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30% increase in a RAV4 with the 2.5L will only get them 31 MPG. Not enough to catch the FEH.
Actually Toyota is not big on talk at all. It never says anything official until just before the launch of a vehicle. That's why I said, we'll see.
That 30% number was a typical value not an exact coefficient. I should have been more accurate in typing by writing 30-40%.
TCH vs old 2.4L Camry........ 34 vs 25 = 36%
THH vs old 3.3L Highlander.... 26 vs 19 = 37%
35% increase is a more realistic estimate.
TRH* vs 2.5L RAV.............. 33* vs 24 = 37%
*If such a vehicle were to be made.
I think we'll see a 'sportier' Prius ( :surprise: ) first along with a smaller Prius MPV and/or a Sienna hybrid if Edmunds is correct.
It appears that oldtimers disease is beginning to set in there bud. Your posts fly off in a bunch of tangents all the time.
I agree, it is getting colder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEiLgbBGKVk
Toyota is similar to CRU, covering their decline. Trying to keep up with the demise of GM.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-secrecy23-2009dec23,0,5601716.story- ?page=1
The majority of unintended acceleration incidents don't end up in accidents. But even after minor incidents, some consumers have obtained deals under which their cars were repurchased on favorable terms.
Tim Marks, a small businessman in Camden, Ark., parked his daughter's 2006 Lexus IS 250 in front of the dealership last year and said his family would never drive it again after experiencing four sudden-acceleration events.
The vehicle was bought back and the title branded as a lemon, according to vehicle registration records. It was later registered in Florida, suggesting that the dealer resold it.
Much the same thing happened to Joan Marschall, a Visalia resident whose 2003 Camry accelerated on its own three times before she complained.
"I took it to the dealer and said I wouldn't drive it again," Marschall recalled. "I said I don't care if you tell me the computer says nothing happened. I know it did."
Marschall received a lemon buyback too. Registration records show the car was transferred to a new owner in Southern California.
Toyota said it had no policy to repurchase vehicles from customers complaining about sudden acceleration, though its dealers may act on their own to "preserve goodwill."
It would be interesting to follow those cars and interview subsequent owners. So is Toyota saying they have no liability when a car is determined to be a LEMON? It would seem that should fall back on the automaker by law.
Unlike manufacturers such as General Motors Co. and Ford Motor Co., Toyota's data recorders are extremely difficult for non-Toyota personnel to read, said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, a black-box expert who owns a San Diego collision investigation company.
Toyota says it has only one device in the U.S. that can read the data. An operating manual for the device, a copy of which was reviewed by The Times, indicates that it takes two passwords to operate.
On its website, Toyota says that it "will not honor EDR readout requests from private individuals or their attorneys," because its device is a prototype.
How CONVENIENT is that?
No wonder the San Diego Sheriff's have not mentioned the Black Box data. They are being Stonewalled by Toyota. So Toyota is the only one that can read the data? If it is incriminating it is erased and no one can prove anything. There is the answer to what we have all wondered since the accident.
Lot of good reasons why it is NOT driver error as Toyota would like US to believe.
In the ongoing Sienna recall, Toyota is replacing a hard-plastic trim panel over the center console. In its statement to The Times, the automaker said that pedal entrapment could only be caused in the event of a missing attachment clip, which might not be replaced after service work.
The Toyota cover up we are all familiar with:
In September 2005, Toyota recalled nearly 1 million vehicles in the U.S. to replace the part, its second-largest campaign.
It came too late for Zackary Audulewicz of Ila, Ga., relatives said. The 20-year-old was driving his Toyota 4x4 to work in August 2003 when the pickup lost control. A witness said she heard a pop and saw a spark just before the pickup careened off the road, flipped into the air and rolled on its roof. Audulewicz was killed instantly.
A Times investigation shows the world's largest automaker has delayed recalls and attempted to blame human error in cases where owners claimed vehicle defects.
"I feel like they knew about the problem long before the recall," said Don Audulewicz, Zackary's father and one of the plaintiffs in the suits. "I can't understand why whoever was making decisions at Toyota would do that."
And as USUAL:
Toyota declined to discuss the case, citing its policy not to comment on pending litigation.
Will Toyota get their just dues?
E. Todd Tracy, a Texas attorney with 22 years of experience litigating against automakers, believes that Toyota's issues with legal discovery run far deeper than a few sanctions.
Over the last three months, he has moved to reopen 17 lawsuits against the automaker related to vehicle rollovers because he now believes Toyota routinely hid information in those cases.
His argument rests on four boxes of documents submitted by Biller, the former Toyota attorney. The contents have not yet been revealed, but Tracy believes they prove that Toyota hid crucial information about rollovers in those lawsuits.
"This is clearly information that Toyota does not want the public to see," Tracy said. "For years, they were the gold standard, but right now they have more problems than they know what to do with."
so apparently the goal of much hybrid technology is not to reduce fuel imports/use, but to increase driver smugness (and sales, of course!)
No wonder the San Diego Sheriff's have not mentioned the Black Box data. They are being Stonewalled by Toyota. So Toyota is the only one that can read the data? If it is incriminating it is erased and no one can prove anything. There is the answer to what we have all wondered since the accident.
When Toyota reads the SD Lexus' black box a third party with some authority needs to oversee it so they can't..umm...do any sweeping, huh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
No-one at the SD sheriff's office has said they are being stonewalled, right? And since they are the ones charged with an investigation, and since you can bet that as soon as they announce the results it will be broadcast all over the planet, could it be simply that your impatience is getting the better of you here?
Seriously, I find it very easy to believe that Toyota has covered up defects in their vehicles in the last 10 years, but I know it's even easier to stir up rumors on the internet into "the truth", and wouldn't it be much more interesting to know what actually happened?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Meanwhile, my 2 Toyota Camrys (prior generation) keep on humming along.
Merry Christmas everyone!
It has nothing to do with my personal feelings. It is empathy for those that have reported issues to Toyota and were told it was their own error that caused whatever condition. I have not experienced any safety issue that Toyota STONEWALLED me on. Just the NAV/CD player recently which finally died and was replaced.
That has been very controversial among all automakers, not just Toyota, and so has it been with regard to these black boxes. Every automaker treats the black boxes differently, and there is no law yet governing their design or access to them for crash data. Read any car magazine of the last five years and you will find this mentioned, and there are powerful arguments on both sides of the discussion of whether to make them uniform in design and transparent to read, or to leave it up to the automakers' discretion.
There's also the separate issue of who owns the data contained in those black boxes, PARTICULARLY after a bad accident. Is it the car's owner? Some say no. I don't get that. If I own the car, I own the data in its computer(s), seems to me.
Circling back to the whole El Cajon Lexus incident, did the SD sheriff make a conclusive report as to the cause of the crash, and did they feel then that they did not need the data from the black box to make a determination?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, you can't single out Toyota, because most other manufacturers don't either. VW (don't know about Audi) is the only one manufacturer I know of that has a brake interlock that disables throttle function. My 07 Expedtion and the wife's 07 GP both have throttle by wire systems and neither have an override that I know of (I can be on the gas and hit the brakes and the engine doesn't cut out). My Jetta did, if you gave it throttle and hit the brakes at the same time, the throttle was cut immediately.
I'm sure it's for emission control purposes and possibly some performance improvements to (it's probably a must for the latest stability and traction control systems).
Basically, it's my understanding that using a "throttle by wire" setup (electronically controlled throttle), allows the engine management computer to make adjustments based on actual throttle (pedal) input, allowing the computers to make adjustments prior to throttle changes. With the old way, the ECM had to wait for throttle inputs from the throttle position sensor and various other sensors to monitor and control engine functions making it a more reactionary system.
Plus with the latest stability and traction control systems, the computer needs to have full control over the throttle to work as seamless as they currently do. With current engine management controls, the system needs control over the throttle for max emission control too. With the old cable activated throttle, the only way the ecm could control the engine output was by changing spark timing and or fuel delivery. That can create issues (I'd guess emissions related) when air flow into the engine can't be controlled at the same time.
"The automaker redesigned the part and by that June every 2004 model year Sienna off the assembly line came with the new panel. Toyota did not notify tens of thousands of people who had already bought vans with the old panel, however.
"In January, nearly six years after discovering the potential hazard, the automaker recalled 26,501 vans made with the old panel."
Wow. Now that's a customer-oriented company. Put customers at risk for SIX years.
Reading this about Toyo's value placed on customers makes me suspect their actions re the unintended accelerations all the more.
And the part about the ability to read the Black Box being totally controlled by Toyota is concerning.
I think even Firestone wasn't able to stall on their tire recall for that long!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Seems a bit related to the Right to Repair issue.
Indeed there wasn't an electronic connection then. Oddly, one person described it as like the cruise control had engaged--that's on the Audi 5000.
Then in one of the descriptions on the part of a driver of a runaway Toyota the driver stated that it was like the cruise control had engaged.
They both said it felt like cruise control taking over, which I would describe as a smooth but persistent acceleration to reach a set speed instead of a full throttle instantly like a throttle jammed wide open by a mechanical interference or an electronic demand for full throttle.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Which year Camry 4 cylinder automatic transmission models are affected by this particular problem? Is it ONLY the 2002-2009 model year 4 cylinder Camry LE's that are only affected by this issue/problem? Or are the 2010 models with the 4 cylinder engine "ALSO" included in the list and "ALSO" affected by this problem too?
I know that the new 2010 Camry LE's all have a newer engine (2.5L with 6 speed automatic transmission) which is a different engine than the previous year engines (which were the 2.4L engine with 5 speed automatic transmission).
Does the newer 2.5L engine with the 6 speed automatic also have the same throttle and gas peddle jamming problem causing the car to "take off" just like the previous 2002 ~ 2009 Camry 4 cylinders did?
I would like to know.
Thanks
How about naming a few for our info.
Considering code/firmware controls just about everything from planes, trains, automobiles, to an alarm clock. They are nearly impossible to avoid.
Millions of various vehicles are controlled by code/computers with a rate of failure being extremely low, I won't loose any sleep. I guarantee human error is 1000x greater than with these electronic controls.
Hmm, I figured if GM added it to the outgoing 3800 v6 it would just about be on everything. LOL
Various brands have used throttle by wire since the late 90s and with the exception of some soft throttle complaints on the early models there have been no widespread problems. I have to think that if there was some real problem with throttle by wire it would show up in other cars besides these few Toyotas.
Audi did not have the same exact problem back in the 80s. The problem was all driver error and not a electrical or mechanical problem with the car. The pedals were slightly closer together on the hose Audis then other cars and people got confused. There was no problem with those same cars in Europe most likely because Europe's driving test and licensing standards are higher.
I had an XJ Cherokee that had the same sudden acceleration concern and it was also because of the gas and brake being a little closer together then on other cars. It was still driver error on those vehicles too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The floormat recall does include all 2007-10 Camrys.
As was stated above, I'd worry more about human error in driving, like the cabby in a Crown Vic that passed me with his right wheels over the line encroaching on my lane on the narrow Pulaski Skyway heading into New York City a few hours ago! He must have missed my rearview mirror by inches.
I know I will get some people that will say (hope :sick: ) that it is the electronics, but there is NO evidence to support this Assumption. As long as you follow the owner's manual about the floor mats, you will not have any problems.
In another site, there is a guy that knows about the electronic throttles. He says that there is a double check built into the Toyota e-throttle. If the electronic signal does not match the position of the pedal, the signal will be cancelled. In other words, this is a fail-safe system.
Don't forget the media is making a huge deal about this to get ratings. Remember the pick-ups (I think Chevy) that supposedly had the fuel tank problems that would explode or something? At the time, I thought it was BS, and I DID NOT go on and on hoping, whatever that this was a problem. Well, it was later proven that Dateline the TV show rigged the truck to make it look bad for Chevy. Filter what you hear on TV and what you read here carefully. Look for hidden agendas.
I have a 2007 and a 2010. I am NOT AT ALL concerned, because I use the hooks and I only use one all-weather mat. In three years, they NEVER have moved, and are no where near the pedal. My family's safety is EXTREMELY important to me, obviously, and if there was any doubt I would sell, trade, whatever, but there is no doubt that this problem is not an issue, as long as you follow the two simple rules that I listed above and the owner's manual also tells you.
I will also say that I stopped reading this page because of all the garbage I was seeing. But I did a search on 2010 Camry and this came up, so I responded just to your post, not all the other "Stuff".
Anyway, enjoy your car, and Merry Christmas to you.
I have also read about older complaints about hesitation on the earlier Toyota drive by wire systems. Toyota probably has to work out the bugs in their engine control systems.
this should help out with all their recent quality problems :confuse: :sick: :lemon:
According to Edmunds this week ... for 2009 the DBW Camry should be the No 1 selling nameplate in the entire US. That seems to be proof positive that the technologies are working to the public's satisfaction. Our fellow citizens are buying this nameplate more than any other in this down year.
But to be fair, the competition is fierce, and everybody's cutting costs everywhere they can. Cars keep getting better, more complicated, more standard equipment, etc, but the prices really aren't going up. So something has to give, somewhere.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The Tacoma is the best selling midsized truck. Essentially it's driven the other 5 competitors out of the market.
The 4Runner will be the last one standing in the shrinking midsized BOF SUV as the rest of the competitors exit the market.
The new Gen 3 Sienna will remain first or second with the Odyssey.
The Highlander / RX siblings out sell every other midsized crossover on the market.
Your viewpoint is clouded by hatred or at the minimum dislike but what you miss because of your personal prejudices is that the rest of the buying public just doesn't care. It continues to assess its purchases by each individual experience not somebody's reported problem or some hate-filled poster on an obscure thread.
Look at reality. This is a business. The only metric that has any value is sales. Given the above examples you're going to have to be holding your breath for a very very long time if you expect to see some declines...in fact the trend seems to be going the other way.
Well it looks like everyone else is not doing the same. Look out Toyota because Ford is coming to get you. Before you reply with Toyota hater I do own a 08 Tacoma.
FORD VEHICLE RESIDUAL VALUES RISE $1,300 ON AVERAGE FROM 2009 TO 2010 MODEL YEAR; INDUSTRY'S LARGEST GAIN•The projected resale value of 2010 Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles after 36 months in service increased by an average of $1,310 per vehicle compared to the 2009 model year – the industry's largest increase among full-line manufacturers
•The improvement allowed Ford to narrow the residual value gap with leading Asian automakers and maintain its advantage over U.S.-based automakers
•The 2010 Ford Fusion is expected to bring customers $687 more than the 2010 Toyota Camry after 36 months in service; the residual value of the 2010 Ford Flex commands an $1,800 premium over the Toyota Highlander
•Improved quality, new features and popular redesigned products are helping to boost Ford's residual values. Ford improved more than any other automaker in ALG's Perceived Quality Survey released in the fall of 2009
•Compete Inc., a Massachusetts research firm that studies online car shopping, says Ford has surpassed Toyota in customer consideration for the first time since it began tracking such data in 2002. Compete data show Ford surpassed Toyota in customer consideration in September, October and November
Business is never a static condition. There is always turnover. Nothing new to see here. Hyundai is mainly gaining at the expense of Chrysler IMO and all the fleet sales that the D3 are walking away from. Honda is the surprising one that's taking a serious pounding this year. I'm guessing that the Ford gains are primarily at Honda's expense.
The Corolla isthisclose to outselling the Accord for the first time ever, I believe that it was ahead of the Accord by 18 or 20 units as of Nov 30th.
Both Ford and Hyundai are doing a great job this year. If Hyundai ever attempted to develop the retail network of the J3 to the point where it might seriously be a competitor you'd see the J3 drop their prices so fast that Hyundai would be squashed ( that was part of the Scion experiment ). Right now Hyundai is in 7th place....a very distant 7th place with a limited product lineup and very limited sales network. Barring a merger of some kind Hyundai's not going to be moving up very fast. It's not like nobody knows about them.
If I were Toyota, I'd be worried about the Koreans as much as I'd be worried about Ford's resurgence.
Some more numbers - Toyota did fine over the last decade:
The Decade's Winners and Losers: The Data (AutoObserver)