I am also a female, who purchased a Scion tC manual in May of last year. In just over 6 months I have put about 12K miles on it - although I don't have a long commute. Before that I owned a '97 Grand Cherokee. Big Change!! I have to say, I love my tC. For the price I paid (right under $19K) - I got a brand new car with all the options I wanted. This is my first manual, so while I can't compare to other manuals, I can offer my insight from someone who basically learned on that car. I can't say I've had a problem with the manual - besides I've been killing it a lot more since the colder weather. . . But I was told that the clutch point changes, and I'm probably not used to it. Overall: tC is a lot of fun to drive. I'm guessing once you get used to the clutch it'll be fine. It isn't extremely smooth, but I guess I never realized that until you mentioned it. Maybe if it was too smooth, it wouldn't be fun to drive. . .? (Its not rough, though!) Here is what I like: Roomy back seat. For a 2-door, I've had guys who are 6' tall sit in my back seat with plenty of leg room. Its got pretty good acceleration and torque, I love peeling out when I have friends in the car! I have fit a 6' step ladder in the car w/o any problems with the seats folded back and down. Here are my complaints: This is my first 2 door car and I don't like how big the doors are when I'm parked next to another car. Although there is plenty leg room, the head room in the back is limited. (Although the back seats recline, which help this). My friend who is about 6'4" has to sit in the front seat, and its somewhat tight for him. (But he has never complained) I guess I can't compare this manual to others, but I can compare it to itself and I have been very satisfied overall with the car and the transmission.
Clutch points do not change when cold or hot, I'm sorry that someone actually told you that and believed it. Because it's not true at all. Any car that changes its friction point within the clutch has an issue. Stiffness when cold is one thing, but a friction point that changes shows me that the pressure plate isn't doing its job when cold.
Plus nifab wasn't complaining about the clutch, she was complaining that the shift points were not engaging correctly. And that "notchiness" is because the synchronizers are not engaging.
You are correct in that you have nothing to compare it to. You should drive another manual transmission car, and you'll see the difference. nifab was able to compare it to a transmission that was working properly (her own integra). So you also might have gotten lucky and got a rare "good" one, like the one out of 4 or 5 I test drove. But with that kind of success rate, nifab is correct in looking elsewhere. Im glad you're lucky and not having the issues others are having. Consider yourself blessed!
There is no comparison of the two cars. my civic i owned could not get out of it's own way, had horrible handling... to put it lightly the only thing it had going for it was the gas mileage. The tc has a more comfortable seating arrangement, better pick up, handling, breaking( when i slammed on the breaks in my civic it tended to have a light tale and would drift out a lot easier)and most of all a better appearance cosmetic wise. The one and only problem i have had with my tc is my radio would change stations on it's own out of no where, which was a malfunctioning radio they had in the 05 i must have gotten stuck with a left over....
So, you're comparing a model that debuted in late 1995 (the Civic you had) with a 2004-current Scion tC?
Don't you think the Civic may have changed a LOT (it has, trust me) since that 1.6L model?
I would certainly hope Toyota could match and defeat an 11 year-old design with something that is currently on the market. Sounds like they obviously have.
Yes i am because they never change my girl has a 06 and it drives worse than my 2000 did.
Ah, you never mentioned that. I disagree that they never change. I drove my grandparents in their 1997 Civic on Christmas Day, and can tell you it is MUCH different from my dad's 2007 Civic. Both are sedans, with Automatics.
Care to elaborate about your evaluation a little? "Drives worse" is pretty useless to me in figuring out what you don't like about the car. Handling? Ride? Steering? Acceleration? Just curious here, not trying to poke and prod... It might help other shoppers interested in these two.
The Civic with a manual runs 0-60 in the mid-high 7s I believe. The last Scion tC manual I saw was similar, so acceleration has DEFINITELY improved from the 106 hp Civics like your old one.
everyone is entitled to their own opinion of the civic yes it is great for commuting, be sure to bring your butt pillow though for the hard seats(How about those nice warm leather heated seats in the tc.The tc seats in rear tilt back for a more comfortable ride-civic does not). The stearing radius on the car is very limited. It also has many blind spots, the worst being the spoiler in the rear window. As for acceleration, the civic is a good choice if your not trying to pass someone when needed, expecially trying to drive the car filled with passengers. when breaking in the tc the center of gravity seems more centered than in the civic where the tail tends to drift out from behind you(mind you i am not talking from ten miles a hour, i mean emergency braking 30- 40 mph). The headlights give very poor light in the civic allowing very poor visability. The overall cosmetic look of the two cars is not close ,civic looks like my gramas grocery getter and the scion at least has some sort of sporty appeal. I think i read somewhere on here that the civic had one touch windows? Was that a special or something cause my girlfiends car only has it on the driver side. I could go on all day but i do have to work a little today.
Sounds like you made the right decision for you. We're obviously getting nowhere with each other (and I mean that respectfully).
Although i must comment on the seats, and on the visibility. You state that visibility is bad with the spoiler - since it isn't standard equipment, I don't hold that point to be true.
As for the seats, firm seats (sculpted correctly, and the Civic's are for my large frame, surprisingly) will support you much better than soft ones on long trips. They may seem too hard to some ( I can understand that ), but will definitely be better over the long haul.
what level of trim was your 2000? 2 door? 4 door? Si, LX, DX, HX, CX??
also the old civic 96-2000 wasn't that great for headlights. The tC is MUCH better! I do agree the Civic was bad for lighting. :mad:
the seats in the 96-2000 civic weren't that great, they didn't have a spring suspension to the cushions. Just foam and then the seat frame, that's it! So yes they didn't have much "give" making them feel hard. Seats in the tC have that spring suspension and feel much better!
In my opinion the tc has the civic beat by a long shot for looks. I own a 07 TC and my friend recently bought a 07 civic si and installed a turbo. We both agree that he would have been better off with the tc. the civic had no room under the hood for mods. He had to remove the frond bumper support to fit the intercooler. And it costs a lot less to get more horsepower for the tc
In my opinion the tc has the civic beat by a long shot for looks.
I guess that's why we all get one (an opinion that is). To me, the Civic Coupe looks a lot sleeker and sportier than the Scion's more bulbous and blunt shape. It's all subjective though...The Scion isn't bad looking at all, and I was close to getting one, but the interior left me unimpressed (the flimsy sunroof cover for one thing was particularly pathetic).
And it costs a lot less to get more horsepower for the tc
Well, that's going to happen when you start with an engine that is 33% larger than the standard Civic coupe's. The downside is fuel economy. The Scion's 2.4L gets about 8-10 MPG less than the Civic doesn't it?
It's just a matter of the two cars having slightly different priorities, I think. Both are in fact very excellent cars.
well pal thats pretty much the case for any aftermarket turbo! My buddy had to get a custom bumper for his 97 civic because he put a nice big turbo on it. Its common sense you are MODIFIYING the car. You can't expect everything to fit miraculously. The only reason it costs less as far as horsepower goes it only costs less becuase the si is fairly new. A camry engine, even modded, has nothing on a k series.
OH and looks are highly subjective. BUt the tc does look way more mainstream.
sometimes. but not always. Some of the most revered tuners are the ones whose cars look completley stock, with very small visual enhancements like a little bit of chassis lowering and not to flashy but good looking rims. All the work goes into the engine and drivetrain. Hence the 'tuning' aspect of it. Anyone can paint a car a silly color or put a awful muffler on it. (don't get me started on neon lights.)
I am looking into purchasing one of these. I love both of them but I am constricted by a $15,000 max budget. Would I be able to get either a civic LX coupe or scion tc (looking for auto) for that price? If not which one would I be able to get for less? Thanks
Scion dealers do not negotiate. Their prices are firm, something that more than one Toyota/Scion dealer told me. I don't think you'll be getting either car for under $15,000 brand new. You may find a one-year old used one for that, although I wouldn't get your hopes too high. Both of these are closer to $17k-$18k. A Civic DX is under $15,000, but is not very well equipped.
Are these the only two cars you are considering? For under $15k, you are more in line with subcompacts such as the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, and Nissan Versa if you are after a Japanese car. If you can stand a 4-door, the Hyundai Elantra offers a LOT of bang for the buck, with a midsize interior and a price around $15,000 nicely (if not ornately) equipped.
We looked and drove both (07) Tc and Civic EX. The Tc is more torquey, has more power, and it is very noticeable (both auto).
Mileage isn't even close tho, and that was big on our list. To be fair, so far the Civic isn't getting anywhere near rating, but I would expect the Tc to be off proportionally as well. But at only 30 highway, heck, my 200k mile v6 Camry did almost that good!
The Tc felt front heavy and not very nimble. The styling is a bit lackluster (all IMHO) and the waisteline (the lower edge of the side windows) is much too high visually. Looks are very important to me.
The driver's foot areas seemed cramped on the Tc, and I'm only 5-7. The driver's area just felt a bit crowded and it seemed like i was sitting in a bathtub. A very deep bathtub, and the bottom edge of the window seemed very high when hanging the arm out, uncomfortable even. Of course, I could have moved the seat up (assuming it does as on the CIvic), but then the headroom whould have been even worse. Visibility was a lot worse in the rear quarters, tho part of that could be just me and my preference for sitting on the ground.....
The Tc is definitely a good value, and can be had for almost 5k less. And the power differences are significant, and coming from that v6 Camry that was appealing. I've had 3 Camrys and a Highlander. I've never owned a Honda until now. I don't regret it one bit, altho it cost consideably more than a Tc. I just feel the Civic is a lot more car.
I know that turbo set up for the si is nice but i have to dis agree. At the time my tc just had a borla exhaust on it and i ate a 05 si at a 1/4 mile track a few times and it had I/H/E. Everyone know that was hondas step child but they do handle alot better than a tc. In my opinion get the new si for racing because with cams full exhaust intake and A/F management those have run low 14s with 220hp. Still you come out more expensive than a turbo tc but you will have a more reliable caily criver. On the other hand for a daily driver i couldnt deal with the tourqueless monster the si was. I test drove one and i got tired of downshifting to pass cars on the high way and when vtec kicks in i love the destinctive sound but its too loud compared to the predesesors. Im getting the best of both worlds though. My tc has a little go but nothing to brag about at all but then im building a 2000 gsr right now which stock beats the tc by about a car and some change. Tc's not a race car but if you put in the wrench time it can be easy. Just up to you if you want to boost your DD and worry about the countless problems you could run into if you're not FI inclined. Thats my $.02
the 05 si was nothing to write home about. it had the worst applied k20 ever. Great for a regular civic, bad for a car that says its the 'sport' version.
I agree that honda built the new si with tuners predominately in mind, thats why it doesnt' do so amazing in stock form other than the great handling.
Here we go with the vtec kicking in. Yes there are cam stages, but vtec is not totally inatctive like on the b series engine that your gsr probably has. Vtec is pretty much dead until it kicks in in the higher rpm ranges; i-vteck works differently. It has stages, but is always there.
Been really looking at these two vehicles but have yet not be able to drive a TC. The dealer cannot keep them in stock , all are pre oprdered. Driven the Civic coupe and it was shockingly horrible. Never owned a Honda so I guess I dont share the fanboy goggles as some others. The interior of the Civic is horrid. The dash is bigger than an old ford aerostar minivan and the windshield laid just as flat. In my opinion they completely destroyed the Civic interior and the exterior is nothing great either. That two tier dash is the absolute most ridiculous looking thing Ive ever seen in a car. Even the Xb funky dash blows it away. When I was done with the test drive I ran away as fast as I could. That car is just hideous, and seels on nameplate alone.
I think that it might be more clear if you were more specific about *what* is always there. I was under the impression that the valve lift is set up in stages (until A-VTEC comes out), but that the timing of the camshaft is what was continuously adjusted.
seels on namplate alone huh? Sorry, although the world is composed of various idiots, many of them DONT drive civics.
If the civic is so horrible, why is the Tc a hack job? Hmm...someone has no idea what they are talking about. :P
The aerostar comparsion was cute, but totally inaccurate.
The dash in the xb being way better? For someone who dislikes polarizing dash designs, i'm suprised a guage mounted TOTALLY out of your natural line of sight was appealing at all.
no haggle pricing doesn't mean there aren't discounts applied. It just means that the discounts are clearly marked and anyone can get them. Without haggling.
I've never understood people down-shifting to pass with an Si. I guess I'm always in the upper band, predetermining passing (i.e., being a perceptive driver).
Generally, I'm not a fan of cruising along crowded surface streets and highways with my engine spinning at 5k waiting for a golden opportunity to pass. Sometimes it's just more suitable to cruise in at a lower rpm and then shift and punch it when you have your moment.
wow pretty impressive. I like the scions packaging, but i would never take it over the civic.
one thing that honda needs to do is re-evaluate the conept of only including leather wrapped steering wheels in leather clad or sporty versions of each respective car.
I shouldn't have to special order a leather wrapped steering wheel for an ex at least. If the fit has one, so should the civic.
Apr 07 Civic sales (North America): 29,155 units Feb 07 (latest month available, assumed to be NA units) Scion Tc Sales: 4,399 units
that's a difference of 567%....and the Civic is priced considerably higher.
Doesn't that Civic sales number include ALL versions of the Civic? It's quite unfair to compare sales of 4-door, 2-door, hybrid, and Si models of the civic to 1 model of the Tc.
A more interesting (and valid) comparison would be to compare sales of the Honda Civic Coupe only to those of the Scion Tc. I bet the sales numbers would be much closer.
What's also interesting to think of is this -- I am glad that the tC is more rare. I wouldn't want something that everyone and their grandma has. Why be like everyone else?
Being different IS good, to follow the crowd isn't the best option. :shades:
so just because YOU don't like what I have to say, that makes me a troll? Too bad that everyone doesn't agree with you. If you don't like the tC, why are YOU posting here? hmm?
sure you could break it down further but I seriously doubt the results would be any different.
If you conservatively estimate that only 1 in 4 are non-Si coupes, that is over 7,000 in April 07. That's still almost 2x the Tc Feb 07 sales.
I'm interested in real sales numbers of the Honda Civic Coupe, not made up ones. "Conservatively estimate" is just another way of saying "I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air."
For the month of May 2007 Toyota sold 6,615 Scion tCs.
but i think that the whole sales numbers thing is irrelevant.
I only bring it up because of kenlw's post regarding Civic sales of 29,155 and tC sales of 4,399. If you're going to tout sales numbers as a way to make a point, then make sure you are comparing apples to apples (Civic Coupe versus tC), not apples, pears, peaches, watermelon, grapes to apples (all versions of the Civic versus tC).
I posted them as "interesting numbers", not "to make a point".
I posted the best numbers I could find and labelled them as they were. Nothing misleading, if you can find better (and the link certainly is a good one) fine. Good data is good data.
I clearly labeled the ones i posted and if someone can't figure that out, well, I'm wasting my time on them.
Should I also sort them by color? That's important to some folks, too.....
btw, I've owned 3 Camrys (91 v6 DX, 93 i4 LE, 97 v6 LE), a Highlander (02 v6). I know Toyotas and love them. But this time I went with a 2 dr Civic. Why?
Because the mileage on the Tc (my 2nd choice, the Corolla never made it past the "boring" cut) was much, much worse and for numerous personal (styling, ergonomics, etc) issues. Tc has some very good points (>HP, >torque, <$) but overall for ME, the 2 dr Civic won me over.
I park next to a nice Tc daily at work. Even he likes my Civic's looks better, but price was an issue (he paid about 4k less), so he went with the Tc. He got great car for his money. I could afford more, and therefore I paid more to get what I wanted.
i don't think that the tc is a horrible car, i just couldn't own one because all my sisters friends have one.
they both have good points, and then some not so good ones.
i do like the hp torque of the tc, but its safe to say that the civic is a better example of power in the sense of making the most out of engine size. And it does so while getting much better fuel economy.
Comments
I have to say, I love my tC. For the price I paid (right under $19K) - I got a brand new car with all the options I wanted.
This is my first manual, so while I can't compare to other manuals, I can offer my insight from someone who basically learned on that car. I can't say I've had a problem with the manual - besides I've been killing it a lot more since the colder weather. . . But I was told that the clutch point changes, and I'm probably not used to it.
Overall: tC is a lot of fun to drive. I'm guessing once you get used to the clutch it'll be fine. It isn't extremely smooth, but I guess I never realized that until you mentioned it. Maybe if it was too smooth, it wouldn't be fun to drive. . .? (Its not rough, though!)
Here is what I like: Roomy back seat. For a 2-door, I've had guys who are 6' tall sit in my back seat with plenty of leg room. Its got pretty good acceleration and torque, I love peeling out when I have friends in the car! I have fit a 6' step ladder in the car w/o any problems with the seats folded back and down.
Here are my complaints: This is my first 2 door car and I don't like how big the doors are when I'm parked next to another car. Although there is plenty leg room, the head room in the back is limited. (Although the back seats recline, which help this). My friend who is about 6'4" has to sit in the front seat, and its somewhat tight for him. (But he has never complained)
I guess I can't compare this manual to others, but I can compare it to itself and I have been very satisfied overall with the car and the transmission.
Plus nifab wasn't complaining about the clutch, she was complaining that the shift points were not engaging correctly. And that "notchiness" is because the synchronizers are not engaging.
You are correct in that you have nothing to compare it to. You should drive another manual transmission car, and you'll see the difference. nifab was able to compare it to a transmission that was working properly (her own integra). So you also might have gotten lucky and got a rare "good" one, like the one out of 4 or 5 I test drove. But with that kind of success rate, nifab is correct in looking elsewhere. Im glad you're lucky and not having the issues others are having. Consider yourself blessed!
Don't you think the Civic may have changed a LOT (it has, trust me) since that 1.6L model?
I would certainly hope Toyota could match and defeat an 11 year-old design with something that is currently on the market. Sounds like they obviously have.
Ah, you never mentioned that. I disagree that they never change. I drove my grandparents in their 1997 Civic on Christmas Day, and can tell you it is MUCH different from my dad's 2007 Civic. Both are sedans, with Automatics.
Care to elaborate about your evaluation a little? "Drives worse" is pretty useless to me in figuring out what you don't like about the car. Handling? Ride? Steering? Acceleration? Just curious here, not trying to poke and prod... It might help other shoppers interested in these two.
The Civic with a manual runs 0-60 in the mid-high 7s I believe. The last Scion tC manual I saw was similar, so acceleration has DEFINITELY improved from the 106 hp Civics like your old one.
Although i must comment on the seats, and on the visibility. You state that visibility is bad with the spoiler - since it isn't standard equipment, I don't hold that point to be true.
As for the seats, firm seats (sculpted correctly, and the Civic's are for my large frame, surprisingly) will support you much better than soft ones on long trips. They may seem too hard to some ( I can understand that ), but will definitely be better over the long haul.
also the old civic 96-2000 wasn't that great for headlights. The tC is MUCH better! I do agree the Civic was bad for lighting. :mad:
the seats in the 96-2000 civic weren't that great, they didn't have a spring suspension to the cushions. Just foam and then the seat frame, that's it! So yes they didn't have much "give" making them feel hard. Seats in the tC have that spring suspension and feel much better!
I guess that's why we all get one (an opinion that is). To me, the Civic Coupe looks a lot sleeker and sportier than the Scion's more bulbous and blunt shape. It's all subjective though...The Scion isn't bad looking at all, and I was close to getting one, but the interior left me unimpressed (the flimsy sunroof cover for one thing was particularly pathetic).
And it costs a lot less to get more horsepower for the tc
Well, that's going to happen when you start with an engine that is 33% larger than the standard Civic coupe's. The downside is fuel economy. The Scion's 2.4L gets about 8-10 MPG less than the Civic doesn't it?
It's just a matter of the two cars having slightly different priorities, I think. Both are in fact very excellent cars.
OH and looks are highly subjective. BUt the tc does look way more mainstream.
I don't mod cars, but it seems to me the point of it is to NOT have a mainstream looking car.
Are these the only two cars you are considering? For under $15k, you are more in line with subcompacts such as the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, and Nissan Versa if you are after a Japanese car. If you can stand a 4-door, the Hyundai Elantra offers a LOT of bang for the buck, with a midsize interior and a price around $15,000 nicely (if not ornately) equipped.
Mileage isn't even close tho, and that was big on our list. To be fair, so far the Civic isn't getting anywhere near rating, but I would expect the Tc to be off proportionally as well. But at only 30 highway, heck, my 200k mile v6 Camry did almost that good!
The Tc felt front heavy and not very nimble. The styling is a bit lackluster (all IMHO) and the waisteline (the lower edge of the side windows) is much too high visually. Looks are very important to me.
The driver's foot areas seemed cramped on the Tc, and I'm only 5-7. The driver's area just felt a bit crowded and it seemed like i was sitting in a bathtub. A very deep bathtub, and the bottom edge of the window seemed very high when hanging the arm out, uncomfortable even. Of course, I could have moved the seat up (assuming it does as on the CIvic), but then the headroom whould have been even worse. Visibility was a lot worse in the rear quarters, tho part of that could be just me and my preference for sitting on the ground.....
The Tc is definitely a good value, and can be had for almost 5k less. And the power differences are significant, and coming from that v6 Camry that was appealing. I've had 3 Camrys and a Highlander. I've never owned a Honda until now. I don't regret it one bit, altho it cost consideably more than a Tc. I just feel the Civic is a lot more car.
I agree that honda built the new si with tuners predominately in mind, thats why it doesnt' do so amazing in stock form other than the great handling.
Here we go with the vtec kicking in. Yes there are cam stages, but vtec is not totally inatctive like on the b series engine that your gsr probably has. Vtec is pretty much dead until it kicks in in the higher rpm ranges; i-vteck works differently. It has stages, but is always there.
Driven the Civic coupe and it was shockingly horrible. Never owned a Honda so I guess I dont share the fanboy goggles as some others.
The interior of the Civic is horrid. The dash is bigger than an old ford aerostar minivan and the windshield laid just as flat. In my opinion they completely destroyed the Civic interior and the exterior is nothing great either. That two tier dash is the absolute most ridiculous looking thing Ive ever seen in a car. Even the Xb funky dash blows it away.
When I was done with the test drive I ran away as fast as I could. That car is just hideous, and seels on nameplate alone.
dealers here have tons of TCs. Heavily discounted.
Might want to check the facts before you say things that are not true.
With b series vtec it doesn't do that until you are revving the engine up until its peak powerband.
i vtec may have stages, but its still working in low rpms. With older vtec is limited to the right side of your tach.
If the civic is so horrible, why is the Tc a hack job? Hmm...someone has no idea what they are talking about. :P
The aerostar comparsion was cute, but totally inaccurate.
The dash in the xb being way better? For someone who dislikes polarizing dash designs, i'm suprised a guage mounted TOTALLY out of your natural line of sight was appealing at all.
It's called a SALE.....geesh
All I do is step on the gas and pass. Everyone.
Sigh.
its nice to just step on it and pass.
Apr 07 Civic sales (North America): 29,155 units
Feb 07 (latest month available, assumed to be NA units) Scion Tc Sales: 4,399 units
that's a difference of 567%....and the Civic is priced considerably higher.
one thing that honda needs to do is re-evaluate the conept of only including leather wrapped steering wheels in leather clad or sporty versions of each respective car.
I shouldn't have to special order a leather wrapped steering wheel for an ex at least. If the fit has one, so should the civic.
Apr 07 Civic sales (North America): 29,155 units
Feb 07 (latest month available, assumed to be NA units) Scion Tc Sales: 4,399 units
that's a difference of 567%....and the Civic is priced considerably higher.
Doesn't that Civic sales number include ALL versions of the Civic? It's quite unfair to compare sales of 4-door, 2-door, hybrid, and Si models of the civic to 1 model of the Tc.
A more interesting (and valid) comparison would be to compare sales of the Honda Civic Coupe only to those of the Scion Tc. I bet the sales numbers would be much closer.
If you conservatively estimate that only 1 in 4 are non-Si coupes, that is over 7,000 in April 07. That's still almost 2x the Tc Feb 07 sales.
The Honda site already separated the 2,855 Hybrids:
http://automobiles.honda.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=200705013973
Being different IS good, to follow the crowd isn't the best option. :shades:
why are you here? Most places would label you a troll and ignore you.
deal with it bub..
ummm...because its a civc vs tc thread?
There is a lot of reasons why the civic does better.
I'll take the grandma civic over the girlfriend tc anyday. :P
If you conservatively estimate that only 1 in 4 are non-Si coupes, that is over 7,000 in April 07. That's still almost 2x the Tc Feb 07 sales.
I'm interested in real sales numbers of the Honda Civic Coupe, not made up ones. "Conservatively estimate" is just another way of saying "I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air."
For the month of May 2007 Toyota sold 6,615 Scion tCs.
Proof
Can anyone truly tell me how many Honda Civic coupes were sold last month? No guessing, please.
but i think that the whole sales numbers thing is irrelevant. We are discussing why WE think one car is better/different than the other.
Toyota sells a lot of camrys, but that doesn't mean i would take one over my rabbit. Just an example.
I only bring it up because of kenlw's post regarding Civic sales of 29,155 and tC sales of 4,399. If you're going to tout sales numbers as a way to make a point, then make sure you are comparing apples to apples (Civic Coupe versus tC), not apples, pears, peaches, watermelon, grapes to apples (all versions of the Civic versus tC).
Just trying to keep the discussion honest.
I posted the best numbers I could find and labelled them as they were. Nothing misleading, if you can find better (and the link certainly is a good one) fine. Good data is good data.
I clearly labeled the ones i posted and if someone can't figure that out, well, I'm wasting my time on them.
Should I also sort them by color? That's important to some folks, too.....
btw, I've owned 3 Camrys (91 v6 DX, 93 i4 LE, 97 v6 LE), a Highlander (02 v6). I know Toyotas and love them. But this time I went with a 2 dr Civic. Why?
Because the mileage on the Tc (my 2nd choice, the Corolla never made it past the "boring" cut) was much, much worse and for numerous personal (styling, ergonomics, etc) issues. Tc has some very good points (>HP, >torque, <$) but overall for ME, the 2 dr Civic won me over.
I park next to a nice Tc daily at work. Even he likes my Civic's looks better, but price was an issue (he paid about 4k less), so he went with the Tc. He got great car for his money. I could afford more, and therefore I paid more to get what I wanted.
to each his own.
i don't think that the tc is a horrible car, i just couldn't own one because all my sisters friends have one.
they both have good points, and then some not so good ones.
i do like the hp torque of the tc, but its safe to say that the civic is a better example of power in the sense of making the most out of engine size. And it does so while getting much better fuel economy.