The MKS is a lucerne?. Wierd camparo IMO. The MKS is beautiful inside, Lexus ES 350 quality and very modern looking. The Lucerne is not the same quality and appeals to 66 year old men buying their 7th Buick.
Of course they are the same market. Nothing weird about that at all. They are practically the same size, same FWD layout, and stylistically, they are not far apart. The Lucerne has slightly better proportions (and longer wheelbase and more rear seat legroom), but the MKS has a far better 6 cylinder, and a 6 speed transmission (the Lucerne makes do with a 4 speed).
The Lucerne has a nicely trimmed interior, is very quiet, and unlike the MKS, offers a V8. The MKS, however, offers AWD and soon Ecoboost. As for appealing to 66 year old men, of course Buicks and Lincolns appeal to old guys. But a few younger people cross-shopping the Lucerne have also found value and luxury there. Neither one is going to appeal much to the BMW/Mercedes crowd. Or Acura buyers either.
I'm a 29-year old who seriously test drove a Lucerne, and while there are some similarities to the MKS, the interior lets you know it is not a car for young people. My wife and I liked the exterior, and I liked the available V8, but the interior reveals it as an old-man's car. I hate stereotyping it as that, but that's what we thought.
We were at the auto show in DC a few months later and were talking with the woman at the Enclave display, and she mentioned that the interior of the Lucerne is kept that way because of the demands of the demographic that buys it.
On the other hand, my wife saw a commercial for the MKS (the rocket ship one), and with out knowing what it was said it looked cool.
Please Allen Mullaly and Ford, sweat the details and the American public will respond.
I think he's trying very hard to do that. The interiors have improved 1000% since Mulally took over - the leather is so much better, the other materials the same, and the design is beautiful. Lots of money has gone into the cabins. The quality is Lexus like in there now, and I prefer their looks in many cases to my Lexus that I drive. The prop rod remains an issue on some models, and I just hate it. It won't stop me from buying one, but will piss me off everytime I raise the hood for anything. It's just not classy.....
Otherwise though, I see tremendous progress with the cars Ford is putting out since Billy went back under the ether and Alan took over.
The interior is also kept that way because GM doesn't have the money to update it at the moment. The Lacrosse is being revamped first. That said, the Lucerne Super interior is pretty damn nice. The exterior styling of the Lucerne is nice, quite tasteful. Of course the MKS received even greater attention to the interior, and it definitely has more bells and whistles than the Lucerne. Lucerne offers a lot of quiet luxury but at a lower price, so you won't some of the MKS features like cooled seats. However, it does offer blind spot alert, lane departure warning, a leather-topped dash, heated steering wheel, rear parking assist and other toys expected on a better car. When the new Lacrosse is released, they will have to do something to upgrade the Lucerne, or soon their audience will only be dead people.
The Ecoboost will really distinguish the MKS. I would have considered it if it weren't so tall with those too long overhangs. Heck, if the MKZ had truly distinctive styling, stability control and a better interior, that might have been my car. The 2010 will get close, but unfortunately, they could not afford to change the Fusion body with Lincoln accents look.
I don't know. I'm 35 and really like the MKS, the Lucerene never even crossed my mind and if that is the buyers Lincoln gets instead of who they are trying to get than just kill the brand off. The MKS guage cluster is too plain though. Caddy CTS blows it away,
I have 10 unsold MKS's on my lot. Out of a total of total of 15. Three of the 5 that were sold in the last month were to Towncar owners. One of the remaining 2 was sold to a Deville owner and the other to a Catera owner. All of these buyers were over 60 yrs of age. The Towncar is still with us and still sells well to those that are trading theirs in. The majority of these drivers just don't care for the MKS. Where are the throngs of young Lexus, Infiniti and CTS owners just itching to get behind the wheel of the MKS? Didn't Lincoln target this car to those that want a sporty machine to motor in? I guess Lincoln's marketing strategy is to nab those DTS owners who want a fwd auto when they find out that the new DTS is rwd. And wait about 6 months the discount from sticker for this car will be much higher. I am going to be the capitalist pig and let the host of this blog know that if it were not for those as I, Edmonds would find its profit margin greatly diminished. Now I will wait for the answers to these questions.
I posted earlier about the prop rod on the MKS without having seen it for myself. I'll make a point to find out this weekend if it's a rod or gas struts on Lincoln's flagship, Regarding comparing the MKS (and CTS) to Lexus and other import competitors, I'm likely in the minority. I'm looking for a reason to buy American. I understand, appreciate and admire the technology, workmanship and reputation that accompany Lexus, Mercedes, BMW and Infinity, as well as Audi to a lesser extent. However, I find that most of these marques have their downfalls and after careful financial analysis of up-front costs, maintenance and repair and resale, a Lincoln or Cadillac doesn't come off so bad. Hopefully I'm investing in the domestic industry and encouraging them to invest in their product. I think it's interesting that if anything, Lexus has reduced it's product content and value with the ES 350 to the point that the Lincoln and Cadillac can easily compete. At the upper pricing segments, the domestics don't even try and I think that's OK. That market is beginning to stagnate and the lease deals that made a S550 or 750iL affordable have dried up. I'll take another look at the MKS and hope to post next weekend that I got a great deal on a very enjoyable and reliable car that won't cost me a fortune to run and will provide me a good ownership experience. I'll let you know how it turns out....
Well Speculator it's obvious that if if things continue that way for the MKS across the nation it will be a massive failure and you've answered your own question.
You are in the minority at least on the coasts you are. People in NY look for reasons not to buy American. I read that only 1-10 new passenger cars (non suv) sold on L Island in either 2006 or 2007 was a domestic nameplate. People would rather buy Korean that American these days. Hopefully the MKS is a hit and attracts the right buyers for Lincoln. If it is all 65 year olds who order the Sandstone or White Chocolate color with brown pinstripes and a Landeu top then it is doomed.
I'll make a point to find out this weekend if it's a rod or gas struts on Lincoln's flagship
Not sure where this issue began but I assure you it has struts for both the hood and trunk - just like the Taurus and Sable. The MKZ has the cheap-assed prop-rod - at least for now.
That's good to hear. But no Lincoln should ever have had a prop rod since 1949. It may not matter to some buyers, but it tells me where Lincoln thinks their product fits in - among the Hyundais, on the low end. Glad to see they are fixing this error/oversight.
You are 100% right, they cut costs due to legacy costs. They need to work on fixing that situation, though, because they are not the only game in town.
If they want to cut corners some place, why cut cut some of those upper management bonuses and compensation, especially when the firm suffers a fiscal year loss?
You should not have to walk in expecting a lower value product. Our (as in American) products used to be the best because we made them that way. We can do that again, and I don't know if the top brass - or unions - at Ford really understand what painful actions need to be done.
Sound System - perhaps Lincoln could have offered a BOSE, Harmon Kardon, or Mark Levinson sound system that was THX certified? For all we know it could be that Audiophile system from the Taurus/Sable with more speakers and woofers.
It should be that good sound system is compatible with your musical preference, and not the other way around. When spending this much on a car, that is the type of experience I am looking for. This is offered in Cadillac, Mercedes, and Lexus choices.
I know Lincoln can fight back. What's really sad is that this car makes such a good first impression, I really want to like it more.
What I meant was if you're looking for monster bass then the system isn't tuned for that - it's tuned for balance and accuracy. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's inferior. The THX system has won many industry awards for sound quality.
What I meant was if you're looking for monster bass then the system isn't tuned for that - it's tuned for balance and accuracy. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's inferior. The THX system has won many industry awards for sound quality. OK, come clean. This is about the 900th post from you defending the MKS...did you design it??? If so, good job.
I saw the MKS on the road for the first time today. It was black. I think it looks good and I could tell right away it was the MKS. Too bad for Lincoln the Driver appeared to be 60 years old.
Only the things that need defending. When reviewers and owners alike praise the THX audio system then I have to conclude that it's high quality and if someone doesn't like it then it's just personal preference.
I don't like mis-information. If someone says they don't like something then fine, but don't make personal preferences into objective facts.
For the record I think it's front heavy and not balanced therefore it doesn't handle as well as it could (although I don't see that as a fatal flaw), the gauges are cheap and so is the black center stack. The trunk opening isn't quite as wide as it could be. Other than that, I think they nailed it.
For the record I think it's front heavy and not balanced therefore it doesn't handle as well as it could (although I don't see that as a fatal flaw), the gauges are cheap and so is the black center stack. The trunk opening isn't quite as wide as it could be. Other than that, I think they nailed
The problem is the cars it competes against do not have those flaws. My friend drives an Infiniti M35x and lets me drive it upon request. It's V6 is stronger than the MKS on paper anyway, The guages and center stack are the opposite of cheap and the handling is excellent. Don't forget the cheap switchgear and rear console vents on the MKS either. As for the trunk opening well, I could care less.
I still think the looks alone are enough to at least have people give the MKS a look. To me it doesn't look too much like anything in it's class.
if you're looking for monster bass then the system isn't tuned for that
And neither is the Mark Levinson system in the Lexus - my Lexus has to be turned to ear-splitting volume to really pump out any bass at all. Something I've had to get used to, because I like bass.....but when you hear noise you've never heard before from a CD, you get used to liking it pretty quickly.
cowbell: " the interior of the Lucerne is kept that way because of the demands of the demographic that buys it."...could you elaborate on that, in comparison to the MKS???
gregg: same question, really...what is being done to the new LaCrosse to make it so much different than the previous Lacrosse or the Lucerne???
My problems with the Lucerne stem mainly from the center "stack". The radio and HVAC controls. It has been improved for 2009, but it is still integrated into the rest of the dash like an old car. An by integrated, I mean not at all. The is a square hole cut into the dash, and then all the control are plopped in. It just seems to me like all function and no form. Like how cars were built in the late 80s.
On a different note, the THX sound system: I haven't heard it in the MKS, but in the MKZ, it's phenomenal. It's a shame if they didn't properly re-tune it for the MKS. Then again, the 2007 MKZ won a couple of independent awards for best factory sound system, yet Insideline still said of the MKZ "the sound quality seems bland regardless of the music genre." And said the stereos in the TL and ES350 were "sound more engaging at any volume." Maybe Insideline is quite sure how to use the THX sound system in any car.
Another note on audio, the same question of what brand the speakers are could be asked of Lexus's Mark Levinson stereo. There are no "Mark Levinson" speakers. The company only makes, pre-amplifiers, amplifiers, players, and processors.
the 2007 MKZ won a couple of independent awards for best factory sound system, yet Insideline still said of the MKZ "the sound quality seems bland regardless of the music genre."
My point exactly - how can a stereo win awards for sound quality and get rave (or at least good) reviews from all other reviewers yet InsideLine finds it "bland"?
It's tough to believe a review when it goes 180 degrees from almost every other review out there.
The Lucerne is a transition vehicle between the Park Avenue and the next Lucerne which will not have to appeal to so many people who want a column shifter option and other "old car" features. The exterior pretty much nailed it...it looks like a larger version of the current Passat (whereas the Taurus aimed for the previous Passat....and missed).
The new Lacrosse will be more in the new Malibu idiom, but more elegant. It will be quiet, the direct injection 3.6 will be available, and the interior will be upgraded significantly. At least it should give some buyers pause in buying the MKZ, if they were cross-shopped.
Hey Akirby - what gave you the impression I am looking for bass? This system needs to be at least better than in my 35K Avalon, that's all I'm saying. We brought CD's with us with many different kinds of music, from Metal to Techno to complicated and beautiful Instrumental. This 'THX' system just didn't cut it. For every song, we needed to adjust the settings, and some songs sound better than others.
Contrast this to a Lexus, Cadillac, or Mercedes sound system... heck even to the Avalon, and it just doesn't cut it.
I don't need awards to tell me what's good, when my ears can do just fine. Lincoln really needed to impress with this car, and the outside does just that. IMO it slips when you get into the details.
I love the design, though. And if they get serious and put a real sound system (not delco tuned by THX) and a bigger trunk opening, with more wood inside the cabin, I may be back for a second look.
I just assumed that since the THX system doesn't produce monster bass and that's what a lot of people today are looking for.
Perhaps yours was defective or maybe they didn't do the vehicle specific tuning on the MKS (although that would be hard to believe). Or maybe you just have a different personal preference.
Ford certainly has their share of mediocre sound systems (the 'audiophile' system in my Fusion, e.g.) but their THX system is not one of them.
Most people have the same feeling about BOSE audio systems, yet you seem to like them.
I think the latest systems are pretty good. When was the last time you heard a Cadillac's BOSE system?
Also, even the name BOSE carries cachet, Lincoln should have gave the extra bucks and got a cachet-rich system. They would have gotten better sound for sure, but since many people unfortunately don't see the lincoln brand as aspirational anymore, surrounding themselves with powerful brand names would certainly help Lincoln.
I agree with you Akirby, the THX is better than the audiophile system in the Fusion and other recent Fords.
Its just such an attractive car, I wish it didn't have the gun slit rear window and tiny trunk opening. This car is such a tease, such a huge trunk whose space in not accessible :P
On a personal note, I wish the hard drive was bigger. That's not a deal breaker though.
BOSE only carries cachet among folks who don't know anything about audio. Even the mild audio enthusiast typically despises the brand. I assume you've never heard the slogan "Bose - better sound through marketing"?
I'm not a Bose hater per se - I have their clock radio and it's great - but it's certainly not in the THX or Mark Levinson league.
With the THX system, you will feel like you are in a concert hall. I am always amazed by the sound. I agree the rear trunk is narrow and I experience the same with the MKZ. What I did find out that it took just about everything I could put in it short of big and bulky (more that 22 inches in height that was hard). Medium and smaller bags and luggage was no problem. I guess much depends on you circumstances. It is just my wife and I so it can handle it. When you have kids with duffle bags of stuff, there may be a challenge. I am not sure if the back seats for the MKS will go down. It may not with the size trunk it has.
With the trunk - it all depends on what you are carrying. If your going to a BBQ, and you put Meat, Soda bottles, Beer, Charcoal, Etc. then the MKS will handle it. Putting it in and getting it out will be a pain, as it will be deep inside the huge trunk and you will have to really reach to get at it.
Try to put a decent size cooler in the trunk and your down for the count.
In a car of this size, class, and price range it was downright foolish for them to make such a silly mistake. That is borderline deal breaker for me. Besides the sound system it is really one of the few things holding me back.
To Be honest, I am not sure on it yet. It did not bother me when I was test driving it. I guess if it did, the rear camera would take up the slack. I am not sure if the display will be on the screen in the center, up in the mirror, or maybe you can go both. Mine will not be here till next month. It would be slick if you could do both. Does anyone know this?
I don't want them to 'slap' a brand name on to a regular sound system. They are currently engaged in 'THX Certified' slapping. Don't be fooled, its a regular system with more speakers and adjustment options.
I want them to be a true luxury contender and offer us premium features for the premium asking price. Lincoln has a damaged brand, one of the ways to heal a damaged brand is to associate it with more established, high cachet brands. Damaged or not, every true luxury automaker offers high end premium audio systems.
Aside from just having bragging rights, a true 'branded' high end sound system would have sounded better than this 'THX Certified' system. When we tested it, we would not have to adjust the system for the different types of music that we tried. I recall that on some Rock/Metal songs, we heard artificial distortion! It was actually unpleasant, as if the speakers could not handle the different types of sounds!
In a real system, the music is so good you will want to sit in the car a bit longer just to listen to your favorite track. You can hear notes you never heard before. Lincoln needs to understand that they have competition, other cars this size and price offer a better sound experience.
There is still hope that Lincoln will play ball...
Had both ('05 LS430 --ML, '08 Navigator--THX).. not to rain on any parades, but to me they both sound exactly the same.
I'm not an audiophile in any way, though.
I do like a Top tier steakhouse steak a lot better than a Friday's one, though -- must be what they feed the cow, I don't know.
Anyways, to stay on topic, I think the MKS looks nice and I'll give it a test drive in a few months. Just not convinced on the the way that rear end looks, though.
Too bad nobody cares about the car's performance. A premium car is more than hood struts or a premium sound system.I can install a premium sound system in the car as I can in any car ; but I can't improve on the car's drive-train without incurring cost that are well above that of a premium sound system.
Lets face it . The car doesn't have many attributes to be praised for. It doesn't handle or accelerate or ride as well as any of the sport sedans that Ford is marketing this vehicle against. The car is not very well received by those that drive Towncars because it doesn't have that floating ride that they are accustomed to. Otherwise, the car tries to be everything to everybody but winds up being nothing special. The only thing left to scrutinize this car for are the hood struts or its stereo system. And from what I understand the stereo isn't very good also.
I cannot believe that Ford would release a car with headrests that smash into the back of your head CONSTANTLY. This is an absolute deal breaker and a Car and Driver tester noted the same problem. Spare me the " They had to do it becuase of safety reasons" line " as I have never sat in any other car in which the headrests were an intrusion. I wonder if Ford or some aftermarket company plan on doing something about this.
Comments
The Lucerne has a nicely trimmed interior, is very quiet, and unlike the MKS, offers a V8. The MKS, however, offers AWD and soon Ecoboost. As for appealing to 66 year old men, of course Buicks and Lincolns appeal to old guys. But a few younger people cross-shopping the Lucerne have also found value and luxury there. Neither one is going to appeal much to the BMW/Mercedes crowd. Or Acura buyers either.
We were at the auto show in DC a few months later and were talking with the woman at the Enclave display, and she mentioned that the interior of the Lucerne is kept that way because of the demands of the demographic that buys it.
On the other hand, my wife saw a commercial for the MKS (the rocket ship one), and with out knowing what it was said it looked cool.
I think he's trying very hard to do that. The interiors have improved 1000% since Mulally took over - the leather is so much better, the other materials the same, and the design is beautiful. Lots of money has gone into the cabins. The quality is Lexus like in there now, and I prefer their looks in many cases to my Lexus that I drive. The prop rod remains an issue on some models, and I just hate it. It won't stop me from buying one, but will piss me off everytime I raise the hood for anything. It's just not classy.....
Otherwise though, I see tremendous progress with the cars Ford is putting out since Billy went back under the ether and Alan took over.
The Ecoboost will really distinguish the MKS. I would have considered it if it weren't so tall with those too long overhangs. Heck, if the MKZ had truly distinctive styling, stability control and a better interior, that might have been my car. The 2010 will get close, but unfortunately, they could not afford to change the Fusion body with Lincoln accents look.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f19dd0e/62
Not sure where this issue began but I assure you it has struts for both the hood and trunk - just like the Taurus and Sable. The MKZ has the cheap-assed prop-rod - at least for now.
If they want to cut corners some place, why cut cut some of those upper management bonuses and compensation, especially when the firm suffers a fiscal year loss?
You should not have to walk in expecting a lower value product. Our (as in American) products used to be the best because we made them that way. We can do that again, and I don't know if the top brass - or unions - at Ford really understand what painful actions need to be done.
The MKS, though, feels 90% done to me.
It should be that good sound system is compatible with your musical preference, and not the other way around. When spending this much on a car, that is the type of experience I am looking for. This is offered in Cadillac, Mercedes, and Lexus choices.
I know Lincoln can fight back. What's really sad is that this car makes such a good first impression, I really want to like it more.
I don't like mis-information. If someone says they don't like something then fine, but don't make personal preferences into objective facts.
For the record I think it's front heavy and not balanced therefore it doesn't handle as well as it could (although I don't see that as a fatal flaw), the gauges are cheap and so is the black center stack. The trunk opening isn't quite as wide as it could be. Other than that, I think they nailed it.
The problem is the cars it competes against do not have those flaws. My friend drives an Infiniti M35x and lets me drive it upon request. It's V6 is stronger than the MKS on paper anyway, The guages and center stack are the opposite of cheap and the handling is excellent. Don't forget the cheap switchgear and rear console vents on the MKS either. As for the trunk opening well, I could care less.
I still think the looks alone are enough to at least have people give the MKS a look. To me it doesn't look too much like anything in it's class.
And neither is the Mark Levinson system in the Lexus - my Lexus has to be turned to ear-splitting volume to really pump out any bass at all. Something I've had to get used to, because I like bass.....but when you hear noise you've never heard before from a CD, you get used to liking it pretty quickly.
Well, it is great you don't defend the things that don't need defending. :P
gregg: same question, really...what is being done to the new LaCrosse to make it so much different than the previous Lacrosse or the Lucerne???
Thanks to both...
On a different note, the THX sound system: I haven't heard it in the MKS, but in the MKZ, it's phenomenal. It's a shame if they didn't properly re-tune it for the MKS. Then again, the 2007 MKZ won a couple of independent awards for best factory sound system, yet Insideline still said of the MKZ "the sound quality seems bland regardless of the music genre." And said the stereos in the TL and ES350 were "sound more engaging at any volume." Maybe Insideline is quite sure how to use the THX sound system in any car.
Another note on audio, the same question of what brand the speakers are could be asked of Lexus's Mark Levinson stereo. There are no "Mark Levinson" speakers. The company only makes, pre-amplifiers, amplifiers, players, and processors.
My point exactly - how can a stereo win awards for sound quality and get rave (or at least good) reviews from all other reviewers yet InsideLine finds it "bland"?
It's tough to believe a review when it goes 180 degrees from almost every other review out there.
The new Lacrosse will be more in the new Malibu idiom, but more elegant. It will be quiet, the direct injection 3.6 will be available, and the interior will be upgraded significantly. At least it should give some buyers pause in buying the MKZ, if they were cross-shopped.
Contrast this to a Lexus, Cadillac, or Mercedes sound system... heck even to the Avalon, and it just doesn't cut it.
I don't need awards to tell me what's good, when my ears can do just fine. Lincoln really needed to impress with this car, and the outside does just that. IMO it slips when you get into the details.
I love the design, though. And if they get serious and put a real sound system (not delco tuned by THX) and a bigger trunk opening, with more wood inside the cabin, I may be back for a second look.
This car is both good and bad, IMO at least.
Perhaps yours was defective or maybe they didn't do the vehicle specific tuning on the MKS (although that would be hard to believe). Or maybe you just have a different personal preference.
Ford certainly has their share of mediocre sound systems (the 'audiophile' system in my Fusion, e.g.) but their THX system is not one of them.
Most people have the same feeling about BOSE audio systems, yet you seem to like them.
2,374 MKS in August as compared to 2,279 in July.
Also, even the name BOSE carries cachet, Lincoln should have gave the extra bucks and got a cachet-rich system. They would have gotten better sound for sure, but since many people unfortunately don't see the lincoln brand as aspirational anymore, surrounding themselves with powerful brand names would certainly help Lincoln.
Its just such an attractive car, I wish it didn't have the gun slit rear window and tiny trunk opening. This car is such a tease, such a huge trunk whose space in not accessible :P
On a personal note, I wish the hard drive was bigger. That's not a deal breaker though.
I'm not a Bose hater per se - I have their clock radio and it's great - but it's certainly not in the THX or Mark Levinson league.
Even the plate would cringe.
I agree 100% Lincoln needed a branded sound system. I refuse to be ripped off, if I can avoid it :P
Try to put a decent size cooler in the trunk and your down for the count.
In a car of this size, class, and price range it was downright foolish for them to make such a silly mistake. That is borderline deal breaker for me. Besides the sound system it is really one of the few things holding me back.
That small rear window doesn't bother you?
I didn't say the THX system was as good as a Mark Levinson, only that more people know the THX name.
Where does it come up short, in your opinion? Bass, sound stage, etc.?
https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/owners_manuals/default.asp
I want them to be a true luxury contender and offer us premium features for the premium asking price. Lincoln has a damaged brand, one of the ways to heal a damaged brand is to associate it with more established, high cachet brands. Damaged or not, every true luxury automaker offers high end premium audio systems.
Aside from just having bragging rights, a true 'branded' high end sound system would have sounded better than this 'THX Certified' system. When we tested it, we would not have to adjust the system for the different types of music that we tried. I recall that on some Rock/Metal songs, we heard artificial distortion! It was actually unpleasant, as if the speakers could not handle the different types of sounds!
In a real system, the music is so good you will want to sit in the car a bit longer just to listen to your favorite track. You can hear notes you never heard before. Lincoln needs to understand that they have competition, other cars this size and price offer a better sound experience.
There is still hope that Lincoln will play ball...
I'm not an audiophile in any way, though.
I do like a Top tier steakhouse steak a lot better than a Friday's one, though -- must be what they feed the cow, I don't know.
Anyways, to stay on topic, I think the MKS looks nice and I'll give it a test drive in a few months. Just not convinced on the the way that rear end looks, though.