Hybrid Prius that gets over 100 Miles per Gallon
timinalaska
Member Posts: 6
There are a couple companies that are actually making modifications to the Prius so it gets over 100 mpg for the average commuter or errand runner.
The Prius+ drives just like a normal hybrid, except that you have the optional ability to plug it in at night at your own house. You don't have to plug it in, but if you want to, you can get up to a 50 mile boost without EVER having to use the gasoline engine.
If you just run around the city doing errands at speeds up to 34 miles per hour, you could potentially get unlimited gas mileages. It costs 60 to 90 cents to charge overnight (much less than a gallon of fuel) and as the electricity grids become cleaner (ie, windpower, water, and solar verus coal) our Prius' become extremely more effective against pollution and global warming. At the same time, we minimize our support for Middle Eastern oil companies with 'petro' dollars that we spend at the pump. As a whole, our country becomes not only cleaner, but safer too.
I and many other customers would love for Toyota to make available now a plug in optional Hybrid Prius (PHEV), so please call Toyota and ask them to start making them. They don't think there will be a demand due to the failure with plug in electric cars in the past, but with gas at over $3.00 a gallon, I sure would love to average over 100 per gallon. And then when the battery runs out, the Prius keeps running as a normal hybrid.
The technologies exist, they are already on the road (just not mass produced -- see www.calcars.org), Toyota and other companies just need to know that us consumers will actually buy them. So please call Toyota at 800-331-4331. Tell them that for a few more thousand more, we'd like to plug in our hybrids at night to get over 100 miles per gallon.
Toyota really needs to do a complete customer survey to really gauge the demand for this new type of vehicle that not many people know about.
Thanks!
Tim
The Prius+ drives just like a normal hybrid, except that you have the optional ability to plug it in at night at your own house. You don't have to plug it in, but if you want to, you can get up to a 50 mile boost without EVER having to use the gasoline engine.
If you just run around the city doing errands at speeds up to 34 miles per hour, you could potentially get unlimited gas mileages. It costs 60 to 90 cents to charge overnight (much less than a gallon of fuel) and as the electricity grids become cleaner (ie, windpower, water, and solar verus coal) our Prius' become extremely more effective against pollution and global warming. At the same time, we minimize our support for Middle Eastern oil companies with 'petro' dollars that we spend at the pump. As a whole, our country becomes not only cleaner, but safer too.
I and many other customers would love for Toyota to make available now a plug in optional Hybrid Prius (PHEV), so please call Toyota and ask them to start making them. They don't think there will be a demand due to the failure with plug in electric cars in the past, but with gas at over $3.00 a gallon, I sure would love to average over 100 per gallon. And then when the battery runs out, the Prius keeps running as a normal hybrid.
The technologies exist, they are already on the road (just not mass produced -- see www.calcars.org), Toyota and other companies just need to know that us consumers will actually buy them. So please call Toyota at 800-331-4331. Tell them that for a few more thousand more, we'd like to plug in our hybrids at night to get over 100 miles per gallon.
Toyota really needs to do a complete customer survey to really gauge the demand for this new type of vehicle that not many people know about.
Thanks!
Tim
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I would like to have a car I could plug in over night and use to run my errands. The modified Prius you are referring to is about a $12,000 add-on to an already over priced car. Even if gas was $5 per gallon you would never make up the difference you paid for the additional batteries. Then you add all that weight to a car that is marginal handling and you could have some serious problems. I am not saying that Toyota will not come up with a PHEV, it is highly unlikely until a better battery is invented. Good luck, I don't think Toyota pays any attention to us little people.
However, the reason it's so great if Toyota took this on is because the extra cost might only be $3,000 to $4,000 (instead of $12,000) due to Toyota being able to manufacture PHEVs in economies of scale.
The initial battery technology has already came a long way since the first Prius was introduced a few years go. The batteries have also became less expensive. What we need is for Toyota to get on this and research and produce PHEVs so they actually are affordable. This also helps decrease our dependence on foreign oil.
I believe there is enough demand that not only it will be profitable for Toyota, but also will cause the battery technology to become much more affordable. Batteries are becoming lighter as they get more advanced. The batteries are still heavy, and to the best of my knowledge, the extra gain in weight currently causes a decrease of about 5 mpg. This figure might actually be less now, as the companies are putting a lot of research bringing this figure down as much as possible. But the lower mpg is compensated by being able to plug in your Prius overnight and get 100 mpg if you're commuting to work or doing errands.
As has been said, a couple companies have been able to modify the Prius into an optional plug in hybrid...imagine what Toyota can do with their engineers and their financial standing. I'm sure they could do so much more and make this technology much less expensive.
Thanks!
Tim
p.s. It's us little people that buy the Prius' though, and Toyota will listen to us if they know more and more people would want to buy a PHEV
I don't think it has. They are still using the same NiMH battery technology developed by GM for the EV-1 in 1997. The only reason I can see for the lighter batteries is less capacity. There may have been some subtle advances. Toyota also has to pay royalties for using the NiMH battery technology. I have not seen any credible evidence that the price of batteries for the hybrids have come down at all since their introduction. Hybrid car prices have only gone up, up, up.
CalCars is using Li-ion batteries for their plug-in hybrid modifications. They are very expensive and have some serious problems to overcome concerning heat if over charged.
Don't get me wrong I like the whole concept of an electric vehicle. I was sad that CARB pulled the carpet out from under the automaker's. I believe they would have solved most of the issues by now. I'm not sold on current hybrids, but for those that like them, it is good.
If I was in need of a commuter car I would consider the Civic hybrid. The Prius is a good commuter also. I just cannot get past the looks. The Prius has lots of room when you fold the back seats. The Camry Hybrid is very popular also. I just do not like that low slung look that so many cars are copying. It hinders visibility that is important to me. Good luck with your search.
The aftermarket guys add a much larger battery (something I have often wondered about). The NiMh battery was never developed by GM! It's a design done by a separate company (who have been trying to get the car manufacturerers to listen for a few years now). The NiMh battery has been improving rapidly. Just look at the capacity increase of AA batteries over the last two years. Almost doubled!
As for adding an inverter, not a good idea. Most aftermarket inverters run on 12VDC. The Prius 12V battery is tiny and you'd run the risk of discharging it rapidly - and damaging it (because it's a lead acid battery it can be damaged if discharged too much).
As for heat under charge, all battery technologies heat up, but both the LiI (lithium ion) and NiMh (nickle metal hydride) seem to suffer from this a little more. An easy solution is to use coolant passed though small pipes between the battery cells. There are up to 400 cells in the Prius (500 V battery), though I suspect it's closer to 333. Lots of places for improvement. There isn't actually a lot of heat energy, so a simple free air radiator would suffice with a charger that throttles back when the temp gets too high.
Oh, and there are rumours that Toyota will add "plugin" capability to the Prius in 2008. We shall see.
I just saw this at the opening in Los Angeles last week. It's very interesting, and it also discusses to an extent the improvement over battery technology over the last few years, and also how the Automakers have not used the best battery technology available to them.
The movie's been distributed by Sony Classics, and it's well worth seeing.
Thanks! Tim
Here is a brief bit of history concerning the NiMH battery that was developed by a GM company for the EV-1.
Detroit, October 10 -- Texaco (NYSE:TX) and General Motors (NYSE:GM) today announced Texaco's intent to acquire GM's share of a joint venture that has developed an advanced battery technology for the automotive market.
Under the terms of the memorandum of understanding, Texaco will acquire GM's 60 percent share of an existing joint venture with Energy Conversion Devices – ECD – (NASDAQ:ENER), a firm in which Texaco already holds a 20 percent interest. GM and Ovonic Battery Company, a subsidiary of ECD, formed the joint venture, GM Ovonic, in 1994 to manufacture and commercialize high-efficiency, nickel metal hydride (NiMH) automobile batteries. The joint venture, which will be re-named Texaco Ovonic, plans to fully commercialize and expand its applications to a broad range of energy markets.
"ECD and Ovonic developed breakthrough advanced NiMH battery technology and General Motors has brought it to the production stage
http://www.cobasys.com/news/PressReleases/20001010.htm
OK, now onto the heart of the matter about Cobasys' long history of aggressively defending its comprehesive NiMH patent portfolio, which gives it exclusive control over worldwide NiMH battery production.
I have not actually read the legal judgement against Panasonic in favor of Cobasys by the international court of arbitration because that decision was sealed and supposed to remain confidential by prior agreement of the parties, as you probably know. However numerous details of that judgement/settlement have emerged in the press, including some revealed by Cobasys itself. What we know is that the court levied a $30 million fine against Panasonic and Toyota which they had to pay to Cobasys for violation of Cobasys' NiMH patents and back-payment of royalties owed to Cobasys.
NiMH History, why no PHEV
I stand by my statement - "The NiMh battery was never developed by GM!"
Partially funded, perhaps, but that's it.
This brings up an interesting point - I'm not sure there is another example of such a quick adoption of a "new invention". The development hatched the battery in 1999 and look how pervasive use of the NiMH technology has become in six short years!
Under the terms of the memorandum of understanding, Texaco will acquire GM's 60 percent share
The bottom line is the US taxpayer through Clinton's giveaway program PNGV was involved in the development of the NiMH battery.
PS
Texaco Cobasys (Ovonics) sued Toyota and Panasonic after GM sold their 60% to Texaco.
I've got to remember to RTFM! The Prius battery consists of 28 modules of 6 cells each. That's 168 cells. Peak voltage will be 252 V and "average" voltage will be around 210 V. Minimum voltage would be 201.6 V, and if you measured the battery voltage and found it lower you might have some shorted or otherwise dead cells. You can estimate how many dead cells there are by dividing the difference by 1.2 V (the minimum voltage you should see across a nickle metal-hydride cell). This would be difficult unless you actually separate the 7.2 Volt modules though, as the voltage can vary depending on state of charge -of each cell-, so the battery voltage can vary more than you would think it would caused by dead cells.
Bottom line of this is -if- you can buy the 7.2 V modules the battery is made of, you can "repair" a battery pack. Once it's over about 7 years of operation, this might not be a good way to go as all the cells will be getting old. Nice to know though in case there are cell failures early. As Toyota absorbs these per the warrenty, I guess they made it easy to repair.
I guess Texaco Ovonics is the company they interviewed (with a plant visit as well) on Motorweek last year. I think the head guy they talked to was the actual inventor. They are also into using the Nickle hydride matrix to store hydrogen at "low" pressure (100 psi instead of several thousand psi) to build "practical" hydrogen storage tanks for hydrogen powered vehicles.
I personally would rather see a simple electric vehicle for running errands with a 50 mile range. Much easier to build and maintain. Would satisfy a lot of people's needs. As long as modifying a Prius is the only option for PHEV, I don't see that as practical. There is just too many things that can go wrong and not be covered by a warranty.
The electric vehicle is very clean, never needs oil changes, and has many less moving parts. When the EV1 was around, it needed very little maintenance. The auto industry relies on cars needing parts, oil changes, etc, especially dealerships. I forget what the exact percentage is, but dearlerships make a large portion of revenue from their repair shops. The EV1 was very successful and had a range of about 80 miles, and 'could have' been marketed succesfully. GM and other auto makers (and oil companies) did not want electric cars around.
When GM1 ended the leases to the EV1, rather than simply selling the cars to the leasees, they forced leasees to return the cars against their will. The cars then got crushed and went into the shredder. Why not just sell the EV1s that have already been driven. Toyota finally allowed some customers to keep the RAV4 EV after consumer protest against Toyota also forcing customers to return the vehicles and then crushing them.
GM and other auto makers did not want anything to do with electric vehicles even when there was customer demand for them. There is more information about this at www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com and the movie is being shown throughout hundreds of theatres across the nation over July and August.
The great light hope for hybrid vehicles
Lithium ion could be the wonder battery that enables automakers to make big profits on hybrids
Richard Truett | | Automotive News / June 19, 2006 - 6:00 am
Batteries may be the key to the future of gasoline-electric hybrids.
If hybrids are ever going to earn automakers a profit, the cost of the batteries must decrease while the life of the battery pack increases. The number of battery suppliers also must expand so that batteries are just another commodity, like windshield wipers and headlights.
Lithium ion -- the same type of powerful, compact battery in your cell phone and digital camera -- could be the wonder battery that delivers all that and more.
Virtually all of today's hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries. Nickel metal has proved to be reliable, but the battery packs are heavy, and the materials inside are expensive compared with those in lithium-ion packs.
Also, most experts think that hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius and Ford Escape Hybrid, will need a replacement battery pack after eight years or 100,000 miles.
If so, that could hurt the resale value of used hybrids because it would present subsequent owners with a battery replacement bill of between $3,000 and $5,000.
Manufacturers in Japan, Europe and the United States are working to replace nickel-metal hydride batteries with lithium ion. The switch could begin in the United States as early as 2008.
Earlier this month, Nissan Motor Co. launched the Atlas 20 medium-duty truck in Japan with lithium-ion batteries.
Officials at Ford Motor Co., Toyota Motor Corp. and Johnson Controls Inc. say lithium-ion batteries will begin replacing nickel-metal hydride batteries in high volume around 2010. Johnson Controls has a joint venture with French battery maker Saft Groupe SA.
"There's less weight, greater power density and, eventually, lower cost" with lithium ion, says Tom Watson, Ford's manager of hybrid propulsion systems. "We think that in the long term when you look at the cost-efficiency curve, lithium ion has much better potential than nickel metal. The benefits that it provides are just too overwhelmingly positive to pass up."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lithium-ion batteries
ADVANTAGES
Lighter than nickel-metal batteries, improving performance and fuel economy
Enables plug-in hybrids
Production costs should fall over time
CHALLENGES
Sensitive to temperature
Fragile
Can be slow to recharge
Manufacturing and shipping issues
Existing nickel-metal batteries could improve
Those so-called experts aren't all that smart or observant... since there are quite a few owners well in excess of 100,000 miles without any need for battery-pack replacement. It doesn't make sense either, since the warranty in some states is for 10 years / 150,000 miles.
The latest update from Jesse (a friend of mine with a Classic Prius) is having surpassed 243,000 miles with the original still.
JOHN
That is pretty darn good. Longer than I would have bet on them.
The new Tesla pure electric EV that was just released July 20,2006 uses lithium and they say 100,000 miles is expected.
These are not your old lead acid 100 year old technology !
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/09/toyota_dream_ho.php
This was the first time.
To keep it at 100% would actually shorten the battery life and impair the system, I believe.
No plug-in is needed!
MidCow
The best of both for the real world.
But true beauty is a Prius or hybird where you have an 'optional' ability to plug in and get a 100 mile boost. So for your commuter workweek, you can average 100 miles per gallon. You still don't have to plug in -- but if you want to get a boost, you could average 100 mpg for those everyday trips.
Would be great to hear. I have had my 2006 Prius for about 2 months now and am getting 47.5 mpg. Thanks for the info. I'm in Alaska also.
You must be an optimist looking through rose colored glasses. Electric cost to plug-in and charge a battery is not free. You have to equate the cost to equvalent gallons of gas and in doing so recalculate you effective mileage. Remember no energy conversion is 100% efficient coal/hydro > electric> transformers for distribution > battery > mechanical car; there is alway loss!. I surmise you might be suprised to find that if you did have and elctric pulg-in your effective gas mileage would probably go down ; not up.
YEMMV E=electric
MidCow
The 100 mpg does not hold true for the standard prius, it's for the optional plug-in hybrids, or PHEV. You can convert the standart Prius into a PHEV. And of course there is always loss with energy, but for an overnight charge with the conversion, the electricity will cost you about $1.00. Compare that to an average of $3.00 a gallon for gasoline across the U.S. And while coal plants are still dirty, in California, most of California's energy does not come from coal and it's much cleaner. Unfortunately, coal still account for 60 % of our fuel for electricity for the rest of the U.S.
But is it easier to clean up millions of dirty cars, or is it better to clean up a relatively small number of coal plants. And as our sources for electricity become cleaner, the optional plug in hybrid makes even more sense.
Please call Toyota and other hybrid makers to encourage them to make these cars. The cars are available today, but it's engineers on their own that are converting these cars at a high cost. If Toyota can do this in large scale, you could have a hybrid that gets a 100 miles per gallon boost from an overnight charge that costs less than a $1.00.
Okay thats only a couple of major flaws:
(1) electric cost is way off
(2) electric generation not cinsidered in polution
(3) battery weight increase not compensated for
(4) 3-5K $ additonal cost not considered.
Will a PHEV fly, yes it will 3-5% of the current hybrid buyers will buy a PHEV and hybrid buyers account for 3-5% of all new car sales.
So PHEV will account for .09-.25% of all new car sales and will save the world from polution!
And where or where does it say 100 mile per gallon boost for $1.00 (which by the way is priced incorrectly) ? 100 miles per gallon by not counting the electric charge or the equivalent cost to generate the eletricity. Even using their figures it cost $0.81 to go 30 miles and a gas cost of $3.00 per gallon at noraml Prius of 45 mpg. To figure out that you are getting 100 mpg actually means the following
45 mpg at $3.00 = $0.0667 per gallons use x gallons
Electric cost 0.81/30 = $0.027 per gallon electric cost
use y gallons
100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon = $0.03
$0.0667*x + $0.027*y = $0.03
using Y as the dependent and solving
.027y = -.0667x+.03
y= ( -.0667x )/.027 + .03/.027
y =-2.47X + 1.11
The y intercept is when x= 0.44
In order to be real numbers x has to be less than 0.44 whch means that in order to achieve 100 mpg most of the power and energy has to come from the battery charge all of the time 56%. Hey i can get 99 mpg in my Accord V6 coasting to a stop in 6th gear!
I think my windmill perpetual motion car will do better!
MidCow
P.S. I am going to solve my gas problems by winning the Shell gasoline giveaway by winning the lifetime gasoline supply.
Southern California Edison, it is .37 per KWH, for the basic allocation, baseline. It can go higher, depending on useage, and time of day. :sick:
I had a little trouble following the numbers afterwards
Let's try my math on your figures.
" Gas mileage assuming 45 mpg at $3.00/gal =6.67cents/mile
Electric cost 0.81/30 = 2.7cents/mile
And now for
"Mathematics - the most overrated Science"
To get 100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon
Is another way of saying 300 cents will get us 100 miles
Let z be the number of miles driven on gas :-
We will need to drive z miles @ 6.67c/mile
And 100-z miles on battery @2.7cents/mile
Then 300 = z miles at 6.67cents + (100-z miles)at 2.7 cents
Thus 300 = z(6.67-2.7) + 270
Thence 300-270 = z (3.97)
Whence 30/3.97 = z
Hence z = 7.55667506297229219143576826196474
Ergo you would need to drive 7.5miles on gas and 92.5miles on the battery which is basically what you are saying Midcow
The 7.5 miles would not warm up your engine according to gagrice so your engine gas mileage would be down by 30% meaning you would need even more miles on the battery to make 100mpg.
And [5] Loss of interest on your $3-5k Phev premium had it been invested instead.
T2
One last point. Will the extra batteries in this possible PHEV have enough power to carry the Prius to 70 MPH cruising speed without calling on the ICE? If not, it is NOT going to be worth much to most commuters.
Second in regard to the idea of add-on batteries see my post #118 in "Advanced Hybrid Engineering" board, it's here on Edmunds.
Third there is no sensible cost effective way to get a 1500cc ICE to move much above 55mpg (in summer temperatures) by novice drivers. That includes all those who don't much care what's going on under the hood. And I'm fine with that.
It is obvious to me that a smaller engine is the answer, perhaps 600cc with a turbocharger and the ECU will limit RPMs to 5000 so that the Hybrid Synergy software is still operable. Perhaps a ten year old vehicle with a blown engine would be a viable candidate. The 2009's will be out by then and we may be seeing something from Toyota in this direction. Toyota takes small steps. Perhaps they will reduce cylinders and speedup engines. Right now they are probably collecting data regarding long term engine wear (or lack of it) to make those decisions. I don't see them reaching their cost reduction goals unless they make that kind of decision.
T2
Rocky
If I get one I plan on 'driving it to the moon', (putting between 250K to 300k miles on it).
In general inflation has been going up and up. MSRP for a new Prius is around 22,175. Thats about 1,000 or 2,000 then when it first came out. Seem to be in line with inflation for other autos.
"The only reason I can see for the lighter batteries is less capacity."
less capacity...The reason is for less weight or more capacity is the reson for lighter batteries.
"I have not seen any credible evidence that the price of batteries for the hybrids have come down at all since their introduction."
callign toyota dealerships through out the years there was been a remarketable delcine in batery costs. At first the cost wasd about 8-10 grand to replace the batteries, now its about 3-4 grand to replace the battery.
"There may have been some subtle advances."
those subtle advances have increase battery performance by 20% sinse they days of the EV 2. many of those subtle advances have led to lighter batteries.
CalCars has promised a PHEV Prius conversion for some time. Is it available to the consumer as of today? If so what is the cost?
CalCars has promised a PHEV Prius conversion for some time. Is it available to the consumer as of today? If so what is the cost?
Im not talking about Calcars. I was talking about replacing the orginal manufacurer equipment. I priced it about 3-5 grand. What does a gas sensing guage computer have to to battery costs? Which have been going down. Lithiun Ion battery tech is getting very old. The cost to replace the Lithium Ion battery is dropping. The new nanotechnology batteries which are very expensive. like all technology , as it matures, it become cheaper. esp when production kicks in. It costs to push the technology envelope. its cheap to rehash the some ol technology. Its cheap for auto companies to make a new full size p-u. Its expensive to make a hybrid.
I would be happy to just get the mileage stated by the factory or even 3/4 of it, certainly I expect to get more than half the specified mileage!
seven years ago people were stating batteries were costing 8 grand to 10 grand to replace. I was born at night,..but not last night.
According to Toyota, the cost to replace the battery is $3,000 and lets throw in another 2,000 for labor...so 5 grand. and lets throw in another grand, so one can feel cheated and taken advantaged of by the stealership. Thats a new Prius battery and 3,000 for labor to install a battery.
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2006/fall/battery.html
So if the price for a battery significantly differs from Toyota's pice, one should call Toyota and tell em. Toyota designed the Prius to have easy to replace parts. They realized that auto mechanics are not eletrical engineers and the prius was design with that in mind.
" They have two very bad characteristics. They can combust if over charged and they have a relatively short lifespan. These are big obstacles to the 100 MPG hybrid."
Many batteries will explode if overcharged. A plain jane car battery will combust if its jumped the wrong way. Im sure the people at calcars have some type of state of charge computer built into their system. I know the Prius does have a state of charge computer in to promote battery life and overcrahrging and undercrarging. This is old technology and one doe not need to revinvent the wheel everytime a new ev or hybrid car comes out.
True, but the question is - does this same battery life technology also work on LiIon? They are notoriously bad on longevity in laptops. One of the characteristics I found in my Dell is that occasionally it had to be discharged almost fully, or battery use-life would suffer. Also, that battey is now dead; I find LiIon is good for about full 500 cycles.
I would be interested to hear from someone who has information on LiIon vs NiMh characteristics in this area.
To be practical the PHEV will need a storage system that can use more than 60% of the capacity, as the Toyota hybrids do.