Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Toyota on the mend?

1232233235237238319

Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can buy a Leaf over a Prius for other reasons, but it won't save you money no matter what.

    The only reason I would buy a Leaf is to be different and use it for running errands. No way I could justify it from a financial standpoint. Same goes for the Prius unless you have a fairly long commute. Financially I am better off driving one of my 3 paid for vehicles, even if gas goes to $10 per gallon.

    By the way it looks like the EPA used the ridiculous 5 cents per KWH that GM was touting way back when for the Volt.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Not true...53/47 is hardly nose-heavy

    How about 61/39 for the ES 350, which is what my wife drives?

    ES 350 Specs

    My frame of reference is a rear drive 3-series BMW, which is 50/50 or damned close to it. So for me, the ES is a nose-heavy hog.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    looks like the EPA used the ridiculous 5 cents per KWH that GM was touting way back when for the Volt.

    That explains the $47/month being much lower than the more realistic $80 something per month figures for electricity costs.

    Point is - you will NEVER break even with a Leaf. I'm even ignoring the cost of the 220 volt charging station, and using the best-case scenario.

    With a Prius at least there are break-even points, if you drive enough miles.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Look at the subject, we were talking about the LS model specifically.

    The 3 series has good balance but it's much smaller than the ES and RWD, meaning it competes with the Lexus IS. For the IS the 2008 model was 52/48 but another source says 54/46. Call it low 50s.

    It's closer than people would like to think, and better than Audi for instance.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Millions of recalled Toyotas SEVEN, in 2011?" :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I expect I will see a lot of used Equui (sp?) in the 'hood in a few years!

    With those big 24" rims with tons of chrome.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota: Hell or Heaven in 2011?
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Look at the subject, we were talking about the LS model specifically.

    And also about tax credits for VW & a half-dozen other assorted subjects...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sorry, I meant the subject of your post.

    Lexus LS460L loses to Hyundai Equus

    The ES is nose heavy, but not all Lexus are.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited January 2011
    That is ridiculous. The GS is priced and comparable to the 5 Series and E class while the LS is priced and comparable to the 7 Series and S-Class, always has been and always will be. Even the reviews and comparison tests are set up that way by all the car magazines.

    The LS has held its own against the 7 and S. Buts its an aging model like the rest of the line-up. But the GS has been a sales failure for Lexus. Its probably their Achilles heal right now in their line-up. Its due for redesign for 2012, so is the ES so will see what changes are made and if it can help its sales or not.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The GS and IS are about to get redesigns, and yes they are the weakest models in the current lineup.

    The LS is doing just fine, holding its own against fresher competitors. The ES and RX are doing extremely well.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2011
    Excellent lap times in C&D's Lightning Lap, it now matches the M3 and beats the C63 by more than a full second around VIR:

    31 3:05.4 BMW M3 COUPE LL2 2/10
    32 3:05.4 LEXUS IS F LL2 2/11
    33 3:05.6 BMW M3 COUPE LL2 11/08
    34 3:05.6 PORSCHE 911 CARRERA S LL3 2/10
    35 3:05.8 PORSCHE CAYMAN S LL3 2/10
    36 3:05.8 PORSCHE 911 TURBO LL4 8/07
    37 3:05.9 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT500 LL2 8/07
    38 3:06.4 JAGUAR XKR LL3 2/10
    39 3:06.5 MERCEDES-BENZ C63 AMG LL2 11/08
    40 3:06.5 MERCEDES-BENZ E63 AMG LL3 2/11

    More importantly it shows that the F team gets it, and that could bode well for the upcoming GS and IS redesigns, since I'm sure they had input.

    The old IS-F took 3:14, so they shaved nearly 10 seconds from the lap time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And looks like Toyota may let Subaru lead that (as well as the FT-86):

    "Subaru is leading development of the 086A"

    Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2011/1101_toyota_extending_subaru_p- roduct_sharing_to_highlander_tribeca/index.html#ixzz1A0422Atl

    I was relieved to read that Subaru's version would continue with a boxer engine, no clones please!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    A revised model beats existing models...ooh!

    Let's see how it competes with upcoming revisions...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    The LS holds its own...in one market, anyway. I can't imagine it is even close on any other continent.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Toyota in 2011...No soup for you..

    I know it doesn't rhyme but it's my fav) :)
    And represents my impression of Toyota lately by all the shirkin' they've been indulging in this past decade. Having just read almost 500 posts of faulty Matrix manuals of victims who owned 03 and 04's. And...unbelievably, there is still no responsibility taken by the corporation; whose unmitigated effrontery is gettin' old..

    I think that "no soup for you" really speaks volumes..

    Never have been much of a rhymer, but:

    Toyota in 2011? Be underdog to Pleven

    No thriven for Toyota in 2011
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It shaved a whopping ten seconds off the lap time.

    I'm not surprised you only skimmed that given it was good news for Lexus. LOL

    Watch the 2nd video to see the part about how poorly the E-AMG brakes performed. C&D noted the IS-F was the only heavy sedan whose brakes did not fade.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    It's an update, it better be superior.

    IS-F and E63 don't compete with each other in the real world, the former competes with the C63 (which is now a few years old)....E63 is at least a few hundred pounds heavier.

    Patiently awaiting widespread use of the twin turbo AMG units, and who knows what else could be in the pipeline.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's an update, it better be superior.

    My point was that most updates are cosmetic. This one was heavy on the functional aspect.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    edited January 2011
    Maybe after 20 years Lexus is finally getting the message that they need to compete in more than marshmallow categories :shades:

    It will do nothing but improve the entire breed, so Lexus can bring it on.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The F series is relatively new, maybe 2 years or so? So that was a quick revision, and an effective one.

    I sat in an IS-F, but didn't get to drive it, at a Taste of Lexus event. The seats are fantastic.

    From a functional stand point, Lexus needs a bit more back seat legroom in the new IS. From a tuning stand point, just make sure this new F series team has input in the mainstream (non-F) cars.

    The IS350 has a ton of potential - it's a great powertrain worthy of a chassis with more sporting pretentions.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I cannot imagine an electric rate so high?

    I'll report my average rate when my bill comes today from Dayton Power and Light.


    I'm in CA as well, our rates have been that high. They are tiered like income tax rates. Our initial rate is only around 11 cents per kwh, but each tier of usage goes higher. Right now our next kwh is 28 cents, but in the summer when we are air conditioning it is in the low 30's, like gagrice. I guess maybe we are energy hogs, or maybe the tiers are set too low to encourage conservation. We do have a pool and that does not help, running the pump every day (and yes, water is still a liquid at our winter temperatures!).
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    >Crunch time - is there a consensus on the new topic change yet?

    "Will Toyota be in Heaven in 20 11?"

    It rhymes.


    Let's think ahead for 2012:

    "Will Toyota need some elves in the the 2012's?" :P :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Programming an electric car to charge during non-peak hours may help come closer to that utopian 5 cents/kwh rate GM dreamed about.

    But the rate doesn't even matter.

    A Leaf (or Volt for that matter) leases for $110 per month more than a Prius, and there's no way you'll recoup that $110 on fuel savings.

    Forget the Prius, even. You can lease a Chevy Cruze for, what, $169 a month? Remember, the Volt is a shortened Cruze platform.

    So the Volt's big brother costs less than *half* as much. Fuel won't even put a dent in that, especially if you go with a 40mpg EPA highway Cruze Eco.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >I'm in CA as well, our rates have been that high.

    Ours for this bill is 10.7 cents. Our kwh use is 2600 roughly in an all electric home. I don't know how the steps for our billing are tariffed.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    We could come up with a name that is not date specific:

    "No more fear for Toyota this year?"

    And then in 10 years we can still have the same topic name!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Programming an electric car to charge during non-peak hours may help come closer to that utopian 5 cents/kwh rate GM dreamed about.

    Our wonderful high rates are 24 hours. There are no "non-peak" hours. :cry:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ouch.

    I'm not even sure what my rates are. Wifey pays that bill.

    Funny thing is the CNG Honda Civic GX probably makes more sense from a financial stand point.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    I think it debuted for the 08 MY , so 2011 is the 4th model year - not brand new. They are a very rare sight, much less common than a C63 or M3...maybe a few more will sell. But it will take time.

    I'm still willing to wager upcoming models will be tuned for softness and isolation above and beyond all else, unless they were an F badge.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Lexus has the ES, so the next IS has no excuses. I can forgive a soft-ish IS250 as an entry level car, but they should at least offer an IS350 Sport package that feels sporty.

    Even a regular G35 or 328i is fun.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2011
    Ours for this bill is 10.7 cents. Our kwh use is 2600 roughly in an all electric home. I don't know how the steps for our billing are tariffed.

    My largest bill last year was $199.77. That was for 948 KWH. At that point I was just shy of going to the next highest rate. Our base is 325 KWH which is around 11 cents per. It goes up rapidly after that. So if you add an EV on top you can see it would be at a much higher rate. With no off hour rates. And SDG&E does not let you store up solar energy. It only saves as much as you put out at a given time. Your bill in CA would be close to $600 per month.

    PS
    That is why I tell people driving a Sequoia is the least of my bills. Electricity and water are higher than gas for the vehicles.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    "Toyota's Daly said the Japanese automaker is bullish on the long-term prognosis for the U.S. auto industry."It's not a matter of if (15 million), but a matter of when."

    He pointed to demographics, pent-up demand, scarcity of used cars and affordability of new cars as factors for U.S. auto growth."

    Toyota Forecasts 12.5 Million Sales in 2011; Focuses on Hybrids (AutoObserver)

    On the driving costs, The True Cost of Powering an Electric Car says it'll boil down to your kilowatt rate.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    According to estimates by TrueCar.com, BMW is spending $3,162 per vehicle in December, down from $5,600 last year. Lexus is outspending BMW with an outlay of $3,580, compared to $1,275 last December. Mercedes' spending is down $105 to $4,195.

    Automakers have used more lease and financing deals this year because of the unusually low cost of money.

    But makers of luxury cars traditionally sweeten the pot of dealer cash this time of year to hide the year-end sales push from customers, analyst Toprak said.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Such a biased and not really accurate b'cos that is only for Dec. The whole year incentive spending is a more accurate estimate. So what's next -- weekly spending info ?? Daily spending info ?? :sick:
    For the year 2010 the facts are as follows :

    Year Brand Sales Incentives

    2010 AUDI 91,083 $2,852

    2010 BMW 196,833 $3,590

    2010 CADILLAC 130,207 $4,572

    2010 LEXUS 201,769 $1,986

    2010 LINCOLN 77,768 $5,054

    2010 MERCEDES-BENZ** 196,288 $3,552
    **Without Sprinter and McLaren

    And this interesting fact about Lexus -it lowered the incentive spending than last year::

    ""Some other interesting highlights from luxury sales so far this year:

    • The top six U.S. luxury makes all increased sales this year while every make, but Lexus, lowered their incentive spend compared to last year.
    • Cadillac had strong momentum in 2010, increasing sales by 38 percent compared to last year, while decreasing incentive spend by nearly 15 percent. On a side note, Cadillac was the only make from the top six to have a decrease in transaction price.
    • Lincoln, the other major U.S. luxury make, increased sales by seven percent, but what’s encouraging about Lincoln is they only decreased incentive spending by 1.4 percent, yet increased transaction price by almost 12 percent, almost seven percent higher than any of the top six luxury makes. This means Lincoln got its buyers to spend on higher trim levels or add-ons than last year, only helping to increase its profit margins on vehicles.
    • Audi is on track to have its highest sales ever in the U.S., which happened in 2007, selling 93,506 vehicles. They need only 1,703 sales to reach its 2007 sales number. But can Audi break 100,000 units sold in the U.S. is the real question? We are TrueCar.com think Audi should surpass the 100,000 mark for the first time ever.
    • If the recalls continue to hamper Lexus, 2011 could be the year they lose their rein as the leader in luxury sales in the U.S. to either BMW or Mercedes-Benz with the introduction of new models.
    • Overall, we saw the luxury segment increase sales by 23.4 percent, yet decrease incentive spending by 12.2 percent and increase transaction price by 2.5 percent. ""

    So BMW and MB had 3500 whereas Lexus had 1900 ,, Cadillac and Lincoln had 4500 and 5000 .. So the actual facts need to be posted. Not twisted or convoluted facts. So Lexus is the clear winner and this in the year of SUA and image issues.. Go figure !! The public is not stupid to buy into these SUA events !! :P
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    And this is the actual link from truecar.com itself ::

    http://blog.truecar.com/2010/12/08/lexus-should-win-luxury-battle-in-2010-top-lu- xury-make-for-11th-straight-year/

    Time for some honest and accurate reporting !! :lemon: :shades:
  • ben66ben66 Member Posts: 243
    Oh, the Nickel mines ! I remember sometime ago some article on the internet said the prius may be very fuel efficient and have low emissions, but the prius uses up a lot of energy to make, and in particular, those batteries uses nickel, and those nickel mines pollute the environment. The point is well made enough.

    I also remember the story of the dust to dust article when another article said overall, the Hummer uses less energy than the prius. This article arouses much controversy, especially from hybrid lovers. I always smile when I remember this story.

    But FYI, the batteries of the LEAF are Lithium-Ion batteries, unlike the prius's nickel batteries.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-30/nissan-prices-u-s-leaf-battery-car-t- o-challenge-prius-hybrid.html
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    haha, but the challenge is over at mile 75..
  • ben66ben66 Member Posts: 243
    Never underestimate VW folks. Though they are not big yet in the US at this moment, overall globally they are still a very big player, and the big boy in China. And they have made no secret of their ambition to want to take toyota's spot one day, though Hyundai have the same ambitions too.

    I have seen newer VWs, not the old VWs like the old vintage bettle, like the VW Touran. I have carefully studied the design of the seats, the many cute and innovative features, and the powerful yet economical diesel engine. And all I can say is the folks at VW are NOT dumb.

    It will be interesting to see how VW tries to gain strength in the US market again.
  • ben66ben66 Member Posts: 243
    You forgot my word " Often ". Of course every nation and race have its share of corruption, but its the scale that differentiates them.

    And prostitutes affairs may not affect car quality. But compare this kind of thing with how toyota tries to interfere, fool around with those NHTSA investigations and one must realise that its like comparing corruption in the US vs in Afghanistan.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    well do you know the most popular SUV in Afghanistan ?? guess what - Toyota 4Runner. Boy, your posts are so ridiculous that they are a great read for a hearty laugh ! thanks. :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Time for some honest and accurate reporting !

    I should have expected it to be inaccurate and biased. It was from the Lexus lovers website. You don't have to spit at the messengers.

    According to estimates by TrueCar.com, BMW is spending $3,162 per vehicle in December, down from $5,600 last year. Lexus is outspending BMW with an outlay of $3,580, compared to $1,275 last December. Mercedes' spending is down $105 to $4,195.

    http://www.clublexus.com/forums/car-chat/543726-december-2010-and-year-end-auto-- sales.html
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    You reported first trying to put down Lexus. And then when I report from the same website - you are just a messenger. So up to you to decide which is which. :confuse:

    Again the statement you make is only for December. 1 month incentives is not Christmas. Jeez !! Again as I said-- what's next ?? Weekly or daily?? Like those daily political tracker polls..Look at the whole year 2010- Lexus had incentive of 1.9k whereas BMW/MB had close to 4k . That's a whopping difference considering the majority of BMW sales are 3 series and for Lexus it is the RX and ES. :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And all I can say is the folks at VW are NOT dumb.

    Phaeton.

    They need to also revamp their dealer network and improve their reliability if they want much bigger sales. I haven't seen any evidence that they get it, yet.
  • ben66ben66 Member Posts: 243
    You are right. One of the most corrupt nations on earth loves to buy from one of the most corrupt car companies on earth.

    A match made in HELL !!! Indeed !!!
  • ben66ben66 Member Posts: 243
    Takes time. VW is still busy becoming ever bigger and bigger in China and kicking toyota's bum there again and again. I guess its fun to kick the butt of a smaller competitor in the world's biggest and most exciting car market today.

    Just like Hyundai, Hyundai is still very small in some countries like those in South East Asia, but its because Hyundai is still concentrating on kicking bums in big markets like China, the US and Europe. South East Asia can wait.

    So its the same with VW. Few can fight a multi front war at the sametime. Resources, time and manpower are limited. You know companies don't want to overstretch the way Hitler overstretched and fought a 2 front war that brought him down.

    And if I am VW's CEO, I realise that China is today not just the biggest car market in the world, but also the fastest growing. And the ranks of the rich who can buy my higher margin / more profitable luxury cars are also growing. Better concentrate my firepower there as top priority for now.

    The invasion of the US can wait, but it will happen no doubt about it. After all, the US is still the SECOND largest car market in the world, though mature already and growth is stagnant. And since toyota gets the bulk of their sales from the US (not Japan mind you), if VW ever wants to overtake toyota one day, they can do no better than to grap toyota's biggest source of income here in the USA.

    Those Japanese brass back in tokyo are so ungrateful ! The US and Americans have contributed so much to their coffers yet it took decades before they appoint the first American director on their board, and shortly a while later the guy (Jim Press) jumped ship.


    I wonder what those other Japanese directors have done to Jim to make him leave such a high post.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    More unintended acceleration--the toyota nightmare


    "In November, a federal judge declined to dismiss pending lawsuits against the company based on owners saying their car value has plummeted.

    "And one of the lawsuits, filed in November, comes with video. In South Elgin, Ill., last May, 87-year-old Leon Przybylowski’s 2006 Toyota Corolla (not covered by a recall) suddenly took off in an Off Track Betting parking lot, crashing into a parked car and then crashing into a brick wall. Przybylowski died of his injuries, but not before saying that the car took off by itself. A surveillance camera caught this video, as Fox reports:"

    Link with video of the runaway

    "According to the victim's son, at the hospital, his dad told relatives, "It took off like a jackrabbit and there wasn't anything we could do to stop it."

    "The family's attorney says that beyond the driver's own words, there are also two eyewitnesses who say the car's engine was revving loudly as it headed towards the off-tracking betting parlor, and toward the customers in the doorway."

    Interesting that this Corolla wasn't in any of the large recalls toyota did under the pretense of those being the problems in the cars.

    Electronics?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    What a great video... Backs up, backs up, bang... hits a car. Then proceeds to put it into drive and not even turning the wheel just plows straight into another car, doing what appears to be about 10, maybe 15 mph...

    87 years old...

    Heart attack? Drunk behind the wheel? Clutsy?

    I'm sorry, but if it's my fault or the cars fault, this thing would have been over after I backed into the first car... :sick:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks for the summary.

    Looks like Lexus had some seasonal deals, but when you look at the whole year, you see the full story.

    Lincoln has 7 models coming soon, so their incentive numbers should drop significantly. I think they need more differentiation from their Ford clones.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2011
    I also remember the story of the dust to dust article when another article said overall, the Hummer uses less energy than the prius

    They made some incredibly stupid assumptions about how long the cars would last. IIRC they said the Hummer would last 300k miles and the Prius just 100k miles. Then they calculated the total energy per mile.

    Yeah, right. I don't there are enough barrels of oil left in the world to fuel a Hummer for 300k miles.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    well do you know the most popular SUV in Afghanistan ?? guess what - Toyota 4Runner

    You're right, but don't they call it the Hilux SW4?
Sign In or Register to comment.