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Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    In some forums related to GM/ Ford, I hear people (including me) screaming that quality is hurting volume. Here we are talking whether volume is hurting quality... I need a few days to gather my thoughts and to start reasoning things backwards :blush: What does this mean for consumers like me anyway... Avoid big manufacturers :confuse: Or, avoid those who recall :confuse:
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    So despite what the naysayers are saying about TOYOTA's supposed slip in quality, the reality is that it is still better than the rest in terms of quality.

    That is not what this is saying; "recalls have yet to affect significantly Toyota's standings in quality surveys" indicates that there is a lag in time between the occurrence of a quality problem and the recognition of same and then the perception that Toyota vehicles are associated with quality flaws. In other words, it takes time for the truth to get out. Mercedes-Benz is a further example of this. Even though their cars are and have been filled with flaws for years they got by on reputation established in years prior before the buying public realized that buying a Benz was tantamount to gambling insofar as quality was concerned. It will be no different for Toyota as the public becomes increasingly aware that the Toyota of 2006 is not the Toyota of 1996.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "What does this mean for consumers like me anyway... Avoid big manufacturers Or, avoid those who recall"

    Can't do that unfortunately. They all recall.

    Honda just recalled 1.2 million vehicles because they put an 800 area code on their (888) customer care line in their manual under customer arbitration. :-P

    Apparently, the (800) number they put is a sex line, to make matters worse. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    That is not what this is saying; "recalls have yet to affect significantly Toyota's standings in quality surveys" indicates that there is a lag in time between the occurrence of a quality problem and the recognition of same and then the perception that Toyota vehicles are associated with quality flaws

    The surveys are sent by people actually own the car unlike you who passes his own personal opinions as facts.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    The surveys are sent by people actually own the car unlike you who passes his own personal opinions as facts.

    I would say that when multiple credible publications such as the WSJ and BBC Online are rife with reports for anyone to read about Toyota quality implosion this is much more than an opinion.

    Please do try to stop twisting people's comments to fit your own bias.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Wall Street Journal and BBC are not in the business of doing ownership surveys unlike JDP and CR. You should know that by now. The fact remains that TOYOTA as a brand is still much better than the domestics, and yes that THAT IS A FACT NOT AN OPINION.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It will be no different for Toyota as the public becomes increasingly aware that the Toyota of 2006 is not the Toyota of 1996.

    Actually you are right ... sort of...but the environment has changed and the vehicles certainly have changed. As a result the entire perception of what is acceptable has changed and the companies are changing with the times.

    Consider...
    The Gen3 and Gen4 Camrys were not much different from any vehicle made since the 50's. All were mainly mechanical vehicles with a minimum of safety features ( seatbelts and front A/B ). The workings of the vehicles were mainly mechanical linkages which had been used and perfected for the better part of 50 years. Where Toyota and Honda shone in comparison to the other makers in the late 90's was that the assembly and the very basic mechanical linkages were simplified and made repetitive and nearly perfect.

    Since 1998 all of this has changed. In 1998 Toyota eliminated the distributor and went to its TDI system. Since then it has added ECT-i, ETC-i, VVTi, Trac, VSC, VDIM, RSCA, Dynamic Laser Cruise, Navi, hybrid technology, PSD ( eliminating the traditional tranny ), BT and electic steering.

    Under the skin today's vehicles are literally and figuratively in a different millenium. I would consider the Gen2 Camry/Avalon/Accord to be the peak of the mechanical auto. Now what is on the road, whether from Toyota, MB, Acura, et. al. is an electronic office or studio in the skin of an auto.

    Then there was the Ford/Firestone situation. The legal departments of all major companies whether auto or not learned what not to do during that fiasco. If there is a safety risk of any kind get on it right away and don't let it blossom to a full fledged disaster. This is just good business - by everyone. The way that Johnson and Johnson handled the Tylenol problem is the model. Get out in front admit the mistakes and fix them. All will be forgiven in time. Tylenol is stronger than ever as is J&J.

    With the exponientially more complex vehicles than even 8 years ago and the fact that these hugely different vehicles are just coming to market as the cutting edge of the technology of the 21st Century IMO makes it likely that for a while there will be 'learning curve' by both the manufacturers and the users of these new electronic devices we call autos.

    No auto maker will be able to stay back in the last century with a basically mechanical device, all will have to accept that the current buyer want's these high-tech vehicles. Now who do you want supplying them?
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    JDP and CR

    Maybe you better re-read the post about there being a lag between the development of problems and the public's realization of same.

    The fact remains that TOYOTA as a brand is still much better than the domestics, and yes that THAT IS A FACT NOT AN OPINION.

    Sorry, bub, your unsubstantiated zeal for foreign cars notwithstanding, that is very much your opinion.

    It is very clear to any unbiased observer that the American car brands are on the ascending part of the curve with the worst being behind them, as exemplifed by the new Lincoln MKZ and several of the excellent current offerings from GM such as the Impala SS and the Buick Lucerne (check the Avalon board for reports of former Avalon owners who got burned on Toyota's junk and who sought refuge in the new Lucerne with great satisfaction), while Toyota and several other foreign car makers (VW, M-B for example) are on the descending part of the curve, and your unfounded enthusiasm will not change the situation.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    American cars are on the ascending part of the curve ? A little too early for the April Fool's joke don't you think ? Last time I read the news, domestic sales were down in the toilet and Honda and Toyota were up in double digits. I am sure TOYOTA won't mind being on the descending part of the curve in your alternate universe.
  • exploder750exploder750 Member Posts: 159
    JPD and CR report historical data. Toyota's problems are recent, stemming from relentless cost cutting in the name of added profit. Their over confidence and arrogance is now catching up to them. Running their development programs short handed, resulting in cutting corners with testing in the name of rushing product to market, and now a workforce that is burning out, are just now starting to show up in issues with their vehicles, and will for quite some time. In short, their system is rotting thru to the core. This won't convince you that historically the data shows high marks for Toyota, but it's enough for me to not lay out premium dollars for what is now historical perception of quality.
  • exploder750exploder750 Member Posts: 159
    tgferg67?
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Toyota's problems are recent, stemming from relentless cost cutting in the name of added profit. Their over confidence and arrogance is now catching up to them.

    Precisely correct.

    But the question is, why would anyone in his or her right mind want to subsidize this greed by paying through the nose for quality that no longer exists?

    In this day and age of the internet there is really no excuse for such ignorance which will prove exceedingly costly for whose who do not thoroughly do their due diligence.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    to say that Toyota is more dependable than some domestic brands, not domestic bramds as a whole.

    Recent J. D. Power dependability reports say Buick, Cadillac and Mercury are more reliable over time than Toyota.

    Here is a link to the latest J.D. Power news release: scroll down for complete brand list in order of reliability.

    http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060809/law079.html?.v=66
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    But the question is, why would anyone in his or her right mind want to subsidize this greed by paying through the nose for quality that no longer exists?

    The reason is that while you may think that there is a significant fall off in QDR to the vast majority of current Toyota owners there is none. Those like myself who have been burned by the detroiters in the past will never forgive the lost time and lost dollars caused by 80's and 90's junk.

    There is still a cost of $10000+ spent in the past on four different detroiter vehicles that cannot be recouped. Compare that to a total of $400 on 7 Toyotas since 1989.

    As noted elsewhere, recalls? Who cares!! Mine took less than 30 min to fix and cost me nothing at any time since it was done during a regularly scheduled oil change.

    There is a much closer differential now and the detroiters, if they don't misjudge the market again, may gain ground on
    with better vehicles but they still will have lost an entire generation - or two - with poor quality in the last 25 yrs. Toyota/Honda and recently Hyundai have built up a huge bankroll of Goodwill.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It is very clear to any unbiased observer that the American car brands are on the ascending part of the curve with the worst being behind them,

    Huh?

    Ford cant close capacity fast enough to keep up with buyers dropping off their customer list. I work 10 min from the Norfolk F150 plant. The Fusion/Milan ranks last in the IIHS crash test results for midsized vehicles. Dumb, since the 500 ranks first in its category.

    DC was third, now is fifth and really has no auto presence at all. If it wasn't for Jeep, the Caravans and trucks ...

    GM has good offerings in a lot of products and with it's new settlement with Delphi will very likely survive and kick butt in the next union negotiations.

    Except GM are these the 'winners' on the upswing. barely afloat is more accurate.
  • exploder750exploder750 Member Posts: 159
    "The Fusion/Milan ranks last in the IIHS crash test results for midsized vehicles. "
    Relative to what? It hasn't been tested with side air bags yet, which become standard in 2007 for Fusion.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    how the results would look if we made a chart of all the recalls of the Big 6 manufacturers in the last ten years. Would Toyota compare poorly in that light? Remember, Toyota is not the only one having large recalls, it is just the latest to join the crowd of large recalls. And from what I have seen, Ford at least is keeping pace with Toyota this year, and then some. And none of Toyota's recalls cause vehicle fires. Which could be considered a plus. :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    The Wall Street Journal article on 8/25 has a quote from a "Senior Toyota Engineer" that said:

    "We used to do quiet recalls called 'service campaigns' to deal with many defects, but we're not going to hide anything anymore"

    I've seen a lot of people on Edmunds complain about Toyota's silent recalls, meaning if you compain enough they might do something.
  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    What is the status of Toyota's recall on the Tundra for the ball joints that fail and cause loss of sterring control?

    That defect is eerily familiar to the severe accident in Japan that Toyota is being investigated for hiding defects. In that accident, a faulty steering part in a Toyota resulted in loss of control and caused a head on collision.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Those like myself who have been burned by the detroiters in the past will never forgive the lost time and lost dollars caused by 80's and 90's junk.

    If you are indeed prejudiced by the events of 15-25 years ago, as you indicate you are, then no, you will not be able to objectively evaluate the current crop of American car offerings to see that they are in no wise comparable to the problem-ridden offerings of two to three decades ago.

    In reality, a car buyer now is buying a current car, not one from decades past. It makes no sense to let ancient experiences color present objective evaluation.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Toyota is being investigated for hiding defects

    This brings up an interesting and important point. It is one thing to have multiple vehicles with serious defects but is quite another to try to hide them. This speaks of a culture of corporate dishonesty and is yet another reason not to reward a greedy, arrogant entity that cares so little for its buyers that it insults and tries to deceive them by trying to hide the defects. Guess what? The defects are now so numerous and so serious that hiding them is no longer an option so ol' Toyota decides to come clean . . . but only after being exposed.

    Personally, I find the domestic car makers much more honest than their Asian and German counterparts who try to deal with their foibles by denying their existence and getting on their high horses when buyers complain. I have never been too thrilled when the prevalent attitude at a dealership, specifically a Toyota dealership or a Lexus dealership, has been such that they consider they are doing you a favor by even talking to you, projecting the image that it is a privilege to be considered as a buyer for their overpriced wares.

    Give me the American car dealerships any day with their refreshingly relaxed, forthright and appreciative attitudes who project the genuine aura that they are happy I came in their store to consider a purchase.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In reality, a car buyer now is buying a current car, not one from decades past. It makes no sense to let ancient experiences color present objective evaluation

    Unfortunately for the detroiters this statement is absolutely wrong. It's past experience that's the basis for current purchases. Not only that but those, my children, who were not drivers but also suffered through the 'Dark Ages' are similarly lost to the detroiters. The current retro trend brings back names that often had horror stories attached to them. In my case - the Charger. Dumb marketing.

    As I noted GM has some interesting and quality products spread throughout its lineup. However, with a total of $400 +/- in total 'unexpected' costs with my 7 Toyota's over the last 17 years and 500,000+ miles there is no reason to switch. I like the products and the advancements and simply the peace of mind to expect each of the three current Toyota vehicles to go into the 200,000+ mile range with little or no cost. In addition the cost of normal maintenance has gone from $500-800 annually in the early 90's to about $200 annually more or less indefinitely now.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "Give me the American car dealerships any day with their refreshingly relaxed, forthright and appreciative attitudes who project the genuine aura that they are happy I came in their store to consider a purchase."

    LOL. That is such a generalized, bias driven statement, I almost choked from laughter.

    So what dealership do you work for Mr. salesman? "genuine aura"... hmmm maybe SATURN? ;)
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I had a good laugh from that one too.

    More often than not, the same big dealership chains own both import and domestic stores, and their business philosophy doesn't vary from one building to the other. This trend is accelerating, and the small family-owned single outlet dealership is rapidly disappearing, except in the more rural areas of the country.

    Oh, you might get more deluxe and individualized service for the luxury makes, but certainly there is no difference for comparable import and domestic models.

    And about "secret" or "hidden" recalls, weren't they invented by the Detroit 3? Besides, "service campaigns" are fully accepted as legitimate by NHTSA, as long as no serious safety defect is involved.

    BTW, there is a difference between a hidden recall and a service campaign. In a hidden recall, only people who bring their cars into the dealership and complain about a particular problem may get it resolved for free. In a service campaign, all owners are notified by mail just as is the case for a safety recall. It's just that service campaigns don't have the same legal standing as safety recalls, because they don't involve serious safety defects or noncompliance with a federal safety standard.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    This is the kind of thing that bugs me in threads like this. People take a fragment of news, find out nothing about it, and then proceed to distort and broadcast it.

    The thing with the Tundra involved improperly manufactured ball joints by its supplier, and the ball joints are being replaced under recall. No injuries occurred as a result of this problem.

    Toyota is not being investigated for "hiding defects". Two former Toyota executives are being investigated by the Japanese commerce ministry for ignoring evidence that a particular design may have been flawed. It is relevant to note that this supposed "flaw" caused no problems AT ALL anywhere in the world until an 11-year-old Hilux Surf crashed last year. One 11-year-old truck prompted this safety investigation, which led to the "revelation" that a questionable decision was made in going with the steering design it had, which is still under investigation. The Japanese government has already made the statement that there was no criminal wrongdoing here.

    There were half a million Hilux Surfs (4Runner in the U.S.) and pick-ups going out of Toyota factories every year for eight years with the steering design in question. And ONE developed a problem in 11 years. That problem led to a crash. It may turn out that the maintenance of this vehicle, already 11 years old when the crash occurred, was neglected, which led to the accident.

    But despite the actual FACTS of the case, this and a couple of headlines about increasing Toyota recalls cause every anti-Toyota hysteric in the woodwork to come running out making statements that have no accuracy at all.

    :-(

    Toyota DOES have a problem with less effective QC in the last couple of years, as a result of enormous manufacturing expansion outside Japan, and it needs to slow down and get an iron grip on this problem. And that's the extent of it. I think we will find that three years from now, the reliability studies still place Toyota near the top.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Hope this isn't a move to attract young male buyers :mad:
  • jazonjazon Member Posts: 9
    Actually I know a lot about the issue, I drive one of the non recalled vehicles that is under investigation by the Government right now.

    Toyota hasn't recalled all of the suspected models.

    Some people can try to blindly support a company for whatever reason, but I think it is the CONSUMER who should be protected.

    One can try to minimize the defect, but loss of steering is a big issue for me! The accident in Japan highlights a defect that was known by Toyota since 1996. Toyota chose not to recall the vehicles until after 5 people (including kids) were seriously hurt by the accident caused when the defective, non-recalled Toyota went outof control and hit another vehicle head on.

    Considering this wasn't the only problem reported and Toyota recalled the vehicles 2 months after the accident shows the seriousness of the defect.

    The Wall St Journal quote from the Senior Toyota Engineer about Toyota not going to "hide" defects anymore pretty much sums up what a lot of consumers suspected about Toyota.

    To blame consumers for being concerned shows the insensitivity of some who will support a company no matter what comes out. Their credibility is zero in my book.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Well said, nippononly! I will be watching 3 years from now for the reliability studies, and I would bet that Toyota will still be at or very near the top. Honda has had (and is having) issues with reliability too, but they are still very strong. My point is even the best can have problems, BUT they have the resources and the foresight to correct problems before they become really detrimental.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Give me the American car dealerships any day with their refreshingly relaxed, forthright and appreciative attitudes who project the genuine aura that they are happy I came in their store to consider a purchase.

    Well you have been living in a cocoon for the last 20 yrs because if you peruse the detroiter boards here you'll find
    - '45,000 miles? Fix your own tranny' ( twice in my case )
    - I know this is the 7th time you've had it in here but we have no idea what's going on here ( Chrysler LHS first year out ) [ insert your own nameplate ]
    - the guy who had a friend's GM truck crap out on him in his driveway and he impounded the vehicle because the GM dealer wouldn't pick it up.
  • phinneas519phinneas519 Member Posts: 113
    ...I have considered American-made products as becoming increasingly better instead of stagnating or becoming worse. I also am beginning to see that all Japanese brands are not infalliable.

    Father: Say thirty Hail Toyotas and pray for forgiveness for your sins.
  • phinneas519phinneas519 Member Posts: 113
    kdhspyder: Repairing the tranny at low miles? 45,000? You know that sounds strikingly similar to a certain Lexus SUV. Hm...Looks like imperfection doesn't just strike Detroit makes.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    With one very very important exception...

    As in my two cases the cost was $2500 each and at 45000 miles any Toyota or Lexus is still under warranty...Cost $0.
  • splatsterhoundsplatsterhound Member Posts: 149
    All Toyota employees (and that means you, kdhspyder) please sit on the sidelines.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Sorry, despite your personal preference, all members are welcome to participate as long as they're civil. You are not, however, required to read their posts if you don't like 'em.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Indeed...imagine if all GM employees and shareholders were silenced...this place would be a lot less entertaining.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Sorry, I missed where this forum was created to give a freehand to any and all to blast Toyota without any opposing views. ;)

    As an owner of three Toyota's ( 7 in the last 16 yrs ) with nearly zero problems an alternate view to the alleged dropoff in QDR gives a good balance.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    is not the point of the discussion. Brand differences in quality and reliability seem to be getting much smaller.

    I like the way Toyota has made a commitment to get to the root of their problems even if it means delaying model launches.

    Once car companies solve reliability issues we can just go out and buy the car we want without any worries about quality!
  • kc7kc7 Member Posts: 96
    For clues to what's going on at Toyota, I got some interesting stories, pls have a look :

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_08/b3921062.htm

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060825/bs_nm/autos_japan_toyota_dc_2

    After reading these articles, I am NOT surprised by what is happening with more and more Toyota cars. I feel that Toyota's new boss, Katsuaki Watanabe, is the classic case of genius / mad man. The line between a genius and a madman can be quite slim. And in this case, I think Watanabe has gone overboard.

    My observation is Toyota, especially under Watanabe has over the pass years squeeze their suppliers over and over again till I once read some suppliers joked that they have to call Watanabe " Uncle " to get Toyota's business.

    The thing is there is a LIMIT to how much suppliers can be squeezed before they have to resort to " countermeasures " to meet Toyota's price demands and get their big business. No supplier in their right mind will maintain their quality and risk losing business with Toyota. They WILL fool around a bit or more with their quality to get Toyota's massive volumes at all cost.

    It's like the classic building contractor story. Many people, including myself are at times guilty of playing off several contractors. Then we chose the lowest price contractor. Later we found out how he managed to quote such a low price : inferior material, cutting corners here and there etc.

    That Camry windshield rubber seal recall in China, though not serious as an engine failure, perfectly indicates suppliers are squeezed so badly that they even have to " alter " the rubber formula. I mean rubber seals are such simple stuff in cars, and that is the LAST thing I expect to be recalled. I mean this is not some new engine model having problems, which is understandable. Even the domestics, while often maligned for inferior quality, I don't think they got many problems with rubber seals !

    Anyone in business as a supplier and faced continuous squeezes by their big customers may understand why Toyota is facing more and more problems in their components. Suppliers just have NO CHOICE.

    You just cannot give the same quality AND reduced cost forever. I wish I could tell Watanabe " Friend, don't forget the Law of diminishing returns ".

    Moreover, I can expect how shocked the Japanese suppliers will be when Toyota starts using China made parts prices as benchmark. How can the Japanese suppliers match China when Chinese workers are paid a tiny fraction of Japanese workers, never mind the Chinese suppliers may not be as experienced as the Japanese. And that the Chinese parts may not even come close to made in Japan parts in quality standards.

    Toyota may think that they are smart enough to help suppliers lower cost and still maintain quality, but to what level ? Sooner or later the line is crossed and I think Toyota may not even know precisely where the limit is.

    That could be why Toyota made in Japan cars have more recalls recently, and that these cars are no longer guarantee of superb quality. More and more overseas parts are being used.

    There is even an article on the net which said years ago, Watanabe was so hell bent on cost cutting, he even reduced staff canteen menu so that majority sold are the most liked (less food variety as a result), small things like that don't escape his attention. Which reminded me of the story of one company (forgot the name), in a cost cutting drive, even limits how much tissue staff uses when they go to the toilet ! My God !

    One might call that genius, efficient or what, but for me, that kind of thing is too far, too much. It risk lowering staff morale in the long run. I mean how many of you will be happy working for a company that is SOOO obsessed with lowering costs (even though they already have billions in cash) that even small things like that are " adjusted " ?

    That could be why Toyota's cash piled up so big, so fast. Even though I know they sell many cars. Those cost cutting money sure adds up.

    Just that this time Toyota may have gone too far, and I fear that many more Toyota cars sold in the recent past few years may report more problems in the future.

    Frankly speaking, I feel today Toyota quality and quality of other automakers is not really THAT much different today. Those JD Power surveys may give the wrong impression. The quality gap between the no.1 and no. 5 say may actually be close, but those rankings may mislead people to think no.1 and 5 is far away.

    Anyway, when I know Toyota's boss works in this fashion, frankly speaking I think I will buy a car whose maker does not squeeze suppliers like that. I think if Toyota does not change their ways, this recent problem could become a big snowball for them in the future.

    I think Toyota got too greedy, too ambitious, and wanting the no.1 position too badly.

    One of my favourite mottos is " YOU PAY PEANUTS, YOU GET MONKEYS ".
  • kc7kc7 Member Posts: 96
    This may be a bit old fashioned, but I remember Mr. W E Deming is known as the American who taught the Japanese about quality. Wayback in the 1950s, after WW2, Deming was invited to Japan to give many lectures and taught the Japanese about quality. Before WW2, anything made in Japan was a joke, remember ? Other than Toyota, many other Japanese companies also attented Deming's lectures, including Nissan, Honda, etc.

    I even read that in Toyota's lobby, there are 3 portraits. One is of Mr. Toyoda, the founder, the 2nd is of the current boss, the last one, the biggest, is portrait of Deming ! That is Toyota's way of thanking him ! Whether Deming's big portrait is still there today or not I would like to know.

    But from what I know about Deming's teachings, I think Toyota may have deviated from Deming's teachings. Whether Deming's way no longer works today or not I can't say. But here are some aspects of Deming's teachings that I remember :

    1. People have to be happy to have quality. What he means is people (insider or business associates) with links to the company must be happy to produce quality. That sounds obvious, but I think many companies forgot. I think many of Toyota's suppliers today are NOT happy being squeezed like that year after year. Also Toyota staff may also be forced to live with a very austere working environment under Watanabe's obssession with deep cost cutting.

    2. Deming stressed that the MOST important variables / factors in business are often UNKNOWN and UNKNOWABLE. He always said managing by numbers alone will result in disaster later. What he means is other factors like quality, people morale, etc also counts, and these things cannot be measured by numbers alone.

    Deming always stressed the key to quality is to always improve the process, not just get cheaper prices only.

    I believe the Toyota several years ago got to where they are today by doing what Deming said. BUT looking at their case today, I fear Toyota's new management may have strayed from this path. Otherwise how could so many problems arise ?

    Some say Toyota sells more cars today, naturally more problems occur. I disagree, because look, Toyota in the past few years grew at a rate of about 10-15 % or so per year, BUT their recalls around the world rose MUCH more than that !

    Which tells me something wrong is happening, and that they had better wake up. If I remember correctly, the recalls almost doubled in the last 2 years. Now Toyota did not double in size in the last 2 years.

    Also Toyota's obsession with sharing many parts means we might see many Toyota cars with the same looking parts. I hope one day the Camry and the Corolla won't look too similar and won't share the same dashboard ! Otherwise Toyota cars could become very boring !
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    both have center-guages. Cost-savings in production action.

    Now, the cost of the xA and the Yaris are very reasonable and gentlemen, these cars hold their value come resale time. All of the things mentioned almost to a 't' have been sinned similarly by GM, Ford and Chrysler-Dodge-Mopar. Haven't they?

    Those that are freaking out by the higher volume of Toyota recalls or defects, answer me this. Would you balk at buying something out of the Toyota product lineup tomorrow?

    I am a Kia fan but I acknowledge the success and the quality of the Toyota product. In fact, I would call up a Tucson Scion dealer tomorrow and order a Polar White 2006 5-speed Scion xA if my wife didn't love our 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 so much. The little South Korean built SUV is running like a champ at 118,850 miles, so we're hanging onto it.

    Would I trade it in tomorrow, though, if I...ummmm....demanded to have my way and my way or the highway...and...and if I don't get my way people are going to...to...yes, yes I would trade it in on a Toyota/Scion xA.

    The quality is there and the resale is excellent and the reputation is there. I also feel that Hyundai and Kia (especially Hyundai) are making nice strides towards catching Toyota and Honda. They're getting there and have, in fact, passed Toyota already in quality circles and publications. So, keeping a 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 and holding on to it instead of trading in tomorrow is not a problem. It's a nice problem to have. Glad I don't buy in to the "gotta buy American" malarkey that some people in the U.S. are still buying in to.

    The domestics are improving, though, too. They really are I just don't like them as much as some of the imports. As this discourse goes on are you starting to sense a trend developing? Yep-you are. Automobiles and those that make them are so competitive and the automotive product is improving so much all the time that the consumer is the one who gains from it all.

    Take it back-how much did Hyundai and Kia make last year? A lot! So did Toyota. I agree, Toyota should probably bump up the prices it pays suppliers for parts. Not a good time to go overly cheap on suppliers. Just look at GM for a great example of why not to go cheap on suppliers. Yikes. :sick:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    So what dealership do you work for Mr. salesman? "genuine aura"... hmmm maybe SATURN?

    I am not a car salesman. For GM or any other brand.

    Your bias is evident and your name says it all. Enjoy your Toyota crap.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Oh, you might get more deluxe and individualized service for the luxury makes, but certainly there is no difference for comparable import and domestic models.

    You could not be more wrong. The imports like BMW and M-B, not to mention Toyota, act as though they are doing you a favor selling you a car. The domestics including both GM and Ford are the exact opposite. They appreciate your business. Deny it as you wish but the facts speak for themselves.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Toyota DOES have a problem with less effective QC in the last couple of years, as a result of enormous manufacturing expansion outside Japan

    At least you admit it. However, the problem's not merely due to excessively rapid expansion but rather to excessive greed manifest by excessive cost-cutting. That is the root cause of Toyota's imploding quality. Deny it all you want but it does not change the facts.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You could not be more wrong. The imports like BMW and M-B, not to mention Toyota, act as though they are doing you a favor selling you a car. The domestics including both GM and Ford are the exact opposite. They appreciate your business. Deny it as you wish but the facts speak for themselves

    You couldn't be more wrong. Your statement is only an opinion of one ( you ). But thank you for your opinion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Deny it all you want but it does not change the facts

    Again this is the opinion of one so it carries the weight of little or nothing. It's perfectly valid for you but it's not fact. As you stated you are not in the auto business so as an outsider you have little understanding of how the system works currently.

    Thank you for your opinion though.

    kdhspyder
    7 Toyota's in 17 years
    500,000+ miles in total
    1 recall
    less than $400 in 'unexpected costs'

    You were saying what now about 'mis-perceived QDR'
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Considering I have never owned a Toyota, I am not able to oblige. ;)

    That last comment was tongue in cheek BTW. But did you not think that your comment about these so called wonderful domestic dealers was the least bit biased as well? Some my best experiences have been with Acura and Mercedes. But the best dealership I have ever worked with was a Lincoln/merc dealer so I'll play the fence on who's better. You'll find slimey dealerships from all makes and models.

    Putting a spin on it and saying that ALL domestic dealers welcome customers with open arms while ALL foreign dealerships are snakes is just a load of BS dripping with your own bias. Got a laugh out of it, that's all...
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I agree that other companies, especially the Koreans and domestics, have made huge strides in quality.

    There is a point of diminishing returns from improved quality for any company or industry. Toyota and some other of the other car companies at the top of the rankings may be near that point now.

    Toyota has been able to charge premium based on quality for the last 10+ years. That may be hard to sustain in the long run.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    smithereens is the introduction of Scion. This new Toyota product, introduced in California in MY 2004, is reasonably priced. Something that speaks to me, because they also hold their value.

    I like the xA and the tC, too, to boot. My point is that Toyota is offering a new car product for used prices and one can get one that is built well and will hold up. Scion is helping Toyota's reputation and gaining Toy converts each and every day. I don't see the lack of quality and I don't see deception. Dishonesty exists everywhere, unfortunately, but I think Toyota is offering a solid gold automobile with their Scion product.

    Volume is hurting the Toyota product, not the Scion product. Bank on that, gentlemen.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • phinneas519phinneas519 Member Posts: 113
    I believe with Watanabe's extreme cost-cutting, Toyota, while not bound for bankruptcy by any means, is somewhat of a sinking ship. Their product, at its current price and what you get for that price, doesn't appeal to me. There are many other makes to consider for a more reasonable price with a comparable rate of quality. Though it is believed that Mitsubishi is headed downward, they are slowly changing their flawed mentalities and improving. I feel just happier in a Mitsubishi, which I currently own, than I did in my Toyota, which I owned previously. In today's auto market, there are so many variables, assumed roles in the market are not at all concrete; Nissan is having troubles lately - the person on top who directs the company can drive profits into the ground or save money but lose the spirit of the enterprise. Nothing is a given and a company on high can come down a few notches and the ones that are lower on the totem pole, with good decisions and flexibility can come out ahead.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Your statement is only an opinion of one

    Wrong. My statement is based upon the fact of how I and a considerable number of others of my acquaintance have been treated when walking into dealership showrooms to puruse the cars.
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