The fix for Toyota pedals appears to have arrived. Here`s the link: link title
And to all the naysayers,dont worry Toyota ain`t going anywhere. :P Just a minor blip on the radar !! The D3 have been making crap for so long and continue to do so especially Chrysler and GM that there is just no redeeming them. :shades: I hope Toyota gets to the root of these problems,fixes them,resumes intense quality checks and limit their rapid expansion by not compromising on reliability which is their forte. And just an added note - the company that makes these defective pedals is named CTS ! CTS-the most popular Cadillac sedan. Seems GM even indirectly, inadvertently , unintentionally can get unto problems..Sorry, just could not resist this dig !!
How can you continue to defend Toyota like that? Sticking accelerator pedals? Nothing is more frightening when this happens to you. It happened to me long ago, and luckily I knew what to do, shift to neutral, turn off the key, be ready for the loss of power brakes & steering, and pull to the side. It is frightening!!! You have very few seconds to decide what to do before panic sets in. What if you are in heavy traffic? Bad weather? Even more frightening.
My 06 Tundra I had was delivered to me with 3 tires out of round. I've replaced an O2 sensor on my sons 04 Tacoma, out of warranty to the tune of $340, as well as my friends did on their 04 Prerunner, also out of warranty.
Pile that on top of arrogant dealers who use old school sales tactics and then upsell service and I won't ever own another Toyota. They have lost my business!!!
I would have been glad to get 5 or 6 years out of an O2 sensor on any of my Fords (The only real thing I ever had problems with on them) I actually went through 3 of them on a Probe GT in the 100k that I owned it. :surprise:
Will Toyota do the right thing and replace the throttles in the 2.3 million vehicles before they use them for their inventory. The factory will take over a year to produce enough for the cars that are on recall.
Despite the good news for anyone considering the purchase of a Toyota model affected by the recall, Automotive News rightly points out that current owners may not benefit as quickly. There are 2.3 million vehicles in customers' driveways that require the replacement part, but AN sources say the plant that makes them has an annual capacity of just 2 million. Considering that Toyota's assembly plants also need to be supplied, we're wondering how Toyota will be able to fix each recalled vehicle in a timely manner.
The NHTSA needs to hold Toyota's feet to the fire on this one. Every recalled vehicle should be repaired before they use the parts on any new vehicles.
Just curious, who pays the bill for the dealer's cost for the vehicles to sit on the back lot. Those things all have floor plan costs. Who pays the rental car companies for lost revenue since they now have many fewer vehicles?
When did they start putting O2 sensors in cars, anyway? I've never had to have one replaced, although I remember in my '88 LeBaron, I had the wire to a sensor burn up, and it caused the car to constantly over-rev. As I recall, that sensor was just before the catalytic converter...would that be the O2 sensor?
Did they use O2 sensors in 1970's cars? I guess my '85 Silverado probably has one, but I wonder if my '79 New Yorkers or '76 LeMans would have one?
I've heard they're a real pain to get to on some Nissan models. I think they bury 'em under the intake manifold, or something like that?
Not sure, but I would guess they were implemented within the last 20 years or so...
For a short time I had a Nissan Hardbody, '94 pickup that I ended up giving to my uncle because the frame was so rotted out from being on the Cape. He confirmed what a nightmare it was to replace the O2 sensor on it but the truck also had somewhere around 165k on it.
We were stuck with the floorplan costs on the cars that we had in stock for previous recalls but we didn't floorplan through the factory. I can see if a dealership floorplaned through Toyota then maybe Toyota would offer some kind of relief.
Oh please, aren't you being a little overly dramatic?
Ever have a cancer diagnosis? Fought in a war? Run into a burning building. You know, serious stuff, not just some car malfunction that's easily handled. People have successfully dealt with stuck gas pedals since the invention of the automobile. And that includes me.
How about I was just about to put my family in car that potential can crash. How about I spent hours upon hours making the decision to buy. How about the down payment I put on the car aleady. How about you have no idea what the situation is. Maybe I got rid of my old car now and have no car. Hence I have to rent a car or miss work.
How about toyota and all car delearships will try to get money out anyone who does not have the skills or determination to negotiate. It is game and you take advantage of what you can. If I had bad credit for some reason they would hold that against me and charge me more financing.
Do I need to go on? And if you consider the safety of yourself and your family a little thing then you may need to evaluate your situation.
Oh please, aren't you being a little overly dramatic?
Ever have a cancer diagnosis? Fought in a war? Run into a burning building. You know, serious stuff, not just some car malfunction that's easily handled. People have successfully dealt with stuck gas pedals since the invention of the automobile. And that includes me.
Cancer? Nope, fortunately. In a war? Nope, again fortunately. Run in to burning buildings? LOL, please stop doing that, you might get burned.
Good for you, you know how to handle a sticky accelerator pedal. I do too.
Good for you, you know how to handle a sticky accelerator pedal. I do too.
Same here, but to be honest, I haven't had to deal with one in about 15 years. But we're also car guys here, and probably more knowledgeable about what to do than most of the masses out there. Just for kicks, ask a couple people that aren't "car people" what they'd do if their car suddenly accelerated for seemingly no reason, and see how they respond. I've tried it and gotten a few responses like "ummmmm...." and "I don't know", etc.
And sometimes it can happen so fast, that it's almost over before it happens. My grandparents had a 1981 Dodge D-50 pull a sudden acceleration stunt in 1982 at the gas station. Everything happened so fast that before they knew it, they were over the embankment in back, among the trees, and it was all over. I also don't think they ever found out why it suddenly accelerated. The insurance company paid to fix the truck, but they were spooked by it and didn't trust it anymore. Sold it to a neighbor down the street, and he had it for easily 10-12 more years, and never had a problem.
I have been showing customers how to handle sticking pedals or a runway car for the past couple of months. Not all of them but the ones that seem particularly car challenged I guess. They were pretty clueless on what to do if something like that happened.
my wife currently drives an 09 Matrix, a 35 mile commute each way in City and Hwy traffic. She loves the car, and happily brags on her 30 mpgs. When I mentioned the Toyota 'recall' and told her what it was about, and also told her to maybe be ready to simply shutoff the ignition and/or shift into neutral - she looked at me like I had l had just insulted her intelligence. Seems that she had a Volvo many years back that the same thing happened to her, and she handled it properly (on a snow covered road) with no prompting from anybody. A simple throttle cable back then that apparently got stuck and then broke with the throttle in a partially open position according to her. Not to excuse Toyota or anybody else, they do have a problem that obviously needs prompt attention, but whatever happened to any concept of personal responsibilities and an even reasonable expection of abilities. S*** does happen and we should all be anticipating to be able to handle whatever it is, without calling in a legion of silly Saturday night lawyers. And then we have folks out there that think they should be able to profit from the it? :mad: - give me a break.
First vehicle that I know had an O2 sensor in my fleet was the old Windstall. Of course the only reason I know it had it was having to replace it.
I think O2 sensors exist with fuel injection. I know my '85 Jetta had one. I suspect many of the domestics only got them later, since they were slower to use fuel injection.
Electronic Fuel injection pretty much requires O2 sensors. Some of the early TBI setups might not have had O2 sensors but anything Multi-port and electronic did.
How about I was just about to put my family in car that potential can crash. How about I spent hours upon hours making the decision to buy. How about the down payment I put on the car aleady. How about you have no idea what the situation is. Maybe I got rid of my old car now and have no car. Hence I have to rent a car or miss work.
How about toyota and all car delearships will try to get money out anyone who does not have the skills or determination to negotiate. It is game and you take advantage of what you can. If I had bad credit for some reason they would hold that against me and charge me more financing.
It is my (limited) understanding of the law that when damages occur, you can get money. If you are injured you are damaged. If your property is damaged then that applies. If you just had a purchase transaction messed up because a vehicle had some small chance of having a problem, and you NEVER drove it, and you NEVER had any problems with it, then that is NOT damages. Heck, I flew on Southwest the other day, and you know 737's have crashed before, so I should get some money, right?
Frankly,this problem is very rare.It " may" occur in 1 in 100,000.And suddenly ,so many folks with Toyotas have sudden acceleration.Not letting Toyota of the hook here by any means,but why is that when something like this is reported suddenly thousands and millions of owners have this problem which until now they never experienced. :confuse:
There is as much consumer fraud out there as there are lawyers.Certainly,Toyota must fix these pedals before resuming production but at the same time there are unscrupulous folks out there who do more damage to the folks who genuinely need help.
This recall,even though forced it may be ,is absolutely the right thing but it`s not going to be cheap.It will cost Toyota millions or even billions.If it was any D3 company that was involved in such a massive recall,they would have folded up by now without any govt. help.Hope Toyota steps up to the plate and resumes its quality reliable production.Once in a while even the best need a kick up the backside or they become complacent like the D3. :surprise:
"Frankly,this problem is very rare.It " may" occur in 1 in 100,000.And suddenly ,so many folks with Toyotas have sudden acceleration.Not letting Toyota of the hook here by any means,but why is that when something like this is reported suddenly thousands and millions of owners have this problem which until now they never experienced."
Exact thoughts here as well. I would imagine that any accidents from here on out involving a Toyota product have an Alibi to fall back on as well. :sick:
Actually, some mechanical injections did require an O2 sensor. The Bosch K-Jetronic, aka 'Continuous Injection System' (CIS), was a mechanical fuel injection with continuous, rather than pulsed, flow to the injectors. Most engines that used the K-Jetronic system did not use Lamba closed loop O2-based systems, but some did, including the 8-valve SAAB 900 "H engine." The Bosch K-Jetronic system was used from 1974 to 1988.
I am not saying give me money to give me money. I am saying for continuing to go ahead with a purchase that most/some people would bail out on this would help me negotitate. If I did not commit last week and walked in next week they will be offering incentives to bing customers back. So why can I not take advantage. I have driven Toyota for 14 of my 16 years of driving, including 6 different cars.
If anyone should benefit why not the loyal customer.
If Southwest was taking a PR hit and customers were fleeign you would benefit in the price by booking a flight with them.
Also, for those who think it is so simple to just put the car in neutral and slow down. Sometimes you do not have the time for this and other times people panic. This is not a driving issue, this is a mechanical failure issue.
What's there to find amusing? It's a serious deal, I'm not denying that it doesn't exist. My point was that I was agreeing with del that for something that is supposedly rare, all of a sudden we have people coming out of the woodwork claiming they have self-accelerating vehicles. Lots of them are first time posters here on Edmunds as well who could damn well be just stirring the pot
But I digress, my point about an "Alibi" is that how many fender benders down the road caused by someone taking their eyes off the road or not paying attention are going to be blamed on accelerator pedals? How many high speed collisions due to a persons neglegance to obey speed laws are going to be blamed on accelerator pedals? The statistics are not there but I'd wager to think there will be plenty. And the amulance chasers are going to eat this one up like a 5-star dinner.
BTW, I've never owned a Toyota so I have no experience with this phenomenon but I am an engineer and I would suspect something like this doesn't work in absolutes where one day everything is fine and the next day it's stuck for good. Sorry, I don't believe that stiction is instananeously permanent. Sorry, uh uh, no way. :sick:
I'm sorry to hear you feel like you were somehow blindsided by your Toyota dealer but as far as I can tell from your original post, you should not be obligated to take this vehicle if your dealer tells you can't have it due to the recall. Just don't take delivery and move on to a Honda or something else. :shades:
Did NHTSA know of Toyota woes back in 2004? by Chris Shunk (RSS feed) on Jan 28th 2010 at 2:31PM
From the "This story just keeps getting uglier" department comes a new bit of information concerning Toyota and its growing sticky pedal problem. The Detroit Free Press is reporting that Toyota and the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration were looking into the problem back in 2004, but an interesting twist led the investigation down a path that ultimately turned up nothing.
The Freep says that this early investigation was strictly limited to incidents of unintended acceleration lasting one second or less, which strikes us as odd considering prolonged periods unintended acceleration are a lot more dangerous than a blip of the throttle. And this is where the story gets a bit tricky. The Freep reports that a 2008 lawsuit stemming from an alleged unintended acceleration-related death of a woman driving a 2005 Camry says that the decision was made to limit the investigation right after a former NHTSA employee, Christopher Santucci, took a job with Toyota The lawsuit alleges that the new Toyota employee negotiated a deal with his former coworkers at NHTSA to limit the investigation of unintended acceleration claims to instances of one second or less. Santucci said in a deposition that the NHTSA investigation involved 2002 and 2003 Toyota Camry, Solaras and Lexus ES300 models. NHTSA had reportedly received 139 complaints in the 2004 investigation, but found no defects..
Now that Toyota has officially recalled millions of vehicles, the question remains whether these older models will eventually be recalled as well. The short answer is that we have no idea, but former NHTSA head Joan Claybrook feels that the government safety agency should have taken unintended acceleration claims more seriously in the past.
Good for you, you know how to handle a sticky accelerator pedal. I do too.
Same here, but to be honest, I haven't had to deal with one in about 15 years. But we're also car guys here, and probably more knowledgeable about what to do than most of the masses out there. Just for kicks, ask a couple people that aren't "car people" what they'd do if their car suddenly accelerated for seemingly no reason, and see how they respond. I've tried it and gotten a few responses like "ummmmm...." and "I don't know", etc.
I wonder what the California State Trooper would have said if you'd asked him that question a day before his tragic wreck....
Remember Sean Kane? He's still birddogging this issue:
""In the past, Toyota has actually done technical bulletins to reflash the algorithms in their control units to prevent unintended acceleration incidents," he said."
Also, for those who think it is so simple to just put the car in neutral and slow down. Sometimes you do not have the time for this and other times people panic. This is not a driving issue, this is a mechanical failure issue.
WRONG, as you described, it is a driving/driver issue, and a driver error. If the driver could have taken action(s) to stop an incident or tragic situation from happening, and doesn't do so for some reason, or fails to do so, then that is on them. It is driver failure to not do the right thing. If you got a license then you should know how to operate a vehicle, and that includes when something goes wrong, such as a stuck accelerator. Didn't anyone else remember their traffic safety course in high school?
Panic is not an excuse for failure. Panic may have cause a driver to be incompetent and negligent, but it doesnt excuse it. You have a duty to MITIGATE damages when something goes wrong, and by not putting it in neutral or turning off the ignition when the accelerator gets stuck (or unsticking it manually), then you are failing to meet your duty to mitigate the damages, and you will not be due any compensation for that failure.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
It isn't Toyota's fault that Rental car companies have CHOSEN on their own not to rent out Toyotas. If a rental car company chooses to do that, then that is their own poor business decision and they have to live with it's costs.
Same if you bought a Toyota. If you feel you can't drive it even though it's given you no problems thus far, then that's on you. Lighting could strike you tomorrow too so you better not go outside.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm guessing, speculation here, that when this is resolved that there will be solid rebates on the first ones moved. It may last 30 or 60 days as a thank you for loyalty.
In addition, anybody now in a Government Motors vehicle that wants to be done with a company living off the public dole might qualify for another $1000 rebate. I can see a lot of 'red-staters' and 'tea baggers' stepping up to take advantage of this opportunity.
ABC News Thursday evening interviewed CTS, supplier of the pedal. The representative said Toyota told them that is not the problem for the MAJOR crashes which had occurred. There is something else in the electronics.
"But even the company's own supplier, Indiana-based CTS, says Toyota is far from done in ending the problem of runaway cars -- and that Toyota told it none of the serious accidents or deaths linked to runaway cars was caused by "sticky" gas pedals. "Whether or not sticking gas pedals are the cause of random acceleration in Toyotas, there are many reports of runaway Toyotas that are not on the list of models recalled by the company to replace the pedals. "
It isn't Toyota's fault that Rental car companies have CHOSEN on their own not to rent out Toyotas. If a rental car company chooses to do that, then that is their own poor business decision and they have to live with it's costs.
Hmmm, bad business decision by the rental car companies? I think not.
Let's see:
Toyota issues recall and stops manufacture of defective vehicles due to sticky accelerator pedals.
Hertz continues to rent out said vehicles after knowing of their defect.
Customer rents defective vehicle.
Vehicle's accelerator pedal sticks causing major accident killing 6 people.
Now you tell me, who do you think will get sued?
No rental car company in their right mind will rent out a vehicle with an outstanding safety recall against it. There is too much liability.
I saw a similar interview on NBC news tonight. The CTS rep. acknowledged it was their product that was involved, but stated their product was built according to Toyota specs. This sounds eerily familiar to the Ford Explorer / Firestone tire debacle.
I'm guessing, speculation here, that when this is resolved that there will be solid rebates on the first ones moved. It may last 30 or 60 days as a thank you for loyalty.
Yeah I think Toyota will certainly do somethin to "win back" the faithful. No one goes out and buys a Toyota for its styling. Other than reliability, there is no compelling reason to buy a Toyota, so with that slightly tarnished, I expect some "welcoming back" on their end.
In addition, anybody now in a Government Motors vehicle that wants to be done with a company living off the public dole might qualify for another $1000 rebate. I can see a lot of 'red-staters' and 'tea baggers' stepping up to take advantage of this opportunity.
I believe those guys that just announced a profit today are going to have a similar deal, and they aren't owned by you and I (well, unless you have stock, which has gone from $1 to $12...). And that other H company that is eating everyone's lunch (got some seat time in a Genesis coupe this weekend, 4 cylinder turbo 6 speed manual RWD $22k, wow) might pick up a few sales.
From a reliability standpoint, the playing field is pretty level. From an innovation/feature content standpoint, there are other companies that offer more.
Toyota isn't stupid. Secretive and obnoxious maybe, but this will be a good wake up call for them, they will heal and grow going forward.
Based on information about knowing about this problem since 2004 and how they've handled information, I think "deceptive" needs to in your list of adjectives.
Some compared the trail of problems here as paralleling the Tylenol problems years ago. They said Toyota would recover just fine after the problem is "fixed."
The Tylenol problem was someone contaminating containers of Tyler. It was not the company manufacturing defective Tylenol nor was Miles Labs misleading about what was being learned for a long period of time as the first people died from cyanide poisoning, which is not a nice way to die.
Judging by the TV publicity, this won't be immediately forgotten. If Toyota had acted on finding and fixing the causes early on (2007 perhaps) then the reporters and industry analysts might be forgiving when fixes are in place. As further info comes out about how this has been spun by the company to minimize the impact, The reporters have found blood on someone who tried to mislead them.
I think the video of security people wearing face masks as if the US reporters were diseased in Japan ordering the ABC cameras off Toyota headquarters property is probably the one defining video.
if Toyota will eventually discover what actually IS the problem here. My biggest concern if I were on the board over there would be that the company might stumble around in the dark trying fix after fix and still not solve the problem.
At first I bought into the CTS vs Denso throttles theory, but if CTS can redesign it in a few days and claim the problem is solved, it can't have been much of a fix, and I would expect the problems to continue.
Is the software faulty in these cars? Can Toyota make the whole problem go away by building every new car (and retrofitting millions and millions of cars sold in the last five years) with a brake fail-safe system that kills the throttle at the first hint of brake application? If they did that, it might solve the problem even though the real defect were never discovered at all.
I guess I just don't understand how a company with an engineering department as MASSIVE as Toyota's can't figure out where the problem really lies here....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Never underestimate the power of fear, paranoia, and panic on American consumers - most of their choices are guided by this triumvirate. To do so can be fatal to your sales and future outlook......
Oh, and as for the ones that have been here quite some time as Toyota owners are not likely to bail..... I think I have told you once or twice before that this 25-year Toyota owner (and 10-year Edmunds poster) won't be buying Toyotas in the future, but of course that's not because I'm scared of them, it's just because I think they kinda suck now and certainly aren't the value they once were....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You had bailed already and as you say for other reasons. That's part of the give and take going on every year across the entire spectrum. I personally know 10 to 20 new Prius owners in the last year that never had Toyota's before. They are in love with them.
As I said this will certainly have an effect in the public's eye. But who is this nebulous 'public'? Well it's made up of UAW workers, Honda Odyssey and Civic si fans, GM'ers that wish the 60s and 70s never ended, F150 die hards in Texas, and various other groups who would rather be eaten by pirhannas than set foot in a Toyota store. Yes these groups will definitely have their anti-feelings reconfimed and set in stone. This is probably a good one third of the population of vehicle buyers. :surprise:
Then there are the fence-sitters. Another 30% to 50%. They don't hate Toyota but they aren't going to give it a try for a while and that's understandable.
Then there are the loyal owners that have had no issues and are pleased with their vehicles. It's a significant percentage of the 30 to 40 million who now own and drive Toyota's daily. Being human and self-centered at the core they look out for themselves first and if they're satisfied with their experience then why should they switch? Hey a bunch of people bought Toyotas today all over the country; Camrys, Corollas, RAVs, Highlanders and Prius'.
The world did not end. Life goes on, it's the same - only different.
Don't forget the millions who still haven't heard about Toyota's problems.
Remember Cash for Clunkers? There were news stories and political debates about it for weeks on end, but when the program was actually implemented, huge numbers of people seemed to come out of the woodwork wanting to know what it was about. I saw a post just a week or so ago from someone wondering if they should clunk out a problem vehicle.
I was thinking the same thing as you, but coming to a potentially different conclusion.
If Toyota moves quickly, fesses up, and fixes the problems, then it will hurt them big time for a year or two but their massive halt of amnufacturing, and millions of fixes, will preserve their reputation over the longer haul.
If Toyota doesn't move quickly, or if it comes out that they have been deceptive or hiding things for years (not what is said in this forum, but real evidence that is well understood and publicized), then it will really hurt Toyota for an awfully long time.
Although Toy's situation looks really bad right now, compare that to Ford's hiding of the Pinto problems or GM's engine mount problems or Ford's tranny and engine block problems on the Windstall, etc. Consumers don't punish companies so much for having problems, they punish companies for not fixing problems or denying those problems exist. Witness Honda's fessing up to their transmission problems and replacing many trannys - and their reputation is pretty much intact (although perhaps not by some in these forums).
but, look at how well Ford is doing right now, even after the Pinto debacle, Exploder problems, etc. Regardless of their reaction to those problems and the action or lack of action they took to remedy those problems, the public has a decent view of Ford in the U.S. right now.
Judging by only that, although we know it's true we don't know what's gonna happen with this UA issue, Toyota should make choices that will remedy this current problem. The recall is already underway and the production lines are stopped on what, 8 Toyota rigs right now? And sales are halted on those rigs as well. Whoa, horseys.
So, though we can't see clearly the future, judging solely on how apt the U.S. carbuyers view Fo-Mo-Co and are purchasing Ford's and/or praising Ford for it's new stable it's producing and for it's 2009 total year profit, even with some very real historical engineering goof-ups, I would venture a guess that the public will forgive and mostly forget Toyota's current troubles.
This will take a while. I'm in kdh's fencesitter category regarding Toyota. I've wanted two Toyota's in my life. A 2006 Scion xA and a 2005 Scion tC RS 1.0. Didn't get either one of them. Don't hate Toyota but have nothing invested in them and don't need them around to choose from, to be totally honest. Too many choices I like better than Toyota to buy from.
But most of us carnuts here on Edmund's have been following the story of the SD CHP off-duty cop and his family in their rental Lexus sedan, their horrible demise. Once that story broke and we started chatting about it in here I was glued to it like Gary Payton on Michael Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals. Sure Michael broke free occasionally, but hey, we're talkin' about MJ here. MJ breaks free on everybody, even great defenders like GP. I see Toyota as too huge to be tipped over by this.
Though they've got a tough road to hoe here, also. Lots of work ahead. Incredibly important story here, public relations 101 unfolding right before our very eyes. :surprise:
>And sales are halted on those rigs as well. Whoa, horseys.... the public will forgive and mostly forget Toyota's current troubles.
The difference between Tylenol and cyanide is that the potassium cyanide was not put into the pills by Miles Labs, if I recall the manufacturer at the time correctly.
Miles Labs didn't try to coverup the presence of cyanide by saying that people died because they ate the cotton ball that was inside the cap. Miles Labs didn't employ a person who had been in the Food and Drug Administration and use his contacts to knowledge to construct how the deaths and illnesses were reported to the FDA so that the severity of the problem was occluded. Miles Labs didn't keep producing and selling the pills with their defective content for years after initially noting the problem of its causing illness.
With Ford, IIRC the Ford MOCO wanted the low air pressures on the rear to keep the Explorer from having enough grip to cause a rollover in the event of a sideways skid. Then people allowed pressures to drop lower than even recommended causing the tires to decompose under certain road use conditions. FoMoCo was able to deflect some blame to Firestone, but it actually went back to the high center of gravity in the Explorer and Ford's attempt to bandaide the problem rather than improve the product. Because Ford was able to deflect part of the blame, but sales of Explorers were slow after that.
The acceleration problems have gone on for a long time known to people interested in cars such as Edmunds. But notice the reaction when it was on ABC, NBC, CBS with some investigative reporting explaining what really was occurring. Notice people having heard those reports refusing to drive their car.
Over a nation of Toyota users forum, one person theorized that there's more than mats and sticking accelerator electronics. That person theorized that the opportunity to reflash the computer to include brake-to-idle for engine speed would allow reflashing other "flaws" in the programming without public exposure.
Hopefully Toyota won't have to spend too long under the cloud if they can come clean about all that they know about the problem
"look at how well Ford is doing right now, even after the Pinto debacle"
That was 30+ years ago. and look at the percentage of the market Ford owns now compared to the 70s. I would say that statement would be an good reason to dump your Toyota stock before it does what Fords did over the past 30 years. I know Ford stock has gone up alot in the past 6 months but that is only because it was down to $1.50 a share. I believe Toyota is done as the heavy weight champion. It will be interesting how Toyota will handle this steep decline that they have been in for the last few years. I can not understand how Toyota made the same mistakes as the D-3 have made in years past. I thought they were better than that
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And to all the naysayers,dont worry Toyota ain`t going anywhere. :P
Just a minor blip on the radar !! The D3 have been making crap for so long and continue to do so especially Chrysler and GM that there is just no redeeming them. :shades:
I hope Toyota gets to the root of these problems,fixes them,resumes intense quality checks and limit their rapid expansion by not compromising on reliability which is their forte.
And just an added note - the company that makes these defective pedals is named CTS ! CTS-the most popular Cadillac sedan. Seems GM even indirectly, inadvertently , unintentionally can get unto problems..Sorry, just could not resist this dig !!
My 06 Tundra I had was delivered to me with 3 tires out of round. I've replaced an O2 sensor on my sons 04 Tacoma, out of warranty to the tune of $340, as well as my friends did on their 04 Prerunner, also out of warranty.
Pile that on top of arrogant dealers who use old school sales tactics and then upsell service and I won't ever own another Toyota. They have lost my business!!!
Despite the good news for anyone considering the purchase of a Toyota model affected by the recall, Automotive News rightly points out that current owners may not benefit as quickly. There are 2.3 million vehicles in customers' driveways that require the replacement part, but AN sources say the plant that makes them has an annual capacity of just 2 million. Considering that Toyota's assembly plants also need to be supplied, we're wondering how Toyota will be able to fix each recalled vehicle in a timely manner.
The NHTSA needs to hold Toyota's feet to the fire on this one. Every recalled vehicle should be repaired before they use the parts on any new vehicles.
Did they use O2 sensors in 1970's cars? I guess my '85 Silverado probably has one, but I wonder if my '79 New Yorkers or '76 LeMans would have one?
I've heard they're a real pain to get to on some Nissan models. I think they bury 'em under the intake manifold, or something like that?
For a short time I had a Nissan Hardbody, '94 pickup that I ended up giving to my uncle because the frame was so rotted out from being on the Cape. He confirmed what a nightmare it was to replace the O2 sensor on it but the truck also had somewhere around 165k on it.
Ever have a cancer diagnosis? Fought in a war? Run into a burning building. You know, serious stuff, not just some car malfunction that's easily handled. People have successfully dealt with stuck gas pedals since the invention of the automobile. And that includes me.
John
How about toyota and all car delearships will try to get money out anyone who does not have the skills or determination to negotiate. It is game and you take advantage of what you can. If I had bad credit for some reason they would hold that against me and charge me more financing.
Do I need to go on? And if you consider the safety of yourself and your family a little thing then you may need to evaluate your situation.
Ever have a cancer diagnosis? Fought in a war? Run into a burning building. You know, serious stuff, not just some car malfunction that's easily handled. People have successfully dealt with stuck gas pedals since the invention of the automobile. And that includes me.
Cancer? Nope, fortunately. In a war? Nope, again fortunately. Run in to burning buildings? LOL, please stop doing that, you might get burned.
Good for you, you know how to handle a sticky accelerator pedal. I do too.
Same here, but to be honest, I haven't had to deal with one in about 15 years. But we're also car guys here, and probably more knowledgeable about what to do than most of the masses out there. Just for kicks, ask a couple people that aren't "car people" what they'd do if their car suddenly accelerated for seemingly no reason, and see how they respond. I've tried it and gotten a few responses like "ummmmm...." and "I don't know", etc.
And sometimes it can happen so fast, that it's almost over before it happens. My grandparents had a 1981 Dodge D-50 pull a sudden acceleration stunt in 1982 at the gas station. Everything happened so fast that before they knew it, they were over the embankment in back, among the trees, and it was all over. I also don't think they ever found out why it suddenly accelerated. The insurance company paid to fix the truck, but they were spooked by it and didn't trust it anymore. Sold it to a neighbor down the street, and he had it for easily 10-12 more years, and never had a problem.
When I mentioned the Toyota 'recall' and told her what it was about, and also told her to maybe be ready to simply shutoff the ignition and/or shift into neutral - she looked at me like I had l had just insulted her intelligence.
Seems that she had a Volvo many years back that the same thing happened to her, and she handled it properly (on a snow covered road) with no prompting from anybody. A simple throttle cable back then that apparently got stuck and then broke with the throttle in a partially open position according to her.
Not to excuse Toyota or anybody else, they do have a problem that obviously needs prompt attention, but whatever happened to any concept of personal responsibilities and an even reasonable expection of abilities. S*** does happen and we should all be anticipating to be able to handle whatever it is, without calling in a legion of silly Saturday night lawyers.
And then we have folks out there that think they should be able to profit from the it? :mad: - give me a break.
I think O2 sensors exist with fuel injection. I know my '85 Jetta had one. I suspect many of the domestics only got them later, since they were slower to use fuel injection.
Mechanical injection didn't require O2 sensors.
How about toyota and all car delearships will try to get money out anyone who does not have the skills or determination to negotiate. It is game and you take advantage of what you can. If I had bad credit for some reason they would hold that against me and charge me more financing.
It is my (limited) understanding of the law that when damages occur, you can get money. If you are injured you are damaged. If your property is damaged then that applies. If you just had a purchase transaction messed up because a vehicle had some small chance of having a problem, and you NEVER drove it, and you NEVER had any problems with it, then that is NOT damages. Heck, I flew on Southwest the other day, and you know 737's have crashed before, so I should get some money, right?
There is as much consumer fraud out there as there are lawyers.Certainly,Toyota must fix these pedals before resuming production but at the same time there are unscrupulous folks out there who do more damage to the folks who genuinely need help.
This recall,even though forced it may be ,is absolutely the right thing but it`s not going to be cheap.It will cost Toyota millions or even billions.If it was any D3 company that was involved in such a massive recall,they would have folded up by now without any govt. help.Hope Toyota steps up to the plate and resumes its quality reliable production.Once in a while even the best need a kick up the backside or they become complacent like the D3. :surprise:
Exact thoughts here as well. I would imagine that any accidents from here on out involving a Toyota product have an Alibi to fall back on as well. :sick:
I like the "We stand behind our products!" Err not in front of them :;-)
If anyone should benefit why not the loyal customer.
If Southwest was taking a PR hit and customers were fleeign you would benefit in the price by booking a flight with them.
Also, for those who think it is so simple to just put the car in neutral and slow down. Sometimes you do not have the time for this and other times people panic. This is not a driving issue, this is a mechanical failure issue.
But I digress, my point about an "Alibi" is that how many fender benders down the road caused by someone taking their eyes off the road or not paying attention are going to be blamed on accelerator pedals? How many high speed collisions due to a persons neglegance to obey speed laws are going to be blamed on accelerator pedals? The statistics are not there but I'd wager to think there will be plenty. And the amulance chasers are going to eat this one up like a 5-star dinner.
BTW, I've never owned a Toyota so I have no experience with this phenomenon but I am an engineer and I would suspect something like this doesn't work in absolutes where one day everything is fine and the next day it's stuck for good. Sorry, I don't believe that stiction is instananeously permanent. Sorry, uh uh, no way. :sick:
I'm sorry to hear you feel like you were somehow blindsided by your Toyota dealer but as far as I can tell from your original post, you should not be obligated to take this vehicle if your dealer tells you can't have it due to the recall. Just don't take delivery and move on to a Honda or something else. :shades:
No amusement here guy.
the dealer could not deliver, so the
contract/sale is void and you get all your money back *immediately*.
Did NHTSA know of Toyota woes back in 2004?
by Chris Shunk (RSS feed) on Jan 28th 2010 at 2:31PM
From the "This story just keeps getting uglier" department comes a new bit of information concerning Toyota and its growing sticky pedal problem. The Detroit Free Press is reporting that Toyota and the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration were looking into the problem back in 2004, but an interesting twist led the investigation down a path that ultimately turned up nothing.
The Freep says that this early investigation was strictly limited to incidents of unintended acceleration lasting one second or less, which strikes us as odd considering prolonged periods unintended acceleration are a lot more dangerous than a blip of the throttle. And this is where the story gets a bit tricky. The Freep reports that a 2008 lawsuit stemming from an alleged unintended acceleration-related death of a woman driving a 2005 Camry says that the decision was made to limit the investigation right after a former NHTSA employee, Christopher Santucci, took a job with Toyota
The lawsuit alleges that the new Toyota employee negotiated a deal with his former coworkers at NHTSA to limit the investigation of unintended acceleration claims to instances of one second or less. Santucci said in a deposition that the NHTSA investigation involved 2002 and 2003 Toyota Camry, Solaras and Lexus ES300 models. NHTSA had reportedly received 139 complaints in the 2004 investigation, but found no defects..
Now that Toyota has officially recalled millions of vehicles, the question remains whether these older models will eventually be recalled as well. The short answer is that we have no idea, but former NHTSA head Joan Claybrook feels that the government safety agency should have taken unintended acceleration claims more seriously in the past.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Same here, but to be honest, I haven't had to deal with one in about 15 years. But we're also car guys here, and probably more knowledgeable about what to do than most of the masses out there. Just for kicks, ask a couple people that aren't "car people" what they'd do if their car suddenly accelerated for seemingly no reason, and see how they respond. I've tried it and gotten a few responses like "ummmmm...." and "I don't know", etc.
I wonder what the California State Trooper would have said if you'd asked him that question a day before his tragic wreck....
Remember Sean Kane? He's still birddogging this issue:
""In the past, Toyota has actually done technical bulletins to reflash the algorithms in their control units to prevent unintended acceleration incidents," he said."
Expect more Toyota recalls: safety firm (CBC News)
WRONG, as you described, it is a driving/driver issue, and a driver error. If the driver could have taken action(s) to stop an incident or tragic situation from happening, and doesn't do so for some reason, or fails to do so, then that is on them. It is driver failure to not do the right thing. If you got a license then you should know how to operate a vehicle, and that includes when something goes wrong, such as a stuck accelerator. Didn't anyone else remember their traffic safety course in high school?
Panic is not an excuse for failure. Panic may have cause a driver to be incompetent and negligent, but it doesnt excuse it. You have a duty to MITIGATE damages when something goes wrong, and by not putting it in neutral or turning off the ignition when the accelerator gets stuck (or unsticking it manually), then you are failing to meet your duty to mitigate the damages, and you will not be due any compensation for that failure.
Same if you bought a Toyota. If you feel you can't drive it even though it's given you no problems thus far, then that's on you. Lighting could strike you tomorrow too so you better not go outside.
In addition, anybody now in a Government Motors vehicle that wants to be done with a company living off the public dole might qualify for another $1000 rebate. I can see a lot of 'red-staters' and 'tea baggers' stepping up to take advantage of this opportunity.
That's what I've been saying all along.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-supplier-sticky-gas-pedals-problem/story?id- - =9689799
"But even the company's own supplier, Indiana-based CTS, says Toyota is far from done in ending the problem of runaway cars -- and that Toyota told it none of the serious accidents or deaths linked to runaway cars was caused by "sticky" gas pedals.
"Whether or not sticking gas pedals are the cause of random acceleration in Toyotas, there are many reports of runaway Toyotas that are not on the list of models recalled by the company to replace the pedals. "
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hmmm, bad business decision by the rental car companies? I think not.
Let's see:
Toyota issues recall and stops manufacture of defective vehicles due to sticky accelerator pedals.
Hertz continues to rent out said vehicles after knowing of their defect.
Customer rents defective vehicle.
Vehicle's accelerator pedal sticks causing major accident killing 6 people.
Now you tell me, who do you think will get sued?
No rental car company in their right mind will rent out a vehicle with an outstanding safety recall against it. There is too much liability.
Yeah I think Toyota will certainly do somethin to "win back" the faithful. No one goes out and buys a Toyota for its styling. Other than reliability, there is no compelling reason to buy a Toyota, so with that slightly tarnished, I expect some "welcoming back" on their end.
In addition, anybody now in a Government Motors vehicle that wants to be done with a company living off the public dole might qualify for another $1000 rebate. I can see a lot of 'red-staters' and 'tea baggers' stepping up to take advantage of this opportunity.
I believe those guys that just announced a profit today are going to have a similar deal, and they aren't owned by you and I (well, unless you have stock, which has gone from $1 to $12...). And that other H company that is eating everyone's lunch (got some seat time in a Genesis coupe this weekend, 4 cylinder turbo 6 speed manual RWD $22k, wow) might pick up a few sales.
From a reliability standpoint, the playing field is pretty level. From an innovation/feature content standpoint, there are other companies that offer more.
Toyota isn't stupid. Secretive and obnoxious maybe, but this will be a good wake up call for them, they will heal and grow going forward.
Based on information about knowing about this problem since 2004 and how they've handled information, I think "deceptive" needs to in your list of adjectives.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Tylenol problem was someone contaminating containers of Tyler. It was not the company manufacturing defective Tylenol nor was Miles Labs misleading about what was being learned for a long period of time as the first people died from cyanide poisoning, which is not a nice way to die.
Judging by the TV publicity, this won't be immediately forgotten. If Toyota had acted on finding and fixing the causes early on (2007 perhaps) then the reporters and industry analysts might be forgiving when fixes are in place. As further info comes out about how this has been spun by the company to minimize the impact, The reporters have found blood on someone who tried to mislead them.
I think the video of security people wearing face masks as if the US reporters were diseased in Japan ordering the ABC cameras off Toyota headquarters property is probably the one defining video.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At first I bought into the CTS vs Denso throttles theory, but if CTS can redesign it in a few days and claim the problem is solved, it can't have been much of a fix, and I would expect the problems to continue.
Is the software faulty in these cars? Can Toyota make the whole problem go away by building every new car (and retrofitting millions and millions of cars sold in the last five years) with a brake fail-safe system that kills the throttle at the first hint of brake application? If they did that, it might solve the problem even though the real defect were never discovered at all.
I guess I just don't understand how a company with an engineering department as MASSIVE as Toyota's can't figure out where the problem really lies here....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Oh, and as for
the ones that have been here quite some time as Toyota owners are not likely to bail.....
I think I have told you once or twice before that this 25-year Toyota owner (and 10-year Edmunds poster) won't be buying Toyotas in the future, but of course that's not because I'm scared of them, it's just because I think they kinda suck now and certainly aren't the value they once were....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As I said this will certainly have an effect in the public's eye. But who is this nebulous 'public'? Well it's made up of UAW workers, Honda Odyssey and Civic si fans, GM'ers that wish the 60s and 70s never ended, F150 die hards in Texas, and various other groups who would rather be eaten by pirhannas than set foot in a Toyota store. Yes these groups will definitely have their anti-feelings reconfimed and set in stone. This is probably a good one third of the population of vehicle buyers. :surprise:
Then there are the fence-sitters. Another 30% to 50%. They don't hate Toyota but they aren't going to give it a try for a while and that's understandable.
Then there are the loyal owners that have had no issues and are pleased with their vehicles. It's a significant percentage of the 30 to 40 million who now own and drive Toyota's daily. Being human and self-centered at the core they look out for themselves first and if they're satisfied with their experience then why should they switch? Hey a bunch of people bought Toyotas today all over the country; Camrys, Corollas, RAVs, Highlanders and Prius'.
The world did not end. Life goes on, it's the same - only different.
Remember Cash for Clunkers? There were news stories and political debates about it for weeks on end, but when the program was actually implemented, huge numbers of people seemed to come out of the woodwork wanting to know what it was about. I saw a post just a week or so ago from someone wondering if they should clunk out a problem vehicle.
If Toyota moves quickly, fesses up, and fixes the problems, then it will hurt them big time for a year or two but their massive halt of amnufacturing, and millions of fixes, will preserve their reputation over the longer haul.
If Toyota doesn't move quickly, or if it comes out that they have been deceptive or hiding things for years (not what is said in this forum, but real evidence that is well understood and publicized), then it will really hurt Toyota for an awfully long time.
Although Toy's situation looks really bad right now, compare that to Ford's hiding of the Pinto problems or GM's engine mount problems or Ford's tranny and engine block problems on the Windstall, etc. Consumers don't punish companies so much for having problems, they punish companies for not fixing problems or denying those problems exist. Witness Honda's fessing up to their transmission problems and replacing many trannys - and their reputation is pretty much intact (although perhaps not by some in these forums).
Judging by only that, although we know it's true we don't know what's gonna happen with this UA issue, Toyota should make choices that will remedy this current problem. The recall is already underway and the production lines are stopped on what, 8 Toyota rigs right now? And sales are halted on those rigs as well. Whoa, horseys.
So, though we can't see clearly the future, judging solely on how apt the U.S. carbuyers view Fo-Mo-Co and are purchasing Ford's and/or praising Ford for it's new stable it's producing and for it's 2009 total year profit, even with some very real historical engineering goof-ups, I would venture a guess that the public will forgive and mostly forget Toyota's current troubles.
This will take a while. I'm in kdh's fencesitter category regarding Toyota. I've wanted two Toyota's in my life. A 2006 Scion xA and a 2005 Scion tC RS 1.0. Didn't get either one of them. Don't hate Toyota but have nothing invested in them and don't need them around to choose from, to be totally honest. Too many choices I like better than Toyota to buy from.
But most of us carnuts here on Edmund's have been following the story of the SD CHP off-duty cop and his family in their rental Lexus sedan, their horrible demise. Once that story broke and we started chatting about it in here I was glued to it like Gary Payton on Michael Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals. Sure Michael broke free occasionally, but hey, we're talkin' about MJ here. MJ breaks free on everybody, even great defenders like GP. I see Toyota as too huge to be tipped over by this.
Though they've got a tough road to hoe here, also. Lots of work ahead. Incredibly important story here, public relations 101 unfolding right before our very eyes. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The difference between Tylenol and cyanide is that the potassium cyanide was not put into the pills by Miles Labs, if I recall the manufacturer at the time correctly.
Miles Labs didn't try to coverup the presence of cyanide by saying that people died because they ate the cotton ball that was inside the cap. Miles Labs didn't employ a person who had been in the Food and Drug Administration and use his contacts to knowledge to construct how the deaths and illnesses were reported to the FDA so that the severity of the problem was occluded. Miles Labs didn't keep producing and selling the pills with their defective content for years after initially noting the problem of its causing illness.
With Ford, IIRC the Ford MOCO wanted the low air pressures on the rear to keep the Explorer from having enough grip to cause a rollover in the event of a sideways skid. Then people allowed pressures to drop lower than even recommended causing the tires to decompose under certain road use conditions. FoMoCo was able to deflect some blame to Firestone, but it actually went back to the high center of gravity in the Explorer and Ford's attempt to bandaide the problem rather than improve the product. Because Ford was able to deflect part of the blame, but sales of Explorers were slow after that.
The acceleration problems have gone on for a long time known to people interested in cars such as Edmunds. But notice the reaction when it was on ABC, NBC, CBS with some investigative reporting explaining what really was occurring. Notice people having heard those reports refusing to drive their car.
Over a nation of Toyota users forum, one person theorized that there's more than mats and sticking accelerator electronics. That person theorized that the opportunity to reflash the computer to include brake-to-idle for engine speed would allow reflashing other "flaws" in the programming without public exposure.
Hopefully Toyota won't have to spend too long under the cloud if they can come clean about all that they know about the problem
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That was 30+ years ago. and look at the percentage of the market Ford owns now compared to the 70s. I would say that statement would be an good reason to dump your Toyota stock before it does what Fords did over the past 30 years. I know Ford stock has gone up alot in the past 6 months but that is only because it was down to $1.50 a share. I believe Toyota is done as the heavy weight champion. It will be interesting how Toyota will handle this steep decline that they have been in for the last few years. I can not understand how Toyota made the same mistakes as the D-3 have made in years past. I thought they were better than that