alpha: I did notice the Accord's tires do not grip very well, I am thinking of changing them next year. It happened to me more then twice- My wheels spinning at a green light.
You'll get used to it. I've had my Maxima for nearly 3 years now, and you kind of "roll" away from a stop before punching it. That said, the Potenzas may not make it through another Michigan winter. Costco has a sale on Pilot Sport A/Ss this week, and I'm SORELY tempted.. expensive tires though.
Nissan must have slipped, then, in reliability if not in quality. According to CR's predicted reliability scores:
350Z: Average Altima: Average Armada: Much below average Frontier: New Maxima: Above average Murano: Above average Pathfinder: New Quest: Much below average Sentra: Below average Titan: Average Xterra: New
vs. Hyundai:
Accent: Average Elantra: Above Average Santa Fe: Above Average Sonata: New Tiburon: Below Average Tucson: New XG350: Average
So Nissan has three models below average or much below average in predicted reliability, and Hyundai has one--and its niche model at that. It appears Nissan's track record isn't helping it build reliable cars here in the present.
It took me a second to get your comments regarding the paint job, but then I literally just laughed outloud.
The front end looks like its been disguised a bit, so I wonder exactly how much it will look like the 3. And, we cant see the entire taillamp assembly, so Im not sure how it looks like the Sonatas...
It's really the grille that reminds me of the Mazda3s. And the arched character line on the lip of the trunk lid plus the overall styling and taillight shape that reminds me of the Sonatas. The taillights are pretty generic though, so they could remind someone of any number of cars.
Well the Accord's tires are OK in the Summer, but in the winter I usually go up to Canada. I bought winter tires and they work amazingly. The only time I worry is when there's wet weather, the Accord's tires spin at green lights easily even if I roll before the light turns green.
Any word on what Toyota has done with the interior of the upcoming Camry? I rode in a coworker's LE-V6, and it looked like a much cheaper car than it really was. 25k for gray cloth and plastic that is all the same color just looks like a joke. The Sonata is a step-up in design if not necessarily quality, and the Accord has both the quality and the design in its favor with Aluminum and chrome accents and grippy, thick rimmed steering wheel. The Camry didn't set a benchmark in 02 with its interior design, it just matched the 98-2002 Accord, not exceeded it. I hope Toyota gets with it like it did in the Sienna with its Lexus-like interior.
I saw some pictures on the internet a few months ago, someone took a picture of the Camry's interior. It looks something like the Solara's interior (centre console) I'm not sure where the pictures are, I got them from the C&D forums. It looked quite nice actually.
So Nissan has three models below average or much below average in predicted reliability, and Hyundai has one--and its niche model at that. It appears Nissan's track record isn't helping it build reliable cars here in the present.
The problems with the Armada and the Quest are well-documented. Nissan made a colossal blunder when they opened a brand new factory, and then started cranking out two completely new vehicles on top of that.
They shipped out a team of engineers from Japan, fixed the problems, and increased the warranty on these two vehicles. I know all this because my parents bought one of the first "new style" Quests. They have had a couple (minor) problems with it, all taken care of. Someone from Nissan called them and apologized; in addition to the extended warranty, they got a bunch of freebies and junk. My parents are very picky, and they were delighted with how they were treated.
Personally, my Maxima has given me -0- problems in the going-on-3 years I've owned it. It's just as tight as the day I drove it off the lot.
You didn't really address my point that Nissan has decades' worth of building quality cars, and Hyundai is an unknown entity. However, you want everyone to go out and buy a Hyundai, although between them and Kia they are the reigning Lemon Law champions. Go back and search for "Hyundai/Kia lemon law" in Edmunds forums, there is a lemon law attorney that posted here recently with what percentage of Hyundais/Kias he sees roll through his office. It's astonishingly high, especially when you consider the amount of vehicles they sell vs. other manufacturers.
Look, I dig that you love your Hyundai and you think it's the greatest car in the world. However, "facts is facts", and the fact is that Hyundai does not have a track record here for quality automobiles, and the lousy resale to prove it.
Maybe Taurus sghould try copying back some of the Toyota relability. "Better Idea" Ford lost me about 10 years ago with their customer service or lack there of. I was on vacation and had a transmission problem. Was going to be in Florida for a week so I took it to the dealer and rented a car on Sunday. They quoted me $1,000 to fix the transmission and I had a definite scheduled day on Thursday. On tThursday they gave some crap about drivability becuase the plugs weren't Frod plugs so they screwed around Thursday and charged me $273 to change the plugs and run engine diagnostics; nothing found. Now they told me it was a transmisison problem and they could schedule it the following week and it would cost $2,000. In two hours I bought a new car (looking, approval, paperwork,etc.) and drove off never to buy Frod again. Oh yes, I disputed the $273 and the whole delaership treatment, but Ford did nothing.
So that leaves Ford Fusion out of the running before the race starts.
Now my thoughts Sonata is almost up to par with the current generation of Camry and Honda. However new Accord and New Camry will blow the Sonata away and Hyundai will paly catch-up again if they are able.
However, you want everyone to go out and buy a Hyundai, ...
No, I don't. But I've been pleased with the service I've gotten out of my two Hyundais, I think they are making some very good vehicles within the past five years, and that the '06 Sonata in particular is a great new option in the mid-sized class. So what I hope is that people don't just listen to those who have never owned a late-model Hyundai before, or even driven one, talking about how Hyundai is an "unknown entity", but instead do their research, drive the cars, and make up their own minds.
Of course the new Accord and Camry should leap-frog the "old" '06 Sonata--that's what competition is all about. After the '06 Sonata, though, I am surprised you doubt Hyundai's ability to once again catch up to and even surpass new offerings from their competitors.
p.s. The Sonata will be due for a mid-gen redux not long after the next-gen Accord comes out... a good opportunity for some catch-up, eh?
I own an '03 Sonata V6. Guess what? Although I haven't suffered anywhere near the degree of mechanical problems some Hyundai owners have (no doubt due to my conservative driving style, meticulous maintenance habits, and the fact that after two years and ten months of ownership I still only have 16,189 miles on the car), I agree with just about everything you posted. Providing the car continues relatively trouble-free through late 2008, I'm quite aware I'll take a drenching financial bath when I sell it. (Trade it instead? Yeah, right...)
Local dealer's adv (Bridgeport, CT) today had an '05 Sonata GLS with 21K miles listed at $15,999. I bought a "new" '05 GLS Special Value for $16,700 six months ago (but from out of state, not this dealer).
We know the dealer probably didn't allow more than $13,000 for the trade-in value, but look at what the dealer thinks the market will bear on the used car retail lot.
While my Sonata listed at $19,594, after TTL & rebate I was OTD at $17826. My car is just under 4400 miles, so we driven a similar amount. After 5 years the car should still have low mileage and would have a low milage adjustment for trade-in/resale value. If the car serves me well, as I expect, I have no intention of replacing it in 5 years. But, as I've posted before, I've seen nothing to indicate a 5 year old Sonata is a financial bath compared to other cars in its class. First year perhaps. But how do we consider the dealer's adv in todays newspaper? If the dealer gives someone a "deal" by lowering his price by $750 that's still not a hard hit for a car no more than one year old with 21K miles.
P.S. Since I started considering Hyundai, I've become aware of how many Elantra's and Sonatas' are in the suburban Fairfield County area. The mentioned Bridgeport dealership sells most of them.
Why are Sonatas among the least stolen cars? Not that that's a bad thing for owners' peace of mind, but it does pinpoint focus their general desirability in the public's mind.
Or could it be that most cars are stolen for parts, so the most frequently stolen cars are those with A) the greatest sales volume, and/or the most expensive parts?
Yes, Hyundai rep now is not as good as the Nippon 3. But I'd argue it's better than Nissan's before Ghosn began rebuilding Nissan, which was only 4, 5 years ago. But I think it will take more than 4, 5 yrs for Sonata to be among leaders of the class.
Sonata's success also partly depends on the rest of Hyundai's lineup, which is still a long way from standards of Nippon 3.
It's indicative no one bothers mentioning Fusion, the other car in the thread's name. Just to show you it is a non factor, never going to be a threat to Camcord.
I don't personally put the Ford Fusion on a par with the other three here, but remember that there are still a lot of people who are clinging to this outdated mode of thinking that "Americans should be buying American cars made by Americans."
Most people that follow car manufacturing know that foreign carmakers are partnering with domestic makers quite a bit, and that foreign makers are here on American soil employing American workers, so that argument above is tired and outdated, especially by the late 90's it was outdated.
Hence, and BTW, I'm in the Midwest right now, and pert-near all the cars are Ford's, DCX's and GM's. I'm in South Dakota now, but in Missouri, the last state I lived in, there were more Chevy Cadavaliers than Chuck Berry could ever shake a stick at. Scads of trucks running down I-44 through the middle of Missouri terrorizing the general population and boring, mundane looking Chevy's, Dodge's and Ford's everywhere. The dispersement of cars here in South Dakota is also heavily favoring the domestic models.
With this fierce nationalistic pride fueling car purchases the science of studying how the new Ford Fusion will do becomes mere child's play. The Ford Fusion will sell well here in the Midwest and I think it's bodystyle will be well received by the general American car buying population anywhere in the country.
Ford decided on the Mazda6 for a template with it's 4-wheel multilink suspension. Standard 4-wheel discs and a rigid chassis, along with Mazda6's 2.3L 4-cyl.and 3.0L Duratec V6 powertrains are offered. The V6's variable cams and intake manifold have been tweaked to increase the torque from 192 to 205 pound-feet. Fusion's coming with the V6 come standard with a 6-speed automatic transmission. The 4-cyl.Fusion will get either an automatic tranny or a 5-speed. Eventually the Fusion will be built with All-wheel drive (fall of 2006) and the first hybrid Fusion will hit the marketplace in 2008 sometime.
Apparently the ride is very "poised" with the Fusion absorbing impacts when pushed and not reverberating or producing an aftershock on twisty and bumpy roads. One person described the car's handling attributes to be similar to an Accord's when pushed hard. The difference being that the Fusion acted as though it was egging it's driver to mix it up even more!
The top Fusion model SEL gets 225/50R17 Michelins that grab hard to the road. Side curtain and side impact airbags are optional and there is no stability control offered at all. Ford is claiming "best in class" interior sound levels and passengers are said to be able to talk comfortably at 80 mph in normal "inside voices".
0-60 will take 8.5 seconds, though that is an estimate. 21 city and 29 highway for the 3.0L 221hp DOHC 24-valve V6.
This car is proof that Ford is now willing to answer the Asians in the car market and that they're not going to rely completely on truck and SUV sales to float their Detroit yacht anymore.
I don't understand why trying to support the domestic car manufacturers is outdated. I live in central New Jersey and feel like I live in a Toyota/Honda dealership parking lot. I find this boring.
While I acknowledge that the foreign car manufacturers make more of their cars here and that the domestics build cars in Canada or Mexico, or source parts abroad, I believe it is important that we have a domestic automobile industry for a number of reasons:
- Role in economy - The big 2 1/2 still account for a large part of the domestic economy. - Trade deficit - our trade deficit is out of control and a large source of the deficit is with Japan (though China now dwarfs that amount). - Value add jobs - The transplants assemble cars here, but their more expensive cars are manufactured in Japan. Also, while they may have some design and engineering in the US, a significantly larger percentage is conducted abroad. - Ripple effect - other industries rely on domestic companies. For example, the big three advertise more, borrow from domestic lenders, and have a higher percentage of domestic suppliers. - Pride - why do people support their home sports teams? Shouldn't people feel some of the same pride for their domestic companies as well? Certainly the Japanese, Germans and Koreans do. If they do, why can't Americans. This country was one of the pioneers in the auto industry and it is a shame to see that go by the wayside. - National security - while manufacturing becomes a smaller percentage of the economy, certain manufacturing should be in the hands of domestic companies just in case. During WWII, a significant percentage of GMs plant was used for the war effort. - Perception/attitude - some people that own foreign brands I believe look down upon people who choose to buy domestics. Also, the quality gap is narrowing though I acknowledge it still exists (poor management at Ford/GM and ridiculous labor contracts).
1) On the issue of quality. The Consumer Report black&red circles should be used as a guide, unless you've really looked into how they're scored (types of repairs, reporting methods, the real quality difference between the categories...in other words, how many more problems, cost of repair, and the type of problems you'll really have if you buy a car with a black circle instead of a half red circle, etc...). Plus quality in general is only one factor to buying a car. Just because something (washing machine, car, camera, etc) has the highest quality rating however that is defined, doesn't mean it's the "best" item because there are other aspects (function, features, price, etc) that may outweigh any potential quality advantage.
2) Resale value. It always makes me laugh when someone touts the high resale value of their car, and then trades it in every few years at the dealer or spend thousands more for a car that has a higher resale value. So for example if the Camry costs $5K more than the Fusion, even if you lose a few thousand because of the Fusion's lower resale percentage, you've already spent $5K more on the Camry. So you're spending $5K to gain a few thousand $$ on the resale when you sell the car...doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather keep the $5K up front.
The same with the quality issue. You spend an extra $5K on a car to get the better quality, so on the lower quality car, even if you have a couple of thousand dollars more in repairs over the life of owning the car, you're still better off than paying $5K up front.
In my opion you should ignore quality and resale issues in the beginning. First find some cars you like, meet your needs, etc. Then if you find two cars, Sonata & Accord for example, then you can look at the quality & resale issues. If both cars meet your needs the same, then look at price. If the Accord is $5K more ($25K vs $20K) expensive, then you have to decide if that $5K is worth it. If you plan on keeping the car for 10 years, then the difference in resale value may not be that much different (for example if the 10 value of the Accord is 30% of original cost and the Sonata is only 20%, then at 10 years the Accord is worth $7500 & the Sonata $4000, so you lost $17,500 on the Accord and $16,000 on the Sonata, so you tell me which one was cheaper to drive over the 10 year period, especially with the 10 year warranty.
I think it's a little early to dismiss the Fusion vs. the others in its class. I have read glowing reviews of it in some car mags, with praise for its fit/finish, ride, and handling. The reviews also raved about its exterior styling, which personally I am not fond of, but styling is subjective. It's priced competitively also, just a little over the Sonata when comparably equipped. It could turn out to be the best domestic car in its class and right up there with the Asian makes. At least, it offers another alternative to someone who wants a good midsized car at a good price.
Let us face it. The only way the FUSION will be competitive is if FORD has the intelligence of pricing it below the CAMCORDS. This car will not sell very well if FORD really thinks it can charge people the same as a Camry or Accord. In fact the SONATA is probably a better buy than the FUSION at this point anyway. But I am sure FORD would eventually have to resort to Employee Pricing to move their excess product off the lots. Just a guess at this point but it could very well happen.
It's a good thing Hyundai keeps its pricing well below the CAMCORDS. I don't think the Sonata would be doing as well in sales if it was in the same price range as the CAMCORDS. This of coarse will probably change years down the road if Hyundai continues to improve its quality and image...then they may be able to command CAMCORD prices. Okay let me have it
jmo. there is a good built in market for ford based on buyers who had good luck with their taurus'. the camcord cars have had quality issues as they have ramped their numbers up. check any problem thread here on edmunds. i think the fusion will do really well, if ford can make any money on it.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
If the Fusion isn't a winner for Ford, I not sure what product could be a winner for them. Ford took a great platform from Mazda, enlarged it somewhat, and gave it a look that strikes a nice balance between modern and retro styling. If it proves to be reliable, it will be a legitimate player in the midsize market. I do wish that Ford would make the Side Curtains standard though. It's a good time to be in the market for a new midsizer, with the new Camry on the way, the new Sonata out and a much improved looking Accord.
This isn't directly related to the discussion, but it is close enough IMO.I just returned from my trip to Huntsville, AL (space and rocket center) back in Birmingham now. I filled up my car and was pleasantly surprised with my 33 miles to the gallon that I got! The window sticker for my 1996 Accord LX Auto (with 152,000 miles, mind you) reads as follows :
City 23/31 Highway
I realize that newer cars that are getting 33mpg have much more than the 130hp my car has, but is still impressive for a car bought ten years ago this Nov. 16. I maintained 70 miles per hour (around 2900 rpm) and went up and down hills with the cruise set. I am aware that this forum is devoted to new models, but I thought it would be prudent to prove that EPA listed numbers are possible to achieve without going 55 mph.
I had my car fully serviced the day before (new air filter, clean fuel injectors, and all the other basics), and did not run the air conditioner, but did have 4 total passengers. Come on, drivers of new Accords, lets hear 36 mpg!
eluvmysephia1 wrote: "Hence, and BTW, I'm in the Midwest right now, and pert-near all the cars are Ford's, DCX's and GM's"
I wouldn't stereotype all Midwesterner's as driving only Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, and GM vehicles. I live in central Illinois, and in my city, the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Hyundais, etc., not including the Volvo's, M-B, BMW's and Porches, are in very great supply. Sometimes 7 out of 10 vehicles you see are "imports."
my 75 year old mothers '03 malibu averages 33 mpg at 75 mph. nobody is impressed. ok, the malibu is rated at 33 mpg highway. guess it is an underachiever compared to an accord.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Pardon me for bothering with something that pertained to the subject. The Accord is involved in this discussion, the Malibu is not. My goal wasn't to impress you, so as far as failing to do so, not my problem. IMO it isn't a great feat to be able to reach EPA numbers, or exceed them, but to me it IS impressive that after over one-hundred and fifty thousand miles a car remains as efficient as it was ten years ago. Not all cars can say the same thing.
My intention was not to step on anyone's toes, or to put down another car, as you have done with mine. I didn't mention (meaning slam) the other cars included in this discussion, nor did I mention the car that you spoke of which happens NOT to be included in the discussion.
My goal was to inform readers of the lasting quality that comes with a Honda. I have no doubt that Ford, Toyota, and Hyundai all are building automobiles of high quality, a couple of them much improved from previous years, obviously making large strides. Why don't I mention the infamous Malibu? I don't want to mention the problems that they have had (lowest numbers on Consumer Reports reliability report on midsize automobiles). This discussion is based on some of the top competitors in the midsize market. The Malibu (now the Classic) is strictly a low-cost fleet market car, now; not a competitor.
By the way, congratulations; one part of the 7-year-younger Malibu caught up with my old circa-1996 lower model Accord.
Well put, thegraduate. I drove my '05 Sonata, 6 Cyl, from FL to CT with only 28 miles on it at the start of the trip, i.e. not broken in. With the cruise a tad above 70 most of the way I got 28 MPG while the car is EPA rated at 27 Hwy.
(Yes, I went above 55 during the break-in period but dealer assured me that it would be OK as long as I didn't go above 4K RPM. 72? MPH =2500 RPM.)
Continued good luck with your car. When you're in the market again, look at a Hyundai. You may still prefer Honda, but you owe it to yourself to see what the competition offers.
Thank you, bhmr59. I'm pretty young to be in the market for a mid/full size car, but I'm 6'5", so a spacious car means more to me than most young guys. I've window shopped Hyundais and Accords (personally, the new Sonata is much better looking than the 03-05 Accord, but equal with the 06). Thanks for the invite to Hyundai, believe me, with all that interior room, its a contender when that 200,000 mile mark rolls around. I wouldn't be surprised to see you shopping at 200,000 miles on your 05 Sonata, with the strides made in quality within that company!
I agree that Hyundai has to keep the Sonata priced below the Camcords for the time being--and that is where the prices are right now. The reason for this is not so much actual quality disparity any more, but because of two things: 1) general public perception that Hyundai is significantly lower qualilty than Honda or Toyota, and 2) (related to 1) higher depreciation for Hyundais in general in the first few years of ownership vs. Honda and Toyota. The lower starting price mitigates the depreciation issue, also the quality perception issue ("It costs a lot less, so I can accept lower quality.") It will take a few years I think for public perception, and resale values, to catch up to where Hyundai really is with respect to quality and reliability compared to Honda and Toyota. The '06 Sonata is a big step in that direction, and the new Accent, Azera, Santa Fe, and Elantra that are coming on line in the next year will help also. Note that starting with the '06 Sonata, Hyundai has been ratcheting their prices up. Still less than the Camcord, but more than the previous Sonata was. They will continue that trend with the Accent this fall and undoubtedly also with their new rollouts next year.
If the qualilty holds up, the resale value will improve. When I bought my '05 six months ago, I took the bet that resale will be better in a few years as result of Hyundai improvements since (at least) 2000. As more people realize the better new cars, the used car values will also increase...but I plan to keep mine for at least 10 years, so resale doesn't mean much to me.
guess my post was kind of vague. i meant nobody is impressed with the malibu, altthough it can easily reach the epa highway rating. i figured the malibu is at least as relevant as a 10 year old accord to this discusssion. :confuse:
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
The Hyundai has the most content and bang for the buck. Build quality is excellent and your'e getting an excellent warranty. You're also paying less than the other cars. You also can get stability control. I have no idea why Honda doesn't offer it yet in the Accord. The Hyundai for 06 is really sharp and elegant looking. The Accord and Camry and just plain boring to look at. Yeah.. they're pretty bulletproof, but for the bucks saved and the add'l warranty, I'd go with the Hyundai.
I'd choose the Hyundai over the Camry, it would be a tougher call with the Accord. Also, please do note that all Accord V6s have Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) standard for the 2006 model year.
Sorry I guess I wasn't completely clear. The current 2006 Sonata targeted the older vintage 2003 Accords and Camrys. Both Camry and Accord have current mid-model refreshes that are already ahead of the 2006 Sonata.
The Sonata didn't leap frog the current Accords and Camrys it tried to catch up with the three(3) year old models. To Hyundai's success, they did a good job of matching the 2003 Accords and Camrys features. It just that the target has moved forward and set the bar higher.
Thank you, bhmr59. I'm pretty young to be in the market for a mid/full size car, but I'm 6'5", so a spacious car means more to me than most young guys. I've window shopped Hyundais and Accords (personally, the new Sonata is much better looking than the 03-05 Accord, but equal with the 06).
Buddy of mine is in his early 20s, about your height, and much to my surprise an Altima fit him the best of the cars we checked out. He can barely get into my Maxima.
He ended up with a Mazda 6. He liked the way it drove and looked better than the Altima, though I cringe when I see his knees poking out of the driver's cockpit like he's in some go-cart.
Personally, if I were that tall I'd go domestic all the way. Most Japanese cars don't seem to have as much leg room. I'm 6' on the dot, and the only cars I've owned that I didn't have the seat track all the way back have been my two Oldsmobiles. My Maxima could use a bit more room, but much like my friend and his 6, I'm willing to overlook that particular deficiency because the car is so freakin' nice.
"It just that the target has moved forward and set the bar higher."
Yep! When the '07 Camrys go on sale next spring, I suspect lonely Hyundai salespeople will be even lonelier. (I'm still not seeing new Sonatas on the road in southern California - historically Hyundai's strongest market. I've counted seven since their June introduction. I've counted eighteen of the refreshened 2006 Accords courtesy of their spiffy-looking rear ends.)
The current 2006 Sonata targeted the older vintage 2003 Accords and Camrys.
Actually that is not true. Hyundai targeted the Audi A6 and the Lexus ES with their design of the '06 Sonata. Now, that doesn't mean that they see the Sonata as being competition for the A6 and the ES. But those were the targets they used for quality, NVH, and other factors--including exterior styling in the case of the A6.
The mid-gen refresh of the Camry has been out for a couple of years, so it's nothing new and Sonata beats it in a number of ways IMO, including interior & exterior styling, ride & handling, power, and standard safety equipment. The 2006 Accord isn't markedly new either, although it did take care of the Accord's ugly rear end and add some more standard equipment in some trim lines. But nothing really big/new there. Nothing as big, for example, as the last Sonata mid-gen refresh which introduced all-new front and rear styling, plus interior tweaks and engine upgrades.
California is not a good market for Hyundai's. New York state is by far their best selling market. They are frustrated that they cannot make any inroads in CA. To the point where they begged the biggest New York dealer to open a store there and see if he could turn it around. So far it hasn't worked for him either. Maybe there is just a little too much status to keep up with in SoCal. I don't know, I've never been there so please don't take that personally, its just a theory.
I have a 6'6" nephew who bought a Focus 'cause it fit. I have a 6'3" neighbor who bought the LX because it didn't have a sunroof and fit. I am only 6' and the EX fits me fine
"California is not a good market for Hyundai's. ... I've never been there so please don't take that personally, its just a theory."
No offense taken. I was born, grew up, and live in sunny, southern California, danf1. In my immediate area (12 mile radius) there're four Hyundai dealerships - Redlands, San Bernardino, Ontario, and Riverside, and at least three KIA dealerships - Fontana, Riverside, and San Bernardino. All these dealerships range at least 40 miles and out to 55 miles from the Los Angeles civic area which holds an even richer bonanza of Hyundai and KIA dealerships. California has been an excellent market for Hyundai and its corporate siblings as their regional sales stats have attested. (If y'all ever make it out this way, I'd be glad to put you and yours up for a week or two so you can see the sights!)
I've counted eighteen of the refreshened 2006 Accords courtesy of their spiffy-looking rear ends.) I've seen many 2006 Accords on the road already, (most of them were the color silver actually) I've only seen a couple 06 Sonata's since they came out, but they do look really nice on the road (love them in black)
I drive a 96 LX and have lots of headroom...legroom is a differnt story
My dad drives an 05 EX and my head is close to the roof, but can be maneuvered away by the power seat into a more comfy place.
My next car is likely to be a 2002 Accord LX (long story), and it has lots of headroom (no sunroof of course) and a little more legroom. It also has the height adjustable seat that my 1996 lacks. A lot depends on where you are taller (bear with me). I am long of leg (34-36 inseam), but my torso is not that tall, so headroom is less of an issue than legroom is. I agree that the domestics (the few i've been in) tend to have more seat travel. My friend's 99 Taurus SHO did not have enough legroom for me at all though, I was more comfy in my Accord.(the back seat had much more room behind me than in my Accord).
Thanks for the invite. I didn't tell you that I have a photographic memory so when I show up in a few years don't be surprised>
Anyway, I did some research. What can I say, its October in the auto industry, I've got nothing but time. Out of the top 50 Hyundai dealers in the country, only one is in California and they are ranked #47.
There are 12 in Florida, 7 in New York, 6 in New Jersey, 5 in Pennsylvania and 3 in Ohio and Nevada both. Ca is a tough market for Hyundai.
The 4 top California dealers combined sold less cars in 2004 than one dealer in Nevada, and two in New York individually.
My store dropped last year down to #21 from #18 the previous year.
While I can't dispute the number of dealerships that there are, they don't sell at a very high volume.
I drive 45K mi / yr, mainly Camry's. My last was a 97 LE 4c w/ leather/SR that I bought used w/ 51K miles on it. I added 130K mi in 3 yrs and TRADED it with 185K miles in order to get a 2000 CE w/ 36K mi. Trade in was $2500.. retail at that time was $4500. I'll stick w/Camry's until I trade this one in on a Prius.
Note this is on vehicles of first, second, and third year of design, from the 2000 MY. Hyundai is above the average, with BMW at the bottom of the barrel. ~alpha
Comments
You'll get used to it. I've had my Maxima for nearly 3 years now, and you kind of "roll" away from a stop before punching it. That said, the Potenzas may not make it through another Michigan winter. Costco has a sale on Pilot Sport A/Ss this week, and I'm SORELY tempted.. expensive tires though.
350Z: Average
Altima: Average
Armada: Much below average
Frontier: New
Maxima: Above average
Murano: Above average
Pathfinder: New
Quest: Much below average
Sentra: Below average
Titan: Average
Xterra: New
vs. Hyundai:
Accent: Average
Elantra: Above Average
Santa Fe: Above Average
Sonata: New
Tiburon: Below Average
Tucson: New
XG350: Average
So Nissan has three models below average or much below average in predicted reliability, and Hyundai has one--and its niche model at that. It appears Nissan's track record isn't helping it build reliable cars here in the present.
The front end looks like its been disguised a bit, so I wonder exactly how much it will look like the 3. And, we cant see the entire taillamp assembly, so Im not sure how it looks like the Sonatas...
I do like the new Font style of the Camry badge.
~alpha
The problems with the Armada and the Quest are well-documented. Nissan made a colossal blunder when they opened a brand new factory, and then started cranking out two completely new vehicles on top of that.
They shipped out a team of engineers from Japan, fixed the problems, and increased the warranty on these two vehicles. I know all this because my parents bought one of the first "new style" Quests. They have had a couple (minor) problems with it, all taken care of. Someone from Nissan called them and apologized; in addition to the extended warranty, they got a bunch of freebies and junk. My parents are very picky, and they were delighted with how they were treated.
Personally, my Maxima has given me -0- problems in the going-on-3 years I've owned it. It's just as tight as the day I drove it off the lot.
You didn't really address my point that Nissan has decades' worth of building quality cars, and Hyundai is an unknown entity. However, you want everyone to go out and buy a Hyundai, although between them and Kia they are the reigning Lemon Law champions. Go back and search for "Hyundai/Kia lemon law" in Edmunds forums, there is a lemon law attorney that posted here recently with what percentage of Hyundais/Kias he sees roll through his office. It's astonishingly high, especially when you consider the amount of vehicles they sell vs. other manufacturers.
Look, I dig that you love your Hyundai and you think it's the greatest car in the world. However, "facts is facts", and the fact is that Hyundai does not have a track record here for quality automobiles, and the lousy resale to prove it.
So that leaves Ford Fusion out of the running before the race starts.
Now my thoughts Sonata is almost up to par with the current generation of Camry and Honda. However new Accord and New Camry will blow the Sonata away and Hyundai will paly catch-up again if they are able.
Cheers,
MidCow
No, I don't. But I've been pleased with the service I've gotten out of my two Hyundais, I think they are making some very good vehicles within the past five years, and that the '06 Sonata in particular is a great new option in the mid-sized class. So what I hope is that people don't just listen to those who have never owned a late-model Hyundai before, or even driven one, talking about how Hyundai is an "unknown entity", but instead do their research, drive the cars, and make up their own minds.
p.s. The Sonata will be due for a mid-gen redux not long after the next-gen Accord comes out... a good opportunity for some catch-up, eh?
Local dealer's adv (Bridgeport, CT) today had an '05 Sonata GLS with 21K miles listed at $15,999. I bought a "new" '05 GLS Special Value for $16,700 six months ago (but from out of state, not this dealer).
We know the dealer probably didn't allow more than $13,000 for the trade-in value, but look at what the dealer thinks the market will bear on the used car retail lot.
While my Sonata listed at $19,594, after TTL & rebate I was OTD at $17826. My car is just under 4400 miles, so we driven a similar amount. After 5 years the car should still have low mileage and would have a low milage adjustment for trade-in/resale value. If the car serves me well, as I expect, I have no intention of replacing it in 5 years. But, as I've posted before, I've seen nothing to indicate a 5 year old Sonata is a financial bath compared to other cars in its class. First year perhaps. But how do we consider the dealer's adv in todays newspaper? If the dealer gives someone a "deal" by lowering his price by $750 that's still not a hard hit for a car no more than one year old with 21K miles.
P.S. Since I started considering Hyundai, I've become aware of how many Elantra's and Sonatas' are in the suburban Fairfield County area. The mentioned Bridgeport dealership sells most of them.
Sonata's success also partly depends on the rest of Hyundai's lineup, which is still a long way from standards of Nippon 3.
It's indicative no one bothers mentioning Fusion, the other car in the thread's name. Just to show you it is a non factor, never going to be a threat to Camcord.
Most people that follow car manufacturing know that foreign carmakers are partnering with domestic makers quite a bit, and that foreign makers are here on American soil employing American workers, so that argument above is tired and outdated, especially by the late 90's it was outdated.
Hence, and BTW, I'm in the Midwest right now, and pert-near all the cars are Ford's, DCX's and GM's. I'm in South Dakota now, but in Missouri, the last state I lived in, there were more Chevy Cadavaliers than Chuck Berry could ever shake a stick at. Scads of trucks running down I-44 through the middle of Missouri terrorizing the general population and boring, mundane looking Chevy's, Dodge's and Ford's everywhere. The dispersement of cars here in South Dakota is also heavily favoring the domestic models.
With this fierce nationalistic pride fueling car purchases the science of studying how the new Ford Fusion will do becomes mere child's play. The Ford Fusion will sell well here in the Midwest and I think it's bodystyle will be well received by the general American car buying population anywhere in the country.
Ford decided on the Mazda6 for a template with it's 4-wheel multilink suspension. Standard 4-wheel discs and a rigid chassis, along with Mazda6's 2.3L 4-cyl.and 3.0L Duratec V6 powertrains are offered. The V6's variable cams and intake manifold have been tweaked to increase the torque from 192 to 205 pound-feet. Fusion's coming with the V6 come standard with a 6-speed automatic transmission. The 4-cyl.Fusion will get either an automatic tranny or a 5-speed. Eventually the Fusion will be built with All-wheel drive (fall of 2006) and the first hybrid Fusion will hit the marketplace in 2008 sometime.
Apparently the ride is very "poised" with the Fusion absorbing impacts when pushed and not reverberating or producing an aftershock on twisty and bumpy roads. One person described the car's handling attributes to be similar to an Accord's when pushed hard. The difference being that the Fusion acted as though it was egging it's driver to mix it up even more!
The top Fusion model SEL gets 225/50R17 Michelins that grab hard to the road. Side curtain and side impact airbags are optional and there is no stability control offered at all. Ford is claiming "best in class" interior sound levels and passengers are said to be able to talk comfortably at 80 mph in normal "inside voices".
0-60 will take 8.5 seconds, though that is an estimate. 21 city and 29 highway for the 3.0L 221hp DOHC 24-valve V6.
This car is proof that Ford is now willing to answer the Asians in the car market and that they're not going to rely completely on truck and SUV sales to float their Detroit yacht anymore.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
While I acknowledge that the foreign car manufacturers make more of their cars here and that the domestics build cars in Canada or Mexico, or source parts abroad, I believe it is important that we have a domestic automobile industry for a number of reasons:
- Role in economy - The big 2 1/2 still account for a large part of the domestic economy.
- Trade deficit - our trade deficit is out of control and a large source of the deficit is with Japan (though China now dwarfs that amount).
- Value add jobs - The transplants assemble cars here, but their more expensive cars are manufactured in Japan. Also, while they may have some design and engineering in the US, a significantly larger percentage is conducted abroad.
- Ripple effect - other industries rely on domestic companies. For example, the big three advertise more, borrow from domestic lenders, and have a higher percentage of domestic suppliers.
- Pride - why do people support their home sports teams? Shouldn't people feel some of the same pride for their domestic companies as well? Certainly the Japanese, Germans and Koreans do. If they do, why can't Americans. This country was one of the pioneers in the auto industry and it is a shame to see that go by the wayside.
- National security - while manufacturing becomes a smaller percentage of the economy, certain manufacturing should be in the hands of domestic companies just in case. During WWII, a significant percentage of GMs plant was used for the war effort.
- Perception/attitude - some people that own foreign brands I believe look down upon people who choose to buy domestics. Also, the quality gap is narrowing though I acknowledge it still exists (poor management at Ford/GM and ridiculous labor contracts).
1) On the issue of quality. The Consumer Report black&red circles should be used as a guide, unless you've really looked into how they're scored (types of repairs, reporting methods, the real quality difference between the categories...in other words, how many more problems, cost of repair, and the type of problems you'll really have if you buy a car with a black circle instead of a half red circle, etc...). Plus quality in general is only one factor to buying a car. Just because something (washing machine, car, camera, etc) has the highest quality rating however that is defined, doesn't mean it's the "best" item because there are other aspects (function, features, price, etc) that may outweigh any potential quality advantage.
2) Resale value. It always makes me laugh when someone touts the high resale value of their car, and then trades it in every few years at the dealer or spend thousands more for a car that has a higher resale value. So for example if the Camry costs $5K more than the Fusion, even if you lose a few thousand because of the Fusion's lower resale percentage, you've already spent $5K more on the Camry. So you're spending $5K to gain a few thousand $$ on the resale when you sell the car...doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather keep the $5K up front.
The same with the quality issue. You spend an extra $5K on a car to get the better quality, so on the lower quality car, even if you have a couple of thousand dollars more in repairs over the life of owning the car, you're still better off than paying $5K up front.
In my opion you should ignore quality and resale issues in the beginning. First find some cars you like, meet your needs, etc. Then if you find two cars, Sonata & Accord for example, then you can look at the quality & resale issues. If both cars meet your needs the same, then look at price. If the Accord is $5K more ($25K vs $20K) expensive, then you have to decide if that $5K is worth it. If you plan on keeping the car for 10 years, then the difference in resale value may not be that much different (for example if the 10 value of the Accord is 30% of original cost and the Sonata is only 20%, then at 10 years the Accord is worth $7500 & the Sonata $4000, so you lost $17,500 on the Accord and $16,000 on the Sonata, so you tell me which one was cheaper to drive over the 10 year period, especially with the 10 year warranty.
Anyway, more to think about/discuss.
City 23/31 Highway
I realize that newer cars that are getting 33mpg have much more than the 130hp my car has, but is still impressive for a car bought ten years ago this Nov. 16. I maintained 70 miles per hour (around 2900 rpm) and went up and down hills with the cruise set. I am aware that this forum is devoted to new models, but I thought it would be prudent to prove that EPA listed numbers are possible to achieve without going 55 mph.
I had my car fully serviced the day before (new air filter, clean fuel injectors, and all the other basics), and did not run the air conditioner, but did have 4 total passengers. Come on, drivers of new Accords, lets hear 36 mpg!
I wouldn't stereotype all Midwesterner's as driving only Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, and GM vehicles. I live in central Illinois, and in my city, the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Hyundais, etc., not including the Volvo's, M-B, BMW's and Porches, are in very great supply. Sometimes 7 out of 10 vehicles you see are "imports."
My intention was not to step on anyone's toes, or to put down another car, as you have done with mine. I didn't mention (meaning slam) the other cars included in this discussion, nor did I mention the car that you spoke of which happens NOT to be included in the discussion.
My goal was to inform readers of the lasting quality that comes with a Honda. I have no doubt that Ford, Toyota, and Hyundai all are building automobiles of high quality, a couple of them much improved from previous years, obviously making large strides. Why don't I mention the infamous Malibu? I don't want to mention the problems that they have had (lowest numbers on Consumer Reports reliability report on midsize automobiles). This discussion is based on some of the top competitors in the midsize market. The Malibu (now the Classic) is strictly a low-cost fleet market car, now; not a competitor.
By the way, congratulations; one part of the 7-year-younger Malibu caught up with my old circa-1996 lower model Accord.
(Yes, I went above 55 during the break-in period but dealer assured me that it would be OK as long as I didn't go above 4K RPM. 72? MPH =2500 RPM.)
Continued good luck with your car. When you're in the market again, look at a Hyundai. You may still prefer Honda, but you owe it to yourself to see what the competition offers.
~alpha
Sorry I guess I wasn't completely clear. The current 2006 Sonata targeted the older vintage 2003 Accords and Camrys. Both Camry and Accord have current mid-model refreshes that are already ahead of the 2006 Sonata.
The Sonata didn't leap frog the current Accords and Camrys it tried to catch up with the three(3) year old models. To Hyundai's success, they did a good job of matching the 2003 Accords and Camrys features. It just that the target has moved forward and set the bar higher.
Cheers,
MidCow
Buddy of mine is in his early 20s, about your height, and much to my surprise an Altima fit him the best of the cars we checked out. He can barely get into my Maxima.
He ended up with a Mazda 6. He liked the way it drove and looked better than the Altima, though I cringe when I see his knees poking out of the driver's cockpit like he's in some go-cart.
Personally, if I were that tall I'd go domestic all the way. Most Japanese cars don't seem to have as much leg room. I'm 6' on the dot, and the only cars I've owned that I didn't have the seat track all the way back have been my two Oldsmobiles. My Maxima could use a bit more room, but much like my friend and his 6, I'm willing to overlook that particular deficiency because the car is so freakin' nice.
Yep! When the '07 Camrys go on sale next spring, I suspect lonely Hyundai salespeople will be even lonelier. (I'm still not seeing new Sonatas on the road in southern California - historically Hyundai's strongest market. I've counted seven since their June introduction. I've counted eighteen of the refreshened 2006 Accords courtesy of their spiffy-looking rear ends.)
Actually that is not true. Hyundai targeted the Audi A6 and the Lexus ES with their design of the '06 Sonata. Now, that doesn't mean that they see the Sonata as being competition for the A6 and the ES. But those were the targets they used for quality, NVH, and other factors--including exterior styling in the case of the A6.
The mid-gen refresh of the Camry has been out for a couple of years, so it's nothing new and Sonata beats it in a number of ways IMO, including interior & exterior styling, ride & handling, power, and standard safety equipment. The 2006 Accord isn't markedly new either, although it did take care of the Accord's ugly rear end and add some more standard equipment in some trim lines. But nothing really big/new there. Nothing as big, for example, as the last Sonata mid-gen refresh which introduced all-new front and rear styling, plus interior tweaks and engine upgrades.
I don't think the Camry and Accord MMC were that significant. The Sonata seems to have everything the others do, and even more (VSC, etc.).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Cheers,
MidCow
No offense taken. I was born, grew up, and live in sunny, southern California, danf1. In my immediate area (12 mile radius) there're four Hyundai dealerships - Redlands, San Bernardino, Ontario, and Riverside, and at least three KIA dealerships - Fontana, Riverside, and San Bernardino. All these dealerships range at least 40 miles and out to 55 miles from the Los Angeles civic area which holds an even richer bonanza of Hyundai and KIA dealerships. California has been an excellent market for Hyundai and its corporate siblings as their regional sales stats have attested. (If y'all ever make it out this way, I'd be glad to put you and yours up for a week or two so you can see the sights!)
I've seen many 2006 Accords on the road already, (most of them were the color silver actually)
I've only seen a couple 06 Sonata's since they came out, but they do look really nice on the road (love them in black)
My dad drives an 05 EX and my head is close to the roof, but can be maneuvered away by the power seat into a more comfy place.
My next car is likely to be a 2002 Accord LX (long story), and it has lots of headroom (no sunroof of course) and a little more legroom. It also has the height adjustable seat that my 1996 lacks. A lot depends on where you are taller (bear with me). I am long of leg (34-36 inseam), but my torso is not that tall, so headroom is less of an issue than legroom is. I agree that the domestics (the few i've been in) tend to have more seat travel. My friend's 99 Taurus SHO did not have enough legroom for me at all though, I was more comfy in my Accord.(the back seat had much more room behind me than in my Accord).
Anyway, I did some research. What can I say, its October in the auto industry, I've got nothing but time. Out of the top 50 Hyundai dealers in the country, only one is in California and they are ranked #47.
There are 12 in Florida, 7 in New York, 6 in New Jersey, 5 in Pennsylvania and 3 in Ohio and Nevada both. Ca is a tough market for Hyundai.
The 4 top California dealers combined sold less cars in 2004 than one dealer in Nevada, and two in New York individually.
My store dropped last year down to #21 from #18 the previous year.
While I can't dispute the number of dealerships that there are, they don't sell at a very high volume.
Trade in was $2500.. retail at that time was $4500. I'll stick w/Camry's until I trade this one in on a Prius.
kdhspyder
1996 Hyundai Sonata GLS V-6 Retail Value - $3,630
Both cars are identically equipped except for the Hyundai's lack of ABS and a sunroof on the top model, the GLS.
I just put these forward for comparison purposes. You may do your own search for your own zipcode like I did at kbb.com
Hope this helps (someone!)
CR Reliability
Note this is on vehicles of first, second, and third year of design, from the 2000 MY. Hyundai is above the average, with BMW at the bottom of the barrel.
~alpha