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Comments
If you are right about the next Camry having 269hp, it would definitely make up some difference in performance, but remember that hp doesn't necessarily tell the entire story. Being the front-drive car that it will continue to be, Toyota better get a hold of the potential torque steer with all that power. I also hope that the new model doesn't get bloated up even more in size, as the current gen is already one of the biggest (too big for my taste). Far as handling goes, I agree that they will tighten it up, just as they've done with the Avalon. I'm not saying that Toyota can't make a well handling sedan, but I think they just pride themselves as being able to make the quietest and cushiest ride out there.
I just think that the previous and current renditions of the Camry are lacking in handlling, style, and steering feel more than anything. 269hp would be nice, but I still wouldn't consider it if they don't improve in the other areas.
I agree Hyundai's main target is Toyota. I think Kia is trying to compete more with Honda, e.g. they typically have sportier styling and handling than their Hyundai counterparts. We'll see if this conjecture holds up when the new Sonata-based Optima--slightly smaller than the Sonata and with a little more sporty styling inside and out, and probably sportier handling (what car does that remind you of?), debuts early next year.
May 92
May 95
Nov 95
Dont know about the other mags, dont really care about them.
Gen 3 represented the Camry's glory days, so to speak, lol
Also, its highly unlikely that torque steer will be an issue. Its not an issue in the FWD Avalon, and the 3.5L's torque peak is fairly high, at about 5 grand. Mind you, its not flat footed off the line by any means, though.
The new Camry has a lot to prove, and ground to make up- its behind newer entries now, in my opinion. On a tier system, speaking for model lines across the board, it seems to be:
Accord
Fusion, Sonata, Camry
Altima, 6, Malibu
(at least, thats howd Id rank them given my experience, preferences, and the opinions of the experts)
Wonder where the new Aura will fall into this schematic.
~alpha
I'll be contrary.. I think 'yota will continue with a middle of the road V6 not the Avalon monster. 80% of Camry owners will never consider a V6 so it could have 150 hp or 550 hp and it wont change 350000 buyers minds in the least. The C&D comparo is a bragging rights thing which affects maybe 50-60000 buyers. It says that this lame duck model V6 is 4th in a small market segment. In 5 months or so add a 4c HSD Camry to the mix with a new body style and interior, now you have a comparo with some interest.
What if the Camry did away with all V6's? For the small amount of buyers is it worth it? Ideas to consider.
Ok, let's say I'm looking for a family sedan and feel that I "need" a V6 for all of my multiple tasks. I find out that Toyota no longer offers a V6 Camry so I pass the Toyota dealer and go into the Honda dealer down the street. I know Honda has a V6 Accord and I plan to take a test-drive of one. The dealer has more 4-cylinders in stock of course and he/she convinces me to take first a test-drive of the 4. I'm surprised by the power of the 4 and begin to think what I could do with the money I would save. I realize the 4 would be enough for me & my family so I buy it.
The V6 models often bring in the customer, but that doesn't mean he/she will leave with one. Why are most Altima TV commercials for the V6 model when most people leave Nissan dealers with the 4-cylinder ?
not yet.
I dont think this will happen soon. Theres the matter of the Prius- why would anyone buy it. Right now, it succeeds on two of those counts- fuel economy better than a Corolla, priced similarly to a Camry V6. Theres just the issue of the power. If the Camry comes to town, already selling a gazillion copies, and adds in the power factor at the same price (dont forget the Prius is only slighty smaller inside than the Camry), then the only thing the Prius has going is its unique style and futuristic image. I dont know that will be enough to keep its clientele, some of whom came from Camrys anyway.
~alpha
Good luck to Ford cars period. My wife bought an Odyssey. We gave the Ford van a chance to get our money. But compared to the Honda it again looked and felt cheap. Ford's aura and "feel good" factor is nil compared to Honda and Toyota.
Ford needs to stick to trucks.
It will never happen. Most current 7th-gen Accord owners wouldn't even consider the Sonata. Maybe Ford will convince some potential Sonata buyers. As for Ford, if they rely on their trucks, the party is definitely over (or is it already).
All very good points.. What if the Prius was just a trial horse for the Camry?
The HSD Camry is decided already and will be built in KY. It is the next step in what I perceive to be a strategy begun 10 yrs ago just before the Prius was launched in Japan
1) Gen1 Prius ( test the waters )
2) Gen2 Prius ( mass production of one model )
3) 400H/HH ( High performance hybrid )
4) HSD Camry ( go for the center of the auto market )
5) GS450 / LS 460 - announced
6) Tundra, Sienna, RAV, Scion, etc..??
I'm going to guess tho that the HSD Camry will be directed to the basic V6 buyer who's not so interested in high-tech Prius features, but rather economy, safety and some performance. The Prius I think will always have the high tech cutting edge spirit - if it continues. It likely will also be on the 1.5L or similar so it will always be more economical than the 2.4L + HSD Camry.
Regarding the Sonata, Accord and Altima..
a) Hyundai has announced to have a Hybrid(s) in its near future. I believe that I read that it will be on the Toyota model rather than the Honda model.
b) the Accord I think is at a disadvantage in that they have painted themselves into a corner with the IMA linked to the V6. Without some revolutionary advances the IMA is not more efficient than the HSD so linked with the Accord's 2.4L it would be at a big FE disadvantage to the HSD Camry;
c) the Altima has been announced to have a hybrid option next year using Toyota's licenses.
Obligatory disclaimer: Just because I bought one does not mean that I am one of these Subaru cultists; in particular, I am neither a lesbian nor a tree-hugger
You are right about the Legacy being a formidable car (albeit not sales-wise) in the mid-size market, but this discussion is already a little stretched with these top nameplates. I originally created on of the discussions that became this one, and wanted to include the Altima and Mailbu as well, but the host decided it would not be a prudent discussion, with too many seperate discussions that would go on at the same time, confusing readers. After looking back at the current discussion and its explosive growth, I'd agree with the decision to limit the number of vehicles.
Feel free to start a discussion involving the Subie and a couple of these models, if you like. You dont know what people are thinking until you push some buttons, so get creative with the cars you choose, and happy blogging!
i'm guessing here a bit. HSD is some kind of hybrid diesel? the cost of diesel fuel is taking some of the shine off that. it's like when vw started promoting their 'tdi' cars. the price of diesel jumped.
~alpha
Thanks for the info. I went to a dealer to check out and test drive the Sonata a month or so ago. I must have looked at 10 different cars and they all had the tan interior with the wood trim. All the photos in the car mags have the tan interior as well. I had no idea the grey had metallic/carbon fiber-like trim. I'll have to check that out. I just hate wood (plastic or real). I guess it comes from all the GM cars I rode in growing up. The wood trim on their dashes actually looked like self-adhesive woodgrain Con-Tact Paper.
I'm sure many people cross-shop the Accord and Camry, but there are plenty of people who buy the Accord that wouldn't buy a Camry and vice-versa. The new Camry may achieve higher sales numbers than the Accord, but I don't think Toyota has any desire to build a car very similar in feel to the Accord.
The Camry may sell better for years to come, but the Accord will always appeal more to those who actually "enjoy" driving.
Just curious about your tier system. So you're ranking them as Accord in #1 spot, Fusion/Sonata/Camry #2 spot and Altima/6/Malibu #3 (and lowest) spot?
If that's the case I'd agree to some degree, although I'd think Fusion and Mazda6 would deserve a spot right below Accord. Their looks, driving dynamics and handling account for a lot to me. It would have been interesting to see Mazda6 or Altima included in this comparo, but I understand why they weren't. The poor Altima, despite looking great, is a bit long-in-the-tooth. I'm also anxious to see how well the Aura will compare. Looks great so far, but GM is just so good at mucking things up.
You are correct sir. The two have a totally different feel. The Accord is sportier and the Camry is softer.
Both fine vehicles tho at the top of their class - no doubt. Not sure how a Fusion will win over folks that usually buy CamCord.
Wait, that actually sounds more like Asheville, NC.
Behind the fancy trimplate, the current Accord radio is a cheap design (small single DIN size, low Audio output) and it has lousy tuner perfomer also. Take the radio off the dashboard and see. In fact, the new radio in the Sonata probably runs circle around it on every radio test.
So Honda does pay more for the radio appearance and button feel. But that is about it. And I have no doubt the Fusion radio with its simplitic Ford corporate look has no problem outperforming the Accord radio either. Honda radios are not known to be outstanding on either tuner reception or Audio sound either. That is OK for most people since they like the mechanical aspect of Honda vehicles. We have the 05 Odys and its radio is not the strong suit either.
BTW, Chrysler radios typically are high on JD Power list of good performance and reliability. Some newer GM vehicles have exceptional new radio design in term of look and user interface and of course good tuner performance. So do not judge the radio by its look.
jt
I have no doubt the Accord would take first slot and the Camry fourth, but wonder whether the Fusion or Sonata would fare better. We may never know...
C&D actually did a comparison in 2003 I believe with 4 cylinder mid-size sedans. The Accord came out on top.
I recall that one and yes the Accord did win. Motor Trend also did a comparison of 4-cylinders with manual transmission including Accord EX and Mazda6 i. It was a summer '02 issue. Accord won that one, too.
I was saying that a comparison of the four cars in this test would be interested. I haven't seen any test data at all on the 4-cylinder Sonata or Fusion.
When you put lipstick on a pig you still have a pig underneath
Only thing that was useful I thought were the hard facts (minus the Camry number problems), not the "editorial." The Accord and Sonata ran pretty much neck to neck in speed, including the higher ones. The Accord shows it's strength in gas mileage doing so however. The Fusion is faster than I thought it would be, in no doubt mostly due to the 6 speed transmission and the Camry does pretty well too at "only" 190 HP.
I think that's highly debatable for the Camry right now. Looks like the Accord, Fusion/Milan, Sonata, and I'm sure the Passat have overtaken the ol' Camry. But next year, that's another story.
Re 4-cylinder comparos, another mag that does those is CR. It will be interesting to see their take on these sedans. I predict they will rank the Passat at the top of the current crop of mid-sized cars (as they did for several years when the previous Passat was fresher), followed by Accord and Sonata. Unless they wait until the new Camry is released for their test...
I agrees that at the end of the day, no-one cares that the car has best or average sound system as long as it makes decent sound. But people do care if the engine and transmission will last more than 36 months. I love my 05 Odys overall. But I have no respect for the way its transmission shifts and the booming noise the engine makes at 2000-2500 RPM. This is the range that most of drivers use in our daily driving. BTW, Accord drivers with VCM (cylinder cut off) option, are complaining about the similar thing. So cross our fingers on Honda's Automatic Transmission and hope that just a VCM signature and not the same old AT problem again.
jt
Yes it is "only" 120 watt, but it does its job a lot better then Hondas vehicles say 5-6 years ago, where they were nothing to get excited about.
Almost forgot, Edunds also rewieved Fusions Audiophile optional stereo, and was less then thrilled.
I drove the new Passsat with Dynaudio, and that radio was awesome-would I buy Passat-no.
Secondly, while I haven't seen the full test in print yet, I will say that the Camry, whether it be an LE, SE or XLE, is not geared toward fun/sporty. That doesn't necessarily mean something negative, but rather most magazines favor sporty/fun in favor of soft and (for lack of a better term) boring. I think the Camry is great car, and with a new model on the way, will definitely be better. However, this test illustrates that Ford has done something right with the Fusion and deserves credit. To call it a rebadged Mazda 6 is a bit like calling the Acura TL a rebadged Accord. The 6 is intended for sporty driving with a secondary focus on comfort. The Fusion does a much better job of balancing both of these roles without a high price tag.
Lastly, while the Sonata is a great car, it doesn't do anything great. It is average in almost every way. While, as in the Camry's case, that isn't necessarily something negative, it isn't exactly groundbreaking either. Hyundai has done a good job with the new Sonata, but I don't expect many people to fall in love with the car on appearance or performance. I think people are more likely to appreciate the nice package and price, and decide to save some thousands over the Accord and Camry.