What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

alltorque · November 2009

4-door sedan Fiesta ? :confuse: One question...............why ? :lemon:

fintail · November 2009

For the NA market they'll probably make a 4 door model with a trunk/boot

texases · November 2009

For whatever reason we equate 4 door hatch with cheap economy car, and don't do the same with 4 door sedans, despite their reduced utility. What, you're expected rational decision making from the home of the SUV?

nippononly · November 2009

Indeed, good sir, that IS the question. They should have just sold the 3- and 5-door hatches, and made a sport model of the 3-door much like the RS in the UK.

Instead, they are going to do to the Fiesta what Toyota did with the Vitz in 2000: giving it a plastered-on trunk (and calling it the Echo), which everybody thought looked ridiculous.

At least we will get the 5-door. :sick:

andre1969 · November 2009

While I'm not a big fan of hatchbacks, I think most little cars really NEED to be a hatchback. Their styling is too stubby to work well as a sedan or coupe, and in converting to a notchback you lose a lot of practicality, as it cuts down on cargo volume.

However, I do think the 4-door Yaris works pretty well as a notchback...although for a subcompact, it's really not all that tiny. But I imagine the hatchback styles are still more practical.

lilengineerboy · November 2009

I am actually almost excited about the Fiesta. I think it will be one of the more interesting small cars that show up here. I would do a 5-door 6-speed manual. I am still really curious about pricing. I am also curious about aftermarket support. The Civic and Mini have a relatively robust performance aftermarket. I hope Ford helps to develop the same with the Fiesta and the Focus. That is how you get brand loyalty with the younger folks.

The only reason I have the Accord is because I got used to Honda in the old Civics and older Accords. They were very easy to "optimize." Of course, my '07 might as well have been a Buick for how interesting it is, but lesson learned.

I guess another measure of this will be Subaru's success. All the kids with WRXs will grow up or have needs change...will they get a glorified station wagon with high profile tires and no third row?

ateixeira · December 2009

I think they will get Legacy GT sedans.

They're big now and make a good family/sports sedan.

alltorque · December 2009

Instead, they are going to do to the Fiesta what Toyota did with the Vitz in 2000: giving it a plastered-on trunk (and calling it the Echo), which everybody thought looked ridiculous.

Thankfully we don't get the Toyota Vitz, (Vitz ??), and sub-compact sedans have gone to the great automotive scrapyard in the sky. I really don't think a Fiesta sedan is going to be at all pretty or funky. Maybe they should re-name it the Ford Eric or something.

(With apologies to any Erics out there).

Whilst out in Lincoln, (UK), to-day I noticed one of those old Japanese van-with-windows things that passed for people-carriers and were imported in, (thankfully), very small numbers. This one was a Nissan, I think, and proudly bearing the model name of Bongo Friendee.............I kid you not ! Bet Ford wishes it had thought of that one; a real sure fire seller for the young, trendy market segment. Or maybe not. Sounds like the options list should include a couple of grams of something to smoke and a tie-dyed kaftan. Sorry, off topic..........again.

bumpy · December 2009

proudly bearing the model name of Bongo Friendee.............I kid you not ! Bet Ford wishes it had thought of that one

That one is a Mazda.

This was the Ford:

lilengineerboy · December 2009

I think they will get Legacy GT sedans.

They're big now and make a good family/sports sedan.

I think the first part contradicts the last part (it certainly did with the Honda), but that is a debate for another forum.

nippononly · December 2009

Thankfully we don't get the Toyota Vitz, (Vitz ??), and sub-compact sedans have gone to the great automotive scrapyard in the sky

Yeah, luckily for you they have in the UK, but not in the old US of A. We get the fugly Versa sedan (a chopped Versa 5-door with a trunk glued on), the fuglier Aveo 4-door (even the Aveo 5-door is no prize in the beauty department), and the Yaris 4-door, which is the best-looking of this group, but that is truly faint praise (and the 3- and 5-doors are much better-looking IMO).

Now Ford plans on continuing this tradition with the Fiesta, and I guess we should count our lucky stars that they have seen fit to also offer the 5-door. In much the same way that Toyota eventually started to sell the 5-door Yaris here, I hope Ford will come around and offer the Fiesta 3-door (in RS trim, Ford, C'MON!) a year or two after the initial launch.

lilengineerboy · December 2009

The thought of an SVT/RS/ST Fiesta makes me giddy. Eh, okay maybe giddy is pushing it but I do like the thought of a "hot hatch" from a domestic manufacturer. Is there a sport model of the Fiat/Chrysler?

I guess the other concern is that the Fiesta is more expensive in Europe so it has more features. I hope there is a balance between content and pricing here...the Contour started with a lot of equipment but got de-contented year after year as they tried to meet a pricepoint.

nippononly · December 2009

Yes, there is a sport 500, it is the Abarth, and Fiat has already promised that they WILL sell it stateside. THAT one ought to be a hoot. As would the Fiesta RS be, but in the case of the Ford there have been no promises of a North American sport version that I am aware of.

tifighter · December 2009

Here's the details.

40mpg

ateixeira · December 2009

If you like small sedans, just get a WRX.

Subaru had too much overlap. Every car was small/medium sized. Every single model from the Impreza to the Tribeca had the exact same 16.9 gallon fuel capacity.

That's just wrong. Something had to change.

Outback sales were up 142% in November, so who are we to argue with that?

C&D has a write-up on the new Suzuki Kizashi. It's about the size of the outgoing Legacy, and 0-60 in 7.2s with the 4 banger/6 speed manual combo. Too bad the AWD model only comes in a CVT...

alltorque · December 2009

Yes, there is a sport 500, it is the Abarth,

And there is now the Abarth 500 Esseesse, (sounds as SS). Thiss little beassty hass some 180bhp, IIRC, but what iss desscribed as "firm" susspension - read rock ssssolid. Goes like thingy though, by all accountss. :shades:

The "ordinary" Abarth 500 could well replace my Volvo S60 D5...........I'm getting tired of being grown up

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

Fiat has released an Abarth Esseessee, whatever you called it alltorque. But that car is cool and I'd want mine to have a racing stripe on it. Maybe a white one with a blue racing stripe. And a manual 6-speed as well. This car is going to make some waves in da States.

alltorque · December 2009

I'm having a bad week. The little Abarth "only" puts out 158bhp, not the 180 I stated, so apologies. Suppose 2 out of 3 numbers isn't too bad...........but not too good, either.

Attached link takes you to an EVO magazine test, head-to-head Abarth vs Mini Cooper S. I've made my mind up but you must read and decide for yourself, (here's a clue - I've been sensible for too long)......be interested in your opinion. Enjoy.

Abarth vs Mini"

qbrozen · December 2009

Well, before I read the article, I can say that I am anxiously awaiting the Abarth.

Although I'm afraid, since I've read its even smaller than a MINI, it ain't gonna cut it as a 2-kid hauler.

nippononly · December 2009

Volkswagen Polo wins European Car of the Year award

Volkswagen's new Polo--slated to enter the U.S. market within three years--narrowly beat the Toyota iQ to win the 2010 European Car of the Year award.

The Polo scored 347 points against 337 for the iQ city car. The new Opel Astra was No. 3 with 221 points followed by the Skoda Yeti (158 points); the Mercedes-Benz E-Class (155 points); the Peugeot 3008 (144 points) and the Citroen C3 Picasso (113 points).

VW CEO Martin Winterkorn said the new Polo, the fifth generation of the subcompact car, was designed to address customer expectations with even greater uncompromising standards.

We are naturally very pleased to see our efforts validated in the form of this award," Winterkorn said in a statement.

Stefan Jacoby, CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, said VW could launch a Polo sedan in the U.S. in 2011 or 2012 followed by a hatchback with more space than the European model.

If sold in North America, the Polo would be priced under the Jetta at between $13,000 and $15,000, Jacoby told Automotive News in an interview in April.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091201/CARNEWS/912019997

Looks like a really nice little car, and for $15,000 I think it would do a lot of things better and for less money than the Honda Fit.

nippononly · December 2009

I've got to say, I am very excited about the impending release of the Fiesta. That thing looks fabulous, and it looks to out-Mini the Mini IMO. Not to mention that instead of having to drive 40 miles for warranty service (Mini), I have a Ford dealer in my hometown, not 5 minutes from my house. :-)

And rated at 40mpg? Only problem here is that this looks to be yet another one of these new cars in which the manual actually makes LESS mpg than the automatic. :-(

I will be picking up a new car to replace the Echo in the next year or two and this will be at the top of the list. But I WILL have to check out the Abarth too.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

it's a well-written read, the one on the Abarth 500 and the Mini- Cooper.

They make the Abarth 500 out to be the little annoying brother that's tagging along with big bro Mini-Cooper. Sounds like they found a lessely-made shifting experience and worse handling and road sense on the Abarth 500. But does this really sound like anything new to anyone who's anxiously awaiting the Fiat-sler Abarth 500 here in the States? Of course it doesn't.

And it does nothing to stave off my un-Abarth-ed excitement for the Abarth 500. :shades:

nippononly · December 2009

for Smart and the Toyota (Scion) iQ coming next year....the writer seems to be underwhelmed:

2012 Chevrolet Spark, an AW Flash Drive

This is General Motors' first-ever true mini car, the Korean-built Chevrolet Spark--all 143 inches and 1,900 pounds of it.

In fact, the writer's opinion seems to mostly be summed up by this line:

But what do you expect for $10,000?

0-60 in more than 12 seconds, highway mpg rated 40+ for both manual and auto, due out in about two years. I kinda wish it would sell well for the sake of both GM and the future success of microcars in America in general, but I get a whiff of maximum cheaping out for people on fixed incomes here. And it will come from Korea, the source of GM's VERY underwhelming Aveo currently.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091201/CARREVIEWS/912019996

nippononly · December 2009

Well, now my enthusiasm for the Abarth has been tempered a bit:

The Abarth shows its hand on the first pass, and I mentally move my bets to the Mini. Two faults manifest themselves instantly and both are fundamental: the steering and the chassis.

At low speeds the grip and firm ride gave me confidence, but now Im travelling faster, feedback and accuracy matter and the electric power steering fails dismally. No more than a distant hint of information trickles through the squeezable, flat-bottomed rim; an electric tzzzz is the only hint that your inputs are having some bearing on wheel angle. Its such a shame given the grip and tenacity the front end exhibits.

One of the most important aspects of any car I buy for fun is the quality of the steering, something that ALL cars with electric steering are getting wrong nowadays. It appears that Abarth has been worsened by the same bugaboo. :-(

snakeweasel · December 2009

I kinda wish it would sell well for the sake of both GM and the future success of microcars in America in general

My guess is that once the economy picks up gas prices will head north again and $4-5+ a gallon gas will make micro cars more popular.

ateixeira · December 2009

Where are Polos built? The Euro is too strong against the dollar.

ateixeira · December 2009

I forget where I saw this but they said eventually we'd see an Ecoboost Fiesta.

NOW you're talking. Ecoboosts runs on 87 octane, too.

nippononly · December 2009

They already said they would build Polos in Mexico if they decided to sell them here. Not ideal, I know. Mexican-built VWs have a very poor history in terms of reliability.

texases · December 2009

Well, most VWs have that poor reputation right now...aren't Touaregs built in Germany? They have a terrible record. :sick:

british_rover · December 2009

Nope those are built in Slovakia alongside their Porsche twin the Cayenne.

ateixeira · December 2009

In that case they could at least build them at a profit.

nippononly · December 2009

Fiesta, Mazda2: Platform pals only

December 7, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

LOS ANGELES -- The Ford Fiesta and Mazda2 are two budget cars on the same platform, but Ford and Mazda still labored to differentiate them.

The cars have different engines, lengths and sheet metal. Ford will offer a sedan and hatchback in the United States, while Mazda will sell only a five-door. Mazda also sells a three-door in Europe.

The two vehicles made their world debuts in U.S. trim last week at the Los Angeles Auto Show. Both got redesigns for Europe in 2008.

Each brand's variant carries its own parent company's engine. Despite Mazda's "zoom-zoom" marketing, the Ford engine is more powerful and features variable camshaft timing.

Ford also is debuting a six-speed, dry-clutch automatic transmission here, mostly because the European market prefers stick shifts, said Steve Pintar, Fiesta chief program engineer.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20091207/RETAIL03/312079967/1113

The Fiesta sounds like the more fun of the two, which shouldn't be the case given Mazda's whole brand mission, IMO. With the Mazda having a less powerful engine, I wonder which will have the better fuel economy.

alltorque · December 2009

it's a well-written read, the one on the Abarth 500 and the Mini- Cooper.

I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Without a doubt, the 'Cooper is a very competent car and the baby Abarth does have some "quirks". Guess which you go for depends upon your personal preferences as I think they are two similar - but different - experiences.

The two on-road cars I have most enjoyed driving were a late 1960's Lotus 7, (pre-Caterham), with a Ford 1500cc engine and twin Webers and my late, lamented Skoda Fabia vRS. Both had real character, had to be actually "driven" and would bite your butt if you got lazy whilst er, "making progress"..............but the rewards were always there for those prepared to work at it, as were the almost permanent smiles. I have a feeling that the Abarth 500 is from the same school and that's why I could see me buying one. (after a drive to confirm, of course). However, I'll keep the Volvo until about this time next year and, who knows, Skoda may have delivered on the promised Fabia vRS replacement by then..........that would truly complicate things. :confuse: I don't want just quick and competent, I want quick, (enough), and FUN !!

At present, the wait-list for an Abarth 500 here in UKland is around early-Summer 2010. We're obviously not alone in our impeccable taste. :shades:

To nippononly : don't get too hung-up on the apparent downsides of electric steeering. It's not how it does it but what you can do with it that counts.

nippononly · December 2009

Well I will try not to, but I haven't met an electric steering system yet that I liked.

stever · December 2009

I got a haircut yesterday (no, this isn't a tweet), and my ~~barber~~, ~~stylist~~, ... the woman cutting my hair got to talking about her commute. She had moved to town from 45 miles away a while back and loved being 5 minutes away from everything. And it snowed in town yesterday, and she didn't miss her Geo Metro, which was awful in snow.

So we got to talking Metros - her all time best was 61 mpg. Her father loved working on them so her's was always in good shape. Dad wound up with 7 running Metros at the height of the $4 a gallon gas crisis and wound up selling all of them for around $2,000 each. Most were purchased for a couple of hundred bucks.

alltorque · December 2009

Well I will try not to, but I haven't met an electric steering system yet that I liked.

Repeat after me; "I will learn to love electric steering. I will learn to love electric steering".

Not working ? Didn't for me, either, but at least it's better than the old recirculating ball ~~lash-up~~ system.

ateixeira · December 2009

Saw that, and I wonder if it was even necessary to distinguish them any more than by bodystyle.

I'd want a 5 door so it would be Mazda2 for me.

Bummer is that would exclude the sportier engine.

I don't get this - Ford made it a point of telling us how the Contour was different from the Mondeo, our loss IMHO. GM made the Saturn L series different than the Opel Vecta, and that bombed, too.

I guess it's OK to differentiate when you ADD power.

ateixeira · December 2009

I had one back in college for a year or so.

I never got 61mpg. Usually it was 45 or so.

Still, gas spiked so my timing was perfect. I sold it just as oil went way down.

bumpy · December 2009

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/12/leaked-honda-brochure-provides-- hard-specs-on-2011-honda-cr-z.html

tifighter · December 2009

I like it. Everyone on autoblog is poo-pooing it because of the 0-60. I hope they keep it up...might keep dealers from putting the ADM on it...

nippononly · December 2009

Looks like it's going to be just about perfect. I wonder if those powertrain specs are final for the U.S. version as well? They originally said 130 hp, so it's not quite there. And I'm sure the U.S. model will be a couple hundred pounds lighter because of the deletion of the back seats and all the gear that goes with them.

If this thing can make 45 mpg in my commute and has the handlng of a CRX, it will almost certainly be my next car with any 0-60 time under 10 seconds.

ateixeira · December 2009

0-62 in 9.7s isn't bad for a hybrid, they're usually slower than that.

Plus it'll be lighter.

Ditch the batteries to lighten it more and boost the power a bit and call it an Si, and I might be interested.

bumpy · December 2009

From the specs, it looks like it's going to be a hybrid Fit coupe in all but name, so I would assume the overall weight and size are going to be comparable. It's not the old Insight or even the old CRX

ateixeira · December 2009

Insight was never sporty. Look how narrow the rear axle was, and it had about twelve horsepower. :P

I think this stands a chance at being more like the CRX if they only build an Si model.

british_rover · December 2009

Wait isn't the Fiesta coming over as a five door?

nippononly · December 2009

Yes, this was clear quite some time ago, and your disappointment mirrors mine back then. However, it will have a couple of advantages:
1. They have said it will have a PROPER HANDLING PACKAGE. The current Insight is a squishy thing on tiny gas-saver tires with terrible braking and terrible skidpad numbers. The CRZ will be neither.
2. They have said they will get it down to a maximum of 2500 pounds for the 2-seat North American version. That compares to 2750+ for the Insight, IIRC.

It is my hope that the North American executives will prevail, and this will also (at some point) get a non-hybrid powertrain with a bit more power (how about the existing Civic engine, Honda??), for an SI trim. Last I heard, Honda NA had already asked for this, and the folks over in Japan were resisting offering it.

ateixeira · December 2009

Sedan and hatchback (3 door IIRC?).

[Edited]

ateixeira · December 2009

I think the Fit's engine is more likely, given it's already on that same platform.

Add VTEC-iii Type RRR-R or whatever to boost power to 130-140 or so, and keep it light. Very light.

nippononly · December 2009

You figure if they get the hybrid version to 2500 pounds, the non-hybrid would be more like 2300. Then just boost the redline on that little 1.5 a bit, and maybe they could get 130 hp out of that one without the aid of batteries.

A 2300-pound coupe with 130 hp, a 6-speed, and a lowered suspension with 16s and some 205mm tires? Could be a lot of fun. :-)

ateixeira · December 2009

Now you're talking. A new age CRX Si.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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