Toyota on the mend?

kdhspyder · September 2006

Broad ranging rant from flatworlder's view about hybrid technology to third world sales to some viewpoint that Toyota is saintly.

I am not a hybrid hater. Just that currently I refused to be enthralled by Toyota's hybrids (or Honda's or whoever's). Because I am aware that hybrids are extremely complicated machines. Even if Toyota made them, I refuse to think that Toyota can guarantee excellent reliability for XYZ years. Especially after the warranty period runs out.

Yours is one common opinion though it's not borne out by any facts as yet since most hybrids are still within warranty. You do have your right to be skeptical but facts do not support anything yet except that the vehicles perform as expected.

As to performing after XYZ years this is too vague to be of any value unless by three digits you mean 100+ years then you are correct, they will not perform after 100+ years. I think what you are really saying is that you have no idea ( XYZ years ) about how long these will go on and you are unwilling to take any risk. This specific part of your pov belongs on another thread but it's commonplace and similar to the commonly held pov in 1491 that the world was flat; i.e. something bad has to happen at the end of the world ( end of the warranty period ) because we've never been there. But...what if the world really was round?

Talking about Toyota hybrids / their models outside the US may sound out of topic, but my purpose is to highlight the fact that Toyota is NOT the saint that many thought they are. So judge them as a typical corporation, not some saint to embrace regardless of what happens...

You might have thought that - or for some reason you may think others view Toyota like this - but as a former supplier to all of the major 5 automakers here I can give you the perspective that it's always has been just about business and profit. It always has been and it always will be.

This is good. It's the way capitalism works.

scott1256 · September 2006

it's always has been just about business and profit. It always has been and it always will be.

That is very true. It is for profit reasons that Toyota is taking serious steps to solve recent quality problems.

They can't afford to have their well-deserved reputation for quality evaporate by pushing vehicles to market too soon.

Delaying a few vehicle launches to keep quality up to Toyota standards is a very sound business decision.

towillia · September 2006

My friend has a 2004 4Runner with 50,000 miles. She has maintained it with the dealer and followed all instructions etc. In July the truck autoignited! It was at rest for two hours, and then burst into flames. Toyota gave her a huge run around. We complained to their "experience center" and they sent a fire inspector t look at the vehicle. He said the cable between the battery and the alternator was corroded and that caused the fire, and Toyota was not going to do anything to help. So the lesson is don't buy a Toyota unless you live in the desert. Toyota's customer service is worse than the product. I used to love Toyota! :mad: :mad: :mad:

kc7 · September 2006

Call me ranting if you want, all I am doing is blowing the whistle. And I know whistle blowers usually don't end up in good shape. But I just can't stop blowing.

I admire your optimism. But this time I think you have chosen the wrong analogy. True, the world is flat thing has been disproved. Just look at a photo from NASA space shuttle is enough to convince the most stubborn 3 year old.

BUT, here is the big BUT my friend, a hybrid MAN MADE car isn't anything close to a NATURAL static Earth. As general Patton says " Anything man-made can be overcome ". The Germans used to think that their sigfried Line defence is impregnable. So is Titanic thought to be unsinkable.

Earth will probably be round for a long long time, till the end. BUT for God's sake, I am frankly surprised that even if Toyota STILL makes the highest quality cars (hmm, the recent massive recalls of CONVENTIONAL Toyota cars have further dampened my optimism of how reliable those complicated Toyota hybrids can get), you sound optimistic enough to think that hybrids can hold up under the stresses of everyday use for a very long time.

Never mind that those awesomely priced spareparts and service post warranty hybrid owners face could give them more headaches than the Chairman of the Fed.

I get your point, but using the Earth is round-not-flat analogy is way off the mark my friend. As Emperor Palpatine retorted to Luke Skywalker inside the Death Star after Luke taunted him abt his confidence in his Death Star : " Your FAITH in your friends is your weakness ! "

And Toyota is no Luke Skywalker in a science fiction story. These massive failures / recalls are REAL my friend ! It affects real lives, threatened safety of passengers and other cars as well ! Read those cases in Japan where even many of the patriotic Japanese are deeply shocked at what is happening to their pride of Japan car maker.

In my opinion, these huge recalls FURTHER reinforced my caution about hybrid reliability. What MAKES you think that Toyota's MUCH more complicated hybrids will perform more reliably than their conventional, much simpler cousins, who are running into trouble in ever greater numbers these days ?

Furthermore, one other thing about hybrids is they are helping the rich get even richer. How will you feel if one day, Toyota makes a new Prius, one that can do say 80 mpg, cost $50k, which makes the sales volume so small as to have an effect on the environment, more like a drop of blood in a million gallons of water.

And the federal government gives even bigger tax incentives to people who buy them, say $8K, BECAUSE its 80 mpg ! who naturally are in the upper income category.

Leonardo Di Caprio will surely trade in his old Prius and laugh again at being subsidized and reduce his fuel bills further. Meanwhile the school teacher next door who can't afford to buy a new hybrid, and still using his old 25 mpg car will be labelled " Irresponsible to the environment " Who REALLY needs those incentives ? Those hybrid incentives are going to the wrong people !

Well, for those who insist that Toyota cars are ever superb and those hybrids can last for 10 years without a hiccup, its OK with me if you buy them. I don't lose a penny if you do that. All I am trying to do on this forum is say " Read the signs, watch out ! Better wait till the smoke has cleared ".

lemko · September 2006

Wow, like the average person would know the portion of that long cable that cannot be seen was corroded. Toyota's only lucky that she wasn't in the truck when it ignited, not only for the certain lawsuit filed on behalf of her survivors but also for the field day the press would've had with the story. Just give her a new truck and be done with it.

scott1256 · September 2006

of the old story from the early days of Rolls Royce involving a customer who called for an invoice.

The customer had a Rolls and his axle broke. RR factory sent out a mechanic who replaced the axle.

A few weeks later the customer calls the factory asking where his bill is. Factory person says "Bill for what?' and the customer replies "For replacing the broken axle on my car." Factory person responds "Sir, no Rolls Royce has ever had a broken axle!".

kdhspyder · September 2006

You missed the point entirely of the analogy.

It was fear of the unknown in both cases.

I have three Toyota's now and two under recall. The Prius was done during a normal oil change; the Highlander needs clips added to the center console carpeting. This is a recall??? Adding clips to carpeting???

You have written a lot of words but your key point is:

In my opinion, these huge recalls FURTHER reinforced my caution about hybrid reliability. What MAKES you think that Toyota's MUCH more complicated hybrids will perform more reliably than their conventional, much simpler cousins, who are running into trouble in ever greater numbers these days

Seven Toyota's since 1989 with a total of under $400 in 'unexpected' repairs ( strut caps on one Camry ). Total mileage since 1989 is well over 500,000 miles. Based on these experiences, Toyota has won my confidence and until proven otherwise ( despite the slanted opinion of one who is afraid of possibly falling off the edge of the earth ) they will continue to have my full confidence.

I've already put my own money in play by getting a Prius last Nov. In 9 months and 27,000 miles - nothing. It's just as I expected; 48.5 mpg day in and day out and not a single unexpected expense.

You are perfectly free to continue to be afraid of falling off the edge of the earth.

BTW, yes, you really are ranting

.

maple2 · September 2006

Seven Toyota's since 1989 with a total of under $400 in 'unexpected' repairs ( strut caps on one Camry ). Total mileage since 1989 is well over 500,000 miles.

seven toyotas divided by 500k miles is only 71k each, so anyone should expect minimal repairs with that kind of mileage with any make of veichle, hardly worth bragging about.

I have three Toyota's now and two under recall. The Prius was done during a normal oil change; the Highlander needs clips added to the center console carpeting. This is a recall??? Adding clips to carpeting???

so what does that tell me? That using your own facts 2 out of 3 toyotas on the road today could quite likely be under a recall. :sick: G.M or Ford have never been able to put up numbers like that :P
Do you really think they would recall your highlander just because of a couple clips on your carpet if there were absolutely no safety concerns about it? I dont think so, possibly the carpet may pull away from the floor and get bunched up under the brake pedal? who knows but rest assured behind the smoke and mirrors there is a good reason for the recall, quite possibly another hidden recall to get you in there so they can fix another more serious problem without the press getting ahold of the more serious problem. Toyota is scrambling to get its Q.C. under control because they have built a reputation that boring cars will sell as long as you have people brainwashed into thinking they are getting superior quality and reliability, take away the perceived superiority all you are left with is an ugly car :surprise:

kdhspyder · September 2006

seven toyotas divided by 500k miles is only 71k each, so anyone should expect minimal repairs with that kind of mileage with any make of veichle, hardly worth bragging about

Good point. To be precise, I've had 5 ( 4 Camry's and the Prius ) with just under 500,000 mi and my wife now has two ( Highlander and the MR2 ) with about 20K each; roughly 120K on each of the Camry's and currently 28K on the Prius.

Nevertheless the total 'unexpected out-of-pocket' costs over all 7 vehicles is under $400. Now on 5 detroiter vehicles in the 80's and 90's I had to sink in excess of upwards of $10K into them ( one was returned as a lemon ) in under 10 years. EAch of these 5 barely lasted to 50K without some major costly problem. There is just no comparison. Based on this personal anecdotal data I remain confident that I will have to spend next to nothing on any of the current three Toyota's that I have.

Recalls:
This is an entirely different story because while it was scandalous in the past like divorce was in the 40's and 50's recalls now are just a common occurance to fix potential problems before they become major fiasco's like Ford and Firestone went through. I think this is perfectly rational and good business. All the automakers learned what not to do in the Ford/Firestone mess.

Yesterday Chrysler just recalled 200K vehicles to fix ... cupholders. Yes there might be a potential problem affecting safety but the real story is that likely every vehicle being built will have some minor adjustment made to it, it's just that the fixes will be done using the recall mechanism. Priorly these adjustments were done as 'service campaigns' but they were still being done. After all autos are only electromechanical objects.

Fixing carpeting and fixing cupholders receives the same weight of importance in recall statistics as any very serious problem so I expect the recall statistics for all manufacturers to balloon in the coming years.

2005 recall stats

GM .. 5 Million vehicles
Ford .. 6 Million vehicle
DC .. 766,000 vehicles
Toyota .. 2.2 Million vehicles

snippet:
But safety officials cautioned that recall numbers vary widely from year to year, and it is hard to draw conclusions about safety trends from them. While 2005 saw far fewer vehicles recalled than in 2004, the number was pretty close to the total in 2003, when 19.1 million vehicles were recalled.

210delray · September 2006

Good points.

And about floor mat clips. Cars have had floor mats for as long as I can remember (the 50s), and I have no doubt they go back much farther than that. But it was only after the Audi 5000 "sudden acceleration" flap of the mid 80s that something was done about "pedal misapplication," that is, mistakenly hitting the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

First came the transmission shift interlock, in which manufacturers voluntarily added a mechanism to make it impossible to shift an automatic transmission from Park to Reverse unless the brake pedal was depressed. These became common in the early 90s as I recall, but are still not mandated.

Then, those little hooks (or velcro) to hold down floor mats started appearing. IIRC, these were introduced around 10 years ago, and now are nearly universal, at least for the driver's floor mat. Again, there is no government mandate.

So now, there are recalls for items which are not required, and further, did not even exist in the not-too-distant past.

kc7 · September 2006

9 months and 27k miles is also pretty young for ANY car. Trust me, most cars at that age, mileage don't have any meaningful problems. And if you go to those hybrid forums, you will realize that not all hybrid owners have your luck. Some have the car behaving strangely, as if they have a mind of their own.

If you think I am lying or just so scared of falling off the end of the earth, why don't you read those hybrid forums ? Don't say yr internet friend KC7 did not warn you in advance. For you and your family's welfare, not Toyota's mind you.

Fear of the unknown ? Not really. For one, I can get a car whose interior is as spacious, if not more than the Prius for MUCH less money. And even if my mpg is not as great as a hybrid's, those thousands of dollars extra cash I saved can be invested, and with the time value of money, at the end of several years when most hybrid owners are just breaking even, I could already be several $ks ahead.

I am confident I will have more to spare to send my kid to medical school if he wishes (Of course if you are very rich, this point is moot).

For one, hybrids still save too little, and the impact on the environment is meaningless anyway. But enough of that.

Anyway friend, my advise to you is enjoy yr Prius, BUT be prepared to sell her at say 8 years old.

FYI, Airbus's A380 and Boeing's Dreamliner 787 are running into unexpected problems, delaying production and giving them headaches. One might be surprised that these 2 companies could have problems, considering they have been selling MANY planes for a long time.

I AM not surprised though. BECAUSE the B787 and Airbus A380 are MUCH more complex. The Airbus A380, B787 is to Boeing 737 / 747 / Airbus A300 what the hybrids are to conventional cars. Just that cars are simpler than planes. Thus hybrids don't run into problems that soon. But trust me, anything more complex is more LIKELY to give you headaches in the future. Disagree with me if you want. It's your family's welfare at stake here, not mine.

Call me fear of the future / unknown all you want, but if later yr Prius accelerates without your permission, or goes AWOL, who is going to compensate you for falling off the edge of the world ? Again friend, read those forums. Don't take my word for it. I could be a non-Toyota salesman mind you.

Remember, all it needs for you to UNDO all your investment and cancel out all yr fuel savings is just ONE big item replacement on yr hybrid after the warranty period runs out.

Like Cinderella at the Ball, you are now dancing happily with yr hybrid. But if you keep her after the warranty period is over, those pumpkins and mice could return ANYTIME.

However if you decide to enjoy yr hybrid but you take my advise and leave the party before 12, its fair enough though. Better leave at 9, not 11:30 though.

Don't kid yourself. A hybrid with TWO ENGINES plus a whole complex multitude of computer codes to co-ordinate the 2 are MUCH more likely to screw up in the future. Even Bill Gates and Microsoft, for all his intelligence, have not been able to make a bug free Windows.

If you are buying a hybrid for the high tech, you want something new, go ahead. But if its for saving the world or saving lots of cash, forget it. And you may want to give that hybrid tax credit money to your less well-off friend / relative so that they can upgrade their 18 mpg old car to a 30 mpg $13k CONVENTIONAL. You DON'T NEED that hybrid tax credit.

That is why the gap between the haves and have nots in America is getting bigger everyday. The federal government's policies favor the rich ! Including those hybrid incentives !

kdhspyder · September 2006

Since I know these vehicles inside and out...

Your post is one of the silliest I've read here to date.

But thanks for your concerns anyway. :shades:

anythngbutgm · September 2006

Hybrids may not make much financial sense but if the actual quantity of fuel used offsets the fuel used by some dude with a Suburban or Hummer, then I'd say they serve their purpose. For some people, saving a few hundred gallons of fuel over the years of ownership is more gratifying than the money put into buying it.

It's their money, let them do what they want with it I say.

carguy58 · September 2006

I was shocked myself to hear about Toyota's latest round of recalls but every automaker has its problems. I'm sure Toyota after having strong growth in the US for the past 2 and a half decades will not let this latest round of recalls dent their reputation anymore than it already has. I think Toyota has said a couple press releases in a couple press releases that it will take percaution in not letting these types of recalls happening again.

I mean Toyota in my has their repuation as their main selling main point. Their exterior styling has always been a liability in my opinion.

Bottom Line: unless Toyota has this round of recalls that they have recently year in and year out had I don;t see them going down tubes(not just yet away.) I mean Toyota has grown so much in terms of sales and expanding their segments that they participate in since the early 90's in the US that something like this was bound to happen. Once you reach the top like Toyota has a scandal or changing trends can drag you down. Look at the music industry hair metal was a joke in the 90's because grunge made it look like look old hat.

scott1256 · September 2006

I'm sure Toyota after having strong growth in the US...will not let this latest round of recalls dent their reputation anymore than it already has

That is true: Toyota is a real powerhouse, is taking these problems very seriously and will solve them, IMO.

If all the recent negative press coverage continutes it may have a slight effect on Toyota's sales growth.

Two other wild cards that may affect Toyota sales are the Hyundai and GM warranties. These will make some potential Toyota buyers take a very serious look at Hyundai and GM cars.

carguy58 · September 2006

"Two other wild cards that may affect Toyota sales are the Hyundai and GM warranties. These will make some potential Toyota buyers take a very serious look at Hyundai and GM cars."

Yeah but Hyundai has had their long warranty since the 1998 or 1999 model year. GM's warranty because its new may nab some potential Toyota buyers yes I'll agree with you there. Add in the fact that the Baby Boomers are both Toyota's and GM's main audience too so Toyota and GM are going for the same age bracket of buyer. Of course Toyota is trying to lower the average age buyer now witness the 07 Camry exterior styling. Alot of the people that used to buy GM now buy Toyota I think too.

scott1256 · September 2006

We (the members of the car-buying public) are the ones that benefit from the fierce competition going on now.

More choices, longer warranties, better dependability, higher HP and better fuel economy.....what's not to like?

nippononly · September 2006

That is the generally accepted view, yes.

OTOH, as a result of the dismal summer sales, Chrysler has just announced it plans to squeeze its suppliers in the year to come, as it tries to attain ANOTHER 40% in savings on component parts. This is called the rush to the bottom - automakers want the same reliability and level of engineering from parts that cost half the price? Not going to happen, which means more failures for the consumers, us.

Relentless cost-cutting in the last 15 years has taken its toll on the whole supplier industry, driving most of them to the brink of bankruptcy, and making car components lower-quality and less reliable in the process. This is partly what has caused some of Toyota's recent problems, but it certainly affects the whole auto industry, and ultimately, impacts us.

anythngbutgm · October 2006

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/10/03/toyota-reports-best-ever-september-sales

It appears that Toyota continues to go unscathed by the rash of recalls in the summer months... This is when a solid, well-earned reputation means a lot in the long run. People are willing to cut them a break, knowing that they will get back on the right track. :shades:

nippononly · October 2006

has something to do with it too. You have to consider that for many buyers, the reliability is no more important than the desirability of the vehicle they choose to buy. While Toyotas tend to be staid and perhaps more spartan than their competitors, there must be something that lots of people like about them. You don't buy something you dislike just because it will last a long time with few failures. Especially not something this expensive.

anythngbutgm · October 2006

I agree. I myself have never owned one so I don't know how "great" they really are, but obviously they understand the market segment they are aiming for.

I just wish the segment they shot for was a bit more "sporting".

scott1256 · October 2006

a solid, well-earned reputation means a lot

That is Toyota's strength. Their past reputation buys time to get the current problems corrected with image intact.

Toyota will eventually be damaged is if they let their quality troubles and recalls become a 'continual drip'. GM didn't take their early problems seriously. The resulting 20 years of problems acted on GM like battery acid on a wool suit.

Also, the media is now seizing on Toyota problem and reporting them agressively. I am not sure if this will continue but Toyota needs to have a good PR team on hand to contain fallout from critical media reports.

kdhspyder · October 2006

I believe that this is one of the key reasons that TMSUSA participated on the Camry Woes thread. While he/she took a lot of heat it is the only instance, that I can reall, of any major manufacturer participating in such a manner face to face with the public in an open exchange about problems. Most often it's done through an intermediary ( agent, dealer, lawyer ) who reports the manufacturer's position.

IMO, just doing this signalled the importance of maintaining an open dialogue with the clients.

explorerx4 · October 2006

the ford and lincoln threads have man-reps that are regular participants. at least they say they are,

nippononly · October 2006

for a long time too.

rockylee · December 2006

I just looked at some numbers and I could drive from the Texas Panhandle to Michigan and then back to Tx Panhandle for under $58 bucks. Now that is truly amazing :surprise:

I'll take one. I just request some creature comforts to keep me busy as I cruise.

I honestly will consider one as a work car if they don't get to expensive and if they let your write one off on taxes.

Rocky

imamac · December 2006

I have had the opportunity to directly compare a Toyota Prius and a Chevy Cobalt. Here are my observations: The Cobalt gets over 35 mpg on Interstate Trips, with some luck the Prius gets around 45 mpg or so. I can reach under the hood and change a headlamp, or air filter, or oil filter on the Cobalt. The Prius requires disassembly for the most minor service. I can put my Kayak, 2 Bicycles, and Camping gear in my Cobalt. On the Prius you would probably break something. The Prius cost about $25,000 the Cobalt was on the road for about $13,000. :lemon:

lemonhater · December 2006

I don't think the prius is the car for you. Folks who like the prius are going for the gee-whiz cool factor and the MPG thing not the ability to repair it.

kdhspyder · December 2006

Difference in perspective..

A Prius owner buys the vehicle expecting never to have to repair it.

A Cobalt owner buys the vehicle to see how difficult it is to fix when it breaks down.

In fact there is nothing to do with the Prius specially. The hybrid system needs no maintenance at all except for a coolant replacement at about 100K mi. That's it. The ICE part is like any other ICE...
oil/filters
tire rotations
plugs at 100K mi plus
brakes at 100K mi plus in many cases

That's it. How difficult can that be?

gmrules1 · January 2007

Toyotas quality is going own the toilet. Have been for the past decade. The last real good Toyota was the 1992 Camry and even then it was cheap crap next to my fathers Park Ave that he had at the time.

More and more Toyota owners are learning the scam that they are running there. Junk, low quality cars that are shmoozeed over by the press who are obviously paid off. How do you explain crap like COnsumer Reports? Biased, worthless drivel praising import junk while knocking every superior offering that GM puts on the market. Losers.

They must be a publication owned by Japan or something. :mad:

rockylee · January 2007

They must be a publication owned by Japan or something.

You do bring up a good point. I've always wondered if Consumer Reports was a Japanese "front company" to spread propoganda........

I know that sounds ridiculous but ya know me and my lil' conspiracy's

Rocky

lemko · January 2007

I must agree the 1992 Camry was a pretty good car. After that generation Toyota started to rest on its laurels. The Saturn Aura beat the Camry in a recent comparo. Could you imagine a Saturn beating a Toyota even 5 years ago? Two?

I also agree about the Park Avenue. I have a 1988 model and I'd probably would have to deliberately set out to destroy the car to kill it.

I have long since stopped believing in "Communist Retorts" as their conclusions were always contrary to my experiences.

fintail · January 2007

Gee, a Camry that was probably 15K-ish in 1992 vs a Park Avenue that was probably 30K-ish at the same time. Nice.

My E55 is much nicer than a Cadavalier from the same year!

lemko · January 2007

Park Avenue was about $26K or less around that time.

fintail · January 2007

Base? Options? Non-market employee pricing?

Still, they are not comparable cars. That's like 70% more.

rockylee · January 2007

Are you sure the camry loaded up was only $15K ?

I do remember my buddy's early 90's Camry and honestly soup cans had thicker and higher quality metal than those tin cans.

Rocky

rockylee · January 2007

I don't believe GM, made a cavalier the same year as your current E55 :P

Rocky

fintail · January 2007

Well, I remember a friend of mine's mother bought a normally equipped Accord LX back in 92 - automatic, power stuff, etc...and it was like 15.5K. I assume a Camry was similar.

The 92 Camry was a decent design.

fintail · January 2007

2002...well yeah the Cavalier was really more of a 1995/1982 hybrid, but it was still sold then.

nippononly · January 2007

the Aura also just beat the Camry (among other contenders)for North American Car of the Year. Way to go Saturn! They are definitely on their way back. :-)

As to the specific topic here: this is the truck year for Toyota. Will they be able to get enough of the new 5.7L up-sized Tundras out of the new plant to meet demand, and on time? If so, will they suffer the fate of the Titan in its first year at Nissan's new plant - horrible quality and build problems? And if they manage to do a decent job of getting the trucks out there, well-built and on time, wil anyone want them? Toyota has made its biggest gamble in the last decade on this endeavor, so I'm sure everyone over there is waiting with baited breath to see what happens.

Apart from that, I can't imagine what troubles might be ahead for Toyota in 2007. I am sure the new Highlander will be a solid evolution of the current model, still fairly popular despite its age. The Camry and Corolla are selling so fast dealers can't keep them in stock, even now. They are #1 and #2 among cars for sales in 2006. They have finally, after more than three years, reached saturation point with the Prius, and suddenly dealers have a lot of them in stock. That won't be trouble if Toyota can just divert more of them to other markets, but then again, a new tax year has started. I think that means they are once again eligible for the large tax credit, so maybe sales will pick back up.

rockylee · January 2007

a new tax year has started. I think that means they are once again eligible for the large tax credit, so maybe sales will pick back up.

Yes it's like a couple grand worth of tax incentives I thin to a certain point next year and by September it's only elgible for $750 worth of incentives I think. I read this about a week ago in motor trend but I know I might be off on my months and numbers. I do know after this year unless something else passes their won't be any tax incentives which stinks because GM, is just really starting to get their hybrids on board. :sick:

Rocky

british_rover · January 2007

1992 Camry had a base MSRP from $14,798 up to $21,178...

Camry

1992 Park avenue had a Base MSRP from $25,285 up to $28,780

Park Avenue

bumpy · January 2007

GM wanted $25,000 1992 dollars for this? Jeebus. :confuse: :sick:

anythngbutgm · January 2007

Well, it would make a good parts car for my dads 2004 Grand Prix...

british_rover · January 2007

While not a bad car the park avenue was certainly not a 25,000 dollar car in early 1990s money.

lemonhater · January 2007

So true. I guess once the rebates are taken into account it is closer to the Camry. I wonder if GMs rebates cause it to loose some sales because a buyer wants a 20,000 car see a GM model for 25,000 and thinks it costs too much. It makes it difficult to compare models when you have $3,000+ rebates.

british_rover · January 2007

Yeah not sure what invoice would have been on that car but probably 22,xxx or so and I bet by the end of the model year they had 3,000 dollars plus in rebates.

So yeah at the end of the model year I bet you could buy that car for under 20,000 plus tax.

rockylee · January 2007

TORRANCE, Calif.  On the eve of the critical launch of its 2007 Tundra pickup, Japanese auto juggernaut Toyota has stumbled with the announcement that it is recalling half a million of its trucks for potential steering problems.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119283

Rocky

P.S. No articles mentioned in the Automotive Sections of Detroit's 2 major Newspapers when I googled it

210delray · January 2007

Geez, you'd think the rah-rah "home team" cheerleading papers (for the domestics) would have reported it? Just guess it's not that big a deal, or they're in on the conspiracy?

lemko · January 2007

...about the Tundra in the first place. It looks like the same truck Toyota's had for several years. Is it just because it's a Toyota with its (ahem) "legendary reliability" that makes it so much better than its competition?

Toyota on the mend?

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