Stories from the Sales Frontlines

sterlingdog · February 2009

Thanks. Speaking of Crown Vics, I saw a late '70's model today on my way to the grocery store. This elderly lady was just driving along as pretty as you please. Her Crown Vic looked in good shape. Bet she bought it new and has kept in the garage all of these years.

Richard

bksward · February 2009

Thanks. Speaking of Crown Vics, I saw a late '70's model today on my way to the grocery store. This elderly lady was just driving along as pretty as you please. Her Crown Vic looked in good shape. Bet she bought it new and has kept in the garage all of these years.

Was the Crown Vic a late 70s model or was the driver in her late 70s?

I parked next to an absolutely pristine looking Caddy Brougham at Lowes today... White with Dark Blue Leather...what was interesting was the buttons on the upholstery of the seats. It was the body style that they had in the mid-80s. When did they stop making those things?

sterlingdog · February 2009

The Crown Vic looked late '70's, and she looked late '90's.

Don't know when they quit making the Brougham. One of the guys here can tell us...probably jmonroe. He's old enough to remember. :P

Richard

stickguy · February 2009

I saw a couple of note in NJ today.

1st was a white one. The notable part? It had a trunk lip spoiler! Hey, gotta keep the back end planted at 120.

2nd was a new looking LS. Gorgeous looking burgandy color (don't know why anyone would rather have black!

Anyway, notablw part (maybe not on this car) was driving oddly slow, stopping at random, and trying to make a left when the road went right. Finally passed it when it pulled into a parking lot to turn around.

Driven by an obviously lost little man with thick glasses. At least 80. And en even more tiny old women. These smurfs looked lost in that huge car.

I also sat in one at the philly car show (it really was behind a backdrop, right in front of the bathroom. Guess they jnew where the target market spends a lot of time!) Certainly roomy, and loaded for the money, but man, it was like sitting on my sofa.

cdnpinhead · February 2009

God's waiting room.

Arizona has lots of "older" people, but Florida and other states have been in the running for a long time.

Buicks are the tell, generally --large Ford products are a close second.

The good news is that these cars generally run forever with few problems, plus which, in a collision they'll win most of the time, so long as commercial trucks aren't involved.

driver100 · February 2009

This reminds me of one of my favorite movies....Glen Gary.....

Love that movie and those lines too. You have to be a salesperson to appreciate it.

jmonroe · February 2009

...with my post clutched in your hand and demanding, at least, the same price!

Heck, you will have the written word right there in black and white so I think they will honor the price !!

The more I think about doing that the more I like the idea. I'd love to see the look on a salesman's/sales manager's face with those numbers in BOLD ($28,500) but they'd take me for a stroke and then I'd have lost credibility so I better not do that. Maybe I could get one of my son's to do it. Then I could come rushing in and say $38,500; then I'd look like a real buyer. Now that might work.

jmonroe

jmonroe · February 2009

From personal experience: Land Rover, Audi, Mercedes, BMW.

3 luxury to consider:
Lexus
Acura
Infiniti
BMW with warranty
MB with tons of warranty

Thanks for the reply 'boom'.

That's about the way I would have picked them. The Euro's and Land Rover don't seem to be anyone's favorite once they're out of warranty. Maybe they've acquired a bad rap thats stuck as a result of well earned previous woes and it will take a while to climb out of that hole. Almost reminds me of what Hyundai is going through.

jmonroe

sterlingdog · February 2009

"...but man, it was like sitting on my sofa."

Don't you enjoy sitting on your sofa? :P That's one of the things that I like about them, that and all of the luxury features for that price. That's funny that the car show had it parked near the rest rooms. Talk about creative marketing.

Richard

sterlingdog · February 2009

I agree that they would probably win in a collision. Also, I never hear that people have many problems with them. I think that you're right about the Buicks. We live in a large retirement area. I see many more Buicks here than I do GM's. Actually, people drive golf carts as much as they do their cars. Thank goodness there is a hard and fast rule here. Golf carts must move over and allow cars to pass. You can get a nice golf cart for $3K. A good used one is about $1,500. They come in lots of colors. Mine is black with a camel interior. :P

Richard

jimbres · March 2009

Consumer Reports' latest annual car issue, which arrived in yesterday's mail & which should hit news stands shortly, includes the '07 TC & the '07 GM in their list of reliable used cars. The '08 GM is on their list of used cars to avoid because of hardware problems reported by current owners.

CR doesn't much like either model as a new car. Their verdict on the GM: "...outdated, with a stiff ride & noisy engine that returned just 16 mpg overall. Handling is safe enough but feels ungainly...soft bench seat lacks support...rear seat isn't as roomy as you'd expect...car gets a marginal [rating] in the IIHS side-crash test." They prefer either the Mercury Sable or the Ford Taurus to the GM.

About the '09 TC they write: "...not up to luxury car standards. Handling is rather clumsy but secure. The 4.6 liter V8 is too noisy for a luxury car & isn't as refined as the V8 in the Cadillac DTS...Curtain air bags & stability control are not available, demonstrating the car's age. The Town Car scores too low to be recommended."

houdini1 · March 2009

Joking aside, the Genesis is a terrific car. Keep us posted on how it goes.

cracovian · March 2009

This whole Genesis hoopla puzzles me a lot... Why would anyone get this overpriced Korean car over the Pontiac G8 GT for example (V8 for less than 30K)? I mean dropping almost $40K on the Huyndai, so you can pretend you're driving the Benz? I believe it's mainly the marketing and ad machine working (though that job assurance program's been working well for them.) I only saw a handful on the road and I hope it stays this way...

sterlingdog · March 2009

Jim, thanks so much for sharing that latest information on the TC and the GM. I must say that I was surprised and disappointed. I assume that the comments made referred to the LS model of the GM. I wonder what consumers meant about the "hardware" problems. Do you think that they were referring to interior problems with the dash or wood trim? It was interesting to hear about the lack of the soft bench support. When I tried it out, I thought that the lumbar adjustment was great for the comfort and support. Also, I don't understand the mpg statement. I've heard people say that they got from 26-30mpg on the open road. I have to wonder if CR was talking about city driving. I do agree with the comment about the rear seat room not being as good as you would expect. I think that the large trunk space took away from that leg room. I was also surprised to hear that the engine was noisy. I've driven two of them in the road tests and thought how quiet they sounded.

I'm glad that you mentioned the reliability of the '07's. There was one just like I wanted in South Carolina, but I hesitated to go with an '07. Perhaps it needs a more serious look. Also, I tried out an '08 TC Friday. I just can't see paying twice the money for a TC. The GM is built on the same old platform as the TC and has almost all of the same luxury features. Why pay an extra $15K for the hood ornament?

Thanks again for sending that information along. Research TO BE CONTINUED.

Richard

driver100 · March 2009

The G8 is worthy of consideration, this review by Edmunds is quite favorable;

G8

The problem is, the 6 doesn't get a great review, and not many people will be opting for an 8 these days...unless they own a share in an oil company.

Also, there's perception. Pontiac has lost their reputation and will have to rebuild it, and it should have been done with the 6 cyl. not the 8 - that will mean little to most buyers.

Also, IMHO the styling is too over the top Pontiac. Although it is better than recent models it certainly doesn't have the classic lines of an MB, Audi, BMW, Lexus, etc.

And the biggest problem is will you be buying an orphan car...will GM be around to honor the warranty etc.

Nothing wrong with the Genesis. The reviews are good and it represents great value. Cost wise, I would compare it to an Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, or MB C Class and see if you prefer the extra luxury compared to the superior handling of the latter 3 cars. Not saying one choice is better than the other, it's just what one person prefers.

isellhondas · March 2009

We have been burned on Land Rovers so many times that if we take one in as a trade, our GM makes us wholesale it UNLESS it is under warranty.

Same applies to Volkswagens. Just too many problems.

isellhondas · March 2009

I'm willing to bet that has been the case with the other Korean cars that the Genesis will have the same dismal resale values.

Improved? Very much so but still Korean.

driver100 · March 2009

Richard, I found this review to be one of the most helpful, it gets down to the nitty gritty. I am also not sure if the GM comes with a passenger side airbag and I am pretty sure it doesn't have side curtain airbags, if those things matter to you.
See the review at;

2008 GM

Here's the hi-lites;

Likes:
Well-proven, reliable design
Ridiculously huge trunk
Passes safety tests without modern equipment
Dislikes:
Ancient mechanical layout
Lost-in-the-past styling
Not fit for curvy roads
Takes up more parking space than many huge SUVs
Awful driving position and unsupportive seats

I still see a lot of them and they look like something out of the 70s or 80s so there is the nostalgia factor, and the fact you are getting a lot of car and luxury for the price. One of our staff bought a 2005 Ford 500 for about $6000 and it is probably a far superior car...with lots of room, and a lot more modern technology.

driver100 · March 2009

We have been burned on Land Rovers so many times that if we take one in as a trade, our GM makes us wholesale it UNLESS it is under warranty.

Any other models that stand out as having problems besides VW. and Land Rovers?

jimbres · March 2009

"Body hardware" is a catch-all phrase that covers external moving parts, such as door handles, trunk & hood latches, etc.

I must say that I share CR's dim view of the GM & LS. The cynic in me suspects that Ford long ago stopped investing in these cars because it figured that the target demographic was too unsophisticated to notice. Just the absence of side-curtain air bags - even as an option - would be enough to kill any interest that I might have. Are you sure that a drunk running a red light will never hit you?

If you want a large American sedan, why not look at the Ford Taurus / Mercury Sable? Compare the Sable's safety features:

Mercury Sable

to the GM's:

Mercury Grand Marquis

According to CR, the Sable is roomier, faster, & more fuel efficient. It also handles better & even has a lower MSRP than the GM.

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...I wonder what consumers meant about the "hardware" problems..."

That means it is an American car. CR considers that a fatal flaw. Unless it is a Honda. Then it could burst into flames and CR would give it high marks for "excellent heater".

jimbres · March 2009

Yeah, CR does love their Hondas - I've been a subscriber since CR first tested - & gushed over - an Accord back in '76 - but both the Ford Taurus & the Mercury Sable made their current list of recommended new cars while the Grand Marquis & Town Car did not. That should tell you something.

On the subject of cars that burst into flames: one of our county police officers died a few days ago when his Crown Vic cruiser burst into flames after a drunk plowed into it. It seems that this isn't the 1st time that a law enforcement officer driving a Crown Vic has been killed or injured by a gas tank fire following a collision. Some jurisdictions have modified the Crown Vics in their fleets to reduce the chances of a fire.

verdugo · March 2009

That was too funny old farmer. I cancelled by subscription to CR because of their bias for japanese cars/against american cars. Their recent change of heart on Toyota came too little, too late for me. If I can't trust them to be unbiased, there's no point in paying for their views.

isellhondas · March 2009

Troublesome cars?

Anything European.

Audis and Volvos are high on that list of troublesome cars.

BMW's not so much. Just expensive when something does break.

isellhondas · March 2009

What get's me about CR is how they rate different models when it comes to reliability.

I remember a few years ago, they gave a certain year Accord a black dot in the "brakes" catagory. The year before and the year after, they got a solid red circle.

Nothing changed between those years. Same brakes, same materials etc.

Go figure that one?

sterlingdog · March 2009

Thanks for that review. To answer your question, passenger side airbags only come on the LS as an extra option. IMHO, they should be standard.

Richard

sterlingdog · March 2009

I have looked at the Taurus and the Sable. I just don't like the exterior design, and they don't "feel" like a large car to me. One thing that I have noticed from recent posts is this: No vehicle, foreign or domestic, appears to be sacred. There are pros and cons for each one. I guess the best thing is do the research, find your best price, and purchase what you like. Much of it is a crap shoot at best.

Richard

verdugo · March 2009

they don't "feel" like a large car to me.

My dad had a 2006 Ford Fivehundre. I can tell you it's huge.

jmonroe · March 2009

No vehicle, foreign or domestic, appears to be sacred. There are pros and cons for each one.

I get CR (haven't read this new issue yet. It's on the couch so when I hang up here I guess I should take a peek) but I just use it along with any info I have obtained personally and from people I know and trust.

I heard on the local radio talk show driving home on Friday that CR rated one of the higher end Lexus models out of sight with something like 99 plus. Even if they're off by a few points and I were looking at something in that price range, that would be good enough for me.

I think I also heard that one of the Chevy SUV's/trucks did pretty good too. That's good to hear about one of the BIg 3 guys.

Yeah, I think I gotta go do some reading.

jmonroe

jimbres · March 2009

I heard on the local radio talk show driving home on Friday that CR rated one of the higher end Lexus models out of sight with something like 99 plus.

That's right - the LS 460 sedan grabbed the honors for "Best Overall Vehicle", scoring 99 out of a possible 100. The price is far too rich for my blood, but I might consider a used LS 460 in a few years.

The more reasonably priced Infiniti M35x tied for 2nd place with the BMW 135i, with a score of 97. The top-ranked American car was the Corvette Z06, which scored 92 to tie for 6th with the Hyundai Genesis.

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...purchase what you like..."

BINGO!

imidazol97 · March 2009

>You won't believe what my wife pays her---$15 per hour.

Then you add on the social security and insurance for her...

Our previous housekeeper had a Focus. She was really good. We miss her.

imidazol97 · March 2009

CR has trouble getting real world mileage on cars they aren't interested in. When the laCrosse came out with the same 3800 that gives 33 interstate on good trips in my heavier leSabre, they get something like 18 overall on a loop.

sterlingdog · March 2009

Interesting point. I wondered about that mpg.

Richard

explorerx4 · March 2009

just remember to research the maintenance costs for a lexus before you buy one.

fezo · March 2009

That point that was made about the trooper dying from a Crown Vic explosion is important. It was a known defect in the Crown Vic/GM. The gas tank wasn't properly shielded to take a rear hit.

Anyoen know if that was corrected? As a of a couple of years ago it wasn't.

jimbres · March 2009

just remember to research the maintenance costs for a lexus before you buy one.

Repair costs for my wife's 1st Lexus, which she drove for 8 years, totaled $500.

You probably won't be surprised to learn that she bought another one.

jimbres · March 2009

There's some reason to believe that a design defect - poor fuel tank placement - is responsible for these fires, & our county PBA is considering a civil suit against Ford.

In fairness to Ford, though, it should be noted that after-market modifications to these cars may have been contributing factors. Also, so many law enforcement agencies use the Crown Vic - the old RWD Caprice, discontinued over 10 years ago, was its only serious competitor in that market - that the number of collision-related fuel tank fires may not be statistically significant.

After a number of fatal fires in the early 2000s, Ford developed a "fire suppression system", which is a $3500 option on Crown Vics built for police work & which can be retrofitted to older cars. I don't know if my county's cars are equipped with this.

sterlingdog · March 2009

It has been a rough day for the Grand Marquis---two bad surveys and an exploding gas tank. This is no way to encourage me to pull the trigger.

Richard

driver100 · March 2009

This is no way to encourage me to pull the trigger.

If you do pull the trigger, just don't do it too close to a Grand Marquis. :surprise:

driver100 · March 2009

It has been a rough day for the Grand Marquis

To be fair, many reviews for the Grand Marquis de Sade were actually favorable...more good reviews than bad. They like that they are fairly simple to repair, that the design is so old most of the problems have been resolved, it is pretty plush for the price. I can see why you like them, but some of those negative reviews have very important facts, that should be considered. Maybe a used Chrysler 300 would be a good substitute...it has loose steering, plush sofa seats, poor gas mileage, poor cornering, a 60's feel, poor seating position, all the features you are looking for.

sterlingdog · March 2009

Well, if the Chrysler 300 is like that, why don't I just get the real thing? :P

BTW, if you ever purchase a home in the South, DON'T ever get a heat pump. They just can't take the snow and below 30 degree temperatures. My thermostat is set on 80 to get it to 68 degrees. Good thing that I have gas logs in the family room.

Richard

fezo · March 2009

as long as richard doesn't try to play state trooper on the interstate and pull other cars over for a grammar check, i think he will be ok.

True enough, but can we count on him not doing that?

roadburner · March 2009

BTW, if you ever purchase a home in the South, DON'T ever get a heat pump. They just can't take the snow and below 30 degree temperatures. My thermostat is set on 80 to get it to 68 degrees. Good thing that I have gas logs in the family room.

Where we live our only choice is a heat pump. I'd prefer gas, but it would cost a bundle to run a line to our house. That said, our house has a Trane unit that was installed in the mid 1980s and it does a pretty decent job of dealing with the extremes of Kentucky weather. We keep the thermostat set at 68F and the room temperature of the house might dip to 65F when the outdoor temperatures drop to 10F or below. And our monthly electric bill ranges from $150-$200.

sterlingdog · March 2009

You and I have the same electric bill, but I wish that our 2004 Lennox heat pump worked better. It was here when we bought and remodeled the home in '07. It is our first heat pump. We're used to having gas packs. Since I posted earlier, it has warmed up now. Our service guy says that it just does this way in really cold weather. You've really gotten the "goodie" out of yours since you've had it for 20 years.

To Stay On Topic: My Explorer and Chrysler have really good heaters.

Richard

houdini1 · March 2009

Richard, our house has an electric heat pump and a gas furnace The heat pump is set up to run only when the outside temp is above about 35 degrees. Anything below that the gas furnace kicks in. Works great this way.

Heat pumps just do not work well when it is fairly cold. Very inefficient and costly because they have to run continuously. The heat pump does a great job of cooling in the summer though.

I bet you could add on a small furnace and set it up this way for very little. Just a thought.

Don't give up on that GM.

graphicguy · March 2009

jmonroe.....got a call this a.m. from the local Hyundai dealer. That's the downside of signing up for the "freebies" at car shows.....they've got your contact info.

As I explained to the Hyundai sales person, I wasn't in the market. He invited me for a Genesis test drive, anyway. I may, or may not do it. But, to get the free "gas card" they are giving away, I have to go to the dealership.

Talking to him for a bit, he said he's got V6 and V8 demos. One, in the color you like.....burgandy. it's a V6 but has the tech package.....2K miles. He didn't give me specific numbers but did say it would sell for "under $30K". He also said a lease on the V6 with tech would be $420/mo +TTL. Don't know what the money factor is, or if there's a CAP reduction involved, but that sounded like a pretty good deal, if you're a lease person (I'm not).

imidazol97 · March 2009

>home in the South,

I thought you were in North Carolina.
Which part?

Heat pumps work great. Check your outside unit to see if it's covered with snow or ice (frost) on the vanes. I suspect your defrost is set to 90 minutes rather than 30 minutes or 1 hour and it's not defrosting often enough to operate more efficiently. AND it may not be properly sized for the house.

Mine works great down to 0 deg. F. Then the backup coils start kicking on more often. After a long period of cold soak that happens at a higher temperature around 10 deg. F. We hit negative 18 F. this last month--in Ohio.

imidazol97 · March 2009

>Heat pumps just do not work well when it is fairly cold.

They are designed for a certain amount of heat output. With the scroll compressors in quality heat pumps for a decade and more, the heat output stays fairly constant and efficient in terms of cost. The difference is the heat loss of the house increases with colder temperatures especially if it's leaky or not energy efficient in its insulation; then the heat pump output isn't enough unless it's greatly oversized for the nominal heating needs and the electric heat coils are added on with a 2nd thermostat bubble to provide extra BTUs.

The fan continually running helps prevent cold spots in the home that develope when a fan shuts off as with a gas furnace. But many people used to gas heat want to hear the system turn off. They also like to feel hotter air coming out of the vents while it's on. If you put a thermostat on the vent, the output may be 85 deg. but the moving air feels cooler.

wlbrown9 · March 2009

I lived with a heat pump in Memphis for 13 years...built in 1977. It ran a lot when the outside temp got low...but if the interior temp dropped a couple of degrees the auxilary resistance heat strips came on and ran like a standard electric forced air furnace...of course, much more expensive. The BAD was that during cold weather, until the aux. came on the heat pump circulated COOL air. When we had that house built in 1977, we could not get natural gas on that lot, so went with the more 'economical' heat pump. Also, it was 2 level house and unless you had the fan running all the time, it would be 5-8 degrees warmer upstairs.

We built another house in 1990-1991 and installed natural gas forced air furnace with standard AC. I like that much better...until the past couple of years when natural gas prices has increased, I believe the saving has been significant. Plus, the gas forced air actually blow WARM air that feels much better :-)

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Bill

"BTW, if you ever purchase a home in the South, DON'T ever get a heat pump. They just can't take the snow and below 30 degree temperatures. My thermostat is set on 80 to get it to 68 degrees. Good thing that I have gas logs in the family room.

Where we live our only choice is a heat pump. I'd prefer gas, but it would cost a bundle to run a line to our house. That said, our house has a Trane unit that was installed in the mid 1980s and it does a pretty decent job of dealing with the extremes of Kentucky weather. We keep the thermostat set at 68F and the room temperature of the house might dip to 65F when the outdoor temperatures drop to 10F or below. And our monthly electric bill ranges from $150-$200. "

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