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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion
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So sue me already!! :P
That was my one allowable mistake for this year!
I usually don't mess with anything but V6's and up!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And we all appreciate your pulling out the Giant Nit Pick with other people, so FYI it's V4s, not the possessive form V4's. :P
I'm sure that Ford have studied the market and if they want to take some market share away from these two, they should follow their formula.
Now, that shouldnt be hard to follow. Give us car that can be had for less than 20K, thats easy on the eye but also wont attract too much attention, comfortable, roomy, has enough power/performance but also fuel efficient (at least up to CamCord standard) and finally utterly reliable. Thats it.
Now if you follow peoples mindset that a car should spank every other car in a stop and go , flashy and all those stuff, I'm sorry but thats a formula for failure.
Like I said, look at the heart of the market.
I'd be interested to hear if the majority of all accords aren't still built in America. If I'm wrong in my thinking....oh well!
The flip side to your statement is why is the American public paying the same price, or more, for a 4c boring box when they have so many stylish V6 powerhouses to choose from?
Point 2.. you'll have to run that one by me again
Point 3 .. see Point 1. Hyundai just announced this week that it was putting most of its emphasis on it's 4c business
Point 4.. You are absolutely correct on this V6's are definitely quieter and smoother than 4c. They were back in the 70's and they are even more so now. However see pt 1 again. This is very much a personal preference and I believe that HonYotaNisDai has recognized this by making their 4c bread and butter cars nearly silent for the hwy cruising most people do. However we are talking about mature drivers mostly.
For the new baby boomer gen just starting to drive, engine noise is not only NOT a problem, it's prefered; ergo the tuned 4c Si's and others. Still the bulk of the market is expecting silent cruising. The HonYotaNisDai's 4c can take the NY to Miami road race along I95 at 80 mph without as much as a squeak or groan. Does the American driver in general need more? Prolly not.
But for those who do want more poer there are plenty of worthy choices.
I also think that there might be a little, let's call it historical pride, at work here in the perception ( or misperception ) of what the American cardriving public wants. In cars anyway the public has voted with it's feet in switching enmasse to 4c vehicles.
OTOH it has also voted with it's feet in demanding BIG heavy work trucks. The market speaks.
kdhspyder
alpha
If they both concentrated their development and marketing on say a 2.5L 4c like Nissan's and made the interior fit and finish upscale like HonYota then along with the more dramatic US styling they might have regained the place the Taurus held.
Then if they did something dramatic like Hyundai such as offer a 7 yr/70000 wrap around warranty with every one of these. Wow there's excitement
A 4c more powerful and efficient than their 90's V6's with world class styling, fit and finish and a marketing hook like the Warranty would sell out the plants.
My conclusions:
The Malibu is dead in the road as it stands, its technology is mid 90's.
The Fusion appears competitive but it's V6 is a generation behind HonYotaNis now. Although the new iteration for the CamCord will likely be a generation behind it's own development by choice. 6spd Auto is nice touch on the Fusion. Why no Auto on the 4c models though? Here they are telling the family driver, older driver, unschooled driver... we DO NOT WANT YOUR BUSINESS. ?? Go see HonYotaNisDai.
The Sonata is coming on and is worth a look if the reliability maintains.
The market will speak though..
kdhspyder
kdhspyder
alpha
Adequate performance & excellent handling. Stops on a dime. Quality of interior and exterior greatly improved compared to previous Ford products. Quick off the line if you smash the pedal to utilize the high gear. Midrange passing power is satisfactory but needs improving. Virtually no body lean when taking corners and the big tires on the SEL eat the pavement to satisfy its driver. Climate control on the SEL model is very quiet and the redundant climate and audio controls located on the steering is a ergonomic blessing. Suspension is superb giving you a rigid and quiet ride. Plenty of front and rear seat room and front seats are comfortable. Finally, headrests that are comfortable.
As far as engines, the V6 is competitive in power with the Camry, although about 10% behind the Accord. Fusion has the only 6-speed automatic in the class and the 5-speed automatic that will be arriving soon on the 4-cylinder Fusions is competitive with Accord and Camry, and is one-up on Sonata.
As for warranty, just about everyone is behind Hyundai and Kia there, so why pick on Ford for this? I would love to see all the automakers step up as Hyundai/Kia have done and back there cars as well as their marketing engines tout their reliability. I noticed Buick just went to a 4/50k base warranty, and Ford does offer a 100k powertrain warranty on the Focus so there are some good steps in this direction. Even Honda went to a 5/60k powertrain warranty this year, to match Toyota. Still lacking compared to the Koreans, though.
3 of the top selling 4 vehicles are 6 or 8 cylinders.
How much of the total market is 4 cyl, 6 cyl & 8 cyl.?
I think a lot of people make their decision on the traffic conditions they face each day, not top speed. Traffic congestion, with inconsiderate north eastern drivers, sometimes necessitates the extra torque to get into traffic.
4 cyl can easily go 80 but in certain areas pulling onto a 45 MPH road can be a problem. Depends on the driving conditions people face. Being able to safely enter traffic and avoiding an accident is worth much more than $100 to $150 spent on extra gas per year.
The fit and finish would have to be top of the line... as you indicate it may very well be now.
I believe that they should have made the primary model a world class 4c. The V6 is equal to the Camry now but the Yota V6 will never be built again since the new model is being built in Jan. The HonYotaNis V6 will be either a 3.3L or 3.5L with abt 240hp. Edmunds' comment on the Fusion V6 is that it's under powered for this class. True the Fusion V6 is more powerful than the others 4c but I think that's Ford's primary mistake. The market wants a solid 4c. In additon not providing an Auto 4c at first launch compounds the mistake. It diverts all the possible conquest buyers back to HonYota. It says same old same old to its current and possible conquest buyers.
I also said that the American styling normally is more dramatic than the Asians' and that the Fusion should benefit from it. It wasnt a knock by any means. And you've said that it is very pleasant so I'll go with that.
Finally when you're trying to make yourself standout - Do Something Dramatic. Screw the corporate culture. Go beyond the domestic 3/36 bureacratic mindset. The problem here is that such a step 'disses all the other Ford products. If the Fusion can offer the 7/70 why cant I get that on my Explorer/F150 etc.. arent they as well built? It also creates potential for corporate backstabbing as the F150, Explorer product teams use the old Hyundai/Kia smear.. 'The Fusion HAD to offer a 7/70 warranty cuz its built so bad.'
In order to fight the Korean assualt Toyota created Scion. The Scion xA and xB are nothing more than the mediocre Echo with new bodies. The Scion tC killed off the beloved Celica by giving the buyer a more powerful, larger vehicle with many more features... and then they dropped the price by $6000 !!!. The Scions are sold out always and the young potential Hyundai buyer is grabbed by the arm out of the Korean camp.
Let's see how this plays out.
kdhspyder
4c vs 6c vs 8c.. interesting question but let's keep it to cars vs cars. I'd like to research this.
I lived outside NY for 25 yrs and drove into the city most of the time unless I was on the Merritt or 84 or 95 to Boston or Baltimre. The most polite drivers were those trying to get out of the Lincoln Tunnel every night at rush hour. Where I drive now there is a little too much NASCAR mentality... 'bumping is part of driving, son' ( an exageration.. but not by much LOL ).
Never had the problem of entering traffic with my 90 Camry or 94 LHS or 96 Concorde or 97 Camry. Now the 80 Charger that was a different story. On damp days it was sure to stall in the middle of the lane as soon as you gunned it. Want torque for jumping into traffic try a Prius. It has as much or more than most V6's. The engineers had to dampen the torque on it to keep the tires from wearing out in 10K miles. Prolly not on your horizon though I guess.
kdhspyder
Getting on the Merritt Parkway, I-84 or I-95 is a breeze compared to the two lane roads; especially when idots speed up if they see a car waiting to pull out that would be in front of them in a line of traffic moving at 40 MPH. I-84 & 95 and most of the Parkway have acceleration lanes. Side streets & parking lot exits going onto a two lane road do not.
Anyway, I drive under 10K per year & and only < 3 miles to work. So my typical milage, since I bought my '05 Sonate 6 cyl is only about the EPA estimate of 19. A few weeks ago I took a 65 mile round trip--about 40 miles on I-84 with the usual stop & go in Waterbury--the rest all under 5 miles per trip, and milage for that tank was 24.
I wouldn't go that far out on a limb yet regarding a hybrid. Some are afraid to try Hyundai because of past resale value. I'm afraid to try unproven, possibly developing technology. Higher purchase price, cost of battery replacement some time in the future. I'd rather spend a few more bucks on gas with a known quantity than take a big gamble of something that may work in the future. I have a client who owns three Lexus. He bought an '06 Lexus SUV (forget the model) hybrid. Kept it for a week and traded it in on a convential '05 Lexus SUV. Said the hybrid was a death trap on the Parkway.
Actually, I said (more than once) that I hate the exterior of the Fusion, especially the garish grille. But lots of other people seem to like it, so what do I know.
As for Scion grabbing potential Hyundai buyers... let's not forget that not all Hyundai buyers are the X-Gen'ers that Scion seems to be going after. The current Scions don't interest me one iota. As you said, the xA and xB are nothing more than ECHOs with new bodies. The tC may win some Tibby buyers (and maybe that's why Scion made the tC's rear look like a Tibby), but the Tibby is a niche car for Hyundai. Hyundai offers buyers much more than Scion--for example, a fine mid-sized family car in the Sonata.
I think you might ask him about this one again since the Lexus SUV Hybrid is the 400H and it has more horsepower and torque than ANY SUV in it's class. It is a ROCKET! Thats no exageration... both vehicles have the same 3.3L V6 but the hybrid has the additional electric motor that gives it an unbelievable amount of acceleration when you stomp on it. Mybe it had too much oomph and he found it hard to control? Check the Lexus forums here.
Agreed.. and that is why with Scion Toyota wants to keep the GenXer's out of the Hyundai camp by attracting them at first with very affordable edgy vehicles then keep them coming back as their needs change to family-sized Camry's, Sienna's and 4 Runners.
But the point I was making was that 'Yota did something dramatic to A) improve sales figures;
Malibu simply beats Honda Accord and Toyota in every aspect.
Safety - Malibu has better crash test scores
Fuel Ecomony - Is much greener than Honda and Toyota only 6.9ton pollutants v/s 7.0 for Honda
EPA - Has a better mileage than Honda and Toyota
Quality - Beats Honda and Toyota hands down
Reliable - Is more reliable than Honda long term
Resale - Has the lowest cost ownership than Toyota
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mr hrao above
I almost made up my mind to by a Honda
are you certain of your point of view here?
More nitpicking, but Saab has or had in the recent past, a V4 engine.
Lots of motorbikes still do.
Honda has a bike called the VFR 750. Guess what the VFR stands for.
When I buy a new car, especially a new model, I want to look at an interior that is new, different from past etc., not the same one that another few models in the manufacturer's line. Maybe its just me, but that's how I think. IMO, all domestic manufacturers are to balme for this (the audio interface in Neon and the Viper is the same, and many of their other models in between, including Jeeps). GM? Just forget about that about to be bankrupt company, their management even at this time does not understand why they contnue to lose market share every year.
Coming back to the Accord's audio, its sure is a lot easier to navigate and the feel is much better than on a Fusion.
BTW, does it strike you sometime that there is a reason that more and more people are going away from the domestics? Their cost cutting in each line is apparent, and I as a buyer am not going to pay for retired employees health benefits.
As for more and more people going away from the domestics... give the Fusion a chance, for gosh sakes! It's been out for, what, a couple of weeks? And it's not even arrived in dealers in volume yet. If you want to see some evidence of cost-cutting, check out the hard plastic surfaces and the digital gauges (cheaper than analog) in the interior of the '06 Civic. Or how about the lack of 4-wheel disc brakes in all but higher-end models. It's not just domestic automakers who are trying to cut costs.
Edmunds.com on the Fusion's interior: "Unlike the full-size 500, the Fusion has a high-end interior that rivals the best Japan has to offer."
Edmunds.com on the Fusion's audio system: "Best Feature: Easy-to-use head unit."
Going away from domestics - that's a fact. As for the Fusion, I myself love the exterior of that car, and hope that it does really well, keeping Hon-Toy on their toes.
As for cutting costs, domestics cut costs at all points/levels. As for the Civic, it has a beautifully done interior; have you sat in one? Cutting costs with 6 total airbags (front, front-side, side curtain)?????
Also, even the worst audio system will have a best feature (compared to ITS other features), so ease of use, well, ok. I personally am disappointed that they didn't use a new unit.
'Rivals the best Japan has to offer' - Really? Hope they are referring to current model Japanese cars, which includes Lexus and Acura.
One more thing, how come there are not AT 4 cyl cars available at this time? at the 500's launch, they did not have an engine, now at the Fusion's launch, they don't have a transmission?????
Really, there is a reason why the Japanese big 3 are making more and more money each year, while as the domestics keep losing it all the time. Hint?
As for why Ford hasn't rolled out the 4-cylinder automatic yet... who knows? Maybe they are trying to prevent problems with the automatic and are making sure they are getting it right. Some other automakers, like Honda, have had trouble with automatics in recent years--maybe they are trying to avoid that. Are you upset about that because you wanted to run right out and buy a 4-cylinder automatic Fusion? Or just trying to pick a nit with Ford?
The Sonata (full size) and Civic (compact). Thats all I will say.
I'm sorry but those safety features are very important to me and I'm sure most other buyers.
Personally, drum brakes are perfectly fine in a car that light. If you plan to do a lot of high speed braking often, then discs will benefit you more because of their superior ability to dissipate heat.
I am not trying to nip pick with Ford, just that every time they laungh a good car, they somehow mess it up in the details. The 500 is a nice car for what its supposed to do, but what happened, its languishing at dealer lots, waiting for next year's discounts.
Do you really think Ford is testing their tranny more and more before launching it? Come on, Ford is the mother of recalls, remember the Focus? I am sure you are aware of transmission problems that Ford has had all these years, before you start quoting Honda. Ford even screwed the nice mazda 626 with their tranny, somthing that gave the 626 a permanent black eye.
As for compaing Ford and Honda as companies, well, we all know where that leads to, don't we? One is a thriving organization while the other is a company in deep trouble. Why do you think such a stage has reached? Hint - Product. Look at what a good product has done for DC (300C), and I was expecting the Fusion to do the same for Ford, it IS a nice car, but somehow Ford always ends up screwing up.
And its not aout me rushing to get a 4 cyl auto or not, it about NOT screwing up a great product at launch. Hopefully, Ford can finally find a good V6 for both the 500 as well as the Fusion, "adequate" just doesn't cut it.
thegraduate
You can make a case that rear drums are perfectly fine but to me that's just sounds "adequate" and that doesn't cut it. Why would I adequate in my car?
All the more reason for Ford to be extra-careful on this important product launch.
I am glad though that you agree the Fusion is a great product, despite the "old" audio interface.
Well, it would be nice for Ford to make it standard, since Honda, Hyundai and possibly the NG Camry will have standard on their models.
Does the Ford Fusion come with VSC? I just checked the site, and I can't seem to find that feature standard (or optional)
The Fusion is a great car, the interior is a HUGE improvement next to Ford's other interiors. It's probably as good as Honda's. The only thing I cant get over is the styling, it is nice, but I dont want a 'look-at-me' car.
I agree it would be good for Ford to offer side bags and ABS standard like Honda and Hyundai. I haven't seen an official announcement of Toyota doing this on the new Camry.
Resale Values
no, i was not including motorcycles. i haven't any enclosed 4-5 passenger types.
VFR = visual flight rules? :shades:
TEAShea
True about less fade in repeated hard stops, but in my urban commute, I dont make multiple runs from 60-0 at impending lock-up. Also, I would like to know how drum brakes could perform better, if mine lock-up on intense emergency braking (pre-standard ABS), how can they possibly stop any better? They are easy to modulate and haven't needed replacement after 155,000 miles! Works for me, and I would bet anyone switching from one type of brakes to another would be hard pressed to tell a major difference. My mom had a 1993 Accord EX with 4-wheel discs, and I have a 1996 Accord LX with discs/drums. The pedal feel was similar, with a slightly long(by today's standards) stroke, and perfect modulation. I could summon the right amount of braking power in either car, although she had ABS, so the car couldn't lock-up like mine. Other than less fading in multiple high-speed stops, what makes a disc superior?
I really would like to know what I'm missing here!