile interval but were overridden by the marketing department.
All I’m saying is that I have yet to hear any evidence that increasing the service interval will make the cars last longer or prevent any future problems. I guess I’m naïve and just believe that the manufacturer knows better than the average Joe. But for the people that service their vehicle more often than is necessary...go for it. It’s your money and you can spend it on whatever you want. But I don't believe there's any factual basis for spending it on extra maintenance. In fact, I'd rather have technicians touching my car the least amount as possible, since that reduces the chance that some tech will make a mistake on one of these extra fluid changes and strip the threads, over tighten something, overfill fluid, bump or ding some other part of the car while performing the service, etc. I think (yeah, just my opinion) that the probability of a technician error will be more harmful in the long run than not performing these extra fluid changes. I’ll stick with the manufacturer’s service interval.
By the way, Nissan also uses a 60,000 service interval for the CVT, but maybe there’s a Ford/Nissan conspiracy going on! http://www.nissan.com.sg/service/pkg_psg.pdf
And you’ll never buy used car from me, since I keep them a very long time. My first car was an old Subaru that finally died (body problems) at over 220K miles, I had a Ford Escort up to 180K miles (it was totalled while parked in the street by a drunk driver), I currently drive a ’99 Cougar with 120K miles, and my 2005 Freestyle has 31K miles. I’ve never had any engine or transmission problems with any vehicle. Most of my problems have been electrical, alternator & AC related in nature.
It has nothing to do with the quality of the oil in the car (bobw3's post #107 indicates that "the oil doesn't even look dirty").
passat_2002 wrote that comment, not me.
Me too, but if the interval seems a bit short, that's a strike against buying that make/model. It may not be a deal killer, but I'd rather buy the rig with a 7,500 normal service oil change interval than one with 5,000 or 3,500 miles (that raises a Toyota sludge issue in my mind).
Steve, Host
The problem is, these numbers are meaningless unless you know how they were arrived at. I'm pretty sure that each company is free to use its own analysis (assuming any REAL engineering analysis is done) and then get with its OWN marketing group to decide what threshold to use.
Consider a hypothetical, where three companies end up having the SAME data available to them: At 3,500 mile oil changes, only 0.1% of cars will suffer enough wear by 100k miles to warrant an engine exchange . . at 5,000 mile oil changes, that goes to 0.15%, and at 7,500 mile oil changes, it goes to 0.20%.
Each company may have the EXACT SAME engineering data, but choose a different cutoff to determine their recommended service intervals.
If this hypothetical were true, which car would you rather choose? The cars would have identical engineering data, but different assumptions on where to "draw the line".
I am an engineer (but not in the automotive business). People tend to forget that there's a lot of SUBJECTIVITY that goes into engineering when it comes down to the final recommendation. The raw data may be identical, but different people can make different recommendations based on that same data.
I think some of it is marketing instead of engineering. As you indicated, long intervals mean quality to some people and other brands toss out short maintenance intervals, figuring that if you bought a performance or premium brand, you'll expect to maintain it on a "premium" schedule with "premium" fluids.
The manufacturers do have a good handle on warranty costs, and that has to relate to fluid change intervals to some degree. Ford's claims rate is 2.6% (Warranty Week).
Which begs the next question that I've probably overlooked in here - does the Freestyle CVT have a tranny dipstick?
Steve, Host
"How long does it take you to get to 2500 miles and what sort of driving do you do?"
stevedebi said:
"How much do you drive? What kind of driving?"
Hmmnn... it was six months to accumulate the last 2500 miles. Mostly short to medium distances.
OK guys.. I had forgotten that the 6 month interval was programmed into the oil-life monitor. My bad.
Interesting...I wonder how that compares with other manufacturers?
There is a lot of information on the net about the Ford CVT. I'm not an expert but I have read a lot about it. The CVT was designed by German company ZF Friedrichshafen AG, and is manufactured at Ford's Batavia Ohio plant. This plant is scheduled to close in a year or so. The one part that Ford does not produce is the Chain. The chain is an Audi product and is imported.
Yeah, take it top your Ford dealer. The reason your rear pads need to be replaced is because some of the original pads were defective and Ford is replacing them as needed.
They will do it for free...or they would have before you pulled them apart. They even replaced my rear rotors because standard procedure is to turn down /replace the rotors whenever the pads get changed.
You should have done more research on Edmunds before jumping in and doing the job yourself.
Cut 'em some slack here. Take the vehicle over to them and politely suggest that the pads wore out to soon. See what they say. It's not always the dealer's fault ya know.
What is the mileage on your '05 anyway?
Since I've replaced disc brakes for about 30 years on my own, I thought it would be no problem to do the job myself. But, I cannot seem to get the piston in the caliper to re-seat. I was just wondering if someone else had tried this job and knew the trick to getting the piston to seat.
BTW, a really good friend of mine owns the Ford dealership in town. I called him and he had not heard of the problem with the brakes, but he is just the owner and has nothing to do with the hands-on day-to-day operation of the dealership. He gave me the general manager's cell phone, but he is yet to return my call. I'm hoping for the best, as I really like Fords.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/tsbsearch.cfm
The problem I was having with my brakes was I coul dfeel a pulsing when I stepped on the brakes with any moderate or heavy pressure. I brought it in, and they told me without even loking at it that there was a TSB on the brake pads.
The link above, when searched for brake problems comes up with issue I was having. pulsing brakes...which led to premature wear.
They replaced my pads AND the rotors for free.
Good luck :-)
Brakes - Rear Brake Thumping or Roughness
TSB 05-4-7
03/07/05
THUMPING NOISE OR ROUGHNESS FROM REAR BRAKES
FORD:
2005 Five Hundred, Freestyle
MERCURY:
2005 Montego
ISSUE
Some 2005 Freestyle, Five Hundred, and Montego vehicles built between 5/17/2004 and 2/9/2005 may exhibit a thumping noise or roughness from the rear brakes. This may be caused by corrosion between the pad and rotor.
ACTION
Verify that the rear brakes are the root cause first before continuing with this TSB. To verify, road test the vehicle and lightly apply the parking brake, per procedure in Workshop Manual Section 100-04 pinpoint test A4. If the rear brakes are the root cause, it may be necessary to resurface the rear rotors and replace the rear brake pads with revised pads. Refer to the following Service Procedure.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Resurface the rear rotors using the Rotunda on-car brake lathe.
2. Replace the rear brake pads with revised pads. Refer to Workshop Manual Section 206-04.
NOTE REFER TO TSB FIGURE 1 WHEN RELEASING THE TENSION OF THE PARKING BRAKE CABLE, PER THE WORKSHOP MANUAL.
NOTE DURING REASSEMBLY BE SURE TO INSTALL NEW CALIPER ANCHOR PLATE BOLTS AND TORQUE TO 81 LB-FT (110 N.m).
NOTE CLEAN THE RESIDUAL ADHESIVE FROM THE BRAKE CALIPER FINGERS AND PISTONS USING BRAKE PARTS CLEANER (PM-4) OR EQUIVALENT.
3. After brake reassembly, with the engine running, apply 20-30 lb-force (89-133 Newtons) to the brake pedal for approximately 1 minute. This will ensure the brake pads adhere to the caliper before any contamination can be introduced.
ADDITIONAL DISASSEMBLY/REASSEMBLY NOTES :
NOTE THE BRAKE PADS MUST BE SEPARATED FROM THE BRAKE CALIPER BEFORE THE BRAKE CALIPER CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE BRAKE CALIPER ANCHOR PLATE.
NOTE DO NOT USE THE BRAKE CALIPER SIGHT HOLE TO RETRACT THE PISTONS AS THIS CAN DAMAGE THE PISTON AND BOOTS.
NOTE THE LH CALIPER PISTON TURNS CLOCKWISE AND THE RH CALIPER PISTON TURNS COUNTERCLOCKWISE.
Parts Block
NOTE BRAKE PADS ARE COVERED FOR 12 MONTHS OR 18,000 MILES ONLY.
WARRANTY STATUS: Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
050407A 2005 Five Hundred/ 2.6 Hrs.
Montego/Freestyle:
Replace The Rear Brake
Pads (Includes Time To
Road Test, And Resurface
The Rear Rotors With
On-Car Lathe) (Do Not
Use With 2001BB,
2001B3P, 2001B3PT)
DEALER CODING
CONDITION
BASIC PART NO. CODE
2200 42
Engine light, maybe someone "borrowed" some gas from you and forgot to tighten the fuel cap correctly. Not putting the fuel cap on correctly will cause an engine light malfunction on many cars
so they are telling me I will be without my vehicle for 30 days until they can get the part, I called ford usa and told them they can take a caliper off an assembly line car instead of waiting...and I made the dealership give me a vehicle until they figure it out.. I told ford usa that it is an unacceptable practice to not have critical car parts available on a timely basis, ie. 3-5 business days.. :mad:
I'm keeping a close eye on my repaired rear brakes.
I hope you're right about Ford. I've got two ('05 F150 and an '05 Freestyle) because I liked the products, and am hoping reliability won't be a problem. No problems so far. I know its tough diagnosing car problems. I'm an engineer myself and understand the complexity. The '95-'98 Windstar head gasket fiasco came to mind, compared with the stories I've heard over the years about Honda's better attention to their reputation. I've met so many people that won't buy a Ford due to most of their vehicles being rated low, and having low reliability in Consumer Reports and J.D. Powers surveys of thousands of owners. I want Ford to kick some butt in the marketplace, tired of all the foreign makes having a better quality "reputation". In J.D. Power surveys of 3-year reliability, GM does better than Ford and Chrysler, and Toyota/Honda usually leads everybody. GM's designs are usually lacking, however. Each carmaker has strengths/weaknesses. If I were Ford execs, I'd be sick of having the lowest-rated minivan, not satisfied with the Ford Fusion's poor crash tests, and ashamed that Nissan has had the best V6 for about 8 years now.
I like my Nissan V6 btw - the minivan surrounding it was assembled by Ford and it's holding up pretty well too. :shades:
I can't find linkages to lube (ball joints, tie rods, etc.) on the Freestyle. Is there one I'm missing? (Eventually I'll get a shop manual.) The maintenance guides I read mention lubricating anything that needs lubing, which doesn't exactly pinpoint where those might be. And for an '05 F-150 2WD, same problem. Being a Ford tech, I'm hoping you know. Does Ford have no grease fittings anywhere on these models?