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What is the GREENEST car out there?
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Comments
Based on the response both articles received from readers, I think most car buyers think about green only in terms of fuel consumed while driving.
Concepts such as fuel used or relative risk to the environment depending upon what raw resources are used, cost of recycling the vehicles, etc., seem to go right over people's heads.
-juice
Those CNW guys are full of crap......Not sure why they are so anti-hybrid, but their data is just flat idiotic.
They obviously did not take into account the "energy savings" of recycling of hybrids, which by design can recycle almost the entire car, in the 85% to 90% range. Does that happen with Hummers? Doubt it.
The only thing they got right was that the Maybach is a waste of energy.
Have you seen the enormous craters left behind from nickel mining? I'll try to find a pic for you...
-juice
I've seen one 10 times that big right next to a city. In fact it was so big it could swallow the whole city!
Just because you don't see the impact on the environment doesn't mean it does not happen.
-juice
The true issue is one of energy expenditures not just oil consumption. While we could add data related to emissions, the point was and is to keep it all very simple and concentrate on the broader issue of world energy requirements and generation, specifically related to the cars Americans drive.
So the energy expended by so many people in the effort to help keep the air CLEAN in the face of trillions of tons of Greenhouse gas emissions by these cars was IGNORED.
HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.............
"Greenshouse" gasses are not covered by EPA emissions here in the US, so those numbers would not have been discussed in any case.
See this page:
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/basicinformation.htm
CNW Marketing Research Inc. spent two years collecting data on the energy necessary to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage. This includes such minutia as plant to dealer fuel costs, employee driving distances, electricity usage per pound of material used in each vehicle and literally hundreds of other variables.
To put the data into understandable terms for consumers, it was translated into a “dollars per lifetime mile” figure. That is, the Energy Cost per mile driven.
-juice
But how do we measure that in terms of energy consumption, which was the goal of the study?
Besides, by those same standards Toyota has among the very worst engines in their trucks like the Sequoia, LX470, GX470, and Tundra. I know they are replacing that engine, but the 4.7l scored a 2 on that scale of 1 to 10, IIRC.
And Toyota sells a bunch more of those, yet the tiny number of hybrids they sell get them all the publicity.
Brilliant PR, but also very misleading to tote the company as being green.
-juice
The LX470 does not get a 2, it gets a 1! ONE out of 10!
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-LEXUS-LX470-06.htm
Shame on Toyota....
-juice
Toyota ALSO has more hybrids than anyone else.
Regardless of the "dirty side of Toyota", they do more on the "clean side" than anyone else does.
But look at the volume of sales - the hybrids represent a much smaller peice of the pie than Tundras do.
-juice
No, it's not.
People buy what they want to buy. The fact that more people want to buy Tundras than Priuses is not Toyota's fault.
Look at F150 pickups - more people in America want them than any other Ford vehicle, and that is not Ford's fault either.
As a car company, all you can do is PROVIDE clean cars - you cannot FORCE people to buy them. Toyota PROVIDES more clean cars than anyone else.
Yes it is their fault. You can go to any Toyota store and have your choice of Tundra PU. Color & Options. You cannot even find a Prius for sale on most Toyota lots. I believe it is planned that way. They only want to sell as many hybrids as they absolutely have to and still maintain that faux green facade. You can sugar coat Toyota all day and they will still smell like a rat.
Notice how evern at the outset, they have a bias against Toyota.
There are simply MORE BUYERS who want a Tundra. It has nothing to do with limited supply of the Prius. If there were 250,000 buyers a year wanting Priuses, Toyota could supply all those cars, no problem.
Priuses FOR A WHILE were rare and scarce, but right now they are not. Maybe in Cali they are still rare, but that's because all the lefties want one to show how Green they are.
Every Toyota dealer in Phoenix has two or three Priuses on the lot every time I drive by.
I think if you look at the record. Prius and Tundra both sold about the same amount last year. Wanna bet which was easier to find? You can go to the Prius thread and there are still people on wait lists for the Prius. It is a Contrived shortage nothing less. There is no reason for there not to be as many Prius available as any other car. I was at two dealers in the last month to look at the FJ Cruiser. San Diego Toyota had neither FJC or Prius, they had a row of Tundras a block long. El Cajon Toyota had one FJC and one Prius and a whole back lot filled with PU trucks. The simple truth is they do not want to lose one single opportunity to sell a PU truck and they could care less if you buy the Prius. I think it is still a loss leader. Of course we have hashed that out before. If it is not true why aren't the Prius readily available after 7 years on the market. Prius sales are off by about 25% from last year this time. Yet people cannot get them without a wait on both coasts. Where are the promised hybrids of every color. They are the color green alright. Green back dollars. They have done nothing but raise the price. Where is your dream of every one owning a hybrid? I can tell you it is not Toyota's dream. It is more like their nightmare. I have to believe you have plenty of hybrids in AZ. I think two posters went to Phoenix to buy the Camry Hybrid that is now the car they love to dole out to eager buyers.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/14254279.htm
Even with Prius shortage, Toyota gains vs. GM, Ford
By Frank Michael Russell
Mercury News Assistant Business Editor
Toyota continued to gain ground against U.S. automakers GM and Ford last month, even though it couldn't make enough of its popular Prius hybrids to keep up with demand.
The Japanese automaker said its sales were up 7 percent in March compared with a year earlier, driven by a 15 percent jump in truck and SUV sales. But Prius sales were down 22 percent as production problems slowed down Toyota's effort to supply the high-mileage gas-electric vehicles to its U.S. dealers.
Ford, meanwhile, said its sales were down 5 percent, mostly because of shrinking interest in its SUV lineup. Car sales were flat, but truck and SUV sales dropped 7 percent. Ford Explorer sales were down 25 percent.
Another one:
http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1127
Prius Shortage Won't Improve `Until Later This Year'
Toyota PriusIf you're in the market for a new Toyota Prius, you're probably in for a long wait. According to a report today from Bloomberg News, sales of the gas-electric hybrid were down in April, but that was because of a production shortage, not a decline in the vehicle's popularity.
So, it appears that the Prius shortage is related to "production problems" and not "We are Contriving to Make Them Scarce To Keep Popularity Up" problems.
That gives credibility to my argument. Prius production by Toyota is being stone walled. Toyota does not want to sell anymore hybrids than they need to keep the green glow. If you could go into any Toyota store and have the same selection of Prius that you do Camry or Corolla I would say they are wanting to sell the Prius.
IIRC you made some statements a couple years ago that Toyota would get production up to demand by early 2005. It is now the middle of 2006 and they are still dragging their feet. No problem getting a big ramp up of RAV4 V6 gas guzzlers. They are up 53% over last year. Amazing how Toyota can build vehicles when they want to.
Hybrid harbinger
By Jon Newberry
Post staff reporter
Zoom MELVIN GRIER/The Post
Joseph Toyota's sales and leasing consultant Jim Steinau talks with Marion and Bill Cooley before they take off to test drive a 2006 Prius.
ADVERTISEMENT
Just as Toyota is starting to sell hybrid versions of its popular Camry sedan, U.S. sales trends of Toyota's groundbreaking Prius hybrid are slowing for the first time since consumer demand surged more than two years ago.
The timing isn't mere coincidence, nor is the cause a shortage of willing buyers for Toyota Motor Co.'s gasoline-and-electric-powered Prius, according to company officials. Rather, the problem is that there are even fewer Priuses available than there were last year, when waiting lists often stretched to six months.
"Production numbers are a little lower this year at the moment. We're basically selling all we can get," said Sam Butto, a Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. spokesman in Torrance, Calif. "It isn't from a lack of interest from the public. That's for sure."
The car that led a revolution away from gas-guzzlers was a novelty when it was introduced, its image instantly polished by movie stars commuting around Hollywood in theirs. Today, you're more likely than not to pass a Prius on your Interstate 75 commute. They've gone mainstream as gas prices have gone up and hybrid technology has proven itself. Given the public's embrace, automakers are responding by building more hybrids.
Ironically, production capacity for Priuses in Japan is constrained because Toyota recently began making Camry hybrids - which are just hitting West Coast showrooms - on the same assembly line. That should change later this year when Toyota's manufacturing plant in Georgetown, Ky., starts producing a hybrid version of the Camry. It will be the first Toyota hybrid made in North America. Until now, all the Toyota hybrids sold here have been imported from Japan.
When Georgetown begins producing hybrid Camrys later this year, it will initially source its hybrid components - including specialized electric motors, generators, transmissions, and batteries - from Japan. But Butto said the recent shortage of Priuses isn't tied to a scarcity of hybrid components. "I don't think that is the problem. It's basically a shortage of vehicles," he said.
Victor Vanov, a spokesman for Toyota's North American manufacturing headquarters in Erlanger, Ky., said start-up of Camry production in Georgetown should help alleviate the Prius shortage.
"The ultimate goal is that when Camrys are being produced in Georgetown, that will free up capacity for more Priuses in Japan," he said.
ANYWAY, they have a 2007 model year goal of 170,000 Priuses sold in the USA - I just got an e-mail from a Fleet VP whose e-mail I acquired at one of the Toyota websites.
That's far from killing it.....
As far as the Camrys being built here - It's because the Camry is already 80% "American built" and they already have the new Kentucky plant readied for Camry production.
As far as that 94 MPG hybrid they showed off in the UK. It was just trying to get some interest in the EU. Hybrids are all but dead outside the US and Japan. Funny those are the two countries with little diesel exposure. I think they can make the Camry as cheap as the Prius and get $3k-$5k more for them. That is the reason for the cuts in production. Right now the Prius is off from last year by 12% with people waiting for them. That would not happen with any other vehicle after 3 years on the market.
I can see you are still blind to Toyota and their evil ways. At least Ford & GM do their deception right out in the open with the "Stick a Corn Cob up your Tail Pipe" E85 scam. You got to love the fact that the EPA gives GM a 33 MPG rating on a vehicle that gets 11 MPG on E85. It ought to help the big two sell lots of FF trucks and SUVs. Kind of caught Toyota off guard on that one.
They are not doing that. They are building the HYBRID CAMRY in the PRIUS factory in Japan. Then they are going to build the CAMRY HYBRID in regular Camry plant in Kentucky.
I think a 270,000 sales goal in the USA for the 2007 Prius speaks volumes - if they are planning that many, that means they have their production issues settled.
I saw large projections by Toyota back in 2004 for 2005. They squeaked out a bit over 100k last year. Then they had big numbers for 2006 and if the first 5 months are any indication of total yearly sales they will be lucky to provide 90k Prius this year. It is just plain fishy. And if you remember as I do. Toyota produced the Prius II in the Camry factory to start with. You are saying they cannot build a Prius in a Camry factory in KY? With people waiting for the Prius they could not expand operations here or Japan to meet that demand. I am not buying it for a second. It is business as usual for Toyota. Hold the carrot hybrid, while you push the gas guzzlers to the max.
Don't get me wrong it is the capitalist way. Sell what makes you the big bucks. I just want the green image exposed for what it is. The only thing green about Toyota are the US greenbacks being stashed in a Tokyo bank.
Yes, same way they PROVIDE more dirty trucks like the many models with the old 4.7l.
New Toyota Motto: we provide the most options rated 2 or lower out of 10.
-juice
Least Green Machines
Dan Lienert, 07.10.06, 12:30 AM ET
Pickups and SUVs dominate our first-ever ranking of the market's least environmentally friendly vehicles.
Bill Ford, chairman and chief executive of Ford Motor, frequently touts the company's environmental friendliness. Ford was the first American car company to offer a gas/electric hybrid vehicle that could run on electricity alone (the Escape Hybrid SUV), and 10.4 acres of plants grow on the roof of the automaker's Dearborn Truck Plant.
But our first-ever ranking of the least environmentally friendly new cars isn't just dominated by pickups and SUVs; five of the seven cars on our list are made by Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ). And though domestic manufacturers are rolling out low-emission gas/electric hybrids, such as General Motors' (nyse: GM - news - people ) Saturn Vue Green Line SUV, all seven of the market's least green cars, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's most current data, are American--strong evidence that U.S. automakers are not as serious about clean vehicles as their foreign counterparts are.
-juice
He found he could get all the CAFE brownie points by making his big trucks and SUVs flex fuel. GM & Ford could just dump the small cars and concentrate on the big money vehicles by making them all FFVs. No penalties and more profit. They cannot be making any money with the Cobalt and Focus.
Diesel environmentally friendly is an oxymoron.
Cruis'n
ModCow
One of the euro mags held a diesel vs. hybrid comparison test and naturally they took a highway road trip to measure fuel economy. The diesel won (duh!). Such vacations represent, what, about 10-15 days out of the year when we're on vacation?
Do the same thing on a routine commute, where most people are in the a city or at least in stop-n-go traffic. The hybrid would win easily, and that's where you tend to be about the 200+ days per year that you work.
-juice
And Honda has SIX cars in the Top 30.
Toyota has FIVE cars in the Top 30.
VW has only their THREE dirty diesels.
I have e-mailed JD Power about this study to try and get their reasoning as to how they could come to such an unreasonable conclusion.
VW cannot even SELL 2007 models of their TDI cars in the 5 clean-air states because they are so dirty.
The "world's cleanest diesel car" cannot be sold in the USA clean air states either.
Even Mercedes' new BlueTec is not clean enough - they will only sell it in 45 states, and that is with urea-injection technology. :sick:
-juice
Yet, they beat them.
I think the issue is, what is "green" exactly. Diesel does have some more particulate and NoX than petrol. On the other hand, it achieves better fuel economy, has more of a path to renewable fuel, will likely last longer, and have less of an environmental impact in manufacture and disposal.
VW had the Phaeton and Touareg, which are basically guzzlers in the big picture.
-juice
not sure how'd you'd figure it in, but it should be figured in
Come to think of it wouldn't the truly greennest car be one that has quit running and stays parked all the time?
You have to be careful of this thread could easliy go off on irrelevant tangets and become utterly meaningless.
YOMV,
MidCow
Example: Lexus are reliable, but they have a "replace to not repair" policy, so a lot of used parts are discareded. That creates a lot of waste.
VW replaced so many ignition coils that they could not build them quickly enough and dealers ran out of stock. Where'd all the bad ones end up? I hope they got recycled.
-juice
I'd say "longevity".
Some very reliable cars get worn out very quickly, and some unrelaible cars will run forever if you swap a part or two a year.
I know midcow was kidding, but there are very real complexities in this field (yes, it is a "field")
the longevity issue is an interesting one, since you'll burn more fuel in your car over its life than was used to manufacture the car (including all the materials and components in the car). I assumed otherwise, but I was edumacated on that issue.
in fact, longevity may be a bad thing - we ain't doing anyone any favors driving a 25-year old Bronco that gets 13 mpg, are we?
maybe what you guys are saying is that we can't possibly know which car is greener - it's too complicated - so we shouldn't discuss it
I can buy that
What if a car makes more pollution during its operation but lasts twice as long? Will there be less pollution than running a cleaner vehicle but having to build and dispose of another one?
How do you compare a car that makes less pollution while driving versus a car that makes less pollution during its manufacture and disposal, if lifetimes are similar?
How do you compare a car that uses less of a highly refined fuel, fuel that took more energy to produce, and caused more pollution during its manufacture?
That's why i think it's pointless to attack VW. Depending on the coefficients, a VW TDI may or may not be "greener" than a similar hybrid.
And i think we ought to agree that both a TDI and an insight are a step forward from a suburban.
We care about the environment right? Not an attachment to one particular technology?
I'd like to see that study done using the actual average life of a car. They can get the registration data from RL Polk.
Then rate the cars on the amount of energy they use per year.
-juice
I don't see how some cars that are so similar can have such different numbers. For example, a crossfire rated 1/3 the energy cost of a SLK. However, a crossfire is just a reskinned SLK.
I also have a hard time believing that an h2 can be so energy efficient compared to, say, an impala. Maybe there's some old machining tools for which the cost has been amortized for a long time, but there's just so much more steel/rubber/plastic being both produced and disposed of in the end. Never mind the fuel economy...