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Fit vs. MINI
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Comments
Headlamp washer/Xenons are extra cost(hundreds of dollars), not standard. The Fit Sport has standard 15" alloys, just like the Mini.
How do you mean "out of its league"? In price? Yeah, the Mini is way of the Fit's league when it comes to cost (optioned with those Xenons, Paddle Shifters, Foglights (stndrd Fit Sport equipment), The Mini is over $20,000. A lot more than the sub- $16k Fit Sport Paddle-Shifted Automatic.
Even if you like the style of the Mini, you pay more to get less (less versatility, room, fuel economy, reliability, cargo capacity, practicality). Buying a Mini is great if you like gadgets, you just pay more to get them (asking you to pay for options like fog-lights, headlamp washers (which I wouldn't need here in the south), and other more useful things like a Panaramic Sunroof (which I think the fit should offer at least a sunroof).
****
Leather - okay, the Fit doesn't have leather. Big deal. Plus, the leather is a very VERY pricey option on the Mini.
Headlamp washers? Trip computer? Automatic climate control? All nice but all amenities.
The sport also has a multifunction wheel. Check.
6 speed manuals are mostly a waste in a car that tops out at less than 150mph. Check. The Fit out-handles and out accelerates a base Mini by a very comfortable margin, Manual or CVT makes no difference - the automatic OR the manual equiped Fit goes 0-60 faster. Does the slalom about 1mph faster, too. Turns tighter. Holds 1 more person and WAY more cargo.
The Fit doesn't have traction control, but that's optional as well. Add leather and some of those goodies and $20K just went by.
****
"5K in user/dealer added options for the Fit certainly will turn it into a serious vehicle"
It still won't turn it into a Mini. What it will do is turn it into something the Fit's target market will not buy.
****
3-5K in aftermarket mods would make the Fit smoke a Cooper S for 3-4K less. IF you had the desire to, that is. I don't see any difference between dealer-installed and overpriced accessories and aftermarket ones myself.
Scion and Toyota do this already - and let me tell you - the aftermarket supercharger equipped(and dealer installed) Vibe/Matrix is a wicked little ride.
And yes, the Mini plays in a whole different league -- in price, equipment, style (especially style), prestige, sex appeal, snob appeal, envy appeal. You name it, it's got it over the Fit.
This whole comparison is ludicrous. The Fit is an econohatch. That's how it's priced, equipped, marketed. Get over it. Accept it for what it is. The Mini was never meant to be an economy car. Why don't you compare the Fit to Cayman. That's a hatchback too! Sheesh! :mad:
Mini? Sex Appeal? LOL It's got all the sex appeal of George Costanza from Seinfeld; it's short, round, and stubby. Envy appeal? Dude, neither of these cars has it.
I believe I'll let the host step in as far as the personally directed attacks go, so I won't stoop to your name-calling level. Also, you might want to consider updating your profile, because you appear to be too embarassed to mention one of those "friggin things" that you supposedly own. Instead you say you own an expensive Honda, known as an Acura TL.
I'm heading out for the night (bedtime here in Central Standard Time), and will be with family tomorrow, so my "trap" will be shut and you may fire away at me. Trust me, you won't hurt my feelings however you may try. Neither of these cars is sexy, both of these cars handle great, and one of them adds practicality to the mix while maintaining a significantly lower price, without offering nearly the number of amenities (albeit optional amenities) to be added. It's that simple. It doesn't have to get heated.
Happy motoring to all, whatever you drive...
Thegrad
It's production-level understated and conservative, with great pains to change as little as possible. I guarantee it or something almost exactly like it is in the works.
And it has 145HP. Add in a few luxuries and you have a Fit "M" for ~18K that's going to sell as many as they can build.
Now, true, the Mini is going to get a model change - it's bigger and more "Fit" like, and has more power, so the Mugen Fit will at least keep Honda ahead of the base Mini when they both come out.
"6 speed manuals are mostly a waste in a car that tops out at less than 150mph"
Really? Interesting. Try one and then come back and tell us.
"The Fit out-handles and out accelerates a base Mini by a very comfortable margin, Manual or CVT makes no difference - the automatic OR the manual equiped Fit goes 0-60 faster. Does the slalom about 1mph faster, too."
Even assuming that's true, so what? The Mini's claim to fame is not that it's the fastest. (Actually if you wanted to play the speed game, the John Cooper Works will blow you [non-permissible content removed] to Nepal). The Fit out-slalom a Corvette, does that give it bragging rights over a Vette? Should Vette owners be hanging their heads in shame? I can just see it now. Legions of Vette owners trading in their ride for...a Fit!
"Holds 1 more person and WAY more cargo."
Big deal. I don't carry cargo in any of my cars. I use rentals, or get it delivered. The Fit also carries more cargo than an M5, so would that get it one up on the M5?
Traction and stability control is standard on the Cooper. STANDARD. S T A N D A R D. Got it?
"Headlamp washers? Trip computer? Automatic climate control? All nice but all amenities."
????? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: "Amenities" ?????
"3-5K in aftermarket mods would make the Fit smoke a Cooper S for 3-4K less."
No it won't. It'll get you something that'll look like a high school auto-shop project though! :sick: Well..if that's what turns your crank... :surprise:
And don't harp on the Mini's price. It is NOT an economy car. People who buy it don't want an economy car. They want something fun, unique, stylish, and they are willing to pay for it, just like the tons of thousands who buy BMWs and Mercedes instead of Accords and Camrys. That's the way it works in life.
I'm not saying the Mini is bad, b/c I have little doubt that it is a fine car. The facts speak for themselves though, the Fit Sport can compete with the Mini Base. The question that comes to mind instead though, is can the Mini Base compete with the Fit Sport?
I'm going to sleep. You folks discuss this and I'll check in after while. The ignorance to the facts going on here is pretty funny, but I've really gotta go.
So basically you are saying the MINI is not comparable to the Fit. I agree. Fit is subcompact economy class and MINI is subcompact luxury lifestyle class.
I have been idly watching this discussion for some time, but I just have to stop you here, and say EH?!
"Slower": Mini Cooper manual is 8.5 secs 0-60, same as Fit with a manual? I forget. Actually, IIRC Fit is 8.7 secs for the same feat.
"Handles worse": Oh you can just forget that, Mini is a HANDLER.
It doesn't cost a bucketload more, but it does cost about $1800 more than Fit Sport, and has rather nice stuff like leather wrap on the steering wheel, maplights, and a proper dead pedal at that price, before any options are added.
"Styled no better than the Fit": well, that's a bold statement that plenty of people would disagree with, but styling is too personally subjective for us to have any meaningful discussion about it. Mini's styling and other attributes are sufficient for it to sell 30K per year at full sticker, YEARS into its model run.
Since Fit will only sell about 40K per year, it would be an appropriate comparison to see how long Fit sells at full sticker. Will it match the Mini Cooper for longevity? Well of course, Fit will get a full model refresh after only two years, so it won't be exactly apples to apples, but I wonder if Fit can manage to sell at full sticker for two years. That would be somewhat surprising, but I am not going to say it couldn't accomplish it, especially if gas stays over $3/gallon.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where the Fit beats the Mini and makes up for it, though, is that despite its high roofline, it has an absurdly low center of gravity. Stability/Traction control, while nice, isn't a determination of handling or performance - those are safety devices for when you act like an idiot and get in over your head. Yes, I wish the Fit had it, but I'm more than happy with the side airbags and ABS as it is. Given the price, it's not a bad deal.
BTW - there is a model in Japan that does have that AND is AWD. Yep - AWD traction control, EX model trim - the works. Very hot seller, because Japan gets snow most every winter.
No smog. No electronics. No sensors. No Fuel Injection. NO PLASTIC. 145HP, 3000lbs. RWD. Stickshift. Went up $1000 last year in value as it oficially hit 40 years old model-year wise, with the 2007 Mercedes out for some models.(How's that for "depreciation?)
Sometimes it's not what you can afford to drive.
But I do need an ultra-high mileage commuter machine as well. I can afford the gas(15MPG!), but putting several thousand miles a month on my classic car isn't my first choice. Love driving it - but paranoid every day I do that someone will run into me, as it's a unibody car, and most of the replacement panels and parts are hard to find.
So far, the Fit Hybrid is at the very top of my list, with the Honda GX a close second(used, of course).
So your idea of "handling" is making U turns on a side street? :confuse: :surprise:
Our Mini is a little over a year old. We can drive the snot out of it on a daily basis. Puts a smile on my face everytime I whip around a corner like a go kart. It has all the modern safety amenities, and I can probably sell it tomorrow for close to what we paid for it. How's that for depreciation? :P
Try that with a Honda Accord.
40 years ago people loved it, and with some updating people love it today too.
Sweet!
Hey, how about Honda gets on the ball and develops a line of really fast, furious Fits to blow away not just the Minis, but the WRX STIs, the EVOs.
How about a Fit Si: with maybe the new v-TEC 1.5 for a few more horses, or maybe even the 1.8 tricked out to 160hp. Add on the helical Limited Slip Differential and 6 speeds. Throw in some interior upgrades--Si seats, telescoping steering wheel, height adjustable seats, a panoramic sunroof-- and you'd have a wicked little racer--that gets good gas mileage and can haul a bunch of stuff.
Oh, and keep it under 20K.
Or, better, how about Honda shoehorns in that 197HP 2.0 Si engine with all the above mentioned ammenities? They could call it the Si C (C for "competition).
Or, still better, Honda fits in the S2000 engine with AWD and all of the above ammenities into a Fit. 240hp! AWD! They could call it the Fit Si C R (R for "rallye").
Or, best, they put the 240hp 2.0 in the Fit with AWD and all the above mentioned ammenities, and engineer a turbo for it: A 300HP AWD FIT!!
They could call it the Fit Si C isT (isT for "turbo".
And, best of all, they get it to us for under $30K!!! Wouldn't that be cool.
Fit Si $18K
Fit Si C $20K
Fit Si C R $24K
Fit Si C isT $28K
Sick. Sicker. Sickest!!!!
Ah, the mind reels.
What do you think?
As far as whether or not the Fit and MINI are competitors, in my mind they are not. I went from a '98 Lexus GS400 to an '03 MINI Cooper S and now to a 2005 Pontiac GTO. My last Honda was an '83 Civic S. I don't dislike Honda's, I've just found that I prefer to drive something a little bit different than everyone else, and have a little fun too.
When i drove one, I had such an enthusiastic salesman that we were literally doing donuts in this little cul-de-sac near the dealership. The handling is amazing.
Now my dealer can't keep a Fit Sport in stock long enough for me to drive it, so I can't make the direct comparison, but if Fit handled THAT well, it would be making much bigger news than it is.
I look forward eagerly to making the comparison, however. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes, it's all about a few tenths her and a few thenths there, but suffice it to say that the base Mini and the Sport Fit run neck and neck with each other.
Of course, upgrading to the better suspension or the S package... the Mini leaps ahead, no question about it.
My original point wasn't to slam the Mini as to point out to the people who are all "it's too expensive for a Honda" that it has Mini-like handling for a lot less money, which puts it in its own category apart from the Yaris and Hyundai and Aveo.
I haven't driven a mini, and I'm pretty sure I'll never get that chance. In fact, I driven very few cars which have been accused of having great handling. I have, however, driven my new fit and whether somebody considers "go-kart-like handling" to be a good thing or a bad thing, I'd say the fit has it. More on that below.
I'm not exactly sure why we're comparing the mini and the fit anyway. There may be cross shopping of the two, especially once the word gets out about the fit's handling or if Honda decides to go that direction with the trim. But, they're two different beasts. And, no, despite what some elitists are saying, they're not two different beasts in the sense that Walmart is different than Macy's. They're different in the sense that the mini can't compete with the fit in terms of practicality and the fit can't compete with the mini in terms of luxury niceties and established "coolness". The fact that they have some similar features and similar acceleration and handling is just a red herring to allow passionate people on both sides to keep the arguments alive. What's most telling about that, to me, is that there ARE people already who are passionate about the fit. That's not what you would expect if it was just a "minivan-like" "economobile". There are a few riled-up people in both camps and that's interesting, even if it's not enjoyable to read.
At any rate, you're taking a very level-headed approach. Whether you're truly considering both of these cars for purchase, I'm not sure, but just for the sake of answering things for yourself you're wanting to actually drive both. How unique!
The fit *is* making some news due to its handling. C&D made quite a deal about it, but it was contained only in the review of economy cars. I've read other reviews that rave about the spot-on steering and the lack of body roll. But, I guess short of actually driving both (which still will be subjective), I guess one thing we could do it look at the results of edmunds slalom testing:
The 2002 Mini Cooper ( http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=61670 ) completed the edmunds 600-foot slalom course with an average speed of 67.4mph and the reviewers had these comments:
"Excellent stability provided by a compact, stout structure, short 97.1-inch wheelbase and a cube-like construction with wheels pushed as far out to the corners as they can go allowed the Mini to thread through the 600-foot slalom at 67.4 mph, a number comparable to performance-oriented vehicles like the Lexus IS 300. While nose-heavy front-wheel-drive cars usually don't encourage cretinous behavior on a serpentine road, the Mini (with its 63/37 front/rear weight distribution) allowed us to touch base with our inner simian selves. Besides, the excellent brakes and limited thrust kept us in check."
There's also the 2005 Mini Cooper convertible ( http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=104624/pageId=62- - 525 ) which completed the slalom with an average speed of 66.6mph. The reviews said:
"We noticed some mild body roll in the slalom, but the car is very easy to control. The steering is quick and offers excellent feel, which is quite amazing considering it's electric. Both Dynamic Stability Control and Cornering Brake Control systems work very well, and the two systems can pull the car back in line with amazing finesse. Overall this is an excellent car to take through the slalom, especially considering it's a convertible."
The 2007 fit ( http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109810 ) finished the slalom with an average speed of 67.5 mph and the reviewers said this:
"The Fit drove like a champ, with quick steering and exquisite road feel. These impressions were confirmed on the track, where it slipped through the slalom in 6.1 seconds at 67.5 mph. The Fit felt stable and well balanced, and provided good feedback to the driver. It was about as much fun as you could have in a thrifty little car. Not only that, but the sporty handling didn't sacrifice comfort; it provided a pleasing, comfortable ride."
So, in short, I think the fit just might handle "THAT well". I would be surprised if, in the end, the fit handles as well as the mini (which is known for its handling), but I don't think the difference will be as great as some would think.
Mike
The Mini turns right at the instant you think you want to turn, practically before you even move the wheel with your hands.
To me that is what the Fit feels like...again, maybe the Mini is quicker still, but the Fit's steering is light, responsive and quick.
After driving the Fit for long periods of time and then taking our 2002 Civic coupé out for a spin, the traditional hydraulic steering on the Civic feels heavier and less responsive particularly at low speeds.
Actually, bodble2, I haven't seen thegraduate say much that has been wrong -- considering that opinions can't really be wrong. He got involved in this thread because somebody suggested comparing a fit to the mini. There was a debate between plekto and moparbad over whether the fit could be considered a "mini competitor". Thegraduate stepped in to clarify that the comparison being made must be to a base mini in order for it to make sense. He wasn't the one who started the comparison idea, he just tried to scope it a bit.
At one point, thegraduate said that "the mini may be a better car overall" but was simply pointing out that in some respects the fit sport makes quite a case for itself.
So far, so good. I'm not sure why some people were getting so riled up over the very concept of even discussing the comparison of the fit and mini, but at least things were progressing in some relatively civil way.
Things fell apart when thegraduate told you to "check your facts, man." To this you responded with "shut your trap before you embarrass yourself further". I'm sure you couldn't care less about my opinion on this, but it seems to me that you were the first one to throw a tantrum. At any rate, it was your post that drew the attention of the moderator.
You went on to tell thegraduate, "I forget. You're a college student. Guys your age like to buy cheap cars and "soup" them up. Yeah, I used to think like that. Then I started making money." Was that supposed to sound as snobby as it did? Were you just trying to push buttons at this point?
I've butted in and most likely didn't make things any better, but I couldn't just sit by and let you put all the blame on thegraduate. Maybe you've had the last word now and things can move on.
Mike
Why do you insist on bringing your Korean-car bashing into discussions that have nothing to do with them?
I agree the Fit is in a different class than the Hyundais, specifically the Accent that is a direct competitor for the Fit. That is, the Fit is in a lower class. You noted:
I'd gladly pay $1000 more for rear disc brakes, adjustable seat height, a map light, better carpets, more amenities, and so on.
You probably don't realize that you were describing the Accent pretty well--standard rear disc brakes, dual height adjustments on the driver's seat, map lights, better carpets, more amenities even on the base GLS model such as dual lighted vanity mirrors, front and rear center armrests, six-speaker MP3 stereo, an honest-to-gosh dead pedal, nice-looking wheel covers, locking fuel filler door, and readily available alloys (15" or 16" depending on model) and optional remote locking with alarm (and on the hatchback, available power moonroof). The funny thing is, you don't need to pay $1000 more for these amenities. Actually, you would pay about $800 less than the Fit base model, before any discount from the dealer. Meaning in the real world today the Accent will cost much less, with much more equipment including 15" alloys.
So can you try to stick to the topic at hand, Fit vs. MINI? There is another discussion for Fit vs. Accent if you want to talk more about how the Fit is in a different class than Hyundai.
You'll note that most of the time, I also include the Yaris.
Here's a full list of cars that I have personally test-
driven that handle worse than the Fit:
Toyota:
Yaris
Xa
Xb
Mazda:
3 series
Suzuki
Reno
Hyundai:
Accent
Fit:
Everything.
Daewoo:
Aveo
BTW - Daewoo does build crud.
Chrysler
Neon/the new replacement for it
GM:
Cobalt
Anything by Buick
I'm sure I forgot a bunch as well. The Fit gives me the same driving experience and immediate feedback that a Subaru, a Corolla SE-R, a Mini,a Tc, Golf, or a Focus gave me. It didn't drive like a tin can. It didn't rattle going over potholes and railroad tracks as much. The rear end didn't feel like it was flapping around/along for the ride like the Yaris and Aveo, either.
Going around an outward-sloping turn and hitting uneven pavement(road construction plates they put down) - the Fit was tight. The Yaris - bounced. (the older Tercel also did this) The Aveo was beyond dreadful - even worse. The Aveo reminded me of the Kia/Ford Festiva or a Suzuki/Geo Metro.
On smooth road, all were fine - the problem was what happened when the conditions went from yuppie neighborhood to normal Los Angeles streets. Add in some potholes, cracking pavement, patches, roadwork, and so on - and the others start loosing points.
In an 18-25K car, you expect good handling. In a 14K car, that's often a rarity. OTOH... That a car like the base Golf can come in at or near the same price and offer good handling, as does the Focus and a few others - it's clearly a matter of priorities. I'll take better handling and driving characteristics every day over bling and amenities if I have to choose between the two.
Why do you have to choose? The upcoming Hyundai Accent SE 3-door will offer the best of both worlds. From Hyundai's press release:
"Accent was tuned to satisfy unique consumer needs. The GLS four-door was tuned for comfort, but still feels agile. The GS three-door has a unique steering rack with increased sporty feel. The SE trim delivers even more road-holding capability with a sport-tuned suspension featuring 24 percent stiffer front spring rate and 11 percent stiffer rear spring rate, larger stabilizer bar (24 mm.), unique strut valving, high performance steering gear and larger wheels and tires. Accent SE delivers a 70 percent increase in roll control over the GLS, even exceeding the roll stiffness of the Hyundai Tiburon SE. To complete the performance package, Accent SE has powerful four-wheel disc brakes with a four-sensor, four-channel Antilock Brake System (ABS). Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD) is integrated into the ABS, automatically adjusting braking force front to rear based on vehicle loading conditions."
Now add in the available amenities that will be offered in the SE. Things like a power moonroof, maplights, in-dash 6-CD changer, plus over 35 accessories that can be bought to personalize the Accent to your liking. All at a price that will likely undercut the Fit. Seems to me the Accent SE may give Honda a few fits. :P
As far as the MINI, my father owns a Cooper S and that is a truly fun car to drive. If the Fit can actually match the handling characteristics of the Cooper, then kudos to Honda!
We already have a Fit v. Hyundai discussion. Please look at the list of the Fit discussions here http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f09fe85/ for the list of Honda Fit discussions (main and comparisons).
The Fit gives me the same driving experience and immediate feedback that a Subaru, a Corolla SE-R, a Mini,a Tc, Golf, or a Focus gave me
Maybe you meant Nissan Sentra SE-R (not Corolla)? I test drove one of those once, great car, fun to drive, in the same way Mini and Fit are.
I've driven my brother's Mini Cooper S, I think its a 2003 model. Never driven the Base Mini which seems to be what we are comparing the Fit too. Interestingly, from a Mini perspective, the Base is pretty slow. I almost got the car and didn't like it compared to the S. So to compare the Fit to the Base Mini isn't really saying much. Lets compare it to the S instead. :P
The Fit's steering feel and response is better than most cars in its class but can't be compared to the Mini. Its true, the Mini S' steering response is instant. Its compared more to the EVO and I believe the EVO and the Mini S was the top 2 in handling a few years ago. The Fit's steering response has a little delay and as I posted earlier, my Mazda 3i even gave me a better feel. However, given this for normal driving, the Fit is more suitable.
The Fit's initial torque as someone posted before makes you feel the car is fast. I drove around Manhattan and the Fit sprints and zips past yellow cabs with ease and sometimes too much causing the ABS to initiate when I brake while going over bumps and potholes. The car is just too hyper in the 2500-3500 rpm range.
On the highway, the car too picks up reasonably well. Although it does reach around 3500rpm when you hit 70mph+, the car has a very quiet cabin that you only feel to shift into 6th gear (which isn't there) because of the torque/hp feel.
Its suspension really holds up to those bumps and potholes while driving through the city. When you hit a bump, it recovers quick with no further bounce. The Fit doesn't really lean when going on sharp turns. The car is very solid which makes it feel like the Mini.
The Fit's gauge cluster IMHO is better than the Mini. The Honda Fit's especially at night makes you feel you are driving a luxury car.
The Fit beats the Mini in MPGs. Got my 3rd fill up and it still averages over 37mpg combined city/hwy. :P
Its funny, when I first drove the Fit off the dealer lot, it felt bouncy and wobbly. After a day of driving, wearing the tires from the armor all and taking off some air (dealer had it at 36psi so I lowered it to 32psi), the car's handling/steering felt a lot better. Maybe I just got used to it? :confuse:
Many of the bugs HAVE been worked out--beginning 2005 model was significantly changed; the dash is now a single piece (which is where a number of the rattles occurred), the base model transmission was upgraded to the gertrag version, and in the S the gear ratios have been reworked (and the suspension softened, which may or may not be an improvement, depending on your perspective)--if you haven't driven a 2005 or 2006, you probably should--they are significantly (although not radically) different from the previous models.
You'll never see a million Mini models--it's not what BMW is trying to do with the Mini; they are trying to stay with the Mini heritage. Heck, there's quite an uproar over the Traveler, let alone a bunch other models. Personally, a bunch of Mini model don't make much sense--I'd hate to see that much brand dilution.
As for HP, when you start getting above 220 on the Mini's platform, you're really pushing it for what the average driver can handle. You can still mod it though. I would love to see an AWD Mini though--and that hasn't been ruled out for down the road, although there are know plans for it in the immediate future (Gertrag actually developed an AWD for the Mini, but it got shot down).
The hood will remain a clamshell; the only difference it the lights will be integrated into the body rather into the hood itself (There are two holes in the hood that comes down over the lights). Otherwise, the hood is the same design as before (No way Mini could have gotten rid of the clamshell hood!). It will be a bit taller, but that's due to the new European pedestrian laws.
The interior materials are actually supposed to be of higher quality; you're dead on in that there is some concern about what they're doing with the rest of the car. One thing to remember, it's possible to use a cheaper manufacturing process AND improve the car at the same time. There have been some track tests floating about that suggest that the new Mini's performance is going to be slightly improved over the 2006; I doubt that Mini is seriously dumbing down car whose reputation is built on it's handling, but that remains to be seen.
Again, I bought a 2006, and I'd do it again; I'm not sold on the 2007's--yet. But down the road, I might be...