You are right of course and in the new iteration due to be built in Jan it may very well have standard S+C A/B.. we'll have to wait and see. But soon all the Corolla's, Scions, Yaris' etc will also have VSC.. now there is a significant change.
tires make a big difference in acceleration/braking/slalom numbers. i think these magazines should run their test vehicles through a smog check to try to ferret out performance optimized(not stock) engine computers.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
"i think these magazines should run their test vehicles through a smog check to try to ferret out performance optimized(not stock) engine computers."
Wow, what a VERY intriguing point. Yank* the computer's FlashROM, dicker with the ignition and fuel delivery mapping, and "Voila!", five or six more horsepower and four or five more pound-feet of torque at the drive wheels at the cost of elevated emissions (and at that, maybe still in compliance but just barely). Re-worked chips are a fact of life at the retail level. It would be naive to think the automakers aren't aware of them. It's not a great leap in logic to entertain the notion they might use them in the cars they provide to the enthusiast rags.
I had been suspicious that the auto manufacturers were paying the enthusiast mag reviewers under the table because of the consistently lower performance numbers recorded by Consumer Reports than those recorded by the enthusiast rags, but this notion circumvents that skulduggery entirely. (Unlike the enthisiast mags, Consumer Reports BUYS their test vehicles, outright, at the normal retail level.)
*Some ECM FlashROMs are hard-soldered in place. I know of at least one "rechipper" that sends its customers ECM removal instructions and a prepaid overnight FedEx shipping carton to forward the entire ECM to their facility to reprogram the FlashROM in-circuit for a performance boost. The "jiggered" ECM is returned via overnight FedEx. (And before anyone inquires, no, I've neither utilized this company's services to circumvent federal and state emissions protocols, nor will I, nor will I identify it by name. You green-light-gran-prixers'll have to do your own search. :P )
Actually that thread went quite far, and i had quite an enjoyable time frequenting that forum.
I thought your name looked familiar. You made some good friends over on those Mazda threads IIRC.
It's dead now though right? I've been participating in a CR-V vs Escape thread for nearly four years now and it's still going strong. That's why the TSX vs Mazda6 thread was a dud for me.
I read the MT review of the Accord, Fusion, Sonata, and Camry at my local drug store. I didn't buy it because I didn't want to reward MT for such a poor review.
The uneveness in the trim lines that were tested has already been mentioned here. MT explained it as they picked the "most common" trim for each car. That may be true for the Camry (LE) and the Sonata (GLS--btw, not GLE as MT noted in the review). But I doubt that's true for the Fusion SEL (how do they know what the most popular trim line is, the review was written even before the car went on sale!) and the Accord EX-V6 with Navigation (the LX is much more popular). They did admit they should have tested an Accord LX-V6, but said they had trouble getting one. Yeah, right. Anyway, the selection of trim put the Camry and Sonata at a disadvantage right away. Note how MT dissed the cloth on the Sonata GLS. They also noted that the ride and handling of the Sonata probably would have been better with the 17" wheels. Why didn't they order the car that way then, or drive the LX??
The other thing that stood out was that they went out of their way to nick the Camry and especially the Sonata. One example: the only thing they said about the Sonata's brakes were "they were there." They didn't bother to mention it had the shortest 60-0 stopping distance of the four cars--even though it had the same Michelin tires that they stuck the blame on for the Accord's long stopping distance. They also felt it important to mention that the Sonata's soft plastic dash cover was an inch or two shorter than the Camry's. Wow, that will be a major buying criterion for many people I'll bet. How about talking about the feel of the Sonata's manumatic shifter (the only one in the group), or maybe mentioning the effect of the Camry's and Sonata's VSC on emergency handling? No, they'd rather nit-pick.
Then at the end, they recommend that buyers dig into their sofas to come up with the extra "change" to get the Accord vs. the other cars. Those MT editors must make a lot more money than I do, because $4000 (Sonata GLS V6 vs. Accord LX-V6) isn't loose change to me. Add in the minimum $2000 rebates ($3000 for Hyundai owners) available now on the Sonata V6, and that's a signficant difference between #1 and #3. Oh, well--it's their money. If they feel the Accord LX-V6 is worth $6000-$7000 more than the Sonata, that's there choice. I'd take the Sonata and stick that money into my 401K or my kids' college funds if it were me.
Makes me glad I cancelled my MT subscription many years ago, when they dropped the in-depth explanation of their COTY award scoring.
the reason i thought of the enhanced ecm is because my neigbor has an m3. the m3 is known for a raggy idle and kind of a chugging when turned off. he bought a product called a 'shark injection'. it plugs into the obd II port and the procedure took about 10 minutes. i couldn't believe the difference and it was easy!
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I guess a poor review to you is when they don't care for the Sonata.
Wow - and they went out on a limb an picked the Accord! Imagine that.
The Accord won because it should have won. It isn't just a collection of amenities and statistics rolled into a vehicle. It is a fine machine that grabs your senses and tells you its a must have (as C & D puts it).
Someday the others may approach the Honda perch. The 2007 Camry could be the one.
I guess you didn't read my post. I didn't complain that the Accord won. I complained because I thought the comparo was poorly written (one of the worst I've read in recent memory actually), dwelled too much on nits vs. useful information, and, the biggest problem, it didn't compare cars that were at all close to each other in equipment.
I think I missed your post in which you praised Edmunds.com's comparo of the Accord, Camry, and Sonata which the Sonata won.
The uneveness in the trim lines that were tested has already been mentioned here. MT explained it as they picked the "most common" trim for each car. That may be true for the Camry (LE) and the Sonata (GLS--btw, not GLE as MT noted in the review). But I doubt that's true for the Fusion SEL (how do they know what the most popular trim line is, the review was written even before the car went on sale!) and the Accord EX-V6 with Navigation (the LX is much more popular).
It honestly wouldnt surprise me for the EX-V-6 to be more popular than the LX-V-6. I visited my Honda dealer today, and counted four EX V-6 sedans and couldnt find an LX V-6 at all. I agree, the LX would fit better in this comparo (and be the one I chose [leather isnt a must-have for me, as it's too hot in the summer]) because of its similarity in price with the others.
Maybe you couldn't find more LXes because they had been sold? It would be interesting to know the mix actually sold, LX vs. EX. I know I see more LXes on the road, but maybe there are more EX-V6s sold than LX-V6s. OTOH, I see a lot more Camry XLE V6s on the road than LE V6s.
MT admitted they should have tested the LX V6. Woulda, shoulda, coulda...
You really can't fault Motortrend for not getting an Accord LXV6 for the comparo. Afterall, they can request a certain model all they want, but that doesn't mean they'll get it.
If you notice, the Accord in the comparison test is a 2005 Honda Accord EXV6. They originally asked for a 2006 Honda Accord LXV6. Since the cars were V6 models, they had to get what they got. They mentioned something about a mixup from Honda if I remember correctly.
This also proves your point wrong about the Motortrend/ Car and Driver sharing. Because the models for each car were either different years or different trim levels (except Fusion SELV6) The Accord was an 05 for MT, 06 for C&D. The Sonata was an LX in C&D, a GLSV6 in MT. The Camry was an XLE in C&D and an LEV6 in MT.
But either way, as you stated, if the cars were based on "the most popular trim" and the cars tested are V6 models, then the EXV6 is the car they should have been used (even if they say they shouldn't have) because the LXV6 models generally DO NOT SELL WELL. That could change since the LXV6 for 2006 is basically an EX with Cloth V6 model. The EXV6 has always outsold LXV6 models since the introduction in 1995 of the V6 Accord.
But in the same since I can't see how the LEV6 Camry outsells in the XLE. In the South East (not sure about other parts of the U.S.) The XLEV6 is the best selling V6 model. I think the SEV6 might even outsell the LEV6, but I'm not sure.
Also, I was kind of surprised that Motortrend mentioned a lack of some quality feel in the Sonata's interior. I can't say I really don't agree, but the Fusion, IMO isn't that great on the inside and I find the Sonata's interior materials and layout to be substantially better than that of the Fusion. Folks keep going on and on about how good the new Fusion's interior is, I think its no better than my Altima (and lord KNOWS I'm not praising that interior) Better than a Taurus, yes, but better than the Sonata or Accord? Don't think so.
Though, they did call the Fusion's interior generic and said it looked too much like the F150 (and I agree).
Also, I was a little iffy about Car and Driver mentioning how the Fusion didn't need "wood trim" or something like that on its Fusion tester (because it had the black interior) but the SEL with Beige interior has some of the UGLIEST wood trim on the market. Worse than even the Altima's wood trim.
I'm not surprised the Camry came in last. To be honest, it usually never wins comparisons. On top of that, the plain jane LEV6 model's interior looked cheap lookin in the photos.
The Fusion is doing pretty well for itself I must say. I wonder if Road and Track did a Midsize car comparison this month as well. All these magazines tend to do these test around the same time. I just wish the Altima, with its revised interior were put into these tests. I don't think the Altima would win the comparisons though, but I'm willing to bet it would beat the Camry. It seems all the cars are doing that lately.
I've owned Accord, Camry and Taurus. Had a Nissan once. Never a Hyundai. I'll always praise the Accords until they falter - they're solid cars. Not saying the others are no good - just not as good.
Never owning a Hyundai or Kia may skew my opinion against them even tho they may have improved their offerings. Went by my Ford dealer today to look at a Fusion and they didn't have any yet.
But its sooooo tough to beat an Accord. I'm considering an 06 TL - but for $6-7K less the loaded Accord could be a worthy option - altho the rear restyling isn't as attractive as the Sonata's.
Maybe you couldn't find more LXes because they had been sold? It would be interesting to know the mix actually sold, LX vs. EX. I know I see more LXes on the road, but maybe there are more EX-V6s sold than LX-V6s. OTOH, I see a lot more Camry XLE V6s on the road than LE V6s.
That would be good to know. My car needs servicing in about 2,000 miles. I'll try to remember to ask. I don't notice how many are on the road because Honda only puts the badge [V-6] on the back of both cars, not LXV-6 OR EXV-6. its a shame, because I think the LX-V-6 is actually a pretty good value!
This also proves your point wrong about the Motortrend/ Car and Driver sharing.
I was corrected on that mistake some time back--it's C/D and R&T that are owned by the same company, not MT and C/D.
The Camry LE's interior did look plain in the photos. Just as it does in person. Another reason I think the XLE, or SE, should have been tested since MT tested the top-of-the-line Accord EX-V6 with leather and navi.
Think about it... the '06 Accord has been restyled. Didn't these MT editors notice when the Accord pulled up that it wasn't a '06, and definitely wasn't a LX? Couldn't they put a call into American Honda and say, "Hey, guys, we wanted a '06 LX V6--do you have any? Not yet? Could you send us a '05 LX V6 then?" I know darn well Hyundai would have supplied a Sonata LX had they asked (or at least a GLS with the 17" wheels), and Toyota would have provided a XLE or SE V6.
The Camry doesn't win many comparisons... except those done by the car-buying public. It would have been interesting to see the results if MT had compared the Camry SE V6, all gussied up with leather and navi, to the Accord LX.
So they knew the car was an 05 EXV6 probably as soon as they saw it. Given they saw those UGLY 05 all red taillights. (No offense 05 owners)
Maybe they didn't have an 06 LXV6 built in time for the comparison and decided to send an 05 EXV6 instead. As many of us have pointed out already, the 03-05 Accord LXV6 hasn't sold well at all. LXV6 models historically don't sell. I bet the DX even sells better. So if they don't really sell well, they probably didn't fool with making many, and they probably had none to send. This is probably the reason the LXV6 added so much content for 2006. The "Value" wasn't there to many folks. Alpha himself, wasn't the biggest fan on the LXV6, but I believe he now likes the LXV6 the best overall in the Accord lineup. I know if I were buying, the LXV6 would be my pick now too.
When 06 models first hit the lots, all I saw were EX and EXV6 models, with the occasional DX and LX around. As a matter of fact, in my area, I see more EX Accords than LX models, though I know the LX is the better seller.
I really don't know why they didn't get an LXV6 in time. But didn't the writer point out that they requested an LXV6, asked for it, but was unable to get it in time for the comparison. No need in holding off a comparison test because the company couldn't send EXACTLY what you wanted is there? At least they got the V6 part right LOL.
Simply put, why don't you just write them and ask them about it? Don't they have a comments section or something like that in this magazine?
Agreeing on the plain jane look of the LE's interior. Gotta agree there. And I knew you were corrected and my sorry self forgot to mention that. I was just proving the point that the cars weren't the same exact cars in each comparison test.
And sure the Carmy wins the ultimate car comparison as being the number one selling car in America, but so what, the Explorer is like the Number one selling SUV, doesn't make it the best though Hell, the Chevy Celebrity was number one back in the 80s....LOL
The Camry is a good car, but I find it strange that it RARELY wins comparison tests and nearly always comes in at the bottom. But isn't it CR's best rated Family Sedan or something like that?
I think if they had used an SE, it wouldn't have matter much. Though the SE is better handling than the LE and XLE, its still isn't better than the Sonata, Fusion or Accord in handling from what I've read. Can't say personally since I haven't driven and SE Camry since 2003. Things would have probably gotten worse for the Camry still, because the price of the SE would have probably docked some points, as it probably did for the EXV6.
The Accord is more expensive, sure, but take away Navi, and it isn't so bad compared to the Camry I guess. The Sonata represents the best value overall though.
I Can't WAIT to see the 2007 Camry and 2007 Altima!
Simply put, why don't you just write them and ask them about it? Don't they have a comments section or something like that in this magazine?
Maybe if I had actually paid good money for the magazine, I'd write a letter that they could ignore (as my past letters to them) or respond to with a pithy quip.
The HAH is actually CR's top pick in the family sedans category now. Although they have also said that the choice between the Accord EX V6, Camry XLE V6, and (old) Passat GLX V6 is really a matter of personal preference, they are all so close. Since then, the all-new Passat has arrived, as has the new Sonata. And the new Azera will be out very soon, then early next year the new Camry and Optima. So it will be interesting to see what CR's rankings are come next April.
I complained because I thought the comparo was poorly written (one of the worst I've read in recent memory actually), dwelled too much on nits vs. useful information, and, the biggest problem, it didn't compare cars that were at all close to each other in equipment.
I haven't read the comparo, I've only heard there is one out by MT. After reading your posts, that is one of the worst comparisons. They should have done what edmunds did by comparing similarly priced models, or what C&D did by comparing similarly equipped models.
I thought that the ratio of 4c to 6c was over 90% in the Camry line but recently I read that it was 84%. Of that 16% of V6's, in my experience most are XLE V6's with all the amenities. The V6 LE is a non non-seller.
the most common overall has usually been the LS 4 cyl. But, for the V6, I believe the EX is a much better seller than the LX.
People on a budget go for the cheaper LX 4, but most V6 buyers go for all the goodies. Makes sense, given the rpice premium for essentially a bigger engine.
Up until this year, the EX V6 Accord far outsold the superbasic LX V6 model with its hideous plastic wheel covers, for example. However, I've already seen a few of the new upgraded LX V6 models on the road (which now come with moonroof, VSA, 17 inch alloys), and I'll bet the mix is going to change for this and next year.
The Camry continues to be a great car, IMO, but I'm removing it from my personal list of 'recommended' models because its just too near redesign (unless it can be had at a fire sale price, which is likely...). With the redesign, I'd like to see some re-contenting of the LE V6 model to make it a better match for the Accord and Fusion.
With regards to the comparos, I would have rather seen the Camry SE V6, because I feel its a better value match for the cars tested, and because it has the better engine choice of its two V6s... in relation to the cars tested. Additionally, Id say the Camry SE would handle as well as the Sonata LX, where as the XLE doesnt.
Backy- I agree with you re: the MT test. Ever notice how MT is always on the newsstands a week prior to R&T and C/D? I feel its because they skimp on the quality of content. I'd rather it take longer to get to press and be a better assembled comparo group, for example. MT is very subjective in their rankings and the rationale isnt always clear. At least C/D has a scoring run-down and highlights the subjective scores as well as their weights in the total scheme.
In my opinion, the Sonata got a few surprising punches from MT. So did the Camry, but they were a bit more deserved, the vehicle is entering its curtain call, afterall
No, not yet. There are too many unknowns right now, e.g. some of the cars I am considering aren't even available yet. But if I had to buy a car today, it would probably be the Sonata GLS (4-cylinder) or maybe even the GL, because I think with the current rebates and discounts it represents the best car value out there, for the kind of car I would want to buy. The bad news is, that means my wife would get the new car, not me; I'd take her '04 Elantra GT. Which is not a bad deal overall...
I'm surprised that C&D included the Camry in the comparison since we're only about 3-4 months away from the new Camry's intro. It shows how well-engineered the Accord is when even in its 4th model year it can still beat the new guys (Fusion & Sonata). It will be interesting to see if the new Camry can beat the Accord since a substantially improved vehicle like the Sonata still fell short.
I just read C/D's review. It's light-years better than the MT review, IMO, with much more detail about driving the cars. But some comments are still curious. One thing that seems odd is the Lows that they came up with for the Sonata: Infuriating seatbelt warning chime [buckle up, for gosh sakes!], overly decorated instrument pointers [?!?], driver's seat tries to slide you off the front. The first two seem like they took the Big Nit Pick out. The last one is legit, but they said that driving position was a "minor complaint". If these are the lowest of the low of the Sonata in C/D's eyes, it must mean the car is pretty good. Compare them to the Lows for the other cars: AARP-like control and a Martha Stewart attitude for the Camry; poorly located HVAC controls, too-small storage pockets, and gaps on the hood so wide it looked unlatched for the Fusion; and a tight back seat and a suspension that tells you all about the bumps on the Accord.
It's clear which car they wanted to win when they take plusses for one car and make them minuses ("hey, you could spill a Coke into the Sonata's shifter!") and minuses for other cars and make them plusses (road noise and tire noise on the Accord are dismissed as "the Accord's driver-involvement program.")
Still, a much better review than MT's, and a better choice of trim (except why the navi on the Accord?). At least they didn't end the article with some ridiculous suggestion to dig into your sofa to come up with the $4-6000 more for the Accord than for the Fusion or Sonata. They leave it to the reader to decide if the differences are worth the extra money.
Backy, CD has always praised the Accord's ride as one that transmits enough information to the driver without being unnecessarily unsettled. This is one of the main reasons that the Accord wins most comparos, as it has this fine ride and handling balance.
Personally, I don't think that CD deliberately wants the Accord to win any comparison; the car itsels is a long time winner. Case in point is that if you check any recent midsize comparos by any publication, the Accord mostly wins. This from publications as varied as CD, MT, RT, Autoweek and even CR.
One thing is clear, both the Fusion and Sonata have come up well in the recent comparisons, so this means that we as customers have more consistent choices.
Baggs, I did participate in that discussion and in fact was tilting more towards the MZ6 due to the simple fact that it had better torque than the TSX.
Unfortunately, even constructive suggestions are sometimes taken in a negative manner, due to the nickname I have.
Road noise and tire noise aren't about transmitting enough information to the driver. This isn't about ride quality and handling balance, which are plusses for the Accord, it's about noise isolation. And the Accord is pretty poor at it, IMO. It's just that it never gets really dinged for it in these reviews, while other cars do.
The Accord wins these comparos because it's a fine overall package in a mid-sized car, with particular emphasis on handling that goes over very well with the car mag editors. For anyone willing to spend the extra money and deal with the tradeoffs, e.g. a smaller rear seat and road/tire noise, it's a fine choice. Before the '06 Sonata (I haven't driven the Fusion/Milan yet), it was my top choice in a mid-sized car. Now, if I were going to spend $30k for a car, it would not be the Accord but a base 3 Series. If I wanted the most car my money could buy, but without compromising safety, comfort, or fuel economy, I'd go with the Sonata. The Malibu Maxx would be another interesting choice for versatility (but not on topic).
And in C/D's defense, they do recognize when an Accord doesnt match up- in three separate comparison tests (May 92, May 95, Nov 95) that I can think of the 3rd generation Camry (inarguably the best iteration of the model in comparison to peers), it beat the Accord, from 92-96. Never again though, LOL, as Honda learned its lesson.
"a suspension that tells you all about the bumps on the Accord."
From your post. This is what I was referring to.
As for being 'poor' at noise insulation, earlier tests have documented this is not a fact. Of all these cars, the Camry is the only one that stands out in isolation parameters, the rest are all in the same ballpark, in fact the Fusion lets in more noise
I respect your choice; the Sonata is a fine automobile. However, 30k is not the real world price for an Accord EXV6; you can get one for around 24k sans navigation. I would still pick the Accord over a Sonata; I can't get used to the center stack (that is something I would be looking at much more than anything else) and also the overall refinement of the Accord (the Sonata is good, just not there for the last tenth for me).
However, like I said earlier, I am impressed with the acceleration as well as mileage figures that CD got for the Sonata, while these separately may not mean much, together they demonstrate that the new Sonata is technically very competent.
"Suspension muscles tell you all about the bumps" is a direct quote from the review--from the Lows of the car, not the highs. So was the comment about road noise and tire noise. We have no way of knowing whether the sound meter readings were done on a smooth road or bumpy road. According to C/D's tests, the Fusion and Accord were the noisiest cars at 70 mph cruise, with the Camry best and the Sonata in middle. The only time the Accord was the lone quiestest car was at full throttle. It tied for quietest at idle with the Sonata.
I know you can get an Accord EXV6 for much less than 30k; OTOH, I know you can get a Sonata LX for under $18k. So it's still a $6k difference in price. The difference between them isn't worth $6k to me, but for you and others it is. It's your money, you should buy what pleases you.
Its funny how we think one car "won" when compared to the others. Buy the car you like and feel good about. For me its Honda/Acura products. I'll spend the extra money (if necessary) to get them. I'm leaning towards the TL. I also test drove the 06 325 and G35. They both are smaller than the TL. If you're OK with your knee banging the controls on the door all day then go with the 325/G35. So to have the writers tell you the 325 "beats" the TL is silly when the TL will smoke that car - all in a tight amenity laden package - for much less $. You gotta take these reviews with a grain of salt. Most Japanese cars are excellent anyway. We're splitting hairs comparing great to damn good.
I'm surprised that C&D included the Camry in the comparison since we're only about 3-4 months away from the new Camry's intro. It shows how well-engineered the Accord is when even in its 4th model year it can still beat the new guys (Fusion & Sonata). It will be interesting to see if the new Camry can beat the Accord since a substantially improved vehicle like the Sonata still fell short.
Impressive win for the Accord. I'll have to pay a visit to my local Barnes & Noble in the next few days. I took a test-drive of the 06 EX-V6 (with navi) about 2 weeks ago and was impressed by the improved handling, about as good as the 5AT Acura TL which I rented that day. That car was dripping in refinement. The ride is a little firmer but not as much as the TL. The power was great, the changed speedo/tacho font looks better, more Acura-like and the new 4th-gen navi is faster with more features. BTW, the 06 TL still has the slower 3rd-gen navi. Oh, one more thing, I also like those LED taillights, so bright you need shades. :shades:
I look at the car magazine comparison results the same way as Consumers reports ratings. I ignore the number, and look at the comments. basically, depending on how you eight the factors, you can get a different result.
C&D will always give higher scores to the drivers car, and penalize the more isolated one (which explains why the Accord usually beats the Camry). But, if you value smoothness and isolation from the road most of all, you might rank the Camry #1. All depends on what you are looking for.
Stuff like small trunk or lack of headroom is more absolute. Steering feel, etc. is subjective, and you really need to try it out and decide for yourself.
the most common overall has usually been the LX 4 cyl. But, for the V6, I believe the EX is a much better seller than the LX.
One of my best friends has worked at the same Honda dealer for 15 years. He has said before that the EX V6 sells about 10 to 1 compared to the LX V6. The LX V6 just hasn't been that popular because in the past it looked like a stripper on the outside- no alloy wheels, even.
They may have rectified that for the '06 MY, only time will tell. The '06 LX V6 and EX V6 look identical from outside, the only main difference is the EX has leather and available navigation. They both have sunroof, alloys, etc.
I haven't read the CD test yet, but at least in the MT test they said the '05 Accord with Nav was the only one they could get at the moment. I bet an '06 LX V6 would have still placed in the top spot. Nobody else can pull it all together like they can.
I am so impressed with the several tests of the Ford Fusion that I'm going to test drive on this weekend. It's really a hot looking car (maybe even better than the Altima looked when it debuted in '02). The biggest mistake they made on it was not including a manual shift gate for the automatic. There aren't even traditional 3, 2, 1 positions, just D and L (still not sure what L does).
The Accord may be better put together, have a superior interior and more power than the Fusion, but the Fusion wins by a mile on looks over any of the other cars!
I drove a Sonata when they first came out several months ago and wasn't overly excited about it. It was pleasant, nice looking, decent power but I hate the interior. Very blah and something about the woodgrain around the HVAC controls just screams cheap to me.
The Camry- if I can't say anything nice, I won't say anything at all. I wonder if the Chevy Malibu would've beat it if they would have included it?
I don't know why most people find the Fusion so sharp-looking. I think it's ugly as sin, starting with the garish grille and extending to the straight, boring lines of the body, ending at the cliche-ish clear tail lamps. It reminds me of a Ford sedan from the 60s. But maybe that's the point. I just don't get it.
P.S. If you don't like faux wood, the Sonata's grey interior has faux carbon fiber (or whatever it is) accents instead of wood.
People should only use C&D's results as a guide, nothing more. They should buy the vehicle they feel is right for them.
To sum it up:
06 Camry: You may want to wait for the new 2007 Camry, unless you get a great deal & prefer isolation over handling/steering "feel".
06 Sonata: A big improvement over the previous model, good value. It still falls short in some areas, but the gap is closing (fast). It should easily gain sales at the expense of GM, Ford and maybe even Toyota.
06 Fusion: A great start, reliability is still unknown.
06 Accord: Best-engineered, very refined & reliable with a European flavor. The "benchmark" of the class even in its 4th model year. It should be interesting to see if the new Camry can end the Accord's current reign.
I can find Accord EX V6 for $24,588, but please let me know where I can buy a new 2006 Sonata LX for $18,000. I do not find the Accord to be worth the difference in price and agree that the TL is a very interesting option, but at these prices, the Azera also seems to be worth a look.
IMO Toyota is kind of screwed when it comes to the Camry vs. Accord comparison. Seems like a new version of the Camry is always coming out a year before a new Accord comes out. Although it takes a manufacturer at least a few years to make a full production model, Honda has the distinct advantage of time to know what Toyota has to offer. I'm almost sure that whatever Toyota puts out for '07 will be topped by the Accord in '08.
Toyotas (including Lexus) that I've driven and heard about just don't seem to offer as much in driving dynamics as Hondas, Mazdas, and Nissans, which explains why the Camry never does very well in these magazine comparison tests. I think the '07 Camry will continue this tradition and prioritize quiet/isolated ride over sportiness.
Take a look at the Sonata: Prices Paid and Buying Experience discussion here at Edmunds, and you will see recent experience with purchases under $18k. This is possible because of $3000 total rebates for V6 models and aggressive discounts available in at least some markets. Invoice on the LX is $21,561. So it would take aggressive discounting to get below $18k with all rebates, but it has been done. (Just as not everyone gets an Accord EX-V6 with leather for $24,588.) BTW, a better comparison to the EX-V6 w/o leather is the Sonata GLS with moonroof and power seat, $21,213 invoice. (But note the LX with leather etc. is only $350 more invoice-wise.)
BTW, a better comparison to the EX-V6 w/o leather is the Sonata GLS with moonroof and power seat, $21,213 invoice. (But note the LX with leather etc. is only $350 more invoice-wise.)
The EX-V6 Accord has leather as standard; no cloth available on it. You may choose an LX-V6 and get almost all the features of the EX (minus automatic climate control, leather, heated seats) for closer to $25,000 MSRP, but all EXV6 models have leather.
IMO Toyota is kind of screwed when it comes to the Camry vs. Accord comparison. Seems like a new version of the Camry is always coming out a year before a new Accord comes out. Although it takes a manufacturer at least a few years to make a full production model, Honda has the distinct advantage of time to know what Toyota has to offer
I wouldnt be surprised if there isnt some orchestration on this done in the Far East. The timing of new models is pretty much fixed since all are on 5 yr design cycles so 'Yota will always be a year ahead of Honda.. but they 'jumped the gun this year to gain an advantage in the strong spring selling season rather than wait until August. I agreee wholeheartedly on your last sentence about the '07.
Did you ever notice that in the comparos: HonYota always has the bland styling.. Nissan is cutting edge HonYota always has the same engines.. Nissan's always larger / more powerful Honda always feels better to drive Yota is always quieter Nissan seems ?? in interior quality Camry price = X Accord price = X - 200 Altima price = X - 500
It appears Hyundai is trying to emulate 'Yota more than the other two but at thousands$ less.
In sales though the Camry continues to pull away from the Accord and Altima to the point that the Corolla is just behind the Accord now and ahead of the Altima.
Ok, for the record, I've already mentioned that the gen 3 (92-96) nailed the Accord in comparison tests by even C/D. Toyota can do it, they just havent in the past two generations (97-06).
You state "I'm almost sure that whatever Toyota puts out for '07 will be topped by the Accord in '08."
Well, thats fair enough, but the Camry is most likely going to have a 269 horse V6 that will significantly make up for the its power and efficiency deficit relative to the current Accord, and I doubt the Accord will top that power figure in its next generation, so that solves one of the big reservations about the current Camry. Additionally, look to the new Avalon. In the Touring trim line, handling is significantly improved over the previous generation, and its better even in the cushy trims. This would lead me to believe that Toyota will make similar strides with the SE model Camry, and other trims in general.
Finally, Toyota pays attention. A last place finish, even if by a three points, is never a good thing, and I'm sure they're looking for more consumer and press "wins" with the next generation. I'm pretty convinced they've recognized the more competitve marketplace, which is why they've crashed the redesign cycle by 6 months.... there's too many big intros/redesigns right now. Same reason why the Accord mid cycle upgrade was so much more extensive than in previous generations.
Comments
i think these magazines should run their test vehicles through a smog check to try to ferret out performance optimized(not stock) engine computers.
Wow, what a VERY intriguing point. Yank* the computer's FlashROM, dicker with the ignition and fuel delivery mapping, and "Voila!", five or six more horsepower and four or five more pound-feet of torque at the drive wheels at the cost of elevated emissions (and at that, maybe still in compliance but just barely). Re-worked chips are a fact of life at the retail level. It would be naive to think the automakers aren't aware of them. It's not a great leap in logic to entertain the notion they might use them in the cars they provide to the enthusiast rags.
I had been suspicious that the auto manufacturers were paying the enthusiast mag reviewers under the table because of the consistently lower performance numbers recorded by Consumer Reports than those recorded by the enthusiast rags, but this notion circumvents that skulduggery entirely. (Unlike the enthisiast mags, Consumer Reports BUYS their test vehicles, outright, at the normal retail level.)
*Some ECM FlashROMs are hard-soldered in place. I know of at least one "rechipper" that sends its customers ECM removal instructions and a prepaid overnight FedEx shipping carton to forward the entire ECM to their facility to reprogram the FlashROM in-circuit for a performance boost. The "jiggered" ECM is returned via overnight FedEx. (And before anyone inquires, no, I've neither utilized this company's services to circumvent federal and state emissions protocols, nor will I, nor will I identify it by name. You green-light-gran-prixers'll have to do your own search. :P )
I agree 100%.
I thought your name looked familiar. You made some good friends over on those Mazda threads IIRC.
It's dead now though right? I've been participating in a CR-V vs Escape thread for nearly four years now and it's still going strong. That's why the TSX vs Mazda6 thread was a dud for me.
The uneveness in the trim lines that were tested has already been mentioned here. MT explained it as they picked the "most common" trim for each car. That may be true for the Camry (LE) and the Sonata (GLS--btw, not GLE as MT noted in the review). But I doubt that's true for the Fusion SEL (how do they know what the most popular trim line is, the review was written even before the car went on sale!) and the Accord EX-V6 with Navigation (the LX is much more popular). They did admit they should have tested an Accord LX-V6, but said they had trouble getting one. Yeah, right. Anyway, the selection of trim put the Camry and Sonata at a disadvantage right away. Note how MT dissed the cloth on the Sonata GLS. They also noted that the ride and handling of the Sonata probably would have been better with the 17" wheels. Why didn't they order the car that way then, or drive the LX??
The other thing that stood out was that they went out of their way to nick the Camry and especially the Sonata. One example: the only thing they said about the Sonata's brakes were "they were there." They didn't bother to mention it had the shortest 60-0 stopping distance of the four cars--even though it had the same Michelin tires that they stuck the blame on for the Accord's long stopping distance. They also felt it important to mention that the Sonata's soft plastic dash cover was an inch or two shorter than the Camry's. Wow, that will be a major buying criterion for many people I'll bet. How about talking about the feel of the Sonata's manumatic shifter (the only one in the group), or maybe mentioning the effect of the Camry's and Sonata's VSC on emergency handling? No, they'd rather nit-pick.
Then at the end, they recommend that buyers dig into their sofas to come up with the extra "change" to get the Accord vs. the other cars. Those MT editors must make a lot more money than I do, because $4000 (Sonata GLS V6 vs. Accord LX-V6) isn't loose change to me. Add in the minimum $2000 rebates ($3000 for Hyundai owners) available now on the Sonata V6, and that's a signficant difference between #1 and #3. Oh, well--it's their money. If they feel the Accord LX-V6 is worth $6000-$7000 more than the Sonata, that's there choice. I'd take the Sonata and stick that money into my 401K or my kids' college funds if it were me.
Makes me glad I cancelled my MT subscription many years ago, when they dropped the in-depth explanation of their COTY award scoring.
the m3 is known for a raggy idle and kind of a chugging when turned off. he bought a product called a 'shark injection'. it plugs into the obd II port and the procedure took about 10 minutes. i couldn't believe the difference and it was easy!
Wow - and they went out on a limb an picked the Accord! Imagine that.
The Accord won because it should have won. It isn't just a collection of amenities and statistics rolled into a vehicle. It is a fine machine that grabs your senses and tells you its a must have (as C & D puts it).
Someday the others may approach the Honda perch. The 2007 Camry could be the one.
Backy has said many positive things about several brands of cars, including Honda.
I think I missed your post in which you praised Edmunds.com's comparo of the Accord, Camry, and Sonata which the Sonata won.
It honestly wouldnt surprise me for the EX-V-6 to be more popular than the LX-V-6. I visited my Honda dealer today, and counted four EX V-6 sedans and couldnt find an LX V-6 at all. I agree, the LX would fit better in this comparo (and be the one I chose [leather isnt a must-have for me, as it's too hot in the summer]) because of its similarity in price with the others.
MT admitted they should have tested the LX V6. Woulda, shoulda, coulda...
If you notice, the Accord in the comparison test is a 2005 Honda Accord EXV6. They originally asked for a 2006 Honda Accord LXV6. Since the cars were V6 models, they had to get what they got. They mentioned something about a mixup from Honda if I remember correctly.
This also proves your point wrong about the Motortrend/ Car and Driver sharing. Because the models for each car were either different years or different trim levels (except Fusion SELV6) The Accord was an 05 for MT, 06 for C&D. The Sonata was an LX in C&D, a GLSV6 in MT. The Camry was an XLE in C&D and an LEV6 in MT.
But either way, as you stated, if the cars were based on "the most popular trim" and the cars tested are V6 models, then the EXV6 is the car they should have been used (even if they say they shouldn't have) because the LXV6 models generally DO NOT SELL WELL. That could change since the LXV6 for 2006 is basically an EX with Cloth V6 model. The EXV6 has always outsold LXV6 models since the introduction in 1995 of the V6 Accord.
But in the same since I can't see how the LEV6 Camry outsells in the XLE. In the South East (not sure about other parts of the U.S.) The XLEV6 is the best selling V6 model. I think the SEV6 might even outsell the LEV6, but I'm not sure.
Also, I was kind of surprised that Motortrend mentioned a lack of some quality feel in the Sonata's interior. I can't say I really don't agree, but the Fusion, IMO isn't that great on the inside and I find the Sonata's interior materials and layout to be substantially better than that of the Fusion. Folks keep going on and on about how good the new Fusion's interior is, I think its no better than my Altima (and lord KNOWS I'm not praising that interior) Better than a Taurus, yes, but better than the Sonata or Accord? Don't think so.
Though, they did call the Fusion's interior generic and said it looked too much like the F150 (and I agree).
Also, I was a little iffy about Car and Driver mentioning how the Fusion didn't need "wood trim" or something like that on its Fusion tester (because it had the black interior) but the SEL with Beige interior has some of the UGLIEST wood trim on the market. Worse than even the Altima's wood trim.
I'm not surprised the Camry came in last. To be honest, it usually never wins comparisons. On top of that, the plain jane LEV6 model's interior looked cheap lookin in the photos.
The Fusion is doing pretty well for itself I must say. I wonder if Road and Track did a Midsize car comparison this month as well. All these magazines tend to do these test around the same time. I just wish the Altima, with its revised interior were put into these tests. I don't think the Altima would win the comparisons though, but I'm willing to bet it would beat the Camry. It seems all the cars are doing that lately.
I've owned Accord, Camry and Taurus. Had a Nissan once. Never a Hyundai. I'll always praise the Accords until they falter - they're solid cars. Not saying the others are no good - just not as good.
Never owning a Hyundai or Kia may skew my opinion against them even tho they may have improved their offerings. Went by my Ford dealer today to look at a Fusion and they didn't have any yet.
But its sooooo tough to beat an Accord. I'm considering an 06 TL - but for $6-7K less the loaded Accord could be a worthy option - altho the rear restyling isn't as attractive as the Sonata's.
The Sonata is just as capable I believe, I just think its a bit too bland, and its interior a somewhat cheap and generic looking on the inside.
But a new interior for the Sonata is coming, and the new Optima looks better exterior wise IMO.
That would be good to know. My car needs servicing in about 2,000 miles. I'll try to remember to ask. I don't notice how many are on the road because Honda only puts the badge [V-6] on the back of both cars, not LXV-6 OR EXV-6. its a shame, because I think the LX-V-6 is actually a pretty good value!
I was corrected on that mistake some time back--it's C/D and R&T that are owned by the same company, not MT and C/D.
The Camry LE's interior did look plain in the photos. Just as it does in person.
Think about it... the '06 Accord has been restyled. Didn't these MT editors notice when the Accord pulled up that it wasn't a '06, and definitely wasn't a LX? Couldn't they put a call into American Honda and say, "Hey, guys, we wanted a '06 LX V6--do you have any? Not yet? Could you send us a '05 LX V6 then?" I know darn well Hyundai would have supplied a Sonata LX had they asked (or at least a GLS with the 17" wheels), and Toyota would have provided a XLE or SE V6.
The Camry doesn't win many comparisons... except those done by the car-buying public.
Maybe they didn't have an 06 LXV6 built in time for the comparison and decided to send an 05 EXV6 instead. As many of us have pointed out already, the 03-05 Accord LXV6 hasn't sold well at all. LXV6 models historically don't sell. I bet the DX even sells better. So if they don't really sell well, they probably didn't fool with making many, and they probably had none to send. This is probably the reason the LXV6 added so much content for 2006. The "Value" wasn't there to many folks. Alpha himself, wasn't the biggest fan on the LXV6, but I believe he now likes the LXV6 the best overall in the Accord lineup. I know if I were buying, the LXV6 would be my pick now too.
When 06 models first hit the lots, all I saw were EX and EXV6 models, with the occasional DX and LX around. As a matter of fact, in my area, I see more EX Accords than LX models, though I know the LX is the better seller.
I really don't know why they didn't get an LXV6 in time. But didn't the writer point out that they requested an LXV6, asked for it, but was unable to get it in time for the comparison. No need in holding off a comparison test because the company couldn't send EXACTLY what you wanted is there? At least they got the V6 part right LOL.
Simply put, why don't you just write them and ask them about it? Don't they have a comments section or something like that in this magazine?
Agreeing on the plain jane look of the LE's interior. Gotta agree there. And I knew you were corrected and my sorry self forgot to mention that. I was just proving the point that the cars weren't the same exact cars in each comparison test.
And sure the Carmy wins the ultimate car comparison as being the number one selling car in America, but so what, the Explorer is like the Number one selling SUV, doesn't make it the best though
The Camry is a good car, but I find it strange that it RARELY wins comparison tests and nearly always comes in at the bottom. But isn't it CR's best rated Family Sedan or something like that?
I think if they had used an SE, it wouldn't have matter much. Though the SE is better handling than the LE and XLE, its still isn't better than the Sonata, Fusion or Accord in handling from what I've read. Can't say personally since I haven't driven and SE Camry since 2003. Things would have probably gotten worse for the Camry still, because the price of the SE would have probably docked some points, as it probably did for the EXV6.
The Accord is more expensive, sure, but take away Navi, and it isn't so bad compared to the Camry I guess. The Sonata represents the best value overall though.
I Can't WAIT to see the 2007 Camry and 2007 Altima!
Maybe if I had actually paid good money for the magazine, I'd write a letter that they could ignore (as my past letters to them) or respond to with a pithy quip.
The HAH is actually CR's top pick in the family sedans category now. Although they have also said that the choice between the Accord EX V6, Camry XLE V6, and (old) Passat GLX V6 is really a matter of personal preference, they are all so close. Since then, the all-new Passat has arrived, as has the new Sonata. And the new Azera will be out very soon, then early next year the new Camry and Optima. So it will be interesting to see what CR's rankings are come next April.
I haven't read the comparo, I've only heard there is one out by MT. After reading your posts, that is one of the worst comparisons. They should have done what edmunds did by comparing similarly priced models, or what C&D did by comparing similarly equipped models.
People on a budget go for the cheaper LX 4, but most V6 buyers go for all the goodies. Makes sense, given the rpice premium for essentially a bigger engine.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The Camry continues to be a great car, IMO, but I'm removing it from my personal list of 'recommended' models because its just too near redesign (unless it can be had at a fire sale price, which is likely...). With the redesign, I'd like to see some re-contenting of the LE V6 model to make it a better match for the Accord and Fusion.
With regards to the comparos, I would have rather seen the Camry SE V6, because I feel its a better value match for the cars tested, and because it has the better engine choice of its two V6s... in relation to the cars tested. Additionally, Id say the Camry SE would handle as well as the Sonata LX, where as the XLE doesnt.
~alpha
In my opinion, the Sonata got a few surprising punches from MT. So did the Camry, but they were a bit more deserved, the vehicle is entering its curtain call, afterall
~alpha
06 Honda Accord - 221 points
06 Ford Fusion - 205 points
06 Hyundai Sonata - 202 points
06 Toyota Camry - 199 points
I'm surprised that C&D included the Camry in the comparison since we're only about 3-4 months away from the new Camry's intro. It shows how well-engineered the Accord is when even in its 4th model year it can still beat the new guys (Fusion & Sonata). It will be interesting to see if the new Camry can beat the Accord since a substantially improved vehicle like the Sonata still fell short.
Surprised the Accord was so far out in front, and that the Camry only trailed the Sonata by 3 points.
~alpha
It's clear which car they wanted to win when they take plusses for one car and make them minuses ("hey, you could spill a Coke into the Sonata's shifter!") and minuses for other cars and make them plusses (road noise and tire noise on the Accord are dismissed as "the Accord's driver-involvement program.")
Still, a much better review than MT's, and a better choice of trim (except why the navi on the Accord?). At least they didn't end the article with some ridiculous suggestion to dig into your sofa to come up with the $4-6000 more for the Accord than for the Fusion or Sonata. They leave it to the reader to decide if the differences are worth the extra money.
Personally, I don't think that CD deliberately wants the Accord to win any comparison; the car itsels is a long time winner. Case in point is that if you check any recent midsize comparos by any publication, the Accord mostly wins. This from publications as varied as CD, MT, RT, Autoweek and even CR.
One thing is clear, both the Fusion and Sonata have come up well in the recent comparisons, so this means that we as customers have more consistent choices.
Unfortunately, even constructive suggestions are sometimes taken in a negative manner, due to the nickname I have.
The Accord wins these comparos because it's a fine overall package in a mid-sized car, with particular emphasis on handling that goes over very well with the car mag editors. For anyone willing to spend the extra money and deal with the tradeoffs, e.g. a smaller rear seat and road/tire noise, it's a fine choice. Before the '06 Sonata (I haven't driven the Fusion/Milan yet), it was my top choice in a mid-sized car. Now, if I were going to spend $30k for a car, it would not be the Accord but a base 3 Series. If I wanted the most car my money could buy, but without compromising safety, comfort, or fuel economy, I'd go with the Sonata. The Malibu Maxx would be another interesting choice for versatility (but not on topic).
~alpha
From your post. This is what I was referring to.
As for being 'poor' at noise insulation, earlier tests have documented this is not a fact. Of all these cars, the Camry is the only one that stands out in isolation parameters, the rest are all in the same ballpark, in fact the Fusion lets in more noise
I respect your choice; the Sonata is a fine automobile. However, 30k is not the real world price for an Accord EXV6; you can get one for around 24k sans navigation. I would still pick the Accord over a Sonata; I can't get used to the center stack (that is something I would be looking at much more than anything else) and also the overall refinement of the Accord (the Sonata is good, just not there for the last tenth for me).
However, like I said earlier, I am impressed with the acceleration as well as mileage figures that CD got for the Sonata, while these separately may not mean much, together they demonstrate that the new Sonata is technically very competent.
I know you can get an Accord EXV6 for much less than 30k; OTOH, I know you can get a Sonata LX for under $18k. So it's still a $6k difference in price. The difference between them isn't worth $6k to me, but for you and others it is. It's your money, you should buy what pleases you.
06 Honda Accord - 221 points
06 Ford Fusion - 205 points
06 Hyundai Sonata - 202 points
06 Toyota Camry - 199 points
I'm surprised that C&D included the Camry in the comparison since we're only about 3-4 months away from the new Camry's intro. It shows how well-engineered the Accord is when even in its 4th model year it can still beat the new guys (Fusion & Sonata). It will be interesting to see if the new Camry can beat the Accord since a substantially improved vehicle like the Sonata still fell short.
Impressive win for the Accord. I'll have to pay a visit to my local Barnes & Noble in the next few days. I took a test-drive of the 06 EX-V6 (with navi) about 2 weeks ago and was impressed by the improved handling, about as good as the 5AT Acura TL which I rented that day. That car was dripping in refinement. The ride is a little firmer but not as much as the TL. The power was great, the changed speedo/tacho font looks better, more Acura-like and the new 4th-gen navi is faster with more features. BTW, the 06 TL still has the slower 3rd-gen navi. Oh, one more thing, I also like those LED taillights, so bright you need shades. :shades:
C&D will always give higher scores to the drivers car, and penalize the more isolated one (which explains why the Accord usually beats the Camry). But, if you value smoothness and isolation from the road most of all, you might rank the Camry #1. All depends on what you are looking for.
Stuff like small trunk or lack of headroom is more absolute. Steering feel, etc. is subjective, and you really need to try it out and decide for yourself.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
One of my best friends has worked at the same Honda dealer for 15 years. He has said before that the EX V6 sells about 10 to 1 compared to the LX V6. The LX V6 just hasn't been that popular because in the past it looked like a stripper on the outside- no alloy wheels, even.
They may have rectified that for the '06 MY, only time will tell. The '06 LX V6 and EX V6 look identical from outside, the only main difference is the EX has leather and available navigation. They both have sunroof, alloys, etc.
I am so impressed with the several tests of the Ford Fusion that I'm going to test drive on this weekend. It's really a hot looking car (maybe even better than the Altima looked when it debuted in '02). The biggest mistake they made on it was not including a manual shift gate for the automatic. There aren't even traditional 3, 2, 1 positions, just D and L (still not sure what L does).
The Accord may be better put together, have a superior interior and more power than the Fusion, but the Fusion wins by a mile on looks over any of the other cars!
I drove a Sonata when they first came out several months ago and wasn't overly excited about it. It was pleasant, nice looking, decent power but I hate the interior. Very blah and something about the woodgrain around the HVAC controls just screams cheap to me.
The Camry- if I can't say anything nice, I won't say anything at all. I wonder if the Chevy Malibu would've beat it if they would have included it?
P.S. If you don't like faux wood, the Sonata's grey interior has faux carbon fiber (or whatever it is) accents instead of wood.
To sum it up:
06 Camry: You may want to wait for the new 2007 Camry, unless you get a great deal & prefer isolation over handling/steering "feel".
06 Sonata: A big improvement over the previous model, good value. It still falls short in some areas, but the gap is closing (fast). It should easily gain sales at the expense of GM, Ford and maybe even Toyota.
06 Fusion: A great start, reliability is still unknown.
06 Accord: Best-engineered, very refined & reliable with a European flavor. The "benchmark" of the class even in its 4th model year. It should be interesting to see if the new Camry can end the Accord's current reign.
Toyotas (including Lexus) that I've driven and heard about just don't seem to offer as much in driving dynamics as Hondas, Mazdas, and Nissans, which explains why the Camry never does very well in these magazine comparison tests. I think the '07 Camry will continue this tradition and prioritize quiet/isolated ride over sportiness.
The EX-V6 Accord has leather as standard; no cloth available on it. You may choose an LX-V6 and get almost all the features of the EX (minus automatic climate control, leather, heated seats) for closer to $25,000 MSRP, but all EXV6 models have leather.
I wouldnt be surprised if there isnt some orchestration on this done in the Far East. The timing of new models is pretty much fixed since all are on 5 yr design cycles so 'Yota will always be a year ahead of Honda.. but they 'jumped the gun this year to gain an advantage in the strong spring selling season rather than wait until August.
I agreee wholeheartedly on your last sentence about the '07.
Did you ever notice that in the comparos:
HonYota always has the bland styling.. Nissan is cutting edge
HonYota always has the same engines.. Nissan's always larger / more powerful
Honda always feels better to drive
Yota is always quieter
Nissan seems ?? in interior quality
Camry price = X
Accord price = X - 200
Altima price = X - 500
It appears Hyundai is trying to emulate 'Yota more than the other two but at thousands$ less.
In sales though the Camry continues to pull away from the Accord and Altima to the point that the Corolla is just behind the Accord now and ahead of the Altima.
Ok, for the record, I've already mentioned that the gen 3 (92-96) nailed the Accord in comparison tests by even C/D. Toyota can do it, they just havent in the past two generations (97-06).
You state "I'm almost sure that whatever Toyota puts out for '07 will be topped by the Accord in '08."
Well, thats fair enough, but the Camry is most likely going to have a 269 horse V6 that will significantly make up for the its power and efficiency deficit relative to the current Accord, and I doubt the Accord will top that power figure in its next generation, so that solves one of the big reservations about the current Camry. Additionally, look to the new Avalon. In the Touring trim line, handling is significantly improved over the previous generation, and its better even in the cushy trims. This would lead me to believe that Toyota will make similar strides with the SE model Camry, and other trims in general.
Finally, Toyota pays attention. A last place finish, even if by a three points, is never a good thing, and I'm sure they're looking for more consumer and press "wins" with the next generation. I'm pretty convinced they've recognized the more competitve marketplace, which is why they've crashed the redesign cycle by 6 months.... there's too many big intros/redesigns right now. Same reason why the Accord mid cycle upgrade was so much more extensive than in previous generations.
~alpha