Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Volkswagen Rabbit



  • jpmccormacjpmccormac Posts: 98
    Re: "A German car, built in Germany.... just has a better ring to it."

    WHERE a car is made has nothing to do with quality. The Rabbits built in Pennsylvania were generally considered to be very poor quality. The Golfs (including my own '96) built in Mexico were generally very good. What is important is the quality and training of the employees, commitment of management and quality of componenet suppliers.
  • amit3amit3 Posts: 5
    Its just the racist attitude that only white Germans are capable of producing quality cars and Mexicans are some how incapable of the same due somehow to their culture or inferior intellect. I can't believe people still think "German" built cars have some sort of quality edge. If at all, its the exact opposite.
  • phinneas519phinneas519 Posts: 115
    The other poster's comment isn't about racism. Generally speaking, vehicles assembled in countries with a low or lesser degree of industrialization tend to be of worse quality. VW outsourced work of the Rabbit and other lower-end models to Mexico in order to save money. The money saved often translates to corners cut in production or poorer employee training and supervision. In addition to that, they are also not paid as well (though in their country, that pay may be very good) which may lead to lackluster workforce morale. However, if Mexico had the resources other countries had available they would be able to produce more comparable goods. So in the end it's not a question of race but a question of allocated resources.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Do you have any factual basis for all of these opinions? I do think it is a subtle "racism" (I think that really isn't the right word, as german and mexican are not "races").

    My own idle speculation would be the Mexican workers are probably happy to have these good jobs. Who knows, maybe the Germans (and immigrant guest workers in Germany) have poor morale because VW would like to cut their pay or benefits or send their jobs elsewhere.

    Why would they need to cut corners at the Mexican plant, because they save money on labor costs? That makes absolutely no sense. If anything, that seems more likely to be something that would be done at the German plant to offset the high labor costs.

    How much of the assembly process is automated anyway? Do you think the machines care if they are in Germany or Mexico?

    The only significant problem so far with our, assembled in Mexico, Jetta was with the transmission...which is from Japan.
  • dc_driverdc_driver Posts: 712
    When VW first started producing the Golf and Jetta in Mexico there were many quality issues. In the early 2000's they turned it around and now Mexico meets or exceeds the quality of US workers. There is a Businessweek article that I read a few years ago regarding this, you should be able to Google it..

    I think it is a perception issue. People who buy VW think that they are purchasing a German made automobile. It really should not matter where the car is produced as long as it is produced with the same standards and quality from the German factory.

    I am definitely not a racist, but I'll admit I was surprised when I learned that my 99 Jetta VR6 was produced in Mexico not Germany. Only because I grew up thinking that VW=German made....
  • parkerjonparkerjon Posts: 14
    VW Canada are releasing the 4 Door GTI's a lot earlier than I was originally told.

    The base price is however $10,000 CDN more than the base 4 Door Rabbit = around $250 CDN more per month on a four year lease (including tax). I am also told the insurance is higher on the GTI's - and not solely on the price differential.

    Considering my Jetta 2.0T is only $100 CDN more per month than my 4 Door Rabbit = a good deal on the Jetta. (though I guess I should be comparing the GLI with the GTI)

    Other stuff:
    - 4th tank of gas = 25 MPG
    - Here's a racist comment for you about the auto manufacturing process: I hope that nobody with a hangover from sugar-laden German wines worked on my Rabbit as it may have prevented the seal around the windshield from curing properly
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Posts: 1,711
    Where are the new Rabbits built? Are they made in Mexico just like the Jettas, or over in Germany?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Posts: 2,363
    At the moment, all Golfs [GTI, "Rabbit"] are sourced for our market from Germany.

    All Jettas WORLDWIDE are coming out of the Mexico plant.

    "Quality" has several aspects: design engineering, production engineering, subcontractor assembly quality, and final assembly quality. The nationality of the workers on the line has just about absolutely NOTHING to do with the final product.

    Past issues in the Mexican plant have had to do with picking the wrong suppliers for the cars being built there, and taking too long to deal with the problems when they became evident. The new Jetta's assembly quality appears fine - whether VW has picked the right suppliers this time around is open to debate, since the cars haven't been out there on the road that long.

    VW doesn't have the management discipline of Toyota when it comes to moving their assembly lines outside of Germany, so it has taken longer [far too long] to get it right. But the issues are the same wherever the car is finally screwed together - what matters is how the company picked the suppliers for the major components, and how well they follow up on problems that develop. The language spoken in the plant parking lot doesn't much matter, one way or the other.
  • bpeachee1bpeachee1 Posts: 19
    to those who read WAY too much into a simple comment....
    My ONLY basis for saying I felt the German build might be better....
    Was the fact that early Mexcan built Jetta's had lot of quality issues...
    If the problem cars had been built in Germany...and the new Rabbit's built in Mexico...maybe I would have been excited that they were built in Mexico.

    Another example of poor early Mexico built vehicles was the Focus....
    Had a 2000, that was in the shop with recalls at least 5 times the first year.... it all has to do with experiences....
    nothing to do with "Race".
  • mikusmikus Posts: 109
    Just read the article about new Golf road test and decided to let the steam out.

    Ok, you were 20 in 1985 and liked your Rabbit. Now you are 40, are you supposed to drive a car named Rabbit? Are you supposed to drive it *again* if you drove it 20 years ago? Hardly These times have passed. So, Rabbit is not for 40-yr olds.

    If you are 20-25-30 now, then the name "Rabbit" tells you nothing, this car has always been Golf for you. Nice, respectable name for a respectable hatcback with slightly dull though classy styling and high-quality materials. Renaming it to Rabbit is stupid, the car is 200 pounds heavier than its predecessor and barely gets 30 mpg, it cannot hop. Oh I get it, it is an american rabbit. It eats hamburgers, not carrots.

    Rabbit? Oh come on. 7-yr olds do not buy cars. I will never buy a Golf christened Rabbit, ever.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    What is in a name?
    That which we call a Golf
    by any other name
    would smell as sweet.

    Or... you could always yank the little rabbit off the back and no one has to know. ;)

    Anyway, I always thought "Golf" was a silly name for a car. I mean, you don't see any cars named "hockey", or "basketball", or "la crosse". Oh. Never mind.
  • jwodaejwodae Posts: 11
    I think one good aspect about the name Rabbit is that when you say I want to take care of my Rabbit, it brings life in a car, vs. golf, or Accord, it is real a name of steel.

    It is nostalgic and it's a good name. The kids may not have driven a Rabbit themselves, but they may have ridden in them and thus have memories. I think it;s a great name.
  • mikusmikus Posts: 109
    > I mean, you don't see any cars named "hockey",
    > or "basketball", or "la crosse". Oh. Never mind.

    Yep, Buick has picked up the idea. How about Polo and Derby? Incidentally, both by VW. Derby is long gone, but Polo is still in production. Volvo Cross-Country too is kinda sports name.
  • zuma4zuma4 Posts: 11
    Transmission came from Japan and all the rest are being assembled and made in Wolfsburg. 1 to 99 ratio. Why do I know this? friend of mine is actually a car salesman of VW. He helped me processed my application for Golf in 2004 and now I decided to trade it in for the rabbit.

    Everytime I go visit the dealership I always examine the rabbit right even before the launhching date. most of the first batch are all coming from Germany and later edition will be coming from Brazil and Mexico. My freind literally showed me the inventory list of most modified Rabbit and they were all sold out!!! people already placed their reservation. That was why I was waiting 3 weeks for my rabbit because they had to order it from Germany! My car arrived at the dealership 2 days ago and I finally got it today!!

    what can I say about the rabbit that now I am one of those first owners?? actually I am very speechless. i really don't know what to say because I am really overwhelmed by this car.

    the total price of mine is 19890 dollars four door with sunroof and alloy wheels. original price is 21,310 but they gave me credits and bonuses because I only had 10k miles on my Golf Gls that I traded in plus I keep my payments on time.

    as a matter of fact the Rabbit doesn't come with "ESP" but mine is actually came up with it as standard with no extra cost!! The interior looks great. It looks like a $30,000 dollar car on the inside. Everything was perfectly made and organized. very spacious it looks like 4 people can fit in the back seat. I am very impressed when I found out the the center part of the back seat is actually an arm-rest that can be folded so the 3rd or 4th person can lean back. You also have access to the compartment by folding it openly.
    I really like the moldings that they added on every sides of the car. It makes the rabbit looks expensive! driver seat can be adjusted electronically which is very cool. The in-dash 6 disc cd changer is awesome!!! there are 10 speakers. Automatic Trans with Tipronic and Sports mode are f$#@n cool. what I like the most is the 150 horses compare to the 115 old ones!

    engine compartment is very neat,clean and organized. when I look underneath the car, I also notice that they have placed plastic covers so you don't see anything hanging!

    it is a winderfull car. I think it will sell really good.

    My freind from the dealership told me that next year VW will actually add a couple of thousand more to the current price tag because the current 14,999 and 16,999 dollars rabbit are too cheap to have those extra features as standards!!

    I can say that the rabbit or golf is really cool and a car that has gone from a cute to sophisticated car! It is a true Grman engineering
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    At $17.6-19.6k starting prices (assuming your friend is correct about the $2000 increase in 2007), the Rabbit will be overpriced IMO--considering that you can get a Fit or Versa for under $15k or a well-appointed Mazda3s for under $18k. If VW wants to stay competitive in this hatchback market, I think they are going to need to leave the pricing about where it is.
  • bpeachee1bpeachee1 Posts: 19
    I believe your friend is not correct about next years pricing, as VW already announced that pricing for 07 Rabbits is the same, and slightly lower on the entry level Jetta.
  • lary999lary999 Posts: 2
    The 2007 Rabbit is ideal for my needs; I've paid a deposit and my Rabbit is on its way. Here's a comparison with my 1990 Honda Civic hatchback.

    1. Ergonomics. I'm 6'3", with long legs. In the Civic, I had to custom-modify the seat, moving the rails back 5"; my knees hit the steering wheel; the toes of my shoes (size 13) wouldn't even clear the bottom edge of the dash to fully release the clutch! By contrast, the Rabbit cabin is wonderfully spacious, with excellent ergonomics: an extended seat-track travel, tilt & telescoping steering wheel, and in general excellent clearance for my legs. All of this cabin space comes at a price, of course: the Rabbit is heavy.

    The Rabbit has 2 big negatives:

    2. Fuel economy. My Honda Civic gets 30/40 city/hiway, vs. the Rabbit's 23/30. This translates to an additional $2,500 per 100,000 miles, at $5 per gallon (a guess at future gas prices in the U.S.). I agree with previous posts, that the Rabbit is actually a mid-size car, heavier and therefore safer than my 1990 Civic. (I predict we'll see a 50+ MPG hybrid electric-diesel Rabbit within 3 years).

    3. Reliability. My Honda Civic, after 16 years and 225,000 miles, has been stunningly reliable. Only one breakdown: a radiator leak. Total cost for repairs, beyond scheduled tune-ups, 2 timing belts, and normal wear (brakes, tires), has been less than $1,000. Difficult to believe, but true; even the clutch is original!

    The Japanese Honda engineer is obsessed with reliability. As a consequence, the 1990 Civic (base model) uses "old" and "slowly-evolved" technology: a 4-speed manual transmission built on a 1980's production line; an engine that has slowly evolved from a 1973 design; a simple computer; heater cables & window cranks perfected over the past 50 years; nothing is power-assist or electronically controlled. Not exciting, but super reliable.

    My 2007 Rabbit, in contrast, comes loaded with the latest engineering innovations and futuristic wonders: Triptronic AT, Bosch active steering, electronic keyless entry, power windows, electronic brake force distribution ... the list is endless. As a consequence, this brand new technology is still in the "prototype engineering development" stage, and it fails frequently. We've all heard stories from Golf owners where the driver's power window falls into the door well multiple times, the radio fails multiple times, and the transmission dumps its fluid, all while the car is still under warrantee. And we've all heard stories of "indifferent" VW service, where the dealer's technicians seem clueless. But this is a NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of the fact that the Golf/Rabbit is loaded with the latest technology: the VW engineers are so busy loading the 2008 vehicles with new technology (and shaking the bugs out of multiple new production lines scattered all over the planet), that they don't have time to evolve a reliable version of last year's technology.

    As a consequence, I'm reserving $2,500 in a separate account, to pay for out-of-warranty Rabbit failures during the first 10 years and 100,000 miles.

    In conclusion: With an estimated $5,000 excess operating cost, compared to the 1990 Honda Civic, the Rabbit is still a great bargain: just compare this to the cost of knee-replacement and hip-replacement surgery.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    In conclusion: With an estimated $5,000 excess operating cost, compared to the 1990 Honda Civic, the Rabbit is still a great bargain: just compare this to the cost of knee-replacement and hip-replacement surgery. :D

    But the knee and hip replacements would not cost you anything, assuming you have health insurance. ;)
  • jpmccormacjpmccormac Posts: 98
    RE: "My 2007 Rabbit, in contrast, comes loaded with the latest engineering innovations... the list is endless. As a consequence, this brand new technology is still in the "prototype engineering development" stage..."

    Since the Golf/Rabbit has been sold for 4 years now in Europe I'd hardly call it the "latest." Part of the problem with reliability lies with the NA dealer network and shoddy service, which lags European standards for VW.
  • So I guess what you're really saying is that you want a car with more features than your Honda has now. You want to upgrade to a more technologically advanced vehicle with absolutely awful dealer service and reliability. Why not look at the other Japanese cars if you're happy with the reliability? If you need space and ease of entry try the Scion XB. My father in law has had 2 knee replacements and 1 hip job done and he is 80. He says it's the easiest car to access and exit that he's ever driven. Also it's about $4k less that the rabbit and has an excellent track record. Of the 5 co-workers of mine that own VW products from 1999-2004 models, 4 are so frustrated with the mechanical breakdowns and shoddy dealer service that they can't wait to dump these poor quality Mexican made cars off for other brands. 3 of the issues are electrical problems that the dealers can't seem to repair. The one co-worker that is happy with his car has a 2003 Golf diesel that was made is eastern Europe. When he took it in to the dealer for scheduled maintenance the service manager told him, "It's good you got a European made diesel because they're the only VW's that last, the other models are junk." That is not exactly the quality confidence that I look for when purchasing a new car. Good luck with your new rabbit.
  • zuma4zuma4 Posts: 11
    I fully aware of the hatchbacks competition. But why people always think that VW is competing against mazda3, toyota matrix, Honda Fit etc?

    remember VW has sold more than 33 million Golf and Rabbit since 1976. and it is the 2nd best selling car in history. and VW Golf/rabbit continue to do well on the market.

    So why would VW needs to go head to head against those car companies? they are on top of this and they will always be!!
    it is clearly that VW are not making hatchback Golfs/Rabbits with such semi-high class standards and add-ons and keep the price at 14-16k dollars in order to stay with the competetion. Instead, its VW promise that Golf or Rabbit is growing up, it's a part of revolution.I can really understand it because I finally own a new rabbit, and I used to own a 04 Golf GLS, driving both cars feels so different. when I saw and drove my car during its first hours under my name, I already felt the improvements. some kind of WHOA! or WOW! factor!! the change is very significant, I didn't even drive it for full performance yet but I felt the additional power. Let me say that If VW raise the price tag 19-20k 5 door with such features and im buying a rabbit today, I WOULD NOT HESTITATE! I would buy it! with a 19250 price tag on mine, I have no regret!

    VW doens't need to compete against cheaper hatchbacks instead they will continue to make better rabbits or golf year after year after year! Golf/Rabbit is always the winner!
  • zuma4zuma4 Posts: 11
    By the way I drove my car to work in NYC on the next day I bought it. Driving it is so much fun.

    the handling is extremely smooth I felt like I was driving a Lexus or infinity. I dodn't hear anything from the inside. it felt good inside very comfortable. I don't even feel the engine during speeding up or at idle or at full stop. very quite car!!

    now that golf or rabbit has 150 horsepower compare to 115 old ones, it has no problem or dificulties during sudden acceleration or speeding up! it's very stable and fast. it upshifts so quick so the engine won consume more fuel or gas.

    I have a co-worker who used to work for Infinity Delaership and now he works as asst. manager like me at work. I let him drive it. and he was so impressed. He asked me what "S" on the transimission stands for and I said "Sports" mode and it also works as manual if you like it. And i told him that I haven't even use the manual or sports mode yet and I told him to try it.

    he was driving it on NJ Garden State Parkway, and when we saw that the road was clear ahead he decided to activate the "sports" mode. before activating it our speed was 55 mph with the "Sports" mode it went from 55 to 80mph in just 3 sec! we were like, whoa!! what the f*c*! it went so fast just like that with out difficulties the engine sounds great with no problem. very stable!!!

    so far so good with the new rabbit under my name. I think Im going to enjoy it for the long run!!
    my co-worker owns a nissan 350Z but when he drove my rabbit he was extremely impressed and enjoy driving it.
  • dc_driverdc_driver Posts: 712
    "I fully aware of the hatchbacks competition. But why people always think that VW is competing against mazda3, toyota matrix, Honda Fit etc?

    remember VW has sold more than 33 million Golf and Rabbit since 1976. and it is the 2nd best selling car in history. and VW Golf/rabbit continue to do well on the market.

    So why would VW needs to go head to head against those car companies? they are on top of this and they will always be!!"

    Ummm. Your post makes no sense. The truth is VW lost their way over the last few years by trying to move towards a more upscale market (Phaeton, Toureg, Passat W8, etc). The truth is VW makes beautiful cars inside and out but did not focus on reliability or customer service and have lost sales as a result. VW is not even close to being on top, and it seems that they are waking up and trying to get back into the game. VW is at a critical junction right now as sales have been flat for several years and companies like Toyota and Honda are raking in the $$ on their entry level vehicles like the Civic, Corolla, Fit, and Yaris (and Prius for that matter).

    While renaming the Golf to the Rabbit is nothing really significant, it shows me that VW is trying to start over again. They have lowered the prices on the Golf/Rabbit/Jetta lines and added some great features. But they are a long way from leading the pack. They should have offered different engine choices and offered a model that achieved between 35-40mpg like the competition. Gas prices where I live are hovering at or above $3 a gallon, and many experts are predicting prices to hit $4-5 a gallon over the next couple years. I drive about 90% city driving and 22MPG is not going to cut it if gas prices remain high. This is why people are flocking to high MPG cars right now like the Civic, Corolla, Fit, Yaris, Prius, Mazda3, etc. I recently traded in my SUV that averaged 15-17MPG in the city for a Mazda3 which is getting close to 29MPG in the city..

    The other two things that VW must improve on is it's reliability and customer service. They should learn from Hyundai/Kia and offer a 10/100K warranty and free loaner cars in order to rebuild their reputation. Nothing like putting your money where your mouth is...
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    to place the Rabbit (and Jetta) in the market. Who is their competition? The VW fans would have you believe it is Mercedes and Lexus. Or at least Acura and perhaps Volvo. And that you are getting a little MB/Lexus/Volvo/Acura fighter at discount prices.

    But whoa. Hold on there. The Rabbit is a fun little car, but it aint in those classes at all. The handling and ride are non-premium compact class, as is the road noise and whatnot. The interior appointments are at the top of the current crop of compacts, but the list of features is merely competitive.

    And if you compare to the other compacts on the market, it is perfectly natural to compare things like reliability and fuel economy, areas where the Rabbit is weak.

    No, reliability and fuel economy are not everything, and the VW interior is worth a shot despite these deficits. Plus, the handling, while not exceptional, does strike a good balance between sport and comfort.

    But the "hey it's an MB at Toyota prices" argument wears a bit thin, I think. The Mazda3 hatch is probably this car's strongest competition. But the top-of-the-line Focus ZX5 and Matrix XR offer good counterpoints too. And MAYBE the Honda Fit Sport, although that is a more bare-bones car than the Rabbit 4-door.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • actually, the local dealership here (I live in Florida) is giving me a deal on the 4 door automatic Rabbit. The guy said he could give it to be for $17,350 and I may just be able to bump it down another $500 because they have this price beating thing and I got a pretty decent price from another dealership in the area. I thought I could get it for less but I didn't realize they were going for so much in other parts of the country, I guess I finally found the upside to living in florida :)
  • zuma4zuma4 Posts: 11
    Are you a VW golf or rabbit owner or used to be?

    VW already learned their lesson by making the rabbit, gti soon r32 some kind of cars that has finally grown up. I can say this because I had driven so many different cars now that I'm a rabbit owner they have added great features that you will find in 25-30k cars.

    a car that went from 115hp to 150hp with tiptronic sports mode well polished interior. better handling, better acceleration. man you name it. so much different. it's grown up. better fuel mileage. mine has 30mpg combine(city/hh) that they need to improve.

    They are doing the same thing with the gti's. the later version will come up with 5 door model as well as the new R32.

    one example
    Why would I buy a civic that has a better mpg without a cd player, a/c as an extra option. why would I buy a mazda 3 that when I speed up on Garden State Parkway the engine sounds like it's thirsty and not stable.

    I actually used to own a mazda 3. that one I hated so much. It was brand new but I spent so much money sending it to rapair shop because some things are not covered by warranty!!

    What I was trying to say is that, quality is the difference here. those car you mentioned, after 5-7 years, they will begin to fall apart. I have learned my lesson in the past. Japanese cars are for sure cheapest compare to their American and European rivals. but After 5-7 years your repairmen at the dealerships will be your newest best friends. Im done with japanese cars. And I know this is not the case all the time.

    when it comes to reliability and customr service, I myself is a VW customer for 3 years now and I had only one problem with my 04 golf gls but they treated me very well. when my car was accidentally hit by a snow plow truck, VW literally lend me a Jetta for 3 weeks for no charge until the repair on my golf had been completed. Relaibilty and outstanding Customer SVC does varies.

    one thing I noticed vw's and other european cars are built to last!!
  • zuma4zuma4 Posts: 11
    500 dollars could be a DOC charge or maybe titles and registrations. my dealer never gave me a deal like that. they were very straight forward and extremely helpful. I traded in my 04 golf gls for the new rabbit with extra features. they did everything for me. all the paper work and transfer of insurance. everything!!

    17,350 price tag on a 5 door rabbit is a good deal!! go for it!! I bet you you will love it!
  • mikusmikus Posts: 109
    > So why would VW needs to go head to head against
    > those car companies? they are on top of this and
    > they will always be!!

    Right. Apparently this is the reason why VW is retooling its factories, freshening up the appearance and pulling out some expensive stuff of the Golf in Europe. New Golf sales have slumped, Golf is losing to Astra, Focus, Mazda3 and Peugeot 307. New Golf is too sofisticated (therefore expensive) but not too different visually comparing to previous model that it is loses popularity in Europe. But maybe for U.S. the Corolla-looking Jetta and Mk4 looking Mk5 Rabbit will be good enough.
  • parkerjonparkerjon Posts: 14
    Funnily enough after looking around at the hatchback competition I concluded, factoring in fit/finish/leg room for my 6'-1" frame (which quickly excluded any of the Honda hatch products), power, price, that the only other car I would consider is the Mercedes B200. Upon hearing that the lease rate for the non-turbo 134 HP model was $100 CDN more/month than the Rabbit I didn't bother to inquire how much they charge for an oil change. (and bought a 4 door Rabbit)

    Why have I bought 10 VW's in a row? they are fun to drive - and I can't afford the premium to drive a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I'm so jealous of you Canadians! You get all the best cars. Mercedes B200 indeed.

    Among hatchbacks, the Golf/Rabbit has the nicest interior short of VW Group's own A3, that's for sure.

    The handling and performance of the Mazda3 hatch with the 2.3L more than give the Rabbit a run for its money though.

    Honda will sell a Civic SI four-door this fall, which at $21K will have all the equipment of the base GTI, the same power but much less torque, and razor-sharp handling. Makes me wonder how much money the 4-door GTI will base at, but then, the Civic is not a hatch. :-(

    Ultimately, the Rabbit is a good value at its current price, which I understand is not increasing for the '07 MY that will begin shortly. It is one more flavor of car to round out the hatchbacks on the market today. For me, because fuel economy is a high priority, it falls out of the running, but it would be a top contender if not for that.

    I will be watching on the sidelines to see if it is any more reliable than the gas Jettas and Golfs that have gone before it....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

This discussion has been closed.