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Comments
You'll get used to it. I've had my Maxima for nearly 3 years now, and you kind of "roll" away from a stop before punching it. That said, the Potenzas may not make it through another Michigan winter. Costco has a sale on Pilot Sport A/Ss this week, and I'm SORELY tempted.. expensive tires though.
350Z: Average
Altima: Average
Armada: Much below average
Frontier: New
Maxima: Above average
Murano: Above average
Pathfinder: New
Quest: Much below average
Sentra: Below average
Titan: Average
Xterra: New
vs. Hyundai:
Accent: Average
Elantra: Above Average
Santa Fe: Above Average
Sonata: New
Tiburon: Below Average
Tucson: New
XG350: Average
So Nissan has three models below average or much below average in predicted reliability, and Hyundai has one--and its niche model at that. It appears Nissan's track record isn't helping it build reliable cars here in the present.
The front end looks like its been disguised a bit, so I wonder exactly how much it will look like the 3. And, we cant see the entire taillamp assembly, so Im not sure how it looks like the Sonatas...
I do like the new Font style of the Camry badge.
~alpha
The problems with the Armada and the Quest are well-documented. Nissan made a colossal blunder when they opened a brand new factory, and then started cranking out two completely new vehicles on top of that.
They shipped out a team of engineers from Japan, fixed the problems, and increased the warranty on these two vehicles. I know all this because my parents bought one of the first "new style" Quests. They have had a couple (minor) problems with it, all taken care of. Someone from Nissan called them and apologized; in addition to the extended warranty, they got a bunch of freebies and junk. My parents are very picky, and they were delighted with how they were treated.
Personally, my Maxima has given me -0- problems in the going-on-3 years I've owned it. It's just as tight as the day I drove it off the lot.
You didn't really address my point that Nissan has decades' worth of building quality cars, and Hyundai is an unknown entity. However, you want everyone to go out and buy a Hyundai, although between them and Kia they are the reigning Lemon Law champions. Go back and search for "Hyundai/Kia lemon law" in Edmunds forums, there is a lemon law attorney that posted here recently with what percentage of Hyundais/Kias he sees roll through his office. It's astonishingly high, especially when you consider the amount of vehicles they sell vs. other manufacturers.
Look, I dig that you love your Hyundai and you think it's the greatest car in the world. However, "facts is facts", and the fact is that Hyundai does not have a track record here for quality automobiles, and the lousy resale to prove it.
So that leaves Ford Fusion out of the running before the race starts.
Now my thoughts Sonata is almost up to par with the current generation of Camry and Honda. However new Accord and New Camry will blow the Sonata away and Hyundai will paly catch-up again if they are able.
Cheers,
MidCow
No, I don't. But I've been pleased with the service I've gotten out of my two Hyundais, I think they are making some very good vehicles within the past five years, and that the '06 Sonata in particular is a great new option in the mid-sized class. So what I hope is that people don't just listen to those who have never owned a late-model Hyundai before, or even driven one, talking about how Hyundai is an "unknown entity", but instead do their research, drive the cars, and make up their own minds.
p.s. The Sonata will be due for a mid-gen redux not long after the next-gen Accord comes out... a good opportunity for some catch-up, eh?
Local dealer's adv (Bridgeport, CT) today had an '05 Sonata GLS with 21K miles listed at $15,999. I bought a "new" '05 GLS Special Value for $16,700 six months ago (but from out of state, not this dealer).
We know the dealer probably didn't allow more than $13,000 for the trade-in value, but look at what the dealer thinks the market will bear on the used car retail lot.
While my Sonata listed at $19,594, after TTL & rebate I was OTD at $17826. My car is just under 4400 miles, so we driven a similar amount. After 5 years the car should still have low mileage and would have a low milage adjustment for trade-in/resale value. If the car serves me well, as I expect, I have no intention of replacing it in 5 years. But, as I've posted before, I've seen nothing to indicate a 5 year old Sonata is a financial bath compared to other cars in its class. First year perhaps. But how do we consider the dealer's adv in todays newspaper? If the dealer gives someone a "deal" by lowering his price by $750 that's still not a hard hit for a car no more than one year old with 21K miles.
P.S. Since I started considering Hyundai, I've become aware of how many Elantra's and Sonatas' are in the suburban Fairfield County area. The mentioned Bridgeport dealership sells most of them.
Sonata's success also partly depends on the rest of Hyundai's lineup, which is still a long way from standards of Nippon 3.
It's indicative no one bothers mentioning Fusion, the other car in the thread's name. Just to show you it is a non factor, never going to be a threat to Camcord.
Most people that follow car manufacturing know that foreign carmakers are partnering with domestic makers quite a bit, and that foreign makers are here on American soil employing American workers, so that argument above is tired and outdated, especially by the late 90's it was outdated.
Hence, and BTW, I'm in the Midwest right now, and pert-near all the cars are Ford's, DCX's and GM's. I'm in South Dakota now, but in Missouri, the last state I lived in, there were more Chevy Cadavaliers than Chuck Berry could ever shake a stick at. Scads of trucks running down I-44 through the middle of Missouri terrorizing the general population and boring, mundane looking Chevy's, Dodge's and Ford's everywhere. The dispersement of cars here in South Dakota is also heavily favoring the domestic models.
With this fierce nationalistic pride fueling car purchases the science of studying how the new Ford Fusion will do becomes mere child's play. The Ford Fusion will sell well here in the Midwest and I think it's bodystyle will be well received by the general American car buying population anywhere in the country.
Ford decided on the Mazda6 for a template with it's 4-wheel multilink suspension. Standard 4-wheel discs and a rigid chassis, along with Mazda6's 2.3L 4-cyl.and 3.0L Duratec V6 powertrains are offered. The V6's variable cams and intake manifold have been tweaked to increase the torque from 192 to 205 pound-feet. Fusion's coming with the V6 come standard with a 6-speed automatic transmission. The 4-cyl.Fusion will get either an automatic tranny or a 5-speed. Eventually the Fusion will be built with All-wheel drive (fall of 2006) and the first hybrid Fusion will hit the marketplace in 2008 sometime.
Apparently the ride is very "poised" with the Fusion absorbing impacts when pushed and not reverberating or producing an aftershock on twisty and bumpy roads. One person described the car's handling attributes to be similar to an Accord's when pushed hard. The difference being that the Fusion acted as though it was egging it's driver to mix it up even more!
The top Fusion model SEL gets 225/50R17 Michelins that grab hard to the road. Side curtain and side impact airbags are optional and there is no stability control offered at all. Ford is claiming "best in class" interior sound levels and passengers are said to be able to talk comfortably at 80 mph in normal "inside voices".
0-60 will take 8.5 seconds, though that is an estimate. 21 city and 29 highway for the 3.0L 221hp DOHC 24-valve V6.
This car is proof that Ford is now willing to answer the Asians in the car market and that they're not going to rely completely on truck and SUV sales to float their Detroit yacht anymore.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
While I acknowledge that the foreign car manufacturers make more of their cars here and that the domestics build cars in Canada or Mexico, or source parts abroad, I believe it is important that we have a domestic automobile industry for a number of reasons:
- Role in economy - The big 2 1/2 still account for a large part of the domestic economy.
- Trade deficit - our trade deficit is out of control and a large source of the deficit is with Japan (though China now dwarfs that amount).
- Value add jobs - The transplants assemble cars here, but their more expensive cars are manufactured in Japan. Also, while they may have some design and engineering in the US, a significantly larger percentage is conducted abroad.
- Ripple effect - other industries rely on domestic companies. For example, the big three advertise more, borrow from domestic lenders, and have a higher percentage of domestic suppliers.
- Pride - why do people support their home sports teams? Shouldn't people feel some of the same pride for their domestic companies as well? Certainly the Japanese, Germans and Koreans do. If they do, why can't Americans. This country was one of the pioneers in the auto industry and it is a shame to see that go by the wayside.
- National security - while manufacturing becomes a smaller percentage of the economy, certain manufacturing should be in the hands of domestic companies just in case. During WWII, a significant percentage of GMs plant was used for the war effort.
- Perception/attitude - some people that own foreign brands I believe look down upon people who choose to buy domestics. Also, the quality gap is narrowing though I acknowledge it still exists (poor management at Ford/GM and ridiculous labor contracts).
1) On the issue of quality. The Consumer Report black&red circles should be used as a guide, unless you've really looked into how they're scored (types of repairs, reporting methods, the real quality difference between the categories...in other words, how many more problems, cost of repair, and the type of problems you'll really have if you buy a car with a black circle instead of a half red circle, etc...). Plus quality in general is only one factor to buying a car. Just because something (washing machine, car, camera, etc) has the highest quality rating however that is defined, doesn't mean it's the "best" item because there are other aspects (function, features, price, etc) that may outweigh any potential quality advantage.
2) Resale value. It always makes me laugh when someone touts the high resale value of their car, and then trades it in every few years at the dealer or spend thousands more for a car that has a higher resale value. So for example if the Camry costs $5K more than the Fusion, even if you lose a few thousand because of the Fusion's lower resale percentage, you've already spent $5K more on the Camry. So you're spending $5K to gain a few thousand $$ on the resale when you sell the car...doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather keep the $5K up front.
The same with the quality issue. You spend an extra $5K on a car to get the better quality, so on the lower quality car, even if you have a couple of thousand dollars more in repairs over the life of owning the car, you're still better off than paying $5K up front.
In my opion you should ignore quality and resale issues in the beginning. First find some cars you like, meet your needs, etc. Then if you find two cars, Sonata & Accord for example, then you can look at the quality & resale issues. If both cars meet your needs the same, then look at price. If the Accord is $5K more ($25K vs $20K) expensive, then you have to decide if that $5K is worth it. If you plan on keeping the car for 10 years, then the difference in resale value may not be that much different (for example if the 10 value of the Accord is 30% of original cost and the Sonata is only 20%, then at 10 years the Accord is worth $7500 & the Sonata $4000, so you lost $17,500 on the Accord and $16,000 on the Sonata, so you tell me which one was cheaper to drive over the 10 year period, especially with the 10 year warranty.
Anyway, more to think about/discuss.
City 23/31 Highway
I realize that newer cars that are getting 33mpg have much more than the 130hp my car has, but is still impressive for a car bought ten years ago this Nov. 16. I maintained 70 miles per hour (around 2900 rpm) and went up and down hills with the cruise set. I am aware that this forum is devoted to new models, but I thought it would be prudent to prove that EPA listed numbers are possible to achieve without going 55 mph.
I had my car fully serviced the day before (new air filter, clean fuel injectors, and all the other basics), and did not run the air conditioner, but did have 4 total passengers. Come on, drivers of new Accords, lets hear 36 mpg!
I wouldn't stereotype all Midwesterner's as driving only Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, and GM vehicles. I live in central Illinois, and in my city, the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Hyundais, etc., not including the Volvo's, M-B, BMW's and Porches, are in very great supply. Sometimes 7 out of 10 vehicles you see are "imports."
My intention was not to step on anyone's toes, or to put down another car, as you have done with mine. I didn't mention (meaning slam) the other cars included in this discussion, nor did I mention the car that you spoke of which happens NOT to be included in the discussion.
My goal was to inform readers of the lasting quality that comes with a Honda. I have no doubt that Ford, Toyota, and Hyundai all are building automobiles of high quality, a couple of them much improved from previous years, obviously making large strides. Why don't I mention the infamous Malibu? I don't want to mention the problems that they have had (lowest numbers on Consumer Reports reliability report on midsize automobiles). This discussion is based on some of the top competitors in the midsize market. The Malibu (now the Classic) is strictly a low-cost fleet market car, now; not a competitor.
By the way, congratulations; one part of the 7-year-younger Malibu caught up with my old circa-1996 lower model Accord.
(Yes, I went above 55 during the break-in period but dealer assured me that it would be OK as long as I didn't go above 4K RPM. 72? MPH =2500 RPM.)
Continued good luck with your car. When you're in the market again, look at a Hyundai. You may still prefer Honda, but you owe it to yourself to see what the competition offers.
~alpha
Sorry I guess I wasn't completely clear. The current 2006 Sonata targeted the older vintage 2003 Accords and Camrys. Both Camry and Accord have current mid-model refreshes that are already ahead of the 2006 Sonata.
The Sonata didn't leap frog the current Accords and Camrys it tried to catch up with the three(3) year old models. To Hyundai's success, they did a good job of matching the 2003 Accords and Camrys features. It just that the target has moved forward and set the bar higher.
Cheers,
MidCow
Buddy of mine is in his early 20s, about your height, and much to my surprise an Altima fit him the best of the cars we checked out. He can barely get into my Maxima.
He ended up with a Mazda 6. He liked the way it drove and looked better than the Altima, though I cringe when I see his knees poking out of the driver's cockpit like he's in some go-cart.
Personally, if I were that tall I'd go domestic all the way. Most Japanese cars don't seem to have as much leg room. I'm 6' on the dot, and the only cars I've owned that I didn't have the seat track all the way back have been my two Oldsmobiles. My Maxima could use a bit more room, but much like my friend and his 6, I'm willing to overlook that particular deficiency because the car is so freakin' nice.
Yep! When the '07 Camrys go on sale next spring, I suspect lonely Hyundai salespeople will be even lonelier. (I'm still not seeing new Sonatas on the road in southern California - historically Hyundai's strongest market. I've counted seven since their June introduction. I've counted eighteen of the refreshened 2006 Accords courtesy of their spiffy-looking rear ends.)
Actually that is not true. Hyundai targeted the Audi A6 and the Lexus ES with their design of the '06 Sonata. Now, that doesn't mean that they see the Sonata as being competition for the A6 and the ES. But those were the targets they used for quality, NVH, and other factors--including exterior styling in the case of the A6.
The mid-gen refresh of the Camry has been out for a couple of years, so it's nothing new and Sonata beats it in a number of ways IMO, including interior & exterior styling, ride & handling, power, and standard safety equipment. The 2006 Accord isn't markedly new either, although it did take care of the Accord's ugly rear end and add some more standard equipment in some trim lines. But nothing really big/new there. Nothing as big, for example, as the last Sonata mid-gen refresh which introduced all-new front and rear styling, plus interior tweaks and engine upgrades.
I don't think the Camry and Accord MMC were that significant. The Sonata seems to have everything the others do, and even more (VSC, etc.).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Cheers,
MidCow
No offense taken. I was born, grew up, and live in sunny, southern California, danf1. In my immediate area (12 mile radius) there're four Hyundai dealerships - Redlands, San Bernardino, Ontario, and Riverside, and at least three KIA dealerships - Fontana, Riverside, and San Bernardino. All these dealerships range at least 40 miles and out to 55 miles from the Los Angeles civic area which holds an even richer bonanza of Hyundai and KIA dealerships. California has been an excellent market for Hyundai and its corporate siblings as their regional sales stats have attested. (If y'all ever make it out this way, I'd be glad to put you and yours up for a week or two so you can see the sights!)
I've seen many 2006 Accords on the road already, (most of them were the color silver actually)
I've only seen a couple 06 Sonata's since they came out, but they do look really nice on the road (love them in black)
My dad drives an 05 EX and my head is close to the roof, but can be maneuvered away by the power seat into a more comfy place.
My next car is likely to be a 2002 Accord LX (long story), and it has lots of headroom (no sunroof of course) and a little more legroom. It also has the height adjustable seat that my 1996 lacks. A lot depends on where you are taller (bear with me). I am long of leg (34-36 inseam), but my torso is not that tall, so headroom is less of an issue than legroom is. I agree that the domestics (the few i've been in) tend to have more seat travel. My friend's 99 Taurus SHO did not have enough legroom for me at all though, I was more comfy in my Accord.(the back seat had much more room behind me than in my Accord).
Anyway, I did some research. What can I say, its October in the auto industry, I've got nothing but time. Out of the top 50 Hyundai dealers in the country, only one is in California and they are ranked #47.
There are 12 in Florida, 7 in New York, 6 in New Jersey, 5 in Pennsylvania and 3 in Ohio and Nevada both. Ca is a tough market for Hyundai.
The 4 top California dealers combined sold less cars in 2004 than one dealer in Nevada, and two in New York individually.
My store dropped last year down to #21 from #18 the previous year.
While I can't dispute the number of dealerships that there are, they don't sell at a very high volume.
Trade in was $2500.. retail at that time was $4500. I'll stick w/Camry's until I trade this one in on a Prius.
kdhspyder
1996 Hyundai Sonata GLS V-6 Retail Value - $3,630
Both cars are identically equipped except for the Hyundai's lack of ABS and a sunroof on the top model, the GLS.
I just put these forward for comparison purposes. You may do your own search for your own zipcode like I did at kbb.com
Hope this helps (someone!)
CR Reliability
Note this is on vehicles of first, second, and third year of design, from the 2000 MY. Hyundai is above the average, with BMW at the bottom of the barrel.
~alpha