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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion
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This is a great point. I definitely agree that they would encourage inferior test drives to bolster their own image.
I am not talking about crumple zones. I was talking more about advanced safety features that you mentioned, like stability control, traction control etc. I am not sure that those will work when needed. But, that's just my perception.
Terry's quotes may be anecdotal, but when it comes to ME buying a car with MY money, I'd still place more importance to Terry's words over any auto magazine reviews.
**Problems to date (after 4 yrs and 67K miles) - Throttle Position Sensor acted up at 45K miles. This caused the car to hesitate for about 1 second the first time the gas pedal was pressed after the car had sat for 12+ hours. This was replaced under warranty. On the same visit to the dealer, they replaced the alternator, also under warranty (don't know if this was somehow tied into the failure of the Throttle Position Sensor or not). Also around this same time, the transmission began to "flare" in rpm between 2nd and 3rd gear - the computer was reprogrammed under warranty, and this was resolved. Lastly, we had a latch break on the center console storage area. This was replaced under warranty.
**General dislikes - The interior plastic scratches fairly easily, although hasn’t fallen apart. Sheet metal dents (gets dinged) easily. My wife parks in a parking deck at work which doesn't help. Also, this was the top of the line (at the time) Elantra (sunroof, upgraded stereo, etc), but it still had hubcaps. 15" wheels, but hubcaps - I hate hubcaps.
**General likes - Seats and carpet have held up really well - Although we vacuum weekly, and steam clean yearly. Paint is still really glossy. Gas mileage: just got 39mpg on an interstate trip last weekend with 67K on the clock. Car is still relatively “tight” and rattle free.
So, here's my summary. After the Elantra experience, would I ever buy a Hyundai in the future? If I were shopping for an Accord/Fusion/Camry type of car, I would add the Sonata to my list. I have found the Elantra to be no more problematic than any other make of car I have owned. However, I am a stickler when it comes to maintenance and I am sure that doesn't hurt – so in terms of reliability, I have no reason to eliminate them THUS FAR. Then there’s resale - If that were the deal breaker for me, I would go Honda or Yota, and stay away from Ford and Hyundai.
In our case, the Elantra is going to become a third car this spring – and will be driven until it meets its death. It has almost become a game to me to see just how many miles I can put on it. We are going to buy a gas guzzler this spring (we need something capable of towing a boat in the near future), and I figure the Elantra will be worth more to me as a third car than for what I could get for it as a trade in. My philosophy for car buying is to make a list of my wants/needs, and then buy the vehicle that best fits, and that is the best deal for the money, regardless of make. I have however totally excluded one manufacturer from consideration based solely on experiences I had at the service department of their local dealer.
The one Ford I bought--a '95 Mystique--was such a reliability disaster that I would hesitate to get another Ford like the Fusion, although I realize they have made improvements since then. But my experience would keep me from buying the first year of any Ford product.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051013/bs_nm/autos_fuel_dc
The Five Hundred's resale is excellent. I expect the Fusion to perform similarly.
They're not in the same league resale-wise as the Accord/Camry, but leagues better than anything made by Hyundai. Korean cars have the resale of week-old chinese takeout.
The old saw "you get what you pay for" doesn't mean a lot to Hyundai fans, I see.
You make an excellent point; in five years, perhaps a Hyundai will retain its value much better than today. However, it has been 15 years since GM has churned out cars with vile reliability, and they still haven't recovered. I wouldn't expect Hyundai's fortunes to be much better.
No, it doesn't--because it no longer applies to Hyundai in general and the Sonata in particular, in the (typically) negative sense of the phrase. I could just as easily say that with the Accord and Camry, you don't get all that you pay for.
As for Ford resale value, how can the Five Hundred have any track record for resale when it's a new model? Also, how can its resale value hold up when dealers are slashing prices on it, e.g. $18k for a nicely-equipped Five Hundred? That is not the way to keep up resale values. Honda does have the right approach there: no public rebates, and minimal fleet sales.
Must be a regional thing. In my area, THE ONLY Ford that is selling used for anywhere near what it did brand new are the few '05 Mustang GTs that have already made it to the pre-owned lots.
In terms of sedans in this class, the Hondas are the only ones that significantly hold their value.
The Five Hundred is now one-model year old.
Apples to apples: The dirt cheapest you can get a new 2006 Five Hundred (base SE, no additional options) is around $21,000. Locally, dealers are advertising used '05 SEs for around $20k (mileage dependant of course). This is in western Michigan so YMMV, but that's not too shabby.
No, it doesn't--because it no longer applies to Hyundai in general and the Sonata in particular, in the (typically) negative sense of the phrase. I could just as easily say that with the Accord and Camry, you don't get all that you pay for.
Well, with Accord or Camry I will get a car that will last me as long as I want to keep it, and I will get fair resale when it's time to get rid of it. Buying a Hyundai is like playing the lotto in that regard, and I'm not much of a gambler.
The parallel ends right there. It's one thing to buy a Samsung big-screen TV over a Sony because it's 10% cheaper, and quite another to buy a HyunKia over a HonYota because it's 10% cheaper.
Samsung had a much easier task competing with Sony because you don't put your kids into a Samsung and drive it across the country.
The reputation for reliability and longevity is worth a whole lot more for automobiles than for any other consumer products, and rightly so.
The issues that impressed me:
engine: as good as a Honda - which is as good as it gets. The Sonata V6 is very refined, with good power and torque across the rev band. It has that ripping smoothness at high rmp that only the finest engines produce. It is interesting to note that this engine produces more power and torque that the 3.0 liter engine in the new BMW 325i.
exterior styling: of course this is subjective, but.... I really like it. I think that Hyundai has developed a strong lookinig car, with nice design elements that integrate well. Certainly, there are styling elements from other cars, but that is not unusual. In fact, it is difficult to find any car that does not have design elements that are similar to others. I find that the Sonata's design is more independent than many other current cars.
interior styling: I think that the interior works well and looks good. The material choices and the layout of the dash, door panels, seats and console are quite nice. I particularly like the faux carbon fiber treatment that comes with the gray interior. (I am not a fan of glossy wood on car interiors).
suspension: competent but a little soft for my tastes. The car has a complian suspension that seems better in the LX than on the other models. Part of this is the tires.
quality: the Sonata has the highest quality of any car I have owned. One example is the exterior panel gaps. These are as straight as my two Mercedes and the gap is smaller. (also better than a Camry, Accord or Infinity). The fit and finish of the interior trim is also excellent.
overall: an impressive car that puts Hyundai into the top leagues of auto manufactureres. I think that this is a breakthrough car.
TEAShea
TEAShea
Using resale values to disparage the competition is an old, old trick ToyHon fans just love to play. Let me remind you. They used to say stay away from Altima because its resale is worth nothing. They can't say that anymore because its resale is now above Camry and Accord.
When Infiniti M debuted earlier this year, Lexus fans were disparaging its future resale compared to GS. Well, now Kelly blue book put M resale as class leading, certainly above GS. So much for going by history!
It's just Toyota and Honda fans trying to disparage a new competitor, they have no way to know how Sonata resale will hold up. If it's well built and accepted by the market, there's no reason why its resale should tank compared to the leaders!
I like to think of Hyundai as having different tiers of "breakthroughs" as well. I guess I think of it more as "steps" with each new generation of their car designs. The quality and the competitiveness of the Sonata has solid underpinnings based on the experience the company has gained with the success of previous models such as the Santa Fe and Elantra you mention.
If the Sonata turns out to be a solid and reliable car, the demand for used Sonatas will be there. There won't be the huge volume of them on the road like Camrys, so supply will be relatively limited and therefore the resale values will increase.
The big "IF" is - did Hyundai get the built-in quality right, down to the DNA? That is the million dollar question. My gut feel is yes. The new Sonata is a landmark vehicle. The first year bugs will be rooted out and these new generation of Hyundais are about to repaint the automotive landscape just as the Japanese did 25 years ago...
Toyota: Be Afraid!
~alpha
That is patently false. Altima's resale is much better than before, but stilll not in ToyHon's league. And Nissan didn't have anything like the Hyundai's Excel to live down.
Books may show different numbers. Ask car dealers or look at auction numbers to get real answers.
When Infiniti M debuted earlier this year, Lexus fans were disparaging its future resale compared to GS. Well, now Kelly blue book put M resale as class leading, certainly above GS. So much for going by history
This is also false. The GS will certainly trump the M when it comes to retaining value. KBB does not cut checks for used cars.
It's just Toyota and Honda fans trying to disparage a new competitor, they have no way to know how Sonata resale will hold up. If it's well built and accepted by the market, there's no reason why its resale should tank compared to the leaders
And yet somehow you do !!!!
It will take several years of building good cars consistently, and then resale values will follow suit. We need 70-100K cars with about 70-100K miles on them to see how well they hold up in the real world.
I cannot provide a link, because it is a subscriber site, but if you have access to that issue, you will see exactly what I am talking about. Or just wait a month or so until this year's issue comes out.
~alpha
That's why there is advertising, car reviews and forums such as this one. Get those people, or some them, to take a look at a car (not just the Sonata, but any car) and let the car sell itself.
A year ago I wouldn't have considered a Hyundai. When I began looking at cars last February someone suggested I look at the '05 Sonata. Six months ago I bought an '05 Sonata GLS Special Value for $16,700 + TTL. The car has been fantastic. I could have bought another car for thousands more and gotten less quality and features.
~alpha
alpha: I did notice the Accord's tires do not grip very well, I am thinking of changing them next year. It happened to me more then twice- My wheels spinning at a green light.
Everything I said about the resale of Alty and M is correct, as alpha1 attested to regarding Alty. The last time I read the data, Alty/Accord/Camry retain 54/52/50% after 5 years.
autospies wrote in its website that M and 5 series are the best at retaining resale value among luxury sedans. Others at the Performance Luxury Sedans forum have since confirmed that. You can scroll back a few pages on that forum and see the discussion. Kelly has to establish resale values for all new cars for leasing purposes. That doesn't mean they're right 100% of the time, but they must have good reason to put M and 5 ahead of the pack.
As I said, if Sonata is in demand, meaning its sales curve is on the upswing, it should retain its value just fine. Domestic cars are another matter. Their supplies tend to outstrip the demands, so probably Fusion resale most likely will suffer.
I picked three closest price match trims from each model. Since the data for 06 Accord isn't available yet, I use the 05 data instead, and let's compare the "True Cost to Own" for 5 years...
06 Sonata GLS 3.3L Auto
Total Cash Price $21,179
Average cost per Mile: $0.49
TCO Price $36,419
05 Accord 2.4L EX Auto
Total Cash Price $21,974
Average cost per Mile: $0.42
TCO Price $31,300
06 camry 2.4L LE Auto
Total Cash Price $21,611
Average cost per Mile: $0.42
TCO Price $31,764
Looks like if you get the Sonata (the cheapest car among them) for now and will end up paying the most after 5 years. $5000 difference between Sonata and Accord is not a small number considering the car only cost just over $20K.
You can huggle prices on Honda and Toyota too, but yes, maybe you can get a Hyundai for a little cheaper, depending on the shopper.
Now for all V6 model comparison:
06 Sonata LX V6 Auto
Total Cash Price $23,079
Average cost per Mile: $0.51
TCO Price $38,014
05 Accord V6 EX Auto
Total Cash Price $25,238
Average cost per Mile: $0.47
TCO Price $35,033
06 camry V6 XLE Auto
Total Cash Price $25,597
Average cost per Mile: $0.49
TCO Price $36,518
Looks like the Sonata is still the most expensive to own which happens to be the cheapest car to buy.
Insurance can be a huge variable depending on where the car is domiciled, age and driving record of drivers, vehicle usage (how many miles to work), total annual miles driven, limits of liability, deductibles, etc. And of course, from one insurance company to another for the selected coverages.
The finance charge obviously is based on X dollars financed at Y %. (X & Y are not explained). If a buyer has $10,000 for a down payment he will be financing $4K less on a car that costs $4K less. If the buyer has $2K for a downpayment he will be financing $8K more than if he had the $10K downpayment.
In some states (unfortunately mine included) municipalities charge property tax on cars. My town's tax rate is $37 per thousand. So, if I have a car assessed at $5K higher, I will pay an extra $185 in property tax in the first year (over .01/mile). Something less each year as the car depreciates (although the tax rate usually increases). Edmunds probably left out this part of the TCO because some states do not charge property tax on cars, AND as in my state, the tax rate varies from town to town. It would be a nightmare for Edmunds to try to keep track of all the various property tax rates,. However, it is an additional cost (for some) that needs to be considered.
Gasoline costs (MPG & cost per gallon) also had to be considered for comparison purposes. Heck, I have no idea what the price per gallon will be for my next fill up, never mind for the next 60 months. If gas cost $3 per gallon, the fuel cost differential between 2 cars will be twice as much as it would be if gas was $1.50 per gallon.
I think the most meaningful figures in the TCO are the estimated depreciation, maintenance and repairs.. Subtract the depreciation from Edmunds TMV to determine the capital cost of cars. To me, this is more meaningful than "resale value." If Brand A sells for $20K and depreciates $12K, it's resale is $8K. If Brand B sells for $25K and depreciates $11K it's resale is $14K. Brand B is worth $6K more after the 5 years, but the buyer paid (& financed $5K more). Figure the finance charges, time value of money and property tax, if applicable, and that $1,000 "gain" could actually cost the buyer money.
Sorry if this is getting too technical. I know some people won't understand (not accusing anyone).
"You picked the closest matched trims? Then why does the Sonata have a V6 while the other two have a 4-cylinder? "
They are the same price that is the exact same comparison that Edmunds made in their comparison when the Sonata came out on top.
You can't have it both ways! You either compare on cost which the Sonata wins or you compare both cars in their loaded V6 form in which the Accord wins?
If you look at any magazine or auto comparison on the Sonata V6 (3.3 ,235 hp) versus the Accords V6 (3.0, 244hp ) you will see that the Sonata V6 engine, which improved, is not at the level of the Honda engine for both performance or mileage! The key factor in true real world mileage appears to be inversely proportional to the engine displacement size
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S.- Did you realize how much the VSC, heated mirrors and LED tailights cost WOW! $1,000
If you want to pick trim levels so that the Accord is guaranteed to win the comparison, go ahead--take the lowest-trim Accord, shoot, make it a '05 vs. a '06 even, as this person did, so take a '05 Accord DX stick shift, and compare it to a '06 Sonata LX and a Camry XLE V6. The Accord will win that one hands-down.
As far as how much VSC costs, it doesn't cost anything extra--if you buy the Sonata.
Note the dual exhaust. That probably means horsepower will be more than 240. This is the car the Sonata will be competing against. Looks much better than the current Camry IMO.
Again, Honda and Toyota are reputable brands, Hyundai was at the bottom and trying to catch up. so a price advantage is expected when comparing to Honda and Toyota. Even comparing all V6 model, Sonata still cost $3000 more to own than the Accord.
But it could go both ways. I believe edmunds used the middle number that would be a good benchmark for average shoppers. It's not perfect but you can get a basic idea how much more/less you will pay out of pocket after 5 years of owning each car, maybe more of less depending on your own situation.
In addition to the grille lifted off the Mazda3s, the tailights bear a resemblence to those on the Sonata. Actually, the rear end looks like a hybrid of the '02-'05 Sonata and the '06 Sonata. Double damages in the lawsuit!!
Two people can buy identical cars from the same dealership on the same day. Yet one buyer might pay $1,000 more than the other. Some period of time later both those cars should be worth the same as used cars, given similar milage and vehicle condition. Assuming depreciation is based on price new minus resale value, the price new has to be constant.
You're correct; pre-'02 Altimas DID have horrific resale, but the newer ones are doing fine. The key difference between Nissan and Hyundai, though, is that Nissan has been building high-quality cars for decades. Hyundai cars still have no track record for quality.