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Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4 or Subaru Forester?
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Comments
1. Power (i currently have a 1/2 ton v-8 stick short bed 4x4 and just like having a bit of power. Its not real fast but i love the torque)
2. wagon type body (need to have something approaching the cargo capacity of the p/u)
3. stick (replace a stick with a stick)
4. AWD (have 4x4 now and wont go back to FWD as with my old civic)
To me that leaves the WRX wagon, Forester XT, and Outback XT (i think they come in stick)
not much out else out there that meets those requirements. any suggestions?
Regards,
Kyle
Maybe you could drink less of the kool-aid, juice? :P
You introduced fixation into the conversation.
You appear to be fixated on having the last word.
Go ahead, have it.
I'm done on this board.
The forums have been great for researching vehicles, but I can't find a good site to compare road noise levels
2007 CR-V
Db @ Idle: 40.7
Db @ Full Throttle: 72.5
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 67.1
2006 RAV4 V6
Db @ Idle: 42
Db @ Full Throttle: 76
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 70
2003 Forester (old review!)
Db @ Idle: 72 (gotta be a typo)
Db @ Full Throttle: 80
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 80
The 07 Forester blurb there does say "too much road noise at highway speeds" under the ratings tab. Nothing about the idle.
None of these will get you a significant increase from the 20 MPG you are already getting. The CR-V stick can get 26 mpg in city mode, but they don't sell stick anymore. I have been getting 30 mpg on highway if I drove at or 10 mph above speed limit, but that was on pure gasoline with 2 oz of Acetone. The new Ethanol laces fuels yield very low mpg ratings, 27 mpg highway at most.
I don't know about the 2003, but the new Oddysey uses noise cancellation electronics in the radio to make the cabin quiet, same technology as noise cancellation headphones, which generate anti-frequencies.
-Frank
Actually, they retrofit to the earlier models, and that is the appropriate fix. Sounds like your dealer didn't have this information, as that problem should have been addressed at your first visit.
Of course the V6 blows away your 2000 model, but we should be comparing the V6 to the XT turbo engine, not yours.
Cheers. :shades:
-juice
They did it in past comparos of small SUVs. At the time, the Forester was the most quiet, but it's been a while, and they are due for an update/new comparo.
I like comparos because you know they're measuring the noise levels on the same roads, and even on the same day.
Not to mention the dB scale is rather quirky when it comes to representing loudness. At least one magazine promised to switch to sones (see here for more info), but I don't recall which rag it was or whether or not they actually made the switch.
When I sat in the back, I noticed lots of noise, it seemed a bit loud.
Later they let me drive it, since we're considering vans, and I didn't notice this as much.
I wonder if it's the seating position itself, or perhaps the ANC (active noise cancellation) it tuned with the driver's seat position in mind.
Any how, that's something instruments will simply not capture. Nothing like a test drive.
some people hardly notice road noise made by tires, but wind noise will drive them crazy. that is why i feel a test drive would tell you a lot more than a magazine.
I like the Mazda5 but they failed to execute in a few key areas (no 7 seat model, no seat back trays from the JDM model, engine could have more power).
That would make a nice compact people mover.
Don't recall that commercial, but there's a diplomat who has a kid going to my son's preschool, and he has a brand new JDM Odyssey. I'll try to snap a pic next to it next time I see it.
I kinda like those, they're more futuristic looking and make the US Ody seem a bit bland and boxy.
Greener on the other side of the fence, I know...
Check out this Blog for Subaru's possible entry in this segment:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2657
I would not be surprised if that photochop is actually based on an existing Honda, it seems so familiar.
Then we tested V6 model and that had some major pep. But the seats weren't as comfy and roomy and the interior was lamost primitive. I had to stop looking at gear shift when I changed gears so I wouldn't goof. lol... Then we read a few reviews from consumers complaining about V6 engine so we lost confidence and began seriously looking at CRV. I really thought I was going to own a toyota and here I sit with a gorgeous CRV
james
Where did you read about this. I've had mine for a year now and have absolutly problems at all. The new 3.5 v6 has won design awards, has goobs of power, gets unbelievable gas mileage, and is smooth as silk. I think somebody's pulling your leg. I will grant you that the base RAV's interior is pretty sparten but the limited is a vast improvement over the base.
On the RAV4 boards there have been a few complaints about hesitation, but even then it affects more 4 cylinder models than V6s.
Where'd you read about V6 problems? :confuse:
I had a choice between the Rav and the CRV, ending up with the CRV. But both cars excellent enough to make it a really tough choice down to the wire for us! lemme see if I can find that forum...okay, it was the yahoo forum.
Reading them again, there were few complaints, but maybe less than a handful on engine noise, transmission probs and slightly less pep on the engine.
Still in all, I would not have been disappointed buying anyone of those two cars. Go ahead and check out yahoo forums. Those problems may never occur for you, but I am paranoid enough to think I'd rtaher keep my eyes and ears out for everything and nip any problems in the bud!
My best to you with your car!
Toyota has sludge issues with the 3.0l V6, but as far as I know the 3.3l was pretty bullet-proof. The 3.5l is too new to say, but we haven't seen many complaints on Edmunds. I think the Avalon and Camry get more complaints than the RAV4 does.
Cheers. :shades:
Probably because it aired in Japan.
Honda had a JDM Ody here in the states while they were filming the commercial. However, the car was never intended to be sold here. They were just using our city street as a backdrop to make a film.
I'm suggesting that the Stream sighting could be a similar story. Honda may have the Stream here so they can perform tests. This is probably much easier than trying to hide a test vehicle on the very busy streets of Japan.
As for the Subie van, I've been a long time proponent of Subaru building a minivan.
Their 2.5L boxer is a better mill for a micro-van than the 2.3L used in the Mazda5. However, I think a small van like that would encroach on sales of other Subarus. Besides, they need more mainstream offerings to support sales of all these niche products.
It would be wiser to go full-size using the Tribeca platform. Subaru has always been good with safety, carving out interior space from a small package, and they have a reputation for practicality. These are all good things as far as minivan buyers are concerned.
Perhaps, but it doesn't make it any less of a problem for those experiencing one!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
It would be wiser to go full-size using the Tribeca platform.
I agree 100%.
Bob
We're discussing this in other threads, and I guess they could do a lot of things:
* a long wheelbase Forester with 3 rows (RAV4 does this)
* a Mazda5 sized entry based on the new 104" Impreza chassis
* base it on the Tribeca
The last option would be the most expensive, though.
RAV4 is sold as a short wheelbase model in Europe, no 3rd row offered. We only get the long wheelbase version.
Given Toyota owns a chunk of FHI (and that should go up soon), they may not want the Forester overlapping with the RAV4, so that seems unlikely.
I mean, the market just demands that. The Odyssey costs less than an equivalent Pilot. Even comparing FWD models.
Can Subaru offer one for, say, $2000 less than a Tribeca? They'd have to de-content it quite a bit.
The Impreza/Forester platform is probably too narrow for a big van, so it would have to be Mazda5 sized.
I think Subaru offering a minivan off their smaller platforms would be a mistake. The audience for that type of vehicle is MUCH smaller than those who want full-size minivans. My guess is the overwhelming amount of minivan sales are in vehicles $30K and above. Only for the Koreans, might that not be true—and if so, it won't be for long, as their prices keep rising.
Bob
The bigger issue is this: Could they sell it in Europe, Asia, etc.? That's where the smaller minivan makes sense—and that could well be the determining factor, as Subaru almost always makes "world" vehicles for their core products, which this would be.
If it's a North America-only model, then I say fullsize is the way to go. Otherwise they may be forced to go smaller, as they likely can't do a North America-speciifc and Euro-specific models. Maybe they could do a LWB and SWB of the same minivan, one for each market?
Bob
It's like Mercedes, with the ML350 and the R350. The R ended up costing a lot more. That seriously limited sales.
If they only sell a few of them, and top it off it's only sold in the US, that would kill any hope for profitability.
Remember something - Subaru sells more cars in Japan than it does in the US. Should they build a van for the US only? The van segment continues to shrink.
A Subaru5 (Subaru's version of the Mazda5) would be in a much smaller niche. It could be based on the cheaper Forester, and use a fuel efficient 2.5l to help them meet future CAFE standards.
The other thing is the current crop of minivans from Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai/Kia are very "mature", i.e. the formula is pretty much nailed down and Subaru could not compete with a quirky entry. It would have to match all of those feature for feature, and offer AWD on top of it all.
Imagine how much that would cost. List would be $35-40k.
That's my concern.
Yet another - they don't have as much production capacity at SIA now that Toyota has moved in. I believe they have more flexible capacity in Gunma, Japan.
The only way they would make it cheaper than the Tribeca, would be for them to use the 2.5i engine, which I think would be a mistake—unless it were a Mazda5-sized vehicle (which I think is wrong for the American market).
Having said that, it may very well be a smaller vehicle, simply because (as I stated) Subaru most likely will make it a vehicle to be sold in many markets. That usually means a smaller vehicle. Then again, maybe not, as the Tribeca is now sold in most if not all markets outside the US.
Bob
So I ask you this: if you had a choice of buying a Forester-based minivan or an AWD Sienna LE for $27,335 ($31,344 MSRP), which would you buy?
As a point of reference here's the price of a 7-passenger base Tribeca at FitzMall: $30,637 FitzPrice = $30,637 / $32,680 MSRP. Why would a minivan, based on the Tribeca, have to be more expensive than this?
Bob
Even if the stretch Forester has more content, it could potentially come in a lot cheaper than that $27k van. That's a $9000 spread. The Grand Forester, or Subaru5, or whatever you may want to call it, could start closer to $22k.
Mazda5s are a good value. They sell for $18-22k, and the upper range is with leather and GPS NAV. That Mazda offers a good $10k price advantage over similarly equipped vans from Honda and Toyota.
Also, the Mazda5 only costs a few grand more than the Mazda3 they're based on. Imagine the same super-sizing from an Impreza or Forester.
I guess they could build a van priced the same as the Tribeca, though it would erode any profit margins because it would have to cost more to build. But that still doesn't resolve the capacity issue at SIA.
And even if they could, it would likely cannibalize other Subaru sales that are in the same price range.
You're talking about a Traviq-sized vehicle—and that flopped. Granted it didn't have core Subie DNA, but even so.
As to the fullsize minivan market being "mature," you could say the same thing about 4-door sedans, and that hasn't stopped carmakers from building them—over, and over again... The fullsize minivan formula is so good that there is room for more players—if the product is right. Nobody has made a "sport" minivan (we have sport sedans), so if I were Subaru, that's what I'd offer. Or offer a diesel minivan, something that the other brands don't offer—just don't try to butt heads directly with the major players. Offer something slightly different—but fullsize, because that's where most of the customers are—and that's where the most potential for sales are.
Bob
I'm talking a base model price. They would also likely have a Limited model that sold for a few grand more. Then a flagship LL Bean model with leather and maybe a turbo powertrain, still under $30k.
I mean, they can sell an AWD Impreza 2.5i for $16k, and it would have the same basic powertrain as the base model.
Traviq flopped in Japan, sure, but so did almost every other GM import sold there.
I'm shopping for a people mover now, and while a reasonable amount of reserve power and torque is needed, I'm not looking for a "Sport" minivan. It would be too small a niche, even for Subaru.
Also, at the same price as a Tribeca, it would basically kill the 5+2 model Tribeca. You may as well cancel that model, as the sport van would cannibalize it completely.
If Subaru comes out with a vehicle as you've described I bet it will be a so-so seller at best. That's been the history of all small minivans, and I don't see that changing dramatically.
Having said all that, I suspect Subaru will likely follow a plan more closely aligned to what you have proposed, than to what I have proposed. Why do I say that? They've got a long history of making somewhat questionable product decisions. Maybe it will work for them like the Outback and WRX did. Then again maybe it won't, like the BRAT, Baja, v1.0 Tribeca and SVX didn't.
Bob
Maybe they will prove me wrong, but I see something like this drawing below (minus the air plane front and perhaps a tad bigger) making it to market globally, with few US sales:
Maybe this is what the Forester evolves into? I could buy that idea—so long as they keep the CUV aspect. It won't attract many "traditional" minivan customers though.
Bottom line: Whatever Subaru does it better leap-frog the competition, and not just play catch-up.
Bob
I believe they can leap frog the Mazda5 and Kia Rondo for a still-reasonable cost.
I do not think they can leapfrog the Odyssey and Sienna and stay within a price range suitable for most people that walk into Subaru dealerships.
I can see it leap-froging the 7-seat RAV4, by giving it a real 3rd-row rear seat to seat adults. If they can't give it an adult-friendly 3rd-row seat, it will be just another marketing mistake.
Bob
For whatever reason (perception?), you can charge more for an SUV than you can for a minivan. Pilot costs more than the Ody, Highlander costs more than the Sienna.
Vans just get a bad rap.
But SUVs tend to be more than vans for two reasons: 1) they have AWD and 2) people in the US will pay more for the image/look.
The trick for Subaru would be to keep AWD and not exceed the price point of the 2WD competition. The higher vehicles get in the market, the more elbow room for price manipulation. The extra cost of AWD (probably a $2K item) at $20K is a 10% price boost. At $30K, the same AWD is only a 6.6% hindrance. Plus, at $30K, they have lots of other places where they might cut costs, or add hardware to boost the profit margins.
Here's my chop of a Grand Forester. The stretch would have to be longer than this, but just to have an idea...
Juice: do you still have an inside track with the Cherry Hill crowd? i wonder what they have to say about a revised Forester.
Kyle
So info is basically non-existant for the 09 Forester.
Major things to look forward to are the longer wheelbase (about 104" at least) and the ultra-compact rear suspension. The WRX' cargo area is much wider and the strut towers are far less intrusive. The 09 Forester should therefore have a HUGE cargo area. :shades:
It'll finally get factory GPS, too. Check out the WRX to get an idea of what the interior will look like, much improved IMO.
Still, I'd like to see it offered in 2 wheelbase lengths with a 3rd row option on the longer one. I doubt it'll happen, but I can dream.