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Toyota on the mend?



  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Putting a spin on it and saying that ALL domestic dealers welcome customers with open arms while ALL foreign dealerships are snakes is just a load of BS dripping with your own bias. Got a laugh out of it, that's all...

    I don't believe I said that "ALL" with respect to my comments. Obviously, the phenomenon will vary to some extent over numerous dealerships but in general the trend is obvious.

    In general, the imports including Toyota and the more upscale brands put on airs as to the supposed superiority of their products. I believe the escalating recalls of Toyota products put this fantasy to rest.
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    The one fly in the Scion ointment is their Initial Quality score (J.D. Power. Scion ranks way down the list.

    I am not sure why this is. Someone here suggested it may be because of all the dealer installed options Scion offers.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Manson, WAPosts: 7,234
    product does blind me to those low intitial quality scores, then. Yes it does. If I know that going in I won't blame Scion if something fails then, will I? Minor glitches fixed under warranty, if they're few, are OK. Not really good, just tolerable.

    I can be pretty forgiving if I have an intelligent dealer service center and a good relationship with them. If I like the subcompact I'll spot them a mess-up or two or even three. Really, I sure will. Four flub-ups? Now you're startin' to push things a tad!

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    Got any proof of this so called "Obvious Trend" cause I don't see it :confuse: from personal experience.

    "In general, the imports including Toyota and the more upscale brands put on airs as to the supposed superiority of their products. I believe the escalating recalls of Toyota products put this fantasy to rest."

    A spat of recalls ain't going to put anything to rest. If anything, it is giving false sense of security to those pro-domestic fans like yourself who are revelling in a situation that in typical Toyota fashion will be corrected, I assure you.

    Dream on if you think Toyota is going to continue to allow a 3 decade old reputation slip away. Dream on my friend. :shades:
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    Remember the wheel of fortune ? That poor family you know could 5 years later become a millionaire. And that rich family who is living high could plummet 2 years later.

    I am not surprised with owners of older Toyotas who are happy, because I also believe that the old Toyota is consistent with their quality philosophy. Just that you know, like humans, corporations could become overzealous, ambitious, greedy and somehow forgot what got them there in the first place.

    Even though I also believe Toyota is not going to suffer from a deep catastrophic fall, they have too much cash, and many experienced people, but I think the current CEO's obsession with cost cutting could give Toyota's competitors more time to catch up. I also fear that many Toyota cars sold in the past recent few years, installed with components from those squezzed suppliers, could in the near future, report more problems, not just in USA, but worldwide.

    I read from a good book " Quality of earnings " for stock analysts that if you want to detect a company in trouble, even though they report earnings growth, you must also look at the sales growth vs receivables and inventory growth. For example, if the company reports 15% sales growth, 25% profit growth, but the receivables is growing at 60%, inventory growth is also pilling up at 50%, especially if this discrepancy has been going on for the past 3 years, watch out !

    Toyota obviously does not have a cash flow financial problem, but using this analogy, I am pretty sure Watanabe could be reaping the results of his past obsessions. I got some figures :

    In 2003, 200k Toyota cars recalled in USA. In 2004, increase 5 fold, to over 1 million. In 2005, 2.2 million. Now, what is the annualized growth of Toyota cars sold in USA for the past 3-4 years ? 10%, 15%, 50% or more each year ?

    I am not saying Toyota is doomed, BUT if I am a stock analyst / investor and I notice the HUGE discrepancy in annualized sales growth vs recall growth for the past 3-4 years, I will sell / avoid Toyota stock TILL things have settled down and the picture is clear that the company has corrected things.

    I remember an interesting story from a stock book. Its said that in the old days, there is a smart investor who is suspicious abt the continued growth of sales and profits reported by his stock. What did he do ? He sneaked near the factory and observed the factory smoke stacks. And AHA ! He noticed that daylong there is very little smoke from the stacks. He sold his stock. And true enough later the company finally downgraded their earnings report.

    This story may be a joke, but I get the point.

    And before this pattern has been reversed, I personally will avoid buying Toyota cars for the near future. Because I don't want to get one equipped with components from unhappy suppliers whose margins are squeezed real bad. God knows which suppliers can manage to retain the quality, which ones will slip.

    For example, one just don't expect a manufacturer of premium quality emulsion paint to bring down their price ever closer to those cheap / middle rate paints REGARDLESS of how smart / cost efficient the paint factory is. I always believe that you get what you pay for. There is a limit to how efficient one can be.

    I am not saying Toyota cars have all become bad, BUT if you study history of the rise, fall, and slip of corporations, you will realize sometimes one big smart (or so he thought) CEO could ruin an otherwise good corporate machine, temporarily or for good.

    Toyota, wake up, and pls be fair to your suppliers, otherwise I am taking my money to other brands whose quality, I am convinced, is not far from you. And may even be better today knowing how you treat yr suppliers. I take those JD Power surveys with a grain of salt, perhaps those owners have not faced troubles - YET.
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    Here is a very illuminating article :

    Maybe History DOES repeat itself. Could Toyota forgot what got them here today and unwittingly repeat what GM had done in the past.

    Pls read the whole article, but here is the section from the above article from the auto world :

    ".....There's an important lesson here. In the recessionary 1980s, General Motors created a procurement czar who used his company's massive buying power to beat up suppliers on price. The world's largest automobile company earned enmity, horrible relationships and a reputation for building cars that underperformed.

    By contrast, a desperate Chrysler couldn't bully its suppliers, so it partnered with them. The feisty company pioneered the concept of "gain-sharing" with its suppliers; that is, Chrysler would let suppliers keep a significant portion of the margins when suppliers came up with innovative ways of cutting costs and adding value. Strong supplier relationships were at the core of Chrysler's corporate comeback..... "

    I can't help but speculate that could the old Toyota be like the Chrysler of old, and the NEW Toyota be like the GM above ?

    If one wants to reassure me that Toyota is getting lower prices and still upholding the same quality, I am NOT buying it, not at this moment when the recall / sales growth ratio discrepancy is highly disturbing...
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    I follow Automotive News, a Detroit-based authority on the auto industry since 1925. Edmunds is even going to run a weekly summary from the paper as a service, because subscriptions are expensive ($145 per year; we get it at work).

    I've read numerous articles about suppliers in the US and their attitudes toward the major car manufacturers. And in terms of satisfaction with the automakers, the suppliers consistently rate them in the following order, from best to worst:

  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722

    As I tried to point out in my earlier post, large dealership chains that own both import and domestic stores are rapidly becoming a fact of life in the more densely populated areas of the US. These stores do NOT operate differently depending on whether a domestic or import nameplate is on the building.

    In the Washington DC area (the largest metro area closest to me), the following dealerships own multiple stores and are responsible for the bulk of sales in the area: Pohanka, DARCARS, Ourisman, Koons, Rosenthal, Sheehy, and Fitzgerald (Fitz Mall).

    In my little burg in central VA, the dominant chains are Brown, Colonial, Price, and Battlefield. I can assure you that you will be treated as badly at Brown Dodge as you will at Brown Toyota!
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    The worry is those supplier satisfaction ratings MAY have changed today. In the past, I NEVER hear stories of Toyota squeezing suppliers till it made news stories. I only heard them working with suppliers to improve processes and become more efficient (note - more efficient, not cheap per se). Deming style.

    I used to be fat when I was young, thin during high school, now I am back to overweight again. Tried the Atkins diet, worked, but oh, I often cannot resist the urge to eat carbohydrates !

    Things often change in the world, I sure hope you are right, BUT again those huge recalls appear to point to a different direction....

    Some may say, well, those recalls, many are not serious, life threatening, yup, I agree, BUT so far as I can remember, in the past, I seldom, if not, never read about Toyota recalls far OUTPACING the sales growth rates. Way back in the 1990s. Or early 2000s. And that's before we ever hear about the name Watanabe.

    I never hear the old former CEO Fujio Cho being a cost cutting maniac. Fujio Cho is even said to be a polite, soft spoken boss. The Chairman, Hiroshi Okuda, is more brash. But the new one, Watanabe, I am not quite sure. Fujio Cho is now the Chairman if I am not mistaken, but you know, often the Chairman is a much older man, more often playing a ceremonial role. Power now lie in the hands of Watanabe.

    Maybe Fujio Cho himself is impressed with Watanabe's former huge cost savings so that he dared not interfere. BUT looking at the huge growth in Toyota recalls, I think even Fujio Cho himself may start to worry and who knows tell Watanabe " Watanabe san, maybe you should be more careful abt those cost cutting exercises vs our suppliers. "

    I also read elsewhere that Watanabe has never gotten an overseas posting during his whole career at Toyota. That is Watanabe is a full time executive at Toyota Japan for his whole career. That's a bit surprising for me, because I would expect the new CEO to be a man who had experience and lived in many regions around the world to run such a big company as Toyota.

    But Hiroshi Okuda and Fujio Cho may have been SO impressed with Watanabe's big cost savings to chose him over other executives. The next few years will tell whether they had chosen a genius, or madman. You know, Fujio Cho, experienced and smart though he is, is still human after all. He may have chosen the wrong successor.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    However despite the fact that you '..and a considerable nuber of others of your acquaintance' have been treated shoddily at 'import' dealers but welcomed with open arms at detroiter showrooms, the import brands continually seem to be increasing sales, building new plants here and adding new vehicles all while being 'greedy' by charging higher prices than the detroiters. Yet with all this loving care from the detroiters dealers the buyers are still deserting the detroiter showrooms. How is this possible?

    Just maybe... the limited scope of you and your acquaintances flies in the face of the experiences of the rest of the market. How does it seems logical that the largest part of the US market seems to be moving enmasse from the detroiters while paying higher prices and getting worse treatment?

    Do you think that maybe you did something, that millions and millions of others did not do, that caused your horrid experience. Is it possible that you went in with a preconceived notion that you were entering the camp of the enemy.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I am not saying Toyota is doomed, BUT if I am a stock analyst / investor and I notice the HUGE discrepancy in annualized sales growth vs recall growth for the past 3-4 years, I will sell / avoid Toyota stock TILL things have settled down and the picture is clear that the company has corrected things.

    There is likely to be a larger number of recalls from a larger sales volume. There is no doubt about that. All vehicles are just elctro/mechanical devices assembled from a multitude of suppliers - any of which can have a bad design or error in manufacturing including Toyota ( snap ring issue ).

    To me though the public's perception of recalls though seem to be akin to be its perception of divorce. In the 50's divorce was a familial scandal for the most part. By the 70's it was commonplace. By this century it affects more than 50% of all marriages.

    Most recalls are extremely minor adjustments to ensure that a future accident doesn't occur; a replaced tie rod, reinforced steering component, etc, etc. Since the Ford/Firestone fiasco and the actions by Congress all manufacturers must by law generate a recall if they think that there may be the possibility of a potential safety problem. Noone wants to face the legal consequences of what Ford and Firestone went though nor face the wrath of Congress. So just issue the recall make the adjustment.

    It may come shortly in the near future when all vehicles are linked to the internet that the recall notice will light up a signal on the dash in the same way the 'check engine' light comes on. When a recall is issued for a range of VIN's those affected will just have a signal sent to those vehicles and the indicator light will come on. Every vehicle built will be expected to have some recall done in the course of its life.

    Recall number make great press stories but this is a different environment both technologically and politically. All vehicles are better than they were 20 yrs ago but they are immensely more complicated and politically noone wants a Ford/Firestorm situation to occur again.

    Recalls by all manufacturers are bound to increase.

    Here is an alternate view: If a major manufacturer isn't recalling a certain percentage of its vehicles it's not doing enough to ensure the safety of the drivers.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,042
    Let's try to keep this conversation focused on Toyota quality/recalls. If you'd like to discuss the difference in dealership sales techniques, please jump on over to the Smart Shopper board. Thanks!


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  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    have to learn the value of a good PR initiative. This is the first time they have experienced sustained negative media coverage.

    IMO the media thinks the "Toyota has quality problems" story has legs. They aren't going drop it overnight.

    Once a storyline is set in the media it affects news coverage of a company for years. Ask WalMart, Microsoft, IBM, GM, etc.

    To Toyota's credit, they are taking their quality problems seriously. Quality has been their lodestone for years: they can't let it slip.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Manson, WAPosts: 7,234
    like WalMart. Yeah, they don't pay their people enough. They don't give out good enough benefits. They don't include good medical insurance in their list of benefits.

    Do you think that you are going to stop going to WalMart? I don't think we are all gonna stop going to WalMart. We want the good prices. It's true not all the WalMart prices are the best. But some WalMart prices are unbeatable. Some of the electronic prices are unbeatable anywhere, for instance.

    Here's an example. My son got into the habit of taking our boombox outside to boom his rap music in the warm summer nights and watch the great southern Arizona starshow at night(I can't believe how well you can see the stars and the Milky Way at night here in the high desert. We are at around 4,300 feet up and that helps in the clarity aspect of the view). Well, he also got into the habit of leaving it outside at night. Condensation set in and BOOM! No more patent electronics working well in my boombox.

    Anyhoo, I bought that boombox at a WalMart in central Missouri a few years ago. It was a really nice boombox for the $30 I paid for it.

    Guess where I'm going back to today to buy a new boombox? You guessed it-WalMart. How much will I pay? That's the $64,000 question for me.

    What does this have to do with Toyota? Humm...let me think. Does anyone really think that Toyota is going to let their perceived reputation slip into the potter because the dorky American press has picked up another story and started hitting the bricks with it? Don't think so, dudes and dudettes.

    I'm particularly smitten with the Scion aspect of Toyota and the main offender in recalls that I can recall is their Scion tC and it's potentially exploding deflector-glass panel located just in front of the moonroof. Apparently some tC owners were experiencing that piece of glass exploding on them at freeway speeds. Could hurt, eh? There was a recall about that problem. Toyota has instituted a permanent fix for that problem for current owners of 2005 and 2006 Scion tC's and for those buying the 2007 tC and 2007 tC Spec Scion has put a fix into place in their production line that takes care of this problem.

    If anyone knows of any information regarding Scion recalls please post away. If the hosts would rather have those posts go in a Scion-related thread here on Edmunds that would be fine as those Scion threads are read by this padre living close to the US-Mexico border pert-near every day. OK every day!

    I'll have to head over to Tombstone, AZ, to witness the re-enactment of the shootout at the OK Corral. Apparently that gunfight is re-enacted every day of the year there. :shades:

    No, do include talk of Toyota-Scion recalls because I am keenly interested. I still don't see a need to chew my fingernails down to Michael Jordan levels whenever he had to play against Gary Payton on defense. I really don't. I'd like my next new car to be a 2006 Scion xA in Polar White, Classic Silver or Salsa Red. 5-speed form with the only accessory required being an armrest. I would then take the little darling over to Pep Boys and get some Proline rims installed (about $300 including taxation) by the Pep Boys in a peppy, forthright manner. Over.


    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • jetjockgjetjockg Posts: 80
    Very informative reply kc7! What about that JD Powers and Consumer Reports? Iam sure you are watching closely.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I have stopped going to Wal-Mart (never was much of a shopper there, but now actively avoid them and encourage friends to do so) for the reasons as well as others.

    But the WalMart case is a bad analogy because there are no accusations that Toyota has mistreated or badly treated people, but merely that quality has dropped.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    I am watching closely. And yes, I know Toyota still got good grades in those surveys.

    Don't get me wrong. I also agree that Toyota's fundamental ability to make good cars is still intact. Just that perhaps the new overzealous CEO may have roughen things up a bit. More likely than not, this matter should be just a temporary disturbance. Toyota should be experienced enough to correct them and goes back to normal. But I prefer a guy like Fujio Cho running the show though.

    I have always liked what they call unassuming, soft-spoken (but still driven) CEOs. People like that are great motivators, build good relationships with every stakeholder, and still manage to get growth by motivating everybody. Hardball tactics never appeal to me. I just can't help but feel Fujio Cho is the former, Watanabe is the latter type.

    However, in my opinion, today's cars, especially famous brands like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, the Koreans, even the domestics, I feel that their quality gap is pretty close. Thus today, when it comes to buying cars, I personally do not have any brand loyalty to any particular brand. Like I said, I feel that the no.1 and the no.5 ranking on the JD Power surveys do not reflect big gaps in quality.

    I simply decide based on styling, engine, mpg, color, price / what I get, etc. Brand alone will not open my wallet. Which car comes closest to my needs will win my heart.

    Unlike in the old days when anything Japanese is laughed at, or the recent past when many domestics are in turn laughed at (the wheel of fortune turning again), today most big automakers pretty know how to make decent cars. That's why even the Koreans are getting good marks.
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    Further to what I said previously, though I feel Toyota's problems is temporary, nevertheless, if I am a car buyer at this moment, I will STILL avoid Toyota for the time being.

    Things could get better before it gets even better, OR things will get WORSE before getting better. I have no idea, and I am not taking any chances.

    Anyway it's also because Toyota is not the only car maker around. There are still so many interesting non-Toyota cars around to pick from. Why take the risk ?

    Toyota, you can still open my wallet, but before the fog dies down and the picture becomes clearer, I see no point in sticking to a brand. Especially when the brand is having issues not normally associated with that brand.

    I remember what Warren Buffett said : The thing for getting good investment results is to AVOID risks. Ha ! Normally the saying is " High risk, high return. " I'll stick to Warren Buffett's advice anyday.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    That may be your perculiar experience but it is not that of the majority of new car shoppers.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    The trends of which you speak are less a reflection of any quality or superiority on the part of the imports than the result of the success of Madison Avenue hype including the never-ending praise of the imports and scorn heaped upon the domestics by the car rags such as Car and Driver, which actually had the temerity to give first place in a recent comparison test to a BMW 3 series which was so defective they had to borrow performance numbers from a previous test because the car could not complete the particular mandated maneuver as a consequence of its defects!
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    "Based on the details of several Toyotas we’ve recently evaluated, including this Camry, it’s obvious that times have changed. Buyers blindly opting for Toyotas based on reputation owe it to themselves to thoroughly inspect their chosen model before signing on the dotted line.

    Christian Wardlaw’s Opinion of the 2007 Toyota Camry’s Quality:

    For years, our editors have been noticing a general degradation of build and materials quality in Japanese cars, but we’ve always written such observations off as oddities given the exceptional attention to detail these brands have historically exhibited. With our test sample, a 2007 Toyota Camry XLE V6 with less than 3,000 miles on the odometer, it’s time for us to stop making excuses. This test sample, more than any in recent memory, served to underscore that the domestics have made great strides in build quality, while vaunted brands like Toyota are beginning to struggle.

    The assembly and materials quality of our test car was worse than some recent General Motors products we’ve evaluated, certainly not up to the standards one expects with a $31,000 price tag and definitely not up to snuff compared to a Hyundai Azera that was in our parking lot the same week as the Camry. There is no excuse for the numerous problems with panel fits found inside and outside of our test car. Our Camry constantly creaked and squeaked and rattled inside. The plastic used for the back of the steering wheel spokes and the sides of the center console emitted that same hollow, cheap rasp when fingernails scraped across it as that for which we’ve excoriated Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors countless times in the past. The leather was stiff and cheap feeling, the paint displayed an orange peel finish at a glance, the dash pad fit poorly around the driver’s side air vent, and with just a twist of my wrist the passenger A-pillar trim popped off in my hand. I’ve got a litany of little problems that I uncovered with the Camry, from the flushness of fit of the front speaker grilles to the inconsistent finish of the headliner at the plastic C-pillar trim panels, but space is short.

    We’ve come to expect this kind of indifferent assembly from the former Big Three automakers – in particular General Motors. But after taking a close look at the way our 2007 Toyota Camry was assembled and the materials used in its construction, and comparing these observations to the sticker price and what we uncovered in as thorough a probe of that $27,000 Hyundai Azera we test drove the same week, I have no other choice but to conclude that Toyota has lost its Camry mojo." - - 81
  • I bought a new Sienna last October-had front end vibration at high speeds-Firestone rebalanced tires, replaced them, dealer tried new wheels & tires from another van, no help. After 2 months of measuring & replacing items, it didn't go away so they are buying it back for what I paid. Do I get another Sienna or look at alternative-Oddysey, Grand Caravan, Entourage? This is the first vehicle, new or used that qualified under the lemon law in my 48 years of driving! :confuse:
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    Wouldn't you be able to get a Grand Caravan and have some money left over?

    It may not be quite as luxe, but they seem pretty durable and practical.

    And having the cash left over after your bad experience would be quite a plus.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You are assuming by this that the American public for the most part is ignorant following blindly like sheep whatever Madison Ave tells it to do. No test drives, no independent verification by other sources, Edmunds, C&D, MT, etc. I sense that you see people lined up at Toyota dealers with checks in their hands like people in a breadline just waiting to eat.

    The American buying public is a lot smarter than you give it credit for being. People just don't throw $20-$30K around like confetti. Your antagonism towards all imports seems to skew your view of reality, slightly :P .

    The review was one negative viewpoint out of maybe 10-20 very positive reviews. The others nearly universally loved it. It's always good to have balance.

    BTW. None of the reviewers are located on Madison Ave.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    FWIW, I've owned Hondas and Toyotas, but back in 1994 I bought a Dodge Grand Caravan ES. It was not inexpensive at the time, sticker was $26,400. It currently has 160K miles and all is still well. No 4-speed ECT (electronically-controlled automatic transmission) rebuild or replacement, and no problems whatsoever with the 3.3L V6, except for a do-it-yourself starter replacement a couple of years ago (cost $75). I've replaced the tranmission fluid every 20K miles, and changed oil every 3K/3months. A few niggling problems, such as the rear vent wing motors failed almost simultaneously, some rear A/C problems, and lost the flourescent display on the radio, but overall it's been an excellent vehicle. My next door neighbor has a 2006 Sienna, and he seems happy with it.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    Obviously no expert on the segment, but from my outsider's point of view, it seems Chrysler focuses on making its mini vans simple, affordable and durable, while Toyota and Honda lean a little bit more toward the gee whiz stuff.

    Both approaches appear to be working. Between the three of them, they have, I believe, more than 80% of the market.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Toyota is still doing well by suppliers in the US. The accounts I read in Automotive News continue to say Toyota is, in your words, "working with suppliers to improve processes and become more efficient (note - more efficient, not cheap per se). Deming style."

    I don't think Watanabe-san has much direct say in how Toyota in the US deals with its suppliers.

    You have heard the horror stories regarding current GM global purchasing czar Bo Andersson? Talk about twisting suppliers' arms!

    And are you aware that Carlos Ghosn of Nissan has the nickname "Le Cost Cutter"?
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    I'm really having a hard time getting my head around this idea that Toyota is going to Hades in a hand basket when my 2005 and 2004 Camrys continue to perform so well, just like the 1997 model I had before. (The 2005 was purchased just over a year ago, in May, and has had NO issues -- zip -- in 15K plus miles.) The 2004, at 39K miles, has a very slight bind in the steering when I make a hard left turn at low speed -- the only problem to date, and I'm not going to bother with it now, since I bet the service people won't detect it.

    Recalls? 2 in total -- one on the '97 for a possible loose steering wheel, and one on the '04 for possible improperly installed (twisted) side curtain airbags. The latter was found NOT to be a problem in my car once the trim panels were removed. I would guess in the '97 that the bolt holding the wheel was simply torqued to spec -- mine wasn't obviously loose or in danger of falling off!
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Remember this is a Detroit weekly, "the bible of the auto industry," and it had a front-page story about the runaway sales success of the redesigned 2007 Camry. There's currently only a 10-day supply, and many dealers are selling the car at full sticker. There are no rebates. The car is reported to be on pace to sell more than 450K units this calendar year, something no car model (as opposed to truck or SUV model) has done since 1978 when the Chevy Impala achieved this milestone.

    With all the bad press, shouldn't people be running away instead? ;)
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Well, well, well!

    Read the whole article everyone, starting here at the beginning!

    Our Mr. Priggly has happened to extract the most damning paragraph of a generally positive review. The review is written by 3 reporters, who in turn comment on 3 issues: driving impression, comfort, and quality.

    It just so happens that writer Wardlaw has the most negative opinion on quality, and this is only what Mr. P. has chosen to post.

    I'm afraid your bias is showing! ;)
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