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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion
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This sector is a tough crowd. Ford taking on CamCords? And the new Sonata? They need a better offering to do it. A few refinements could go a long way.
I liked the car's styling tho.
FWIW, the Fusion can be had with moonroof, and things like awkward looking door pulls are PURELY subjective. The Ford's handling capability, for example, can be measured objectively.
Mind you, I'm not particularly a Fusion fan. But its the best middle price sedan produced by an American company, in my opinion, and holds its own against the Camry, Accord, and Sonata.
What it lacks are standard safety features (ABS, side curtains), available safety features (stability control), V6 power, strong ergonomics. The price point could be a bit lower, though, $26.5K fully loaded... with no stability, no NAV, no Bluetooth...
~alpha
Say what you will about the Fusion being too loud or rough around the edges, at least it attempts to appeal to some segment of the populace. And it's quite fetching. Likewise, some folks poo-poo the Sonata for being too conservative, but its lines are elegant nevertheless. What is going on at Toyota? The styling just keeps getting weirder and weirder.
First it was the Avalon and then I saw the Echo (everyone's fave hat on wheels) replacement, the Yardos (Shriners of the world rejoice). Can someone say "clown car"? Now comes this Camry... with a grapefruit-sized zit on its face that looks like it should've popped three days ago.
I keep hearing how Toyota is selling so many cars. But where? Is there some mystical land out there where everyone drives a Camry, wears checkered polyester pants and drinks rich, chocolatey Ovaltine?
Toyota, send this one back please. It's not done yet.
We also tested the FusionV6 (along w/ Maz6, Altima, Accord, Camry, & Jetta) and we found the Sonata GLSV6 to be a better choice for us. If all the comparable vehicles were priced equally only the Accord would have prevailed over the Sonata for us.
Back to the Fusion, it was a nice overall package, but there seemed to be less refinement compared to the Sonata. Hard to pinpoint, just a general feeling we had about fit&finish, also a bit of road/wind noise that wasn't apparent in the Sonata. The V6 also wasn't quite as eager as the Sonatas, although plenty quick. Gotta agree about that grill, it's hideous~the Milan looks so much better, and I also dislike the "boy-racer" white-clear tail lenses. Just a bit too much of a "look at me" style for my taste
~driver
IMO Ford did a good job with the Fusion's grille. It says "look at me" but what have the boy racers been turning Honda Civics into for years? Big deal. IMO the Fusion looks way better than the raciest looking Civic you can find in Lost Wages or SO-Cal put together. Ford done it right, gentlemen. If I didn't want a subcompact like the '06 Kia Rio I would test drive the Fusion.
Kia is producing a 2007 Optima that looks to pick me up above all four of these and put me into car balance once again. Only I don't want or need a car as big as these 4 or the 2007 Kia Optima. Kia just designs the bodies better and packs more value wallop than all four of these other carmakers. OK, I'm waiting, slap me upside my head, now. Right there-do it. Get it over with and move on. :surprise:
Seattle 28, Pittsburgh 17. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Allow me to correct iluvmysephia1's sudden case of dyslexia.
That should be Pittsburgh 28, Seattle 17 (or less). Jerome and the boys are on a mission and ain't no one stoppin' them! :P
I haven't sat in, or drove one myself but don't you think you're picking at nits a bit too much.
Sure the HVAC controls are low but you can order them on the steering wheel too for very little money. The center stack on my Mazda6 is a nightmare. But having the audio controls on the steering wheel, and the automatic climate control takes all the pain away because I don't have to deal with all the buttons. BTW the HVAC controls in the 6 are way at the bottom too. I never heard anyone complain about their placement.
Low quality controls? So the others compared here don't have any of those either? I bet I could find one or two.
If you want more than D and L buy a stick shift. I've been driving for 17 years and have NEVER used anything other than D.
How often do you go under that hood?
Nothing wrong with a good door pull that anyone, short or tall, can use comfortably.
You can order a moonroof so why mark that as a negative too?
I've never had a vehicle with a power seatback tilt so I must be missing something there. I can say that I've never had a problem with the manual tilts though.
I understand the Fusion isn't going to be the choice for everyone. But it sounds like you've grown so accustomed to a particular brand that giving another a chance would be like pulling your teeth out with the old slam-the-door method. :surprise:
I've owned both Japanese and U.S. branded vehicles and both have their pros and cons. You learn to live with them. Especially if they're as minor as some of the things you pointed out regarding the Fusion.
1. Volkswagen Passat 3.6 ($33,315)
2. Honda Accord Hybrid ($30,655)
3. Volkswagen Passat 2.0T ($27,440)
4. Toyota Camry XLE V6 ($27,680)
5. Honda Accord EX V6 ($27,365)
VERY GOOD:
6. Honda Accord EX I4 ($23,800)
7. Ford Fusion SEL V6 ($26,025)
8. Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 ($22,995)
9. Toyota Camry LE 2.4 ($22,065)
10. Nissan Maxima 3.5SE ($33,080)
11. Nissan Altima 3.5SE ($28,280)
12. Hyundai Sonata GLS 2.4 ($21,345)
If you want to all of the results, go to the mid-Size comparison thread.
It seems that the Accord and Camry still stand strong.
I
I
car, which can be bought for under 18000? If I had
33000, I wouldn't buy either. Although it is fairly humorous that the Sonata beat the Maxima, which costs almost twice the Sonata.
Post #2329 lays out the picks from CR. I personally never take the recommendations of a mag that compares toasters. Besides, its been proven over and over that CR data is flawed and bias.
Someone at my work just bought a new Sonata V6 in Maroon color. Car looks nice. Trying to find out who?? so I can talk to them more.
I honestly think Honda and Toyota days as class leader in this segment are numbered. As more consumers venture out for something different, something new their sales will become stagnent. As more consumers realize they don't need to spend $$ for value, reliability and quality.
Given the initial reactions to the new Camry, with the Accord right behind next year, Hyundai and Ford have a lot to do to keep up. The 'pass the leaders point' just got pushed out a full 10 yrs. The view from the press is that the this Gen6 Camry will shoot sales out to nearly 500K units. Add also..
Class-leading fuel economy;
Class-leading V6 performance;
20 yr rep which only gets better.
That's hardly stagnant.
The Sonata is good but it'll be at least 5 yrs before it's perceived to be in the same class as the CamCord by the general public. Individuals may be vehement in it's praises, and maybe rightly so, but the public... that's much a bigger task.... and the Sonata better be damn near perfect during that 5 yr period or it'll be "same ol', same ol'".
Hyundai, in fact, is very similar to Toyota when it first came to this country. Right now, the cars are improving, running with the class leaders- the Camry and Accord.
Personally, I think the new Camry lineup is an extremely powerful force to be recognized, with a unique Hybrid powertrain offering that is more mainstream than the HAH, and a V6 that outpowers the class. The four cylinder line-up is comprehensive as well, if not class leading in its 158 horses....
That said, it wont be long before Hyundai is REALLY making Toyota sweat if they progress at a pace as they have recently.
~alpha
So the '07 Camry will have some great features, like an available hybrid powertrain and a high-powered V6 engine. But at what cost? What about all those people who want a roomy, comfortable, reliable, safe family car but don't want to spend $25k? They won't be buying the V6 or hybrid Camry. They might buy a Camry CE. Or they might spend even less money and get a Fusion or Sonata, and get more power, equal economy (with the Sonata), and better standard safety features (again with the Sonata).
They do not have the infrastructure to beat the CamCords in the immediate future, say 5 yrs. If they develop this and prove their reliability in this time ( 5 yrs ) then the next 5 yrs will be a real alley fight. That's all I'm saying.
I also think that already Toyota has put an Hyundai-fighter strategy into place in the event they have to move quickly. Nissan, Ford, and maybe even Honda in that order might be victims if there is an all out brawl.
What they want specifically is the most basic vehicle they can get, this Gen it will be the CE, as long as it's built by Toyota. Nothing has changed in this regard.
But the growth for the Camry line will come from other areas where the Camry has rarely been a player. Now it is. In additon, the TCH will likely add about 50-75K units of new owners. The bread and butter will still be the base models but the sizzle and growth will be in new areas.
Toyota set the standard for power. I am quite sure the new Altima, Accord, 6 etc... will produce as much or more. The Sonata refresh may possibly get quite a large power boost.
This is absolutely true and since the base models and the frugal customer is so important that they are concerned about Hyundai. This is a segment that they cannot lose. It's the foundation of the line. I think it's why they are restyling it upscale and adding a lot of features as standard. It's to keep the loyal owners in the fold.
Inertia is a big advantage. Unlike GM and Ford, Toyota and Honda have done nothing to piss off their loyal buyers to make them leave. Both are fighting tooth and nail to keep these owners. The Sonata's growth may very well come from GM, Nissan and to a lesser extent Ford if it refuses to put a worldclass 4c engine into the Fusion.
Sure Toyota and Honda have a positive reputation right now, but trust me when I say that I think there are a lot of Americans that would love to buy Ford or GM instead if the companies offered a product that is significantly better. The 300c proves that. The Avalon, looaded and priced comparitively, though an outstanding product, does not hold a candle to the 300C in consumer's minds. Up until mid last year, dealers were still charging a premium for a 300C. I also think the warm reception of the Fusion, even though it was introduced in only 6 cyl and then 4 cyl when everyone had their year-end drives going and had very little incentives proves that people like to change every now and then. Sonata sales as well signify that people like to be different. I think Toyota's days of 400K plus Camry sales are actually numbered. I think the market is adjusting just like the overall market and EVERYONE will have to share market share, no more blow outs.
I also think it has gained some weight and even with the more powerful engine will still run 0-60 in Accord numbers. I think they all will be comparable. The Accord can't go too much further north. I doubt we'll see a 300hp Accord or a 280hp Accord for that matter. I think Ford's 3.5 250 will probably provide similar numbers to the new Camry. And Hyundai will ahve something around their also. At some point when we are all racing around in the 0-60 in seven and six second range, only separated by points of a second, it all just won't matter.
As I've posted before, there's still a good chance we're going to see a Fusion SVT which will be priced right around a loaded Camry V6 if history serves us right. Will people be willing to sacrifice ride comfort for the added performance though?
The new Camry does not impress me. I think the styling is a little more polarizing but not as good as say a Fusion or Mazda6. I think the 4 cylinder (the bread and butter) does not offer any significant benefits over the competition.
I agree 100%. Why did they beef up the V6 model when no one buys it? What are they aiming at?
We talk about Ford and Hyndai having a hard time winning buyers back with quality. Toyota's in the same boat when it comes to performance IMO. Who in their right mind has the word "sporty" pop into their head when they see or hear the word 'Camry'? :confuse: I can't name anyone, can you?
Not everybody wants to drive an econobox Camry CE. If you have your car 5+ years tha'ts a long term relationship that is enhanced by nice features and comforts.
Maybe Camry is cedeing part of this market to the low end player, Hyundai. Demographics are changing. So will the makeup of cars sold to baby boomers, who obviously pumped CamCord #'s off the charts in the past.
I think the high-end Camry market will definitely swell. Many people have a lot of money now and with SUVs waning in popularity, a loaded Camry will be attractive.
I agree 100%. Why did they beef up the V6 model when no one buys it? What are they aiming at?
leadfoot
I think the high-end Camry market will definitely swell. Many people have a lot of money now and with SUVs waning in popularity, a loaded Camry will be attractive.
kdh
Very interesting point! It had not occurred to me but you're right, there is a lot of buyer interest now to move into something more fuel efficient as long as it's not an econobox or Prius or mini-sport model a la the Si/tC.
These buyers are used to spending $30K+ for a vehicle, generally with lot's of features and glitz. This is by no means the normal profile for a CamCordAltDai buyer. Toyota is certainly targetting a more upscale buyer with this new product mix. As an example the new XLE V6 when loaded with Navi will be likely in the $30K range, maybe a little more. This is $5000 lower than the last gen Avalon for a vehicle with significantly more power, better FE, more safety/convenience features and nearly the identical size.
Are they giving up on the base model high volume Camry's. I dont think so. This will be an alley fight with at least 4 players. But there is a lot of volume down there. Again as long as they and Honda don't do anything to turn away their current buyer base, remain competitive and keep their eyes open for significant shifts I dont think the sales will shift dramatically.
IMO sales gains across the 4 entrants in this alley fight will be from other manufacturers who don't want to get down and slug it out; GM, DC, Mitsu, maybe Nissan we'll see. Sonata growing by taking away Camcord buyers is not likely. IMO I think it will grow by taking advantage of other dissatisfied buyers. The Fusion has a huge resevoir of former/current Taurus owners to draw from it will likely succeed there but without an superior entrant in the 4c battle I dont see it taking any volume away from the transplants.
I see a 'keep what ya got and grow at the top' trend coming.
Not only is it likely, it is happening. Take a read through the Hyundai Sonata discussions here and see all the cases where Sonata buyers looked at Accord and/or Camry before buying a Sonata--or actually own(ed) a Camcord but bought a Sonata. I think this trend is affecting the Accord more than the Camry right now, but the Camry is vulnerable too, especially if OTD prices increase with the new Camry.
I also see where the 2007 has added approximately 150 lbs. Where did that extra weight come from?
Now if that begins to change, and the auto marketing depts check this, then I think you will see Toyota and possibly Honda shift into a more agressive strategy. Toyota for one can certainly afford it.
Again I see Hyundai's growth coming from the legions of dissatisfied owners of other makers. These buyers are prime 'conquest sales'. If they've heard about HonYota's well deserved reps for reliability and value, shop them but find that the Sonata appears just as good and thousands less expensive then the Sonata wins because there is no brand loyalty with this group.
To be honest I finally feel that there are alternatives to the Camry. Even a year ago I wouldn't have considered anything else. For the first time ever there is a Ford sedan that I actually like and it comes in the form of the Fusion. That car really is attractive. I've seen two in my area. I see a lot of Sonata's in Dowtown Washington, DC where I work. So people are obviously liking those. The Accord I'm still not privy to.
But let's be honest here. People are basically putting the existing Camry out to pasture when comparing it to a new Sonata but come on...its a NEW Sonota that is FIVE YEARS newer than the Camry. What do you expect? Something would be seriously seriously wrong if the new Sonata--with five years of advancement over the Camry--came out and it still couldn't hold a candle to the Camry. Same when comparing to the existing Accord. You can not fairly compare a brand new Fusion or Sonata with an Accord or Camry that first debuted FIVE YEARS AGO. That's like people saying, "Yeah the new Avalon wins hands down over a 2004 Avalon. It was so much better". Its like, well duh its better its a brand new car! A more fair comparison would be the current Fusion/Sonata against the 2007 Camry/2008 Accord. That is fair. When I see that pathetic Sonata commercial trumping how its better than the Camry I'm thinking how stupid does Hyundai sound. A car that was just completely redesigned as compared to a car that was last redesigned 5 years ago. How pathetic.
Anyway I think the Accord, Fusion, Sonata, and Camry are good cars but for my own personal reasons I'd still choose a Camry over the competition. I'm one of the only men in the world who isn't really considering "fun" when driving.
I agree. I was once a loyal Toyota customer, and the first 3 new cars I bought were Toyotas. Then in the mid-80s the luster began to wear off as Toyota's offerings were more boring than, say, Honda's, and started getting pricey (and dealers started getting haughty). So I switched to Honda and bought a couple of Civics. Then I went into the minivan phase of my life and went with the best minivan of its time, the Caravan. For my next minivan, in '99, I wanted to consider the Odyssey but was put off by the attitude of the dealer, and the take-it-or-leave it pricing of the Odyssey, so I bought another (Grand) Caravan and it served me well. Then I decided to downsize and looked for a 5-door hatchback. Really wanted a Prius, but at $22k for a basic model it was more than I wanted to spend at that time. The Matrix was another option, but over $17k equipped the way I wanted it. Honda had nothing for me. But I could get a loaded Hyundai 5-door for $13k. So that is what I did.
Relating this back to this discussion: you say that HonYota has not made the big mistakes to put off their Camcord customers. I submit that they have, in terms of dealer behavior (not that other makes are immune to that), and in terms of value. I think HonYota is beginning to see the light there, and is beginning to add more feature content to the Camcord and other cars (while offering new low-priced cars to compete directly with the Koreans at the low end). But once they turn off a buyer (like me for instance) who then takes a good look at the steadily-improving competition, they may find they have lost that customer.
Truth here..that's what they have to avoid.
I think the high-end Camry market will definitely swell. Many people have a lot of money now and with SUVs waning in popularity, a loaded Camry will be attractive.
kdh
Very interesting point! It had not occurred to me but you're right, there is a lot of buyer interest now to move into something more fuel efficient as long as it's not an econobox or Prius or mini-sport model a la the Si/tC.
I don't buy it because it didn't happen with the Accord. At least not yet.
The Fusion has a huge resevoir of former/current Taurus owners to draw from it will likely succeed there but without an superior entrant in the 4c battle I dont see it taking any volume away from the transplants.
But Ford isn't looking to take over any sales crowns right away. They have consistently stated that they have nothing to offer Explorer and F-150 owners who need a second car and the Fusion is now that car. Apparently the number of F-150 owners who have a Camry, Accord, or some other mid-sizer parked next to the truck in the driveway are staggering.
They can only build 300,000 Fusions/Milans/Zephyrs combined right now so if they can sell half as many Fusions as Toyota sells Camrys they're doing well.
This is why the 4c doesn't matter as much. Initial numbers from Ford show that they expect 60+% of Fusions to leave the lots with a V6 under the hood. The Duratec30 doesn't compete with the V6s from other makes but it's a nice in-between choice that doesn't hurt you on the sticker price or at the pump.
I think you said $30k+ for a loaded Camry V6? You might as well just buy yourself an ES330, an '07 Zephyr when the Duratec35 is available, or an Acura TL for that kind of cash. The Zephyr will have AWD by then to boot. And if it's the sporting aspect of the Camry, which has yet to be seen, you're after at that price you can do much, much better than that.
I'm still finding this hard to believe. Edmunds just did a first drive of the '07 and still managed to call the Camry "vanilla" and didn't buy the Toyota rep's claim that it's "athletic", "filled with passion" or "emotional".
Is Toyota using the same over-intrusive stability control system in the new Camry that has most journalists throwing their arms up in disgust?
And to that end, Car and Drivers recent article articulated (ha!) quite well the clear improvements in the Camry's steering and handling, but cited, as a result of the stability and traction control, that it is the "anti-sport" sedan. They said they would have given the vehicle a checkered flag on Toyota's claims were it not for the system. The rag, did however, priased Toyota for making the SE a clear standout from the lineup in terms of its chassis capabilities...the SE isnt a thinly veiled trimline.
Mind you, the system is NOT standard.....
To an earlier post- the Camry has gained weight due to structural reinforcement. According to C/D numbers, while the 4 cylinder doesnt offer improved performance, most will not notice a differnce- their SE 5M test vehicle was 3/10ths slower to 60 than their last SE 5M, which would not be noticeable through the seat of the pants, and I believe top-gear passing numbers were actually a bit better (as were skidpad and slalom).
One final interesting point: the article cited a 60% split for 4 cylinder models- this is very interesting. This means that the HYBRID and V6 will comprise 40% of the Camry line...
~alpha
for 5 years? Is that something like resting on your laurels? That's pathetic.
Well, the Accord hybrid is not a huge difference from the V6 model. I think Honda would have been better off with a 4 cylinder hybrid, like the Camry. Which would give a greater difference in fuel efficiency.
both the Accord and Sonata, I couldn't justify the large
price difference between the two, so got the Sonata.
I used to trade cars often, but kept my last Accord
five years, and I'm hoping to keep the Sonata at least
five years, and I won't have to worry about large repair
bills in the last two years, like I did with the Accord.
for 5 years? Is that something like resting on your laurels? That's pathetic.
Well the new Camry is coming out. I haven't driven it yet, but it seems great on paper. With 268 hp, this car is damn fast. I can't wait to drive this car.
I think Toyota took the first step into the "next generation" vehicles in the midsize segment.