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And how do you know that I do not have any experience with BMW? My brother had one before he traded it in due to the numerous electrical gremlins especially with the Idrive . So for folks who prefer the driving feel - they go for BMW. And for those who like isolation - prefer Lexus. Doesnt mean one is inferior. Just shows your opinionated thinking. No wonder folks like you think road feel and agility are the greatest things whereas for other folks those things dont matter. Different strokes for different folks. :surprise:
I think Lexus' biggest impact was pricing. The Germans were inflating pricing steeply right before Lexus was a success...in 1992, right when the impact was starting to be made, a 500SEL based around 85K in raw dollars, 19 years later a S550 isn't terribly more expensive, and a bit cheaper adjusted for inflation. I think Lexus had a big hand in that. It also made the Germans panic to cut costs, resulting in several years with some lackluster models...but they seem to be coming out of it. In the end, the buyer does win.
New Years Eve should have worn off by now.
My post was more about Toyota continuing their incentives into 2011, seeing that they lasted a lot longer than originally proposed.
Now Hyundai is putting pressure on the luxury brands with Equus and genesis. but to do that I feel they need an entirely different brand. It is not a question of if but when. You cant sell a $60k Equus next to a $10k Accent . They are infact planning to introduce an entirely new luxury brand in the future. And that will put even more pressure on L/B/M . So innovation becomes the name of the game and different buyers can choose what options they prefer. :shades:
They almost didn't. My wife bought her 1990 LS400 in late 1989, replacing a MB 300SD. She liked the looks and the price. The handling was atrocious compared to the Mercedes and she complained a lot. They eventually changed the suspension at no cost to her and it was a big improvement. It still handles pretty well 21 years later for the tuna boat that it is. I don't think we would buy another Lexus, mainly because we don't like the dealership or the looks of the vehicles. We did look at the 2007 GX460 when we bought the Sequoia. I thought it was cramped in the second row and looks top heavy. Different strokes.
I don't see the Equus as it is now being any kind of real threat to the establishment in the way the LS was - it's not relatively as good. Weirdo KDM styling and debatable suspension tuning will also make it a tough sell in the world market - where Lexus itself has had a tough go of it.
We all have opinions, sport, & I won't apologize for mine. In any event, my opinion is based on personal experience: my wife is on her 2nd Lexus, while I have a BMW 330i equipped for maximum fun, with the sport package, high performance tires & 5-speed stick. (My car is almost 10 years old, BTW, & has given me no trouble.) My hunch is that I have more personal first-hand experience with both brands than you do.
The Lexus is a big, overweight nose-heavy boulevard cruiser that's happiest on an Interstate highway with the cruise control turned on. It has its virtues: comfortable seats & an excellent climate control system. And it has its weaknesses: it's a total bore to drive, with numb, unresponsive steering. (Does Toyota use Novocaine for power steering fluid?) It hates curves in roads. You don't drive it; you ride in it while hanging on to the steering wheel. When we take it on long trips, as we sometimes do, I let my wife drive. It's a passenger's car, not a driver's car.
I don't think that anyone has ever used the words "Lexus" & "fun to drive" in the same sentence.
Good description. There are a lot of such cars out there.
Not necessary that your experience is similar to others.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It is a fact - not my opinion - that my BMW has been as good as any of our Japanese cars. Keep in mind that my experience with Asian cars goes back to 1974, when I bought a new Honda Civic. We've also owned Nissan & Toyota/Lexus products along the way, so we have a basis for comparison.
For me, I prefer to use my personal experience and those of people I know well that I am sure can give me accurate, unbiased reviews of their cars, like friends and relatives. They, I am sure, will NOT give me biased views of cars because toyota " influenced " them.
In addition, unlike Nissan and other more global companies, toyota has remained a very purist " Japanese " mindset. Despite doing business all over the world and their biggest sales comes from the USA, their board of directors are all still Japanese.
Perhaps they think that only Japanese automotive executives are smart enough to deserve a board seat. And that they think (with some arrogance) that nobody else from toyota US, toyota Europe, toyota China, etc... is good enough to be a toyota director.
Contrast that with companies like Nissan where the board is composed of people from many countries and cultural backgrounds. They really believe in getting the best from all over the world. Small wonder from my experience their cars are excellent !
If I am to use one word to describe toyota's mindset, its " Japanese chauvinism ". Like during the early days of the Pacific War when the Japanese thought their warriors are the best and can beat anybody. Well, Midway and Guadalcanal taught them bitter lessons abt underestimating your adversary.
And what if gas keeps going up to 6-7 dollars ? As gas goes up, cars like the Leaf makes more and more sense ! Hybrids, mind you, means you still have to buy gas.
The LEAF, unlike the prius, have ZERO emissions and ZERO gas needs ! You save money AND the environment too ! And maybe someday, a polar bear will really hug and kiss you !
When gas goes up so does the cost of electricity and other utilities. Unless you got a good deal on Solar and live where the sun shines most of the time, while working the night shift I don't see much gain buying an EV. Right today buying electricity in San Diego to charge up a Volt is a wash with any vehicle that gets 35 MPG. Not sure how many miles you would get with a Leaf per KWH of charge.
And if you are a magazine man, not just 1 million, even $200,000 goes a long way....And for toyota, that kind of money is spare change. Very very cheap to get people to believe those ratings and keep buying toyotas because if the magazines say so, it must be true.
The BEST way is to use your own experience and those of others you know well and trust. Thus is probably the best way, even though hardly close to perfection too.
Perhaps the USA operates differently than Cd, but I doubt it. Here our gas is taxed. Every single gallon, and while I am not sure of the breakdown, our cost is greater due to tax than the price of oil, by a huge margin.
My point, is that if enough people switch from gas use, and the bills aren't getting paid from too few taxed gallons being sold, they will just start taxing your electricity bill. Surely most can appreciate that relatively basic fact of nation operating costs?
And I didn't even touch on the environmental ramifications (if ya wanna go down that controversial road) of producing that electricity if much of entire nation is on charge..
If you study history, you will realise that German engineering is excellent, and goes back a long time. I remember during ww2, they make many excellent weapons, like the Tipe XXI submarine, the world's most advanced submarine in 1945, the Messerschmitt 262, the world's first combat jet fighter aircraft. The Tiger, Panther, King Tiger tank series that really scares Sherman tank crews. The Focke Wolf 190D, a mean machine that rivals the American P51D Mustang.
The Japanese also made some good weapons, like the Zero fighter, the Long Lance torpedoes, the Shiden " George " fighters, but if I imagine Germany and Japan going to war in 1945, the Germans have the upper hand because their engineering turns out more great and advanced weaponry.
Anybody who underestimates German engineering just does'nt observe enough. VW will not be the King in China if their quality is as bad as some Americans think. FYI, in China, VW is MUCH bigger than toyota. The Chinese understands and appreciates German engineering like I do.
And from what I know, BMW and Mercedes is still the brand of choice for the rich Chinese, NOT lexus. And even Buick outsells Lexus by a large margin in China.
Maybe those dumb and ignorant rich Chinese should start reading jd power and realise they are buying the wrong stuff ! But they may have noticed that BMW, Mercedes, Buick, VW etc don't suffer from SUA cases, as an example. And that their own experience and those of their fellow millionaires / billionaires indicate that BMW / Mercedes / VW / Buick cars are GREAT !!!
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging#/leaf-electric-car/- faq/list/charging
" Based on a US average of $0.11/kWh, a full charge will cost about $2.75. It could be even less, if your area has time-of-use rates and you charge at off-peak hours. "
" The national average electricity cost is $0.1147/kWh. That means the average cost to charge the car would be $2.75 from Empty to Full. "
Now do your maths, can hybrids achieve that kind of low costs even if gas goes up ?
Just one example:
suspension vs iDrive issues
And in order to be 'great', car repair costs should better correlate with the price of admission in the first place. 1800 dollar water pump replacements on a Golf, is enough money to replace it on a Benz or A8. I just read that somewhere, and probably they had other work done at same time and the 1800 dollar figure stuck as a bad memory...but that aside...parts are not known to be all that affordable on even entry level Vdubs.
And cant compare any 1970 Asian product to recent ones.
and gas used to be a nickel a gallon too..
you seem like you are fairly intelligent, but your thinking outside the box skills on this are a bit lacking IMO.
Q: Since the Nissan LEAF solely runs on electricity, would charging from home dramatically increase my electricity bill?
A: Based on a US average of $0.11/kWh, a full charge will cost about $2.75. It could be even less, if your area has time-of-use rates and you charge at off-peak hours.
Q: How much will it cost to charge the car at a charging station? A: The national average electricity cost is $0.1147/kWh. That means the average cost to charge the car would be $2.75 from Empty to Full.
Now if I may ask, even if all cars change to the LEAF tomorrow, do you really think that electricity rates will skyrocket from $0.1147/kwh to like say 5-10 times ?
I don't think so. And if everyone converts to electric cars, imagine the big amount of savings, and imagine the amount of money that the folks at Saudi Arabia / Iran etc will NOT get paid. Those cost savings are surely enough, and that the government do not have sufficient reasons to increase taxes / electric rates.
Imagine if 10 million cars becomes the LEAF tomorrow. Imagine the HUGE decrease in gas savings for the nation. Those are real savings, not fantasy.
And what controversy is there abt the good these cars can do for the environment ? ZERO Emissions is real for these cars. If people get so excited abt the less emissions emitted by the prius, why now suddenly one thinks its a controversy ?
Is it because the LEAF is NOT a toyota ? Wake up folks, toyota is not the only one with solutions to the environmental problems.
Look at what Wikileaks have revealed. Even at high levels of government, corruption takes place and on bigger scales than you can imagine.
Your thinking is all based on today's rates and level of usage! Supply and demand applies here if ever it would.
As for electricity rates, my rates here have doubled in less than 8 years. And THAT is at today's usage were people are expected to cut back and are even 'rewarded' with lower rates off peak times.
Now OK imagine if electricity rates rise 50%, same as increase in gas prices. The LEAF now costs $4.125 to top up. Now show me how much does the prius costs to top up and to run every say 100 miles vs the LEAF ?
Its not even a close match. And again the polar bears will love you for that !
For one thing, I am NOT a proponent of Prius purchases or the tech, and never have been. On the other matters we are too far apart to meet anywhere near the middle..
Maybe they had a Volkswagen of somewhat recent vintage?
Now that they are making them in Chattanooga, I'm sure the electrical issues have all been worked out.
Of course GM and Nissan use that 11 cent per KWH figure. In San Diego one of the target markets for the Leaf our rates are graduated. The more you use the higher the price per KWH. Most months I use enough to get to 34 cents per KWH. So an EV would be charging at that rate. The other caveat is the tax credit. I never know from year to year if I will have to pay AMT. If that happens the year I buy one of these EVs or Volt, that is $7500 I don't get back on my taxes. Too many IFS with buying these new technologies for my conservative thinking. Of course it has nothing to do with Toyota as they are still not sure they want to risk their fragile existence on the Plug-in Hybrids.
That is the very reason several states including CA are looking at taxing by the mile. CA has a love/hate relationship with the Prius. They know the vehicle adds less pollution to the air. Yet it costs them in loss of tax revenue. A few states have added a tax to hybrid license fees to make up that difference. My understanding is installing one of the Leaf charging units the utility is requiring a separate meter. Well that will make it very easy to ding the EV driver for the lost gas tax.
Is that a California "innovation" or is it in all three of the areas selling EVs?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/jul/24/chattanooga-vw-incentives-largest- -state/?print
I'm sure all those tax breaks will give VW more money left over to spend on engineering fixes. Maybe they can loan some to toyota to fix their cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Using my CURRENT rate of 34 cents per KWH, it would cost $8.15 to charge a Leaf. If it goes 75 miles that is 11 cents per mile for electricity. A Prius getting 50 MPG which is common only costs 10 cents per mile when gas hits $5 per gallon. So the Leaf will not be practical in So CA until gas reaches $5.43 per gallon. At which time my top electric rate could be 50 cents per KWH. And we do not get a lower night rate. The other option for those of US in So CA would be to spend an additional $30,000 for a solar system. hmmmm :sick:
I cannot imagine an electric rate so high?
I'll report my average rate when my bill comes today from Dayton Power and Light.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota's incentive package from Mississippi for the Tupelo factory totaled $293.9 million last I looked, so they are doing ok.
Crunch time - is there a consensus on the new topic change yet?
You been watching too many Al Gore lies. Is this close enough for you on the polar Bears. There are more polar bears in the World than anytime in recorded history.
Maybe you would like to be real close. :shades:
I agree that some Hondas are known for road noise, but generally Toyotas are very quiet. The Sienna is very quiet, FWIW. Toyotas are actually known for isolation, though I'm sure there are a few exceptions.
"Will Toyota be in Heaven in 20 11?"
It rhymes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You have to do that when all your competitors have even bigger incentives. It's just the market right now.
I'm sure everyone was expecting a quicker recovery - ain't happenin'!
Not true...53/47 is hardly nose-heavy:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/lexus-ls-460.html
People stereotype Lexus so much that they feel like they can just make stuff up!
The Leaf's range is extremely limited, and that alone will make it a low volume, niche vehicle.
So it's not a feasible answer at all for most folks.
I take it you didn't get the memo about the VW scandal with the prostitutes? LOL
I agree, but all large luxury sedans depreciate quickly. Go price a 5 years old Audi A8, as wonderful as they are.
But let's use the EPA's lower number anyway, give the Leaf that handicap.
Let's also assume electric costs do not go up, again best-case scenario for the Leaf, a 2nd handicap.
It'll still cost you $349 a month to lease one if you include the $7500 incentive, or $396 per month total.
Now let's assume gas does hit $5/gallon. If you drive 12k miles/year, we'll use a low-ish 44mpg average for Prius buyers from the EPA web site, that's $1364 per year in fuel costs, or $114 per month.
From Toyota's web site, their lease is currently $239 a month, add $114 in expensive $5 gas and you're at $353 per month, still well ahead of the Leaf.
Gas would have to hit roughly $7 per gallon for the Leaf to break-even, and that's with the impossibility of electric rates staying flat.
And you would still have a car that can't go more than 73 miles (under ideal circumstances) round trip, or half that one-way - a radius of just 37 miles.
You can buy a Leaf over a Prius for other reasons, but it won't save you money no matter what.