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They are 2 different cars for 2 different uses.
The Jeep is a more rugged hose out vehicle. The (NEW) FJ is a, Honey, can I drive the FJ today, Pleasesssssss!
The original FJ was a true rugged hose out vehicle. A true Jeep twin brother. The new FJ is the White shirt and tie cousin to the blue collar, home boy Jeep, who want's to come down to the sandbox and play with his friends. Too bad his mom won't let him. She doesn't want him to get dirty.
(no joke) That is the problem with the new FJ. Even if you guys buy it to take it off road. Your wife isn't going to let you do that. It's too nice inside to get it dirty. I'm not kidding. You watch. You guys who get one. See how your wife reacts over the next year about you taking the new FJ off road mudding! Ain't going to happen.
But we with the new Wrangler are always willing to share the sand box, any time. Come on down and let's be playmates!
Most of the other Toyotas are just very well built and have become the standard. Guess rattles and squeaks are "soul and heritage" in your eyes... me, I'll take well built and reliable any day... and will put my LC's up against a Jeep on any criteria... including soul.
Jeep goes back with a heritage a lot longer than than the FJ. I'm sure they both have their points.
The reason Jeeps still look the same is because the original designers were all about function over form, and that heritage has been maintained. Would anyone ever point to your LC and say, oh, yeah, I had one of those 30 years ago? I didn't think so.
Look what's happened to the LC. You, yourself, didn't buy one new. The FJ40 has morphed into a 50+K vehicle that few can afford or even identify. Where is the heritage in that?
Who would take a 50+K vehicle off road or even your used LC?
A 50's FJ would be hard to find indeed, particularly since it wasn't manufactured until 1960 and not available in the US until 1963.
Btw, specs for the Jeep were laid down in the 1940. I don't think we can compare heritage between the two.
I bought one of the First FJ40s sold in CA. It was the small window 1964 model. It was rugged and held it's own against the Jeeps in the annual Tierra del Sol runs. I would not say it was reliable or a copy of the CJs. The engine was a near blueprint copy of the Chevy 6 cylinder from the 1940s and 50s. Many parts were interchangeable and I needed to change many. The engine was very cheaply built. Fiber timing gears went out 3 times in 50k miles. Finally put in a Chevy steel gear and ended that problem. Used high quality US made valves and ended the valve burning problems. I do miss the vehicle, it was a lot of fun. I would not consider the current Land Cruisers true off road vehicles. They became too big after the FJ45 PU for getting in and out of tight places. The new FJ is not in the same league as the FJ40.
Is the Corvette anything like the original? I'd say no, and it still has as strong an auto heritage as anything out there.
A new LC is for a small select group, rich. A used LC is extremely reliable, awesome off road (I take mine there).
Also, there are lot's of people that don't buy jeeps due to reliability concerns... no one would avoid a toyota because of reliabilty.
And true the Jeep does have more than 60 years of service. I'm not sure I can agree that it single handedly won the second word war, but it did play a role for sure. And the Jeep vehcle concept was coppied by the Germans in the form of the KubleWagon (sp?) before then end of the war. So it's safe to say it had a positive impact on the war effort.
On the mechanical side of things, the FJ-40's in line six engine was not a copy of anything Jeep made, but largely a copy of the GM in line six, so much so that many of the internal components are apparently interchangeable!
But then maybe the reason the FJ-40 is pretty good is because it was a copy of things that actually worked.
And to those who say the FJ's are 'sooooo' hard to find, well it's true. But then there were very few sold in North America when compared to the Jeep. Furthermore, the FJ-40s had such bad rust problems that they simply dissolved in areas that salted the roads in the winter. The Rust problems on FJs makes you think Jeeps must be made from stainless steel.
That being said Jeep reliability has especially when considering the Wranglers is not bad. The Wrangler is actually rated pretty high by most surveys for reliability and resale value. I have owned and still own several Jeeps and found them to be quite good. My 1973 J-20 has over 350 000 miles on the (V8) engine and it's never been opened up. My (V8) '82 Cherokee has over 260 000 miles on it. I have a 2 year old Rubicon that has never need anything but oil changes. Several friends have Cherokee sports with 4.0L in line sixes: One is over 450 000 miles, others are over 300 000 with no major repairs. Incidentally the 4.0L in line six is probably one of the best off-road gasoline engines ever built. For bottom end torque, long life, and reliability there is really nothing that comes close.
I'll give it to you for originality... don't think those particular words have ever been used to describe Jeeps before today.
My jeep inline 6 had great torque... short life and no reliability...
As for FJ, I think it will be strong off-road, seems to be well built under the body, but they will lose that plastic bumper on day one... They'll all have new metal bumpers quickly... or none at all?
Compared to what Steenh? A WRX? Like I said before FJ stands for FisherPrice Jeep. Not only are the bumpers plastic but the stupid gas tank is plastic with NO skid plate. This thing is not meant for off-road from the factory. It also does not have a real skid plate protecting the very exposed aluminum transfer case.
Now I guess you can add skid plates, a solid front axle, a real low range transfercase, take a sawzall to the roof, put an inline 6 in it for real torque, lockers all around, and some real tires but then we could do all this to a Bently too! The FJ is just simply not equipped for hard core off-road from the factory.
I had a very bad experience with the one jeep I owned, and won't own another. I've had nearly flawless experiences with 4 different Toyotas. Of course they aren't perfect, see, we do agree on something.
The FJ's Plastic gas tank, I doubt it's stupid, it's plastic and plastic is inanimate... also wondering what's wrong with a plastic tank? Actually does have a skid plate too, also plastic. Plastic bends and then bends back... metal just bends, Plastic won't spark when you drag it over a rock... metal will. I actually think it's a pretty decent approach. Doubt it's cheaper than metal so that's probably not why they did it.
We also agree on the bumpers... they are a joke. Other than that, the hardware is there to play off road. I'm sure owners will be joining you whereever you go.
4x4 Bentley? Hmmmmmm.
But regarding the FJ’s plastic gas tank I do have a problem with that – that is if plastic is where the story ends. Plastic is a good choice from a corrosion standpoint plastic tanks never rust out. My 1982 Cherokee has a plastic tank, and Jeep started doing this in the 70’s. And I have never seen one rust out. However, a good engineering team building an off-road vehicle would not stop there. Some plastics’ properties with respect to temperature change a lot. The type of plastics used to make fuel tanks are in the thermoplastics family like polyethylene, polypropylene etc. On a very hot day the puncture resistance is significantly reduced, on a very cold day the fracture toughness is reduced. As temperatures drop thermoplastics go through what is call the glass transition temperature where it they becomes extremely brittle.
So imagine: wheeling on a really hot day (in Death Valley) over rocks and you happen to suddenly drop down and a jagged rock digs into your unprotected plastic tank. The forward momentum of the vehicle just serves to aid in ripping a larger hole in the tank and within seconds the entire contents of the tank is now on the ground. Now not only do you have no fuel to get home but a huge safety issue with copious gasoline fumes – just one more bang of a rim on a rock or maybe two rocks grinding together as your vehicle comes to a stop and WHOOOP! FJ no longer stands for FisherPrice Jeep, but FIRE Jeep.
Now how about the other extreme. You’re winter wheeling in Northern Alberta Canada. It’s –45 outside and your plastic tank is pretty brittle. You come down hard on a snow covered log you didn’t see. BANG! Your exposed FJ’s tank lands on the log and splits along one of the contours in the plastic. All the fuel is on the ground. Its so cold out, and with all the snow its unlikely a fire will start, but lets hope you are wheeling with a buddy, cuz otherwise you’re gonna freeze to death with no heat in your FJ – now known as a FROZEN Jeep!
So in materials Engineering they not only taught us about the corrosion properties of thermoplastics but of mechanical properties with respect to temperature. A GOOD engineering team WOULD use a plastic fuel tank, BUT they would put a substantial metal skid plate under it for protection. Which is exactly what Jeep has been doing for almost 30 years!
Time to rent The Graduate perhaps? :shades:
Steve, Host
Metal bends permanently only if you exceed its elastic limit.
tidester, host
The neighbor in front of me has a clean CA FJ40 with no rust. I am always after him to sell it. He wants to trade for my little Kubota tractor. The prices are high when you consider I paid $2400 cash for mine brand new in 1964.
Is that good or bad? I see cars today being totalled with what looks like minimal damage. Is it these exotic plastics that cost an arm and a leg to replace? I want steel in my vehicles the thicker the better. I want to hammer out the dents not order a new bumper from Toyota at 10 times the cost.
I suppose one could always build a skid plate for the FJ, but then I really hate to spend $35 000.00 on a vehicle and then have to go rebuild it just so I can use it for the hard core stuff that the Jeep would do from factory.
Your analogy holds if you puncture a metal gas tank too. Or if you run out of gas. You are stranded Right? And, I believe that there is substantial protection for the tank in the form of a plastic skid plate. Not sure you can make the case at this point that the FJ's tank is more susceptable to puncture than a jeep's. Certainly would be a case that at this point is not based on fact... just opinion.
Regarding the plastic bumpers, the plastic side pieces on the FJ are for show only... like I said, I almost ripped one off just checking to see what it was made of. Kind of disappointing. If I were to buy one, that bumper would be the first thing to be replaced.
About the fuel tank issue: You're right if you puncture any tank, no matter what it's made from, it will drain fuel on the ground. The key here is how likely is that to happen with different tank/skid plate configurations. A plastic skid plate is not a skid plate at all in my opinion. Nobody with a straight face can look me in the eye and call that thing they strapped to the under side of the FJ, a skid plate. It's a joke, it’s about 1/16 of an inch thick and made from the same soft plastic the tank is made from. It really offers no more protection for that tank than a paper bag over your head would from grenade shrapnel. I really had to laugh when I saw it. It's like Toyota is saying: 'its there just so we can say we put something there to protect the tank. It won't help you and it cost us next to nothing to do it, but you can feel good knowing we thought about it' Nice and Warm and Fuzzy oh Happy Happy Joy Joy! You know what they say; ignorance it bliss, and their betting you’re pretty ignorant.
Steenh, the best way is still a plastic corrosion resistant tank, with a very hard shell (like steel) that will not puncture. If you hit the shell verry verry hard it might dent but it still won't puncture and the tank will be protected.
But really, I crawled under the FJ cruiser and then under the Jeep Wrangler and the Jeep has skid plates everywhere and the Cruiser has very little to protect it from the rocks. Every Wrangler has a factory frame-rail-to-frame-rail skid plate protecting the transmission and transfercase. This means if you drop that area of the vehicle on a boulder the mechanical components don't see any impact or loading. Plus every Wrangler’s plastic fuel tank is protected with STEEL skid plate that's about 3/32 of an inch thick.
I'm not a huge fan of FJ. It is OK, but needs mods to be a real competitor to the hard core off-roaders. Probably more a competitor to XTerra. I think they missed the boat when they didn't retro back a bit more and build a jeep like vehicle (maybe with a plastic skidplate... don't know). They missed what I was hoping for but I expect that future versions will be built up, I can't be the only big Toyota fan with these concerns. Then I might be in the market.
So, you have choices... buy FJ and do some mods, wait and hope Toy changes FJ, buy jeep and deal with the crappy reliability, or buy used LC/4runner etc... and mod for the hardcore off-road.
I'll choose the wait or buy used over jeep.
Don't expect any big improvements on this FJ platform Steenh. The FJ's unibody is set up for independent front suspension (IFS) just as the 4Runner is. In fact, it uses the same parts. IFS is poor for articulation. Toyota isn't going to spend all the money to build one vehicle with a solid axle in front. And they aren't going to put a removable top on it either. They MIGHT (if they cared) put some decent steel skid plates on it, but I doubt they will do this either because most people that will buy the FJ will not get mud on the tires. However this potential market segment wants to own a vehicle that ‘looks’ like a real off-roader, one that looks like that original FJ, but in reality it’s mostly window dressing. Basically what you see is what you get. Some things that would make it a good Jeep off-road counterpart will just not be possible the way this platform is configured. It would cost way too much and for Toyota it makes poor business sense.
On the other hand, Jeep’s basic platform had a convertible top and solid axles for over 60 years, through redesigns they continued with the basic physics that worked well off-road and added features to further enhance ability. Since this platform was always set up this way, for them to continue putting solid axles in the all-new 2007 wrangler is no big deal. It does not share a platform with any other Daimler Chrysler vehicle so there are no compromises. It's designed to be the best at one thing: off-road.
As for your (bad) experience regarding the Jeep Wrangler's reliability, I can only point to the excellent reliability rating I told you about before which I found on MSN autos and other sites. I have owned many Jeeps and have several friends that have owned them and we have all had really good success with their performance and reliability. No complaints.
If I really wanted an off-road machine I would dump the FJ and buy the 2007 Wrangler Rubicon in a heartbeat.
I don't know why they don't, but honestly have never tried to get the answer. I'm sure someone reading this board knows... and it would be nice to hear from someone else...
I'm starting to bore myself :>
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/4_10_toy.htm
However the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the full size LC, its based on the 4-runner which I believe has been IFS everywhere for a long, long time.
Steenh, there are two really simple reasons why Toyota does not offer the real off-road basics like solid axles in the new FJ: 1) it would be way to expensive for them to do this on just one model. 2) The true off-road crowd is not the market they are focusing on. This vehicle is intended for the office guys and soccer moms that watch TV and see a select few people doing the extreme stuff in Jeeps and old FJ’s and then they think they would like to have a vehicle that kind of portrays that image. But at the same time they don’t want to give up the nice ride of the IFS, the very quiet ride and all that extra room. The new FJ is not really intended to do the real stuff, its just intended to portray that image by riding on the old FJ’s reputation. Kind of like a pellet gun modeled after a Colt 1911 compared to the real .45 caliber Colt government issued 1911. You can fool a lot of people with the air gun, but when push comes to shove it won’t do the same thing.
Oh and Steenh, I can tell you really love these conversations
Here are the specs on the new 78 Series... obviously not sold in US. Please note the solid front axle.
Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications
Engine
Bore & Stroke: 94.0mm x 100.0mm
Displacement: 4164cc
Compression Ratio: 18.8:1
Fuel System: Direct injection EFI.
Engine Block: 6 cylinders, In-line, SOHC, 4 valves per cylinder.
Maximum Power: 122kW@3400rpm
Max Torque: 380Nm@1400rpm
Cylinders: 6
Valves: 4 per cylinder
Transmission: 5 speed manual
Gear Ratios
First: 4.529:1
Second: 2.464:1
Third: 1.490:1
Fourth: 1.000:1
Fifth: 0.811:1
Reverse: 4.313:1
Final: 4.100:1
Suspension
Front : Rigid live axle, leading arm, coil springs, gas dampers and anti-roll bar.
Rear : Rigid live axle, semi-elliptic leaf springs, gas dampers.
I would have to guess that Toyota sells at least as many solid front axle LC's as they do IFS LC's since most IFS are sold in US.
Here are some LC sales stats I dug up.
The Year 2000 was the 50th Anniversary of the Cruiser and total sales were over 191,000. US Sales were around 50k. Total Global production up until 2000 was 3.72 million.
By contrast, the entire jeep brand including Grand, Liberty Cherokee and Wrangler sold 214k units in 2005. My guess is that LC is selling more units today than the entire Jeep brand, and more Solid Axle LC's than Wranglers... if they would just import them to the US.
You are wearing me down :sick:
OK the 78 series LC’s production run went from 1985 to 2002, so it’s done. And yes, it looks to have had leaf springs in the back and coils up front – (strange they didn’t go to coils all around like the Grand Cherokee but anyway..)
The 80 series had solid axles but its production run seems to have ended in 1997.
The 90 series comes with IFS. It was one of the main new features of the model. The 100 series is also offered in IFS only, as far as I can tell.
I can’t find any evidence that Toyota made a vehicle with front and back solid axles in 2005 or that they will for 2006. Again, this is kind of moot since the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the LC but on the 4Runner and to my knowledge it is NOT offered anywhere with a solid front axle!
About Jeep vs. LC production, I think you’ll see a rapid jump in Jeep sales world wide in the next few years. Daimler Chrysler is now using a Steyr plant in Austria to manufacture more Jeep models for Europe. I have heard from several sources that the demand for Jeeps in Europe is quite strong and that filling the demand has been the problem in the past.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107198
When I was in Ukraine last year I saw several Jeeps and a lot of Mercedes G-Wagons, but I didn’t see even one LC. In Russia this year, again, I saw several Wranglers, and a few Cherokees, but can’t remember seeing one LC – lots of Nivas though
The new 2007 Jeep Wrangler will also be offered, in more than 100 countries world wide. This is a major expansion for this model. It will be offered in both right and left drive with the CRD diesel as an option. The much longer (20” more in the wheel base) 4-door Unlimited version will also be offered. It will be the only current production 4-door vehicle with a removable top produced in the world. All Wranglers will be offered in the Rubicon package for the ultimate off-road equipment. I would dare say that the Rubicon Unlimited 4-door model is likely to take a bite out of Land Cruiser sales in countries where vehicles are used for work and not for status – it’s just better equipped than even most equipped LCs that were ever made.
He's thinking of selling it and buying a 2006 fiber top 78 loaded including fender flares and the meaty Bridgestones.
Honestly, I thought his FZJ-78 was expensive at $28gs, after noticing the Jeeps prices, whhoo wee, these companies are making alot of money.
As for the FJ-Cruiser, 4Runner, there based on the LandCruiser Prado Chassis, the 120 series. Yes, the GX-470 is a LandCruiser Prado. Your thinking that the 4Runner and FJ are like the Nissan Pathfinder and Jeep Cherokee...unibody.
The 4Runner, FJ-Cruiser, LandCruiser Prado, Lexus GX/LX-470, LandCruiser 100 are all body on frame vehicles. They are all amazingly capable, but to be honest, since I am an FJ owner, I wish that the front piece of junk bumper is optional lol.
In the Middle East, MAINLY in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and UAE; the LandCruiser 100, 120, and 70 series sell 75% total. Thats 25% of Camrys, Corollas, Avalons...the rest of the lineup. In the more rugged countries such as Oman, Yemen, UAE, its 80% Toyota sales, and 20% of other makes. Jeep Wranglers don't sell because there not attractive at all.. in the eyes of the buyers there.
And with all honesty, i've seen 1 Jeep out of 3000 cars over there, and they don't look like they fit in at all. The Jeep Cherokee over there is a Jeep Liberty. Very poor sales, and the Grand Cherokee, wich is ..well a Cherokee hardly sells.
The new Nissan models such as the Armada, Murano, and Patrol are all picking up sales. But Ford, Dodge, GM have been terrible sellers there.
Back to the FJ, I do think the FJ will sell alot in the Middle East, but the real offroaders wont give up their 70 series for them. The 100 series in the Middle East seen the last SFA in 2003. SFA are also ALOT cheaper than IFS.
So to be honest, Toyota is dumb for offereing IFS with the new FJ because its costing them more to make. But the FJ is a very capable rig. And I am one of the few that will take the FJ out in the rocks, mud, sand.
This is the vehicle I had hoped for when Toyota announced the FJ plans. Oh well, I can wait for a decent vehicle to come along. My neighbor just bought a perfect 2003 LX470 with 20k miles for 30 grand. Some fool wanting an economy car probably. Now is the time to buy the big SUVs while folks are in a gas panic.
Would the diesel cost more or less there?
Steve, Host
Will you be replacing the bumper? And, what's your opinion of the underbody protection... vs. say, a wrangler? Last time I drove a wrangler was a rental on St John. Had 30k miles on it. Rattled like a can of bolts... probably that tough skid plate getting ready to fall off?
In looking at the data on worldwide LC sales, one thing jumped out. No where did they mention Jeep as a competitor. Lot's of references to Nissan Patrol... none mentioned jeep. Wonder why? (Actually I don't... I know why)
As far as Jeeps being sold around the world goes though, I have been to eastern Europe a few times and have seen almost nothing with a Toyota badge on it. When I was in Russia I rode in one cab that was a Toyota Corolla and that’s pretty well the only Toyota I saw there. But I saw several Jeeps.
I think this new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited will really further the expansion of Jeep since it will be offered with the diesel (first time), 4-door convertible (first time), air locking front and back dana 44 solid axles, 66:1.0 crawl ratio, 6-speed tans, electronically disconnecting sway bar (first time), and a standard full skid plate compliment. It really is an impressive package that offers significantly more than the competition. I hear the RTI (ramp travel index) for the new wrangler is very impressive too, somewhere between 650 and 700!
In actuality, the North American automotive consumer is pretty screwed up. They buy SUVs when they should buy cars or minivans. Most of them don’t know how to safely operate a 4x4 and as a result they end up flipping it over because thy think they can jump in and corner it like a Ferrari. Then they blame the manufacturer and put pressure the maker to make them safer and more stable. This is another reason why you end up with SUVs that have 6 inches of ground clearance, IFS, with approach and departure angles less than 20 degrees.
Ford, GM, and all the import makers, have fallen victim to the market pressures of the masses and have ceased to produce any true off-road vehicles in North America. Jeep is the last one to offer a true hard core off-road machine in North America. But with the exception of the Wrangler, even all their other models have been watered down to some lame excuse for an off-road vehicle. In Canada and the USA its all about less responsibility and more image, more bling and less of the real thing. Vehicles like the Honda CR-V and Toyota Rav-4. should not even exist. There is really no point to them at all. They are completely useless off-road and their on pavement performance manners are among the worst out there.
Where did you hear that the 2007 will have a "diesel" option which will be sold in the USA and Canada??
If there is one thing that Jeep has shown us its that they are willing to dedicate at least one model to the nich hard core off-road market here in Canada and the USA.
I think if I couldn’t get the new Wrangler with a diesel I’d have to rip that V6 out, throw it in the trash, and bolt a 4.0L I6 in.
I remember somebody was showing off his LC-78 diesel with fiber top and when he engaged the winch, he used the throttle to control the speed of the spooling. I don't remember if theres a winch option for the gas version. But the ride is very nice compared to the older LC-70 series. Handling is typical pushrod steering. Sloppy, but hey, thats what sports cars are for.
The diesel in the LC-70series with the turbo is very quick on its feet but it kinda fades away after 4000rpm. Theres two leds on the dash, red and green. Green = spooling healthy and red = maxed out.
I'd say more like XTerra, Hummer H3, and 07 Wrangler Unlimited 4dr. The Liberty is not in the same league.
Edmund's compares the FJ to the Liberty and also the Honda Element. The Wrangler would be a different category. Toyota has put a lot of effort in off road publications pertaining to the FJ. It will be interesting to see how it is accepted and how it stacks up in off road competition. If it wins a couple hill climbs at Glamis or Buttercup it will be accepted by the off road fraternity. Toyota had the FJ out to Glamis and did some testing and photo shoots. They must be interested in selling to the segment that they lost years ago.
I'm not the least surprised by the off-road ability. Take a look at some of the videos on the Toyota FJ Trail Rides site... pretty impressive! They should use those in some adds.
Hey 4 X 4... I guess a couple of FJ's are actually going off road and impressing people? Surprised?