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Ok I'll put in my two cents and say that if the 4 cylinder is enough to power the car (that being able to keep up with traffic from a stop light without undue stress on the engine and it can get up to highway speeds reasonably well) than that engine should be enough.
But you also have to consider if you will be towing anything, when you expect to sell the car. How much more is the 6 cylinder and how much extra power does it have (I would say that if the 6 cylinder only has 5-10% more power but costs 2-3K more is it really worth it?).
I think the 6 might last longer,
Unless the 4 cylinder revs high at highway speed there really should be no issue getting 200K miles or more out of it.
When all is said and done it really comes down to what you want and can afford.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I am just thinking the smaller engine has to work more to get up to speed and it works harder to maintain speed, and generally if engine components are stressed more or are operating faster the life of the engine will be shorter.
Also, our 99 Merc C Class had a 4 cylinder Kompressor engine which had lots of power when needed, but Mercedes dropped it for a 6 cyl because it was too rough and noisy for a Mercedes....so that must mean something.
I don't know the answer, just giving some ideas :confuse:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think the 4 had enough power and it has a 6 speed transmission, so that would have been ok. It just sounded odd, which surprised me.
actually I didn't drive either one, but my wife just liked that the 6 cyl was quieter.
when i had my focus, i had the 2.3 liter version of the same engine, now 2.5, and it did not have that odd sound.
between the nav and sync, there is going to be a lot to learn.
Generally speaking yes that is true. But how much shorter is the life? Are we talking about 250K life verses a 275K life? or a 200K verses 400K lifes? Plus will you keep it for the entire life of the engine?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Like all Hondas, road noise is a bit more than some other cars but I do think some of the reviewers make too big a deal out of this. I haven't heard any complaints.
The Prius and Insight both have advantages and they really are a different breed.
I am a big Toyota fan but I'll never like the mushy ride and soft handling they have compared to a Honda. I'll take a bit more noise instead. But, that's me.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Some people actually need an SUV. We take our Grand Cherokee off road, and when we go skiing the 4x4 and the extra ground clearance comes in really handy.
I remember two years ago in the parking lot of the ski resort, a bunch of cars got stuck in the snow, but people with SUV's didn't have any problems. :shades:
I had to look it up too. I thought it would be Jennie Lee because of the chorus mixtures. I am not sure I have heard the song influenced by J S Bach chorale....the site I saw for Jan and Dean brought back some memories.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Makes sense. I think the longest I have kept a car was 120k but most were only about 80k. One friend said at 80k things start to go. If you do all the repairs you have to do at 80k, you can hold onto the car for another 80k. In other words 80k is a good time to decide if you want to trade in your car, or start to pay for repairs, and keep driving it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That has been my impression of Hondas and Toyotas too. For performance and feel of the road I personally would choose a Honda , but for reliability and for lower repair bills, Toyota would seem to be the better choice. Guess there is usually a trade off. To get the better handling you need more complex parts and structure. That's why a bmw is going to be even more costly to own. But, hey, if I wanted simple and few repairs I'd get a wagon.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Both cars are pretty rugged but people who like to skimp on oil changes may find that Toyota V-6 engines can sludge up.
I don't blame this on the Toyota engine just poor maintenance on the part of the people who own them.
To make a rattle free car which runs for more than 10 years,,well I think it`s quite an achievement.
No excuse really for BMW to be unreliable and putting the blame on handling.Hondas handle well too but they are reliable also.For someone putting more than 35k on a car,,no excuse really to be unreliable.Well,Lexus is expensive,,but they dont compromise on their ride quality and be unreliable. :shades:
And BMW has had so many years of headstart,,got to appreciate Hyundai-- they are more reliable than BMW/Mercedes ,,,Go figure!!!
It`s like Dodge blaming its unreliability b`cos it`s a Hemi!! :lemon:
Reliability can`t be blamed on Complexity,,,All cars are more complex nowadays ,,,but some are more reliable than others inspite of being much more complex.How do u explain that?? :P
Hondas ,,as they age,,get very very noisy.I drove a 2003 Pilot with 99kmiles and it was so noisy--the more it ages the more noisy it gets.Even the Honda dealer agreed on this point ..Reliable --yes ; age well -- No.
An 02 Highlander with 120k miles rode better and aged much better..But for different folks,,,the handling is more important than the noise and rough ride,,,but it is a matter of personal preference really.
Again,,Not a daylight difference,,,but certainly a gap in favor of Toyota when it comes to reliability!!
I have older examples of both and there's no doubt in my case that the Toyotas take more and more costly repairs. To be fair the Toyotas were bought old while one Honda was bought new and the other was a CPO but I've had other new and used Hondas and they've been fine.
Yeah, the noise is an issue. I'm in the camp of I'd rather have a little noise and handling thatn mushy handling and no noise but there's no reason you shouldn't able to have a quiet car that handles great.
I definitely lean to the Hondas. I end up with a Toyota because at times they've made something that Honda doesn't - like a convertible with a back seat.
Paying attention to details and knowing how to use today's technology.
Like I've mentioned before...it's not who does it first, it's who knows how to improve on a design.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
This one comes down to complexity I think. Hyundai Sonata is a very reliable car.....but there is no new technology, and all the parts are old and have been tested.
A new bmw has way more electronics and components that can go wrong. The years of experience aren't as much of a factor in this instance.
The more gadgets and controls, the more that can go wrong. One reason some people didn't order power windows before they made them more reliable...lots of repairs.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I remember reading in the early 90s that all the Japanese car makers could do was copy. They couldn't actually invent anything new...in fact their greatest invention for the automobile was the change holder. Things have changed to some degree, but generally European and Asian car makers are bringing most of the new ideas and technology to the industry. The auto manufacturers that copy save on R&D, they can just find ways to copy....so back to the Sonata, a great copy, and at a lower price.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Again Lexus beat BMW/Merc at their own game when it started in 1990.Lexus took aim at the luxury market and now it leads in technological innovation.It is clearly the leader now and Bmw the follower.
But b`cos of complexity,,Lexus did not become unrelaible.Infact it`s more reliable than toyota.Some of the the electronics in Lexus are so complex but they rarely fail like BMW/Merc. :P
Again no excuse for incompetence or unreliability...Folks here are putting 40k for a car....So if Lexus can be so complex ,,plush riding ,quiet and yet be reliable,,,why can`t be BMW/Merc be great handling AND reliable...And some of the Mercedes` interior are so inferior compared to Lexus!! No excuse ,,really . :P
100k miles+ Lexuses are common,,but u dont see to many 100k+BMW/Merc.
So I asked her about the Titan truck--Where she bought it?How much ?etc etc
Then she told me the details-- It was an 07 Titan truck and she had leased it.The sale price as per her was 28k.So I asked what her monthly payments were..She replied that she financed for 36 months with 2000 down at 750/month and she was debating whether to buy it at the end of the lease. :shades:
I never lease cars,,so have no experience there,,,but I was calculating--- 750/month for 36 months is 27k.So 27k+2000 down = 29k to finance a 28k truck and she was thinking whether to buy it at lease ending as she was not sure of the residual value.But even the lowest estimate has to be 10-12k as the truck would have less than 36k miles and she was making sure of that!! :P
So am I correct to assume that she got really clubbed on the finance deal?I mean ,,for what she was paying,,she might have as well bought the truck instead of financing it :confuse:
And she drove the new Altima at the dealer and it was so smooooth!!!!! as per her.
Now she wanted the New Altima at the Titan lease end but her hubby insisted on buying out the truck.And she happy she just had 10 more payments on the financed truck.
Again,i am not sure of her credit and other details,,but irrespective of that if she was financed,her credit was probably good....And it was not like she was super rich b`cos she said it was tough making the payments ,,hence the need to make a choice down the line..
So did she get clubbed????
Yes you are. Congrats on your new ride.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Many say that BMW is more "fun" to drive but I'm not really looking for fun when I drive. I just want to get where I'm going in comfort and safety. Plenty other ways to have fun !
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think it also depends on your luck. My most unreliable vehicle was a Toyota and my best was a Chrysler. Go figure. :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Other than when someone made a left turn in front of me I never got rid of a car with less than 120K miles.
One friend said at 80k things start to go.
Well every car I have had had mo real issues until long past the 100K mark. Keep the regular maintence up and you should go well past 150K miles.
The one car I neglected the most went over 150K before I sold it to a friend who put almost 150K on it until he killed it doing something stupid. As far as I know nothing major went wrong.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It was USA technology that was used wisely and turned around on us because of the arrogance of the Big 3. For decades the Big 3 refused to use the technology that originated here. After all, they knew what we wanted in cars and they would be the ones to give it to us. Well, they gave it to us alright; just not the way we wanted it. It was our technology that has kept our freedom. We won wars because we had bigger and faster bullets, bombs and planes. It irks me no end that we wouldn’t use our own technology until it now seems like it’s too late.
We had it all and we let it get away. The space program kick started it. The electronics/communication industry, the medical field, the fabrication/robots industry, you name it, it stated there. Hell, if it weren’t for the advances in communications, people would still be freezing their asses off in phone booths in the winter. Then when they got back in their cars they wouldn’t have satellite radio nor would they be able to find their way without their nav system.
The auto manufacturers that copy save on R&D, they can just find ways to copy....so back to the Sonata, a great copy, and at a lower price.
It’s not so much copying as it is building on the available technology. And you’re right about the Sonata being a great car. Mrs. jmonroe still wants to know why I traded HER Sonata when I bought recently rather than trading my XG 350, since I was going to be the driver of the Genny.
I don’t like the thought of my grandchildren going through life reading packages that say made in *insert any country here but ours*. I’d like things to change if it really isn’t too late.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
One example is in the car industry. I was demonstrating to my sister and brother-in-law yesterday the creative way that my Chrysler convertible lowers and raises its top. We were discussing the fact that America knows and understands the virtues of technology, but do they understand the importance of producing a car that is efficient, well made, and self-sustaining? This can only happen when workers take pride in what they do. It can only happen when each worker sees their role as important to the overall result. Our country used to operate under those principles and, hopefully, will do so again. If not, then we will become a follower instead of a leader. The danger of becoming a follower is that you also tend to take your orders from others. I have to believe that we are better than this.
Richard
Well, I have a 1975 2002 with 198,000 miles on it, a 1995 3 Series with 115,000 miles and a 2004 X3 2.5 with 76,000 miles.
The engine and autobox in the '02 were rebuilt at 189,000 miles.
The 3er is my track rat and it has required a thermostat, a brake light switch, a few bulbs, engine drive belts, one set of pads and rotors, and four sets of tires... :P
The X3 had the passenger SRS sensor replaced under warranty and aside from that it has only needed one set of pads and rotors and four tires.
I sold my 1987 535is in 1992 with 135,000 on the clock. It is now in the hands of it's fifth owner, and at 325,000 miles it looks like it will finally need a new head gasket.
The 1997 528iA I sold in 2005 had covered 135,000 miles and it's current owner has almost hit 200,000 miles- and plans to run it to 300,000 miles at least- just as she did with her prior BMW, an E34 525i.
One more thing; just for giggles I went to AutoTrader and performed a nationwide search for all 1990-up BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz for sale with over 100,000 miles. Here are the results:
BMW- 4,260
Lexus- 2,909
Mercedes-Benz- 3,204
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I agree 100%. Another problem that I see is the growing governmental tendency to promote the "Nanny State" and protect people from the consequences of their own stupidity. I can't tell you how many times I sat in Small Claims Court(AKA "The Gong Show) and heard people admit to all kinds of moronic conduct- and then argue-and expect-that someone else should compensate them.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Amen to that one! I have always advocated that we teach our children accountability and responsibility. I think that we now need a refresher course for the adults.
Richard
You just have to watch Judge Judy to know there are a lot of people who are not responsible for there actions. Many times someone borrows a car and then crashes it. They somehow think they are not responsible because they were given the car to use.
A lot of people were drunk at the time and claim they weren't responsible for their actions. I always think this is one of our biggest faults in todays society - not taking responsibility. How stupid do you have to be to buy a coffee at McDonalds, spill it on yourself, and then sue for a million dollars.....and win!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I agree with you JM. I would love to buy an American made car....I just don't think I am getting as good a product for my money. If the cars were comparable in styling, comfort, handling, (I won't mention price because you can't find it at any price), then I would certainly buy American. I think the big problem is cost controls and profit come before pride. If you are too concerned with cost and you can't do proper R&D, then you will lose your enthusiasm. When they made those 1965 Pontiacs there was pride and engineering behind it.....now Pontiac is selling a G5 just to meet a low sticker price.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think I read that those hardtop convertible tops are made by two companies in the world. I have tried to look it up, but I imagine they are not American. I marvel at my hardtop convertible top whenever I put it up or down.....it is clever engineering. But, even though it is on a Sebring or Pontiac, I don't think they were invented or are bing made in the USA.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
BMW- 4,260
Lexus- 2,909
Mercedes-Benz- 3,204
Excellent report Roadburner. This is another urban myth that seems to never end. Must be circulated by Lexus dealers. Even in the surveys there isn't that much difference between the mid to top manufactures, and extra complaint or two out of 100,000s of thousands of owners. Like the Mercedes people say, as an example, they got a low rating for satisfaction because the new safer yet superior brake shoes they were using created more dust...so they lost points for that! Does that make sense! I see more 20 or 30 year old Mercedes on the road than anything else from the 80s, and there should be way more Chevs or Fords if you go buy the numbers.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Richard
So that`s not the point.The point is which one has fewer problems and better reliability.
In this Lexus trounces B/M.Absolutely no doubt on that.Have u heard any problems with Lexus compared to B/M?
And it is not an urban myth..An unreliable car is an unreliable car ,,period.B/M are moneypits when it comes to maintenance and hogs when it comes to repair..thats why lot of folks lease B/M but dont buy them unlike Lexus. :shades:
And Lexus proved it in 1990 :P
Also, Hondas don't get noiser as they get older. Honda has always been critized for road noise and I have to agree. They just don't seem to get it even though it comes up all of the time.
It not that bad and most people don't consider it to be a big problem.
Thanks,
Chintan
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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That works out to hundreds of millions. I guess that does make complaints quite rare! :P
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
See? Piece of junk.... :P
You say that Lexus "trounces" the German cars. Well, my wife is on her 2nd Lexus. We kept her 1st Lexus for 8 years - 4 years beyond the expiration of the factory warranty. During those 4 years, we spent $500 on repairs. So the Lexus cost us $700 less than the BMW, which means that we saved $14.58 per month.
So, yeah, the Lexus is cheaper to operate, but driving it is about as much fun as watching a late-night informercial on channel 3.
That works out to hundreds of millions. I guess that does make complaints quite rare! extra complaint or two out of 100,000s of thousands of owners
That otta be the last time ‘driver’ misplaces a decimal (or infers one) on you. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
So 3000 extra++13k residual buy out=16k.
So a total of 29k+16k=45k for a 25k truck..She got mightily clubbed!! :sick:
I don`t think she even realized how much she lost !!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile the dealership must have had a party for all employees--on the house !!
I never complained to be a mathematics expert :P
Also, I wrote that quickly while trying to get to work where I actually make some money for my astute comments.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That's less than 3 years each. One might infer that they just don't last all that long! :P :P
(j/k of course!)
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Or what people say their friend paid for a vehicle and that they want a same deal.
People always like to brag about how little they bought something for, yet they won't mention that maybe it was a lower model, they put money down, or had a trade.
Isell would agree with me as I think he mentioned a few times that on the prices paid forums some prices that people claimed to pay just don't make sense.
These numbers on the Titan some how just don't add up either. Either the price she paid is somehow off, or maybe they had negative equity built into the payments, I don't know.
And like I said before most people don't know how much they really owe on their vehicles, they only care about the monthly payments. The finance contracts get thrown in the glovebox, or in the desk drawer at home until trade in time comes around and all of a sudden there's a big surprise that they owe about $10k more than they thought they did! :surprise:
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
They are both great cars for many different reasons, and if you look hard enough, you will find some bad apples in the bunches.
For example, in 1996, I worked for a rental car company to supplement my college income. We had many different types of cars, including some Lexi and Bimmers. I cannot think of a single problem we ever had with a BMW, but the Lexi had horrible power windows (seriously, major electrical problems!) That said, I believe Lexus makes some of the finest cars on the planet, and when I am old and rich, I may just have one. In the meantime, I'd prefer a BMW for the simple fact that I like to shift my own gears and be a part of the driving experience.
However, since I do not own either, I cannot comment. The closest I had to a Lexus was a 1996 Toyota Corolla, which when I sold it had over 201K miles on it and required almost no maintenance the entire time I owned it (which was over 7 years). The closest I have ever had to a BMW is my Mazdaspeed 3, which roadburner will tell you is nothing like a BMW, but it is a performance car, so it has that in common. So far, no problems with that car, but it only has 5K miles on it.
For my money, I like to be involved and buy what I want. Consumer reports is helpful, but must be taken with a grain of salt, since the reviews are mainly from, well, consumers (most of whom do not take care of their cars and don't know squat about what they drive every day).
...that's all just my two cents.
BMW and Lexus appeal to different types of buyers. My guess would be that BMW owners know more about their cars and can do a lot more of their own maintenance than Lexus owners.
Maintenance costs and reliability are relative and all cars are much better than they used to be.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
How about, hey, can't we all just stay a little closer to on-topic? Very few people are interested in this brand war conversation, it doesn't belong here, and there are other places to hold the debate. Thank you.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Hey, I never said it was a bad car; it's just fun in a different sort of way!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive