Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    UAW at work?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    That's why the Asians prevail. Affordable, reliable transportation. Seems like their formula has destroyed GM, F and C....along with the economic crisis, which pulled the trigger to put them out of their misery!

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I think these forums on Edmunds have been discussing the bankruptcy of the Big 3 since 2001. It's a constant topic year after year.

    The PRO Big 3 here have said for years GM will never go bankrupt.

    The Anti-Big 3 here have said for years bankruptcy is inevitable.

    I hate to say I told you so, but.... :P
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I hate to say I told you so, but....it took a worldwide financial meltdown and 100's of thousands of houses being foreclosed to bring them to it. :(
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If GM had filed before they got so deep in debt they may have had a chance to survive. It looks less likely with every passing day.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Are you implying the Big 3's looming doom are due more to the weak economy and housing forclosures rather than:

    1) Poor quality, reliability, and customer service for decades.
    2) Overpricing and Overbuilding their undesireable products.
    3) Poor engineering and design no one wants to buy.
    4) Paying UAW workers $70+/hour after benefits.
    5) Paying UAW workers to not work.
    6) Paying for nice Lear Jets rather than paying for quality parts in the vehicles they sell.
    7) Putting the money into bonuses and paychecks rather than for quality fit and finish and build quality in the vehiclesx they sell.
    8) Not stepping up to the plate to honor warranties for known issues, even after the warranty period.

    P.S. Without asking for it, I got an email from Sony the other day that stated that my SXRD model year 2006 50" television just had the optical block warranty extended to June 30, 2010 REGARDLESS of the purchase date.

    Chrysler would NEVER in a milllion years do something like that.

    I've heard Honda did something similar with their V6 equipped vehicles that had less than durable auto trannies and extended 100K warranties to them.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sony isn't doing so hot either. They really haven't done much since the Trinitron days, except for the Playstation pop.

    Honda had tranny problems with Odysseys that were addressed as a part of a class action suit and there's talk of a new one. Honda has been proactive with fixing busted CR-V AC compressors out of warranty.

    Chrysler issued an EXTENDED WARRANTY ON ALL 1997-2000 CARAVANS/GRAND CARAVANS for all AC compressor repairs (emphasis from the link). They were skinny on the VINs covered but they covered some.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If they were the world class industry leaders that they should have been, they would have weathered the storm far easier. Their current condition forces some form of bankruptcy protection now.

    I am hoping in 5 years their products will lead the world again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Sony is the GM of Electronics, in case you haven't considered. Way overpriced and not leading in any technology. I keep laughing when a huge company thinks it can survive on name only and blind customer loyalty.

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Chrysler must be VERY SKINNY on VIN's they grant extended warranties to because none of the 3 Dodge Dealers I visited in CA offerred to pony up for my AC compressor, my head gaskets, my leaking gas tank, my faulty parking break, my faulty auto transmission, the faulty serpentine belt, the faulty batteries, the faulty starter cables and wires, the faulty structural frame and body, nor any of the other numerous repairs I paid for at Dodge dealers thinking that someone taking it to the dealer would lessen the amount of repair trips required because theyd' somehow catch and/or predict the next part about to receive imminent failure.

    It didn't work, that car was in the shop every 3 to 4 months. I received absolutely NO out of warranty assistance, and the A/C literally gave out within 100 miles or 1 month of the 3 year 36K warranty expiring.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not all CR-V owners have been paid in full or partially for out of warranty AC compressor repairs either. But some, like some Chrysler customers, have been taken care of. So you can't simply say "never."

    Chrysler has taken similar actions with minivan clocksprings. And some other stuff, but perhaps as part of a settlement of class action suits.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Sony is not the GM of electronics. Sony has always consistently been the best TV and Monitor maker bar none! They have never failed to remain in the lead on reliability, durability, and picture quality on their TV's and Monitors, and flat screens. Now... their other electronics outside of that..... yes... that is GM-like. But monitors and TV's are Sony's Acura.....oh wait, GM doesn't have an Acura (Cadillac closest thing).

    Sony still made the best big screens with SXRD technology, and they make some of the best LCD flatscreens, leading the way with new technologies like the new 11" super flat organic gizmo TV thing. :)

    Overpriced.... hardly... I've heard of so many issues with other TV brands that I can understand while people will buy extended warranties on electronics even though CR tells you to never do so. Having had Sony TV's in our family almost my whole life, I understand what durability and quality are, starting with an 87 Trinitron that still works, and a '94 Trinitron that still works almost like new!

    Extended warranties woudl have been a waste of money on those sets. On the more recent big screen phenomenon, yes, reliability has gone down with the new HDTV tech, but I convinced Sony to pay for the parts to fix my 2 year old set 1 year after warranty. I paid labor (fair deal; though they would have been smarter to just pay for the whole thing (now I own a 26" Sharp TV in addition to my 50" Sony). So they opened the door to me considering other brands, but they still retained my business. Had they paid the whole shabang, I'd of never bought any other brand (they met me halfway).

    Now Sony is one company that can blame the economy for their recent poor performance. I don't think an electronic company that is doing well right now even exists due to the depression/recession. However, Sony is hit even harder because they really are the Acura/Lexus/Audi/BMW of TV's, so now people are buying the Honda's, Toyotas, VW, and MIni's instead Dell, Vizio, LG of TV's would be the more lowly brands).
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    That's exactly what we are saying. I'm not saying that the issues you bring up are meritless, as they do have plenty of merit, but what GM has been able to do is restructure their debt as needed, using the credit to pay for things while saving their cash. Now we are in a "credit freeze" and none of the banks are lending the money. So, they must burn through their cash, and now push has come to shove.

    BTW the employees DON'T make $70/hr That's a FALLACY!!! Their loaded rate is compareable to others in the industry. It is the legacy costs of the retirees that are costing them a total of about $70 per man hr. The new contract is supposed to rectify this added cost, but with bankruptcy hanging heavy, everything is in flux now.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "..... lead on reliability, durability, and picture quality on their TV's and Monitors, and flat screens."

    HAAAA!!! Tell that to my parents, whose Sony TV was always dark (They've had it 2.5 yrs). If not for the extended warranty, it would've cost $1200 for a new projector.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Back to cars, Chrysler to Close Manufacturing Plants for a Month Starting Friday.

    Pretty soon we'll have nothing new to talk about but TVs. :blush:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    BTW the employees DON'T make $70/hr That's a FALLACY!!!

    I agree that todays UAW worker is paying for retirees health care. Quite similar to current SS and Medicare payments taken from the working man's pocket. It can be blamed on the UAW that was part of that overly ambitious health care program. When those contracts were concocted there was over a million employees in the UAW. Now there is less than 1/2 million working members. And a lot more retirees than contributors. That means more per hour has to be paid to cover the costs. Those are costs that the Imports had enough sense to avoid. Blame it on whomever you like. It is still part of the hourly cost of doing business. For every dollar more the B3 put into labor the Imports can increase quality in content while maintaining equal pricing.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Maybe if Chrysler equipped their vehicles with SONY Monitors/TV's, Sony Blu-Ray DVD players, Polk Audio speakers, and a Harmon Kardon or Denon amp, their sales would go through the roof! :P ;)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    >Vizio

    Who makes Vizio?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VIZIO quickly skyrocketed to the top by becoming the #1 selling brand of flat panel HDTV’s in North America and became the first American brand in over a decade to lead major categories in 2007 U.S. TV sales. VIZIO has sold more than 5-Million flat panel televisions in the U.S. alone.

    My guess is the products are made in China. However the profits stay in the USA. That is a plus. Looking at them side by side with a Sony, you would not buy Vizio unless money was the only issue. They are the entry level flat screen for the masses.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    What I don't understand is why the healthcare payments aren't made out of the pension fund, which is overfunded by some $20 billion.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Maybe if the Germans had treated them as the equals they claimed them to be when they "merged" instead of the red-headed [non-permissible content removed] child, they'd be better off too.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    OW:
    Don't know much about SUVs - never owned one.. I have to buy 4 door Midsizers to comply with my company's auto reimbursement plan. When I was shopping for a replacement vehicle in May, the Honda and Toyota dealers here wanted about $30K ( total out of pocket including financing) to fix me up with a vehicle comparably equipped to the Saturn Aura I bought for $20, 005 (Total out of Pocket including financing). Hyundai could basically match the price I got on the Saturn, but, were $2K lower on the trade allowance, and couldn't match the financing package.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yep, the Sony, Sharp,LG and even the Westinghouse look better than Visio, as a whole. They are just cheaper to buy, though not that much cheaper. If one is real picky, I would say the special edition Sharp Aqua or whatever it is called, is the absolute best overall, except for sound, and you can add surround sound.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Almost forgot - some of y'all may enjoy this one:

    kyfdx, "Home Theater" #1, 16 Dec 2008 11:55 am
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    oldchem, Aura is one of the better cars GM makes IMHO. I'm not crazy about the looks but it performs above average from what the rags testers say. You got an unbelievable price and I wish you the best of luck with the car. The only cars from GM I would even consider are Aura, Malibu, G8 or CTS.


    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The only cars from GM I would even consider are Aura, Malibu, G8 or CTS.

    Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    The only cars from GM I would even consider are Aura, Malibu, G8 or CTS.

    For the most part, that would probably be my top picks as well, especially the G8. I probably wouldn't consider a CTS...not any fault of the car, but it's just too small inside for my tastes.

    I know I'm gonna get my chops busted by everyone but Lemko for saying this, but I'd still consider a Lucerne or DTS! :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The only vehicle GM builds today I would consider is the Corvette. Still the best sports car for the money ever built. Though I prefer Porsche overall.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The Lucerne and DTS are perfectly fine cars, but they aren't likely to draw many customers from the foreign marques, and that is what GM needs to survive. Appealing to loyal GM buyers, whose numbers dwindle every year, is not the path to long-term success.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    The only cars from GM I would even consider are Aura, Malibu, G8 or CTS.

    I understand this car was designed for the aged and aging.
    image
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Andre - the Lucerne and DTS are perfectly fine if that's where one's tastes run. I've said it before but if you have lemko tastes for design and creature comforts his car choices are perfectly logical. You could do loads worse.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, as gagrice says, I want this one also but for this there is no consideration. It's a done deal when cash is at hand!!!

    This is my color!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Lucerne and the DTS are the ONLY two cars on my new car shopping list. There would be others but I can find some unforgivable fault with them:

    Buick LaCrosse - good for my diminutive girlfriend, bad for my size. I always tell my girlfriend the Lucerne is my version of her car.

    Cadillac CTS - beautiful, but too small.

    Cadillac STS - too small and too expensive. Would've loved one if it kept the dimensions of my 2002 model.

    Chevrolet Impala - nice, but a bit too plebian for my tastes.

    Chevrolet Malibu - see Impala.

    Chrysler 300-C SRT8 - nice car, lousy interior.

    Dodge Charger SRT8 - see Chrysler 300.

    Mercury Grand Marquis LS - exactly the kind of car that would've appealed to me 10-15 years ago - now hopelessly obsolete.

    Pontiac G8 - great car, but Pontiac doesn't fit my image.

    I'm extremely happy with my DTS! I would like to get a Lucerne Super if my '88 Park Avenue ever dies. No sign of that so far! When Better Cars are Built, Buick Will Build Them!!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nothing personal about your cables, Andre - just trying to make the discussion hit "critical" mass. :)

    andres3, "Home Theater" #6, 18 Dec 2008 12:52 pm
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I don't even know what Pontiac's Image would be, other than maybe cheap?

    Is it "driving excitement", or is the image for soccer moms with the Aztec?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Pontiac and Oldsmobile were the brands you really wanted when you bought that Chevy, back when I was a kid. As you worked up the wage ladder you could afford that Pontiac Bonneville. Then as you got older those making the big bucks bought a Cadillac. When you got real old and decrepit it was BUICK with a Dynaflop transmission. Now they are all the same with different sheet metal. Nothing special about any of them. That includes the Japanese cars.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Pontiac's image these days - is Rental car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I've had three Pontiacs now, a '69 Bonneville 4-door hardtop, a '67 Catalina convertible, and a '76 Grand LeMans coupe. I still have the last two. For their time, I think the cars represent a clear step up from a Chevy. Especially the Catalina and Bonneville. Back in those days, when you got a Pontiac, you got the big V-8 standard! The Catalina came with a 290 hp 400-2bbl (mine was converted to a 4-bbl, probably more like 325-330 hp). In contrast, a Chevy would've just come with a straight six standard! To get up to the Catalina's level, you'd have to bypass the 283 (or was it 307 by this time) and the 327, and go on up to a 396. The Bonneville had a 428-4bbl with 360 hp standard! Alas, there was a credit option for a 400-4bbl, and that's what mine was stuck with. Still, that sucker would move out...scary, considering how massive it was. In those days, Pontiacs seemed to have nicer interiors too, and something about the styling just told you that you were getting a more upscale car than a Chevy...even if it really didn't cost that much more.

    With my '76 LeMans, the differences aren't quite as vast. That year, if you bought a Chevelle Malibu, the base engine was a 250-6. Ditto the LeMans. Now the Grand LeMans, which I have, had a 400 V-8 standard. But a 350 was a credit option, and damn if I didn't pick one with the credit option! :mad: I must have a knack for that! Still, I like the fact that by that time, they still tried to make the LeMans look sporty, whereas the Malibu, with its stacked headlights and pretentious grille, was going for sort of a faux luxury look. Which was in vogue back then. That may explain why the LeMans was actually the loser of GM's A-body bunch by that time. Still, something about the interior just seems a step up from a Chevelle Malibu. Part of it may be that the Grand LeMans used the same dash as the Grand Prix, which was a pretty nice display. The regular LeMans wasn't quite as nice...but still a bit upscale from a base Chevelle Malibu, I guess.

    That's one thing I kinda miss, how back then, if you got a Pontiac, Olds, or Buick, you really felt like you were getting a nicer car. Heck, even in the '80's I saw a difference. I had an '86 Monte Carlo and a '82 Cutlass Supreme coupe. Both of them were base models, but the Cutlass still seemed like a step up.

    Today though, there's really not much left of Pontiac. And everything's so interchangeable that it doesn't really matter. The only Pontiac that excites me anymore is the G8. But it has sort of a generic look to it, kinda like Mr. Potatohead, where you could change a few details and pass it off as something else. Get rid of the twin nostrills and give it a bit more of an oval grille or waterfall, and you have a Buick Gran Sport. Or give it a horizontal grille with a body color or chrome piece that bisects it about half way up, and voila...Impala Super Sport. Wait, we already have one of those...but it still wouldn't be hard to change a few minor things and pass it off as a Chevy.

    I have to admit though...a few years ago, a friend of mine wanted a new small-ish SUV. He liked the Xterra and the Equinox. I tried to steer him towards the Pontiac Torrent, so I guess there's still a bit of Pontiac in my blood. I thought the Torrent, while just a quick badge-job, looked nicer than the 'Nox. But my friend didn't like it. Moot point in the end though, because he went with the Xterra. And so far, it's been a great little truck. It's a bit thirsty for its size, but it's quick. The only real problem he had with it so far was dealer-inflicted. It was leaking oil. But it turned out the dealership, who changed it last, just didn't tighten the drain plug all the way. A minor fix, but pretty damn scary when you think of the consequences! :surprise:
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The step up model is all murky to me. I don't feel any better in a G6 than I do in a Malibu, although both are pretty decent cars. I just feel old in a Buick, and cheated in a Cadillac, and I'm very conflicted about myself in a Saturn, not sure what I am, but knowing I'm in a chick's car. I think time has passed the GM model by, and that's why they need to come down to 2 or 3 model lines at the most and jettison the rest.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    The only 3 Pontiacs worth a look are the G8, Solstice and maybe the G6.

    Pontiac and Buick could merge with Saturn. Pontiac would have 2-3 sporty cars like the G8, Buick could have 3 nice cars (new LaCrosse, new Regal and Enclave) and Saturn has the economy cars (Astra, Vue and Aura). That would save all three brands and expand the distribution of the 3 weaker brands.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Not a bad scenerio.......wish Waggoner would consider it. Complicated though, I know.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There's somebody in my neighborhood who bought a new G8 and the car captures my attention every time I see it. I don't think there's a Pontiac that captured my attention like that since the truly awesome mid-60s models. Then, Pontiac truly was a clear step up from a Chevrolet. I think Pontiac started losing its way in 1968. The 1968 Grand Prix was a big fat turkey:

    image

    image
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Did a last minute rental with Enterprise (2 hours in advance). Signed up for a premium car (Maxima/Avalon). When I got there guy tells me you have a choice between a 2009 Explorer or DTS at no extra charge. I said choice between a DTS and a Exploder? For the same price? No brainer. Give me the DTS.

    Told the wife when she's ready to trade the Denali to be sure to look at this car. She says Cadillac? Think more Escalade. :sick:
  • atb2atb2 Member Posts: 30
    While I have not been in the new CRV, I did rent an Equinox for two weeks in Hawaii. That is a rattle trap POC. I usually rent Trailblazers or Explorers. Alamo did not have my Trailblazer when I arrived and gave me an Equinox. I will not settle for that again. Alamo gave me an HHR in Alaska to drive. That is not much of a vehicle either.

    I totally agree. I've driven, (not owned, thank God) both of these mentioned. No wonder GM is on the skids. Not sure what they were thinking when these bombs were allowed to get past the drawing board... Alot of the Chrysler offerings are equally as bad, if not worse -- inexcusable IMHO.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    OW:

    Al I can say is - The dealer must have been really hungry that weekend I bought the car. The price of the new car was set - I get the supplier price through my employer less any rebates GM is running. GM had 0% financing available, and, I jumped on that. The only thing that was negotiable was the trade. I told the salesguy I had to have $7K for the Chrysler, or, I was walking out, and, I meant it. They took the deal after about a 15 minute debate. I really like the car - to me It drives a lot like a Passat or an Audi.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I have fond memories of going 160 MPH on I-75 through Cincinnati in the wee hours of the morning in a friend's new 427 - 435HP 'Vette convertable with the factory side pipes. I think it was a 66 or 67 model. What a beast that thing was!

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I really liked the 1960 Pontiac Bonneville. Too rich for my blood. A rich kid at school got one in his senior year. It was about the fastest car at school.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I have fond memories of going 160 MPH on I-75 through Cincinnati in the wee hours of the morning in a friend's new 427 - 435HP 'Vette convertible with the factory side pipes.

    Unbelievable! Those, indeed, were the days...not a bailout in sight! If only GM would have developed their top sellers all along...the 'Vette is the sole winner and the truly original icon.

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I think the grille on that '68 Grand Prix is pretty attractive. Probably the nicest thing on the car! Something about the roofline just looks awkward, too, like it was grafted from an intermediate. The taillights look sort of like a '70 or so Tempest, and it has that pinched look like a late 60's Buick Special.

    It's hard to believe that thing's practically the same car as my '67 Catalina.
    image

    Now I'll confess, my Catalina's a porker itself. Heck, I even remember back when I was married, we had walked into the repair shop to pick up one of the cars. They had a calendar hanging on the wall, and it had a pic of a '63 Catalina convertible. The wifey looked at it and said something along the lines of "why is ours so much fatter than that?". Ahem. Did I mention we're no longer together? :P Still, even with all that bulk, I think Pontiac managed to make the car look clean and sleek, and downright sporty for such a big beast. The '67 Grand Prix was especially cool, with its hidden headlights down in the grille, and turn signals mounted where the upper headlights are on the regular cars. '67 was also the only year they offered a convertible. Sort of a shame, because I think losing that awkward roof would do a world of good for that '68 Grand Prix. Ditching the skirts would be an improvement, too.
  • wesleygwesleyg Member Posts: 164
    Just signed the papers yesterday on a G8 GT, currently driving an 06 Impala SS which steps out pretty good, but the G8 brought back the memories of my big block 60's Chevies, 396 and 427 Impalas and Caprices, and a '69 427 Vette. This is my 38th new GM, maybe my last, just sick about where this GM thing is going.

    The GT puts out 361 horse net, which is more than my old 427 Vette which was 425 horse Gross, and torque of 385 pounds net which far surpasses again the old gross of the 427.
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