Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
I'm wondering if that's because the 07 was the last model before the redesign. I'd hope starting with the 08 model that was included, particularly for how expensive they are.
I don't have NAV in my 07 Expedition, but I do have the rear DVD and integrated Sirius. Comes in handy,the kids can listen to Disney radio with their headphones on while I listen to something else (can't listen to two different SAT stations at the same time though).
An attorney for an El Cajon car dealership said yesterday a Sheriff’s Department report on a runaway Lexus crash was “only one local perspective,” and more research is needed to determine the facts behind the fiery accident that killed four family members,
Jim Marinos, the attorney for Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon, did not address the report’s finding that a customer had notified the dealership three days before the Aug. 28 crash that the same car, a loaner, had a problem with sudden acceleration.
The cause of the Lexus crash was determined to be a wrong-sized floor mat that entrapped the accelerator, the report said.
Marinos said the Sheriff’s Department report “is only an interim perspective from the office of the Santee sheriff.”
“We believe it is only one local perspective, but must point out that there are far more complex issues of a broader scale that require further research and further analysis, including but not limited to the mechanical, technical and electronic systems of the Lexus ES350 vehicle,” he said.
John Gomez, attorney for the Saylor family, criticized Marinos’ statement, saying Bob Baker Lexus “fails to accept any responsibility whatsoever for the harm it caused.”
“Rather, it appears to point fingers at safety design issues in the very Lexus vehicles it continues to sell to the public to this day,” Gomez said.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/09/car-dealers-attorney-wants-more-r- esearch/
I think the Lexus dealer is fighting a losing battle.
I'll send you a coupon for a free donut, Gary, if it turns out the floor mat did cause it.
(As if we can ever know for sure.)
The comments after the article re really interesting. People are reaching a hypothesis that there's more to this than just the floor mats.
It's interesting how the transmission/engine control software lag in gear shifting that caused a dangerous hesitation for some people in the Camry versions most recently hasn't come up as an indicator of software problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It did cause the runaway acceleration. We have a witness that testified that the floor mat caused SUA the day before when he was driving the car. The big question I believe being posed, why did the cop have a hard time getting it out of gear or getting the brakes to overcome the engines power. The whole business of the brakes not working well after two pumps is disconcerting for me. If that is a fact of life for all cars something needs to be done. Separate vacuum pump or different design.
It's interesting how the transmission/engine control software lag in gear shifting that caused a dangerous hesitation for some people in the Camry versions most recently hasn't come up as an indicator of software problems.
I'd bet the majority of vehicles have had a software issue of one kind or another. That is nothing new. I remember having to get the trans control unit re-flashed in my Suburban to take care of a harsh shift. Same with my current Expedition. The 6speed trans had a delayed downshift (probably similar to what Toyota was/is having). I'd roll to a brief stop at a stop sign, hit the gas (maybe going 1-2 mph) and the trans would still be in second gear, causing sluggishness to accelerate then an annoying downshift to first only to immediately shift back to second gear. On the TSB regarding the 1-2 hesitation in downshifting, it talked about how the transmission control unit needed to be re-flashed with the latest software. I took it in, had it down and presto, it shifts fine.
We definitely don't have enough info or enough engineering background to possibly know what's going on. But it seems some on here are convinced of what caused this.
Who knows? But it's usually a combination of things to cause an accident of this magnitude, ranging from vehicle design to driver error.
It's a fact for any vehicle with vacuum assist power brakes that use the vacuum from the engine, which is probably over 90% of the passenger vehicles on the road. The fact is, a gasoline engine does not create vacuum when the throttle is wide open (or very little anyway), thus no their is not enough vacuum to power the brakes. I've tried it in my Expedition with the pedal close to floored and after the second pump of the brakes, braking power was noticeably gone and I didn't completely floor the gas pedal or completely jam on the brakes either.
GM did (don't know if they still do) hydroboost brakes in some of their trucks/SUVs. It used the powersteering hydraulic pump to power the brakes. It worked great until the pumps began to fail and drivers lost both power steering and power brakes. Nice! I'm not kidding, google it and you'll find lots off problems.
I'm assuming the hydraulic boosted brakes were needed for diesels as diesel engines don't produce vacuum, they use a vacuum pump if they use vacuum assisted brakes. Maybe that would be the answer for this problem. Every car could have a backup vacuum pump.
Yeah, that probably makes the most sense. I know VW has been doing that for years as my '00 Jetta had it.
That is the 800lb gorilla in the room. I don't know why someone would think the same floor mat which caused the pedal to stick a few days prior couldn't have caused it in this accident.
Why the driver couldn't get the car out of gear or turned off is another question. I certainly don't buy that it is impossible the officer panicked and didn't correctly push the start/stop button continuously for 3 seconds and/or couldn't correctly move the gear shift to neutral. I don't know if that's what happened, but it's certainly possible and IMO far more likely than the car had a mind of it's own refusing to turn off, going WOT all on it's own, deactivated the brakes, and refused to go into neutral. Just thinking of the odds of that kind of collective failure is mind boggling. I guarantee the odds that he panicked are much higher. But that still doesn't mean it's not possible the car was the problem, it is certainly possible.
there are 4 different paths it can take left to right.
in the normal 'drive' path straight up is neutral.
if for some reason it is in a different path, neutral may not be an option.
if it got into the manual shift path, the only options are upshift or downshift.
i just read in a review of another model that the computer will ignore the gear change request at full throttle.
Styling and design
Yeah, I posted that pic and I could see how it might be possible to inadvertently move the lever over a notch and not be able to engage neutral.
i just read in a review of another model that the computer will ignore the gear change request at full throttle.
Consumer reports has a video on their website about UIA and they use a Toyota Venza with the same v6 and trans as the ES350 (that doesn't mean the are programmed the same), but it would allow engaging neutral while floored. I think they tested up to 70 or 80 mph.
as far as the venza test, i don't think it means anything.
the only way to try to duplicate the situation is to run WOT at max speed.
40 to 60 mph less does not come close to simulating what happened.
it would be very dangerous. not even sure where a recreation could be safety attempted.
i certainly would not volunteer to be the guinea pig.
the only way to try to duplicate the situation is to run WOT at max speed.
40 to 60 mph less does not come close to simulating what happened.
it would be very dangerous. not even sure where a recreation could be safety attempted.
i certainly would not volunteer to be the guinea pig.
I don't know if it means anything or not. But, say if your going 40-50mph and your merging onto the freeway or whatever and your throttle sticks. Are you going to wait until your going 110-120 before you try to hit the brakes, turn off the engine, and or shift to neutral?
It was reported the car in question was at one point nearly stopped on the side of the road, then ended up speeding by everyone. IIRC. So you'd think an opportunity existed to try to engage neutral or shut the engine off before going 120mph, but it's dangerous to assume anything.
That said, I think the safest way to test our theory would be on a dyno. That way you have somewhat of a controlled environment and you don't have the possibility of a run away vehicle. You'd at least be able to test if it's possible to engage neutral at max speed and throttle.
Maybe it's time to ask Mythbusters.
To me that confirms my own tests on my own vehicles at 55 and 65 mph.
SHIFT TO NEUTRAL AND LIVE.
Yep...I guess if we're starting to reminisce about old cars and such, maybe that's some evidence right there of "Toyota's Decline" :P
FWIW, here's a 1961 Toyota, to compare to a 1961 Chevy...
I think it actually has sort of a cute, grubby charm to it. Shows how far Toyota has come over the years, though.
However, I do believe that manufacturers are skimping on quality more and more. Even expensive goods have some cheap materials. Either that, or I am getting to that old fogey stage of life when I will say "they just don't make 'em like they used to!" about everything.
Being that I grew up in during the 70's thru 80's I sure hope I can never make that statement.
We don't want to pay for the advancements that have been put into vehicles both voluntarily and by mandate. This may change soon but consider that European vehicle are almost always known for how good a personal vehicle can be in terms of safety, handling, interior content and material quality. Every single vehicle fan site bemoans the lack of content and quality when Euro-vehicles come to N America.
Why? Well we simply won't pay $25000 for a Corolla or $35000+ for a Prius. We want our econo-boxes to be econo-priced. $25000 for a Corolla??? That's stupid, Corolla's should sell for $18,000 MAX.
There is no magical dust that can be spread over N American vehicles to hide the fact that since we demand low prices then we get lower quality products. The N American market gets the decontented versions of the world class products. But this is our choice. If the US driving public wants superior world class products across the product lineups then all we have to do as a society is agree to pay what the Europeans driving public does.
thats kinda catchy...is this toyotas new advertising slogan? :P
if not, you should put it in the suggestion box at work :shades:
I think the December to Remember with the Lexus surging forward and stopping, surging forward and stopping is one to to remember in light of the runaway acceleration problems Toyota is having with several of its lines of cars.
I would think that commercial would disappear faster than a Tiger Woods endorsement, but it's still running!
I can't find a YouTube version to post. If someone finds it, please post it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Americans tend to look at small cars as economical transportation for the most part, so "premium" small cars really won't make it here. There are exceptions, like the Mini, BMW 3-series, Audi A4, Benz C-class, etc, but those are hardly mainstream, mass-market cars. But, Americans will still only put up with so much. Cars are more of a luxury in Europe, where here they tend to be a necessity. So I imagine there are plenty of Europeans who would be willing to own something that we'd consider total crap, simply because, like the GM Goodwrench ad used to say, "It's not just your car, it's your freedom!"
I'd consider those "boutique cars" rather than mainstream mass-market cars. The young women love 'em as those are the people I most likely see driving them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrE4RIulBK8
That's the one. Nicely done. Plays on the good American values in so many ways.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So many memories in that 36-42 month lease period.
Did they ever get to the bottom of that Ford Exploder rollover issue? Certainly it could not have been just the tires. Tires are tires. Got to be something else there somewhere. Maybe top heavy, springs too loose, just poor engineering in general?
It sure was enough to put me off Fords forever. I would not want my family exposed to such poorly engineered and dangerous products. Do you recall how many people lost their lives to these fiery roll overs? I don't think Ford ever did step up. As I recall it was all the fault of the tires according to Ford, but I don't think many people believed that.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
We owned one of those tipsy Explorers. It even had AWD and the 302 V8 which should make the vehicle heavier and a little less tippy. Wrong! I had to make a quick manuever on the Interstate, nothing radical, yet the thing almost flipped. I thought the Firestones were crap (big surprise!), but I believe the vehicle didn't have enough track width for its height. Then came the cruise control fire issue which Ford seemed to make sound like a minor issue until literally thousands of vehicles ended up involved. These things made me start to wonder about integrity issues in Dearborn and whether sales and profits came before product quality and safety. Bringing in Mulallly from Boeing hopefully put product safety and quality higher up their priority chain. Ethics do matter.
over the years, i have owned many vehicles and fords seem to work for me.
you tell me how many people lost their lives in explorer rollovers versus how many have been sold.
my family is living happy healthy lives because when we were hit by a wrong way driver on the interstate, our ford took care of us.
it did suffer a lot of damage. i am thankful the the people in the other vehicle came through ok, as far as i know.
my interest in the topic is analytical, as that is what is do.
i see parallels to the current situation with a certain golfer.
the playbook seems to be the same.
Back several years ago there was a huge article detailing his investigations.
From Wiki
The Ford Explorer was first offered for sale in March 1990. Ford internal documents show the company engineers recommended changes to the vehicle design after it rolled over in company tests prior to introduction, but other than a few minor changes, the suspension and track width were not changed. Instead, Ford, which sets the specifications for the manufacture of its tires, decided to remove air from the tires, lowering the recommended psi to 26. The maximum pressure stamped into the sidewall of the tire was 35psi; however tires should only be inflated to the pressure listed by the vehicle's manufacturer.
According to the finding when the engineers in Ariz found out in the final test track runs a few months before launch that the Explorer rolled easily they didn't stop the launch they demanded that the tires be softened. Firestone caved, Goodyear didn't.
kind of sad. pathetic.
tell you what though, i will help you out. pinto.
They probably had 50 plus pages on the whole thing but to sum it up it was three different groups fault.
Ford primarily because they wanted the Explorer to have a certain aggressive stance so they didn't spec a shorter tire that would have raised the roll center. They did recommend lower tire pressure for a better ride, I remember when these things came into my shop and a tech would ask me WTH was going on with those recommendations. I told him to ignore them and put 32 PSI in the tires. There were other suspension changes they could have done but didn't plus a few other things.
Next fault was Firestone's those tires were iffy at best in hot weather as seen by the problems they had with them in other countries when they were not on Explorers.
The last fault was the owner of the Explorers. People don't check their tire pressures they just don't. Now you go out on a trip with your family in the summer in July when it is 100 degrees plus on the roadway. Your tires that are specked for 26 psi have lost pressure down to 20 psi oh and the car is overloaded by several hundred lbs even if the full 35 psi was in the tires.
The whole situation was just set up to be a recipe for blowouts in hot weather.
In 2004, 92% of first-year Toyota owners were willing to recommend their car to a friend, according to research by Art Spinella at CNW Marketing Research -- a virtual tie with Honda for first among mainstream vehicle brands.
Toyota's "recommendation percentage" fell to 88% this year, trailing Ford, Chevrolet, Honda, Volkswagen and Hyundai.
It also opens the door for aftermarket devices:
Rising concern about runaway acceleration has created an opening for kitchen-table tinkerers like Donald Cook of Ventura. Cook, a veteran auto mechanic, is marketing a $159 device called the Decelerator, which he says will override a vehicle's electronic throttle control during a runaway acceleration episode, reducing a wide-open throttle to idle speed.
Cook is specifically targeting Toyota owners, mentioning the recall prominently in the online ad for his device. Toyota had no comment.
http://mobile.latimes.com/inf/infomo?view=page2&feed:a=latimes_1min&feed:c=busin- essnews&feed:i=50716863&nopaging=1
Is this another bogus device or a legitimate fix for the Toyota ECU?
http://www.thedecelerator.com/aboutus.html
The idea that the computers weren't set up to "quit" accelerating if the brake is pressed should have been a part of all brand's electronic start systems. Even my Whirlpool Cabrio washer and dryer "quit" when pushing the "ON" button again while they're running. There's a separate pause/quit button, but the "ON" button hit twice while running completely shuts down the system.
There should have been a brake system interrupt and should have been a clear shutdown procedure for the "ON" button on those cars. Having to hold for 3 seconds without a notice of same is a crime. Of course if the computer system has completely lost its mind and is doing the "blue screen of death (BSD)" like Microsoft's operating systems... that's another problem that's possible.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
None of Ford's or Government Motor's past or present problems caused the decline in Toyota. Toyota caused it's own decline by cheeping the quality and integrity of it's product. Why not discuss these issues on the Toyota Forum and Ford and GM issues on there respective forums? :confuse:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460