Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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Comments

  • burnsmr4burnsmr4 Member Posts: 318
    SOME INFO FOR THE PEEPS -- If anyone is curious, I calculated, going by the March 2003 MSRP for Subaru Added Security, the following pricing for some of the $100 deductible extended warranty Gold Plus (NOT CLASSIC) plans. The assumption is 40% off the MSRP, as one of the previous posters indicated:

    - 6 years/80K miles - $510
    - 5 years/100K miles - $720
    - 6 years/100K miles - $900

    I got the following estimated pricing from my purchasing dealership on these plans:

    - 6 years/80K miles - $700
    - 5 years/100K miles - $1000
    - 6 years/100K miles - $1250

    So far, Royal Subaru of Decatur's pricing has been the best. I could not get in touch with the folks from Gwinnett before they closed. I'm doing that tomorrow. Sounds like a profit maker to me.

    Honestly -- I'd be fine with the 6/100 plan for about $1000. It's $100/month on the 10-month/no interest plan before taxes.

    HERE'S THE BIG QUESTION -- According to the contract that I was given to look over, the Subaru Added Security extended warranty supercedes any other warranty at the time of instatement. If I had 12 more miles before my 36K mile warranty limit, I'd be under the new plan. If I had 6 months under the 3 year warranty limit, I'd be under the new plan.

    Does the extended warranty apply only to the original 3 years/36K mile warranty, or both that warranty AND the 6 year/60K mile warranty?! I'd be pissed if I lost the powertrain warranty rights by signing up for this additional warranty.

    Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

    burnsmr4
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Coincidentally, my wife is sitting next to me, totalling business expense receipts, and when I mentioned that >6000 lb loop hole she liked the idea.

    Any how, fix the law. People are naturally going to exploit it. Pay 15.3% for self employment taxes and then tell me you're not going to look for ways to offset those.

    Extended warranties - more than meets the eye. Don't overlook roadside assistance for the full period. Cancelling AAA saved us $497 over 7 years right there. Nice loaners, red carpet treatment, too. Piece of mind. Better resale. OE parts replacement.

    While the dealer can make a good profit selling them, Subaru actually loses money (i.e. claims total more than the wholesale value of the warranty).

    It does not take long to total up $510 in repairs in 6/80k. One wheel bearing costs more than that. So would a head gasket.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    fix the law. People are naturally going to exploit it.

    My outrage is never directed at people who exploit various provisions of the tax code. It is well settled that people have no duty to pay more than the minimum required by law. My beef is with the lawmakers who put these schemes into the law in the first place.

    It does not take long to total up $510 in repairs in 6/80k. One wheel bearing costs more than that. So would a head gasket.

    A well-maintained, respectfully driven car that requires either of these repairs in its first 80,000 miles is prima facie poorly designed. A manufacturer that expects its customers to pay for these premature repairs, particularly if they afflict a material proportion of the vehicles sold, does not deserve buyer support and wouldn't get mine next time around.
  • troop2shostroop2shos Member Posts: 235
    Component failures may not be from design flaws but in the manufacturing & assembly process. Also, most accessories are obtained through supply chain partners. Through SPC & other manufacturing controls, component problems can be minimized which accounts for vehicle manufacturer warranties increasing in time & mileage over the years. I remember when getting a 1 yr / 12k powertrain warranty on a new vehicle was a big deal. Even a Rolls can develop problems. Someday, maybe an 80k bumper to bumper warranty will become commonplace due to better components & manufacturing controls / materials / tolerances - not used strictly as a sales tool. Should a widespread problem occur, you can hope for a general recall or a hidden warranty (paint, sludge, whatever). Some manufacturers (at least one I'm aware of) will not honor an extended service policy without customer dollar support if the repair exceeds the value of car at the time of the failure. Always read the fine print - buyer beware. Failures can occur, but to me, it's how the manufacturer takes care of the issue (when legitimate) as it relates to supporting the brand in the future. Also, a manufacturer may not care about loyalty for the "few" it affects & the corresponding lost sales - won't impact their bottom line to a significant degree unless it's safety related...their choice / your choice.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Component failures may not be from design flaws but in the manufacturing & assembly process. Also, most accessories are obtained through supply chain partners.

    All of which are the manufacturer's responsibility, not the customer's.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Steve,

    Deep down, I think I'm with you about the flat tax, but I suppose realistically there are always going to be percs delivered by legislators in our modified democratic (representative) system. Who was it who said, "to the victor, go the spoils?"

    My complaint for this forum is that if there are going to be benefits, these benefits should not be short-sighted. I'll be the first to admit that fuel economy, efficiency and emissions matter to me--after all, these are among the reasons why I'm interested in Subarus to begin with.

    I don't ask to be rewarded per se by virtue of some write-off, but I sure don't like paying for someone else to do exactly what I choose not to do--be irresponsible.

    I was actually going to let this go after I first posted it, but I read a number of responses, and I do think its relevant to this site.

    -The Mudge
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We know 2002 and later Foresters don't have the wheel bearing issue, but some earlier ones did. It doesn't affect every car, but one failure costs twice what the warranty would.

    Gasket failures are not common with less than 80k miles either, but again, if it did it would pay for the warranty 4 times over.

    Our 626 was rated "better than average" in reliability by CR, but still we spent $2500 in repairs in years 5-7, with less than 80k miles when sold.

    Toyota's sludge issue had some owners forking out $8000 for repairs. Even newer Accords have tranny issues that are also quite pricey. Both are well designed cars, just not perfect, none are.

    It depends on what price you negotiate, but factoring in the other benefits above, I think it can be worth it depending upon your situation.

    -juice
  • burnsmr4burnsmr4 Member Posts: 318
    I think the real factors guiding me toward an ext. warranty are:

    - Atlanta commuter traffic wear and tear
    - primary vacation/travel vehicle
    - 3 years of payments left to go
    - not a AAA member for roadside assistance/emergencies

    My wife's Volvo is at 90K miles and not under any type of major defect warranty right now. It's a good car, but if we drive it on long trips and/or more than the Forester and something breaks, it's really friggin' expensive to repair.

    That said, I calculate about 17K miles/year - 18K miles/year of driving on the Forester. That's 85K - 90K miles over 5 years. A 6 year/100K mile ext. warranty would cover the car during that time and give a little breathing room at the end of the payments to either keep driving the car under a service agreement or sell it with a warranty to sweeten the deal.

    Frankly, I didn't want to spend more than $1000 on the warranty, so I may not be able to swing the 6 year/100K mile ext. warranty unless the dealership comes down a little.

    Thanks for the input, folks!

    burnsmr4
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I'll be the first to admit that fuel economy, efficiency and emissions matter to me--after all, these are among the reasons why I'm interested in Subarus to begin with. I don't ask to be rewarded per se by virtue of some write-off, but I sure don't like paying for someone else to do exactly what I choose not to do--be irresponsible.

    My views exactly. Public policy in the USA ought to be focused on breaking our alarming dependence on imported oil. The entire mine-is-bigger-than-yours SUV craze is utterly contrary to this goal. A tax break that encourages people to buy even more of these behemoths by providing a 100% writeoff (which shifts their tax burden to more responsible drivers) is absurd. If there are any tax incentives in this area (which, as a flat tax proponent I would oppose), they should be extended to buyers of high-economy vehicles, not abysmally low ones.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Thanks for the response. I think we're pretty much on the same sheet of music here.

    Let's hope Subaru does not lose sight of keeping fuel efficiency as part of their fine overall package.

    -The Mudge
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Sorry for the mix-up. Mea culpa.

    "Thanks for the response. I think we're pretty much on the same sheet of music here.

    Let's hope Subaru does not lose sight of keeping fuel efficiency as part of their fine overall package."

    -The Mudge
  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    I am happy to announce a new addition to the family:

    We have adopted a 2002 Subaru Forester L.

    We aquired our Forester from IL Motors of Dillsburg PA. Actually it was from my wife's parents. IL --> In-Law get it? Ha-Ha, but I digress. It's just great being part of the family again after a 8 year hiatus from my last subaru. I have a few questions about our Forester.

    1. How do I get the weather band to work on our radio? It is the single DIN tape deck and separate single DIN CD player.

    2. Does removing the crossbars from the roofrack help with noise and gas milage and if so how much?

    3. What exactly is the tolerance that Subaru allows for different sized tires? I think I am speaking of total diameter.

    4. Is anyone else amazed at all the little storage compartments that the Forester has? There seems to be a dozen at least.

    Well that's all I can think of for now. Thanks for your input.

    Kyle

    2002 Forester
    1984 GL Wagon 4X4 "Lil' Blue Urabus" (name given by a dear old friend)
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    2. Does removing the crossbars from the roofrack help with noise and gas milage and if so how much?

    I can't quantify "how much", but one thing's for sure: Removing the crossbars can't possibly hurt in either category.

    3. What exactly is the tolerance that Subaru allows for different sized tires? I think I am speaking of total diameter.

    For current models, the tolerance is expressed in circumference: The circumference of the largest tire on the vehicle should not exceed that of the smallest by more than 1/4 inch. Converted to diameter, the largest-to-smallest tolerance would be no more than 8 hundredths of an inch. (.08 inch)
  • dnestrdnestr Member Posts: 188
    3. "All the tires on the vehicle should be the same as their model and size" is written in the warranty agreement between me and my dealer. Otherwise they cancel "transmission warranty" .
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    >>witty ex-Navy types and best of all: all of you are bright!!<<

    How about us pacifists? I take the latter part as a well-deserved compliment, though.

    My father did the Sub thing, 65 years ago or so, so I have a pretty good idea what it was about under the worst of all circumstances [he was "on the other side", of course].

    JB, I am glad to hear your XT performed well in the white stuff. I did not expect any less.

    All of you out there, don't forget that AWD does not improve braking on slippery surfaces...

    Happy New Year,

    - D.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I know they make noise on our 03 Forester, and I took them off for that reason.

    I can also tell you that I lose 1-2mpg when I have Yakima racks on my Outback. On a Honda Civic I had in the early 90s, the penalty was more like 5-6mpg.

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you are considering swapping out all 4 tires for something bigger, the rule of thumb is +/- 3%. Fender and spring base clearance is so tight that you can't use much more tire unless you get rims with a different offset, that put the tire farther from the body.

    I have 225/60R16, some have managed to fit that size on stock rims, but it's tight. I really think 235/60R16 would rub the fender lining.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    My father did the Sub thing, 65 years ago or so, so I have a pretty good idea what it was about under the worst of all circumstances [he was "on the other side", of course].

    He was fortunate to survive. The mortality rate for U-boat crews was appallingly high. Three of every four WW2 U-boat crewmen perished at sea. During the final year of the war, U-boat patrols became almost indistinguishable from suicide missions.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    JB, I am glad to hear your XT performed well in the white stuff. I did not expect any less.

    Better than I expected, actually, considering the lack of studded tires.

    All of you out there, don't forget that AWD does not improve braking on slippery surfaces...

    I tested my ABS brakes several times on the snow, and unfortunately I can't say that they seem any better than other, older ABS systems I've owned. I'm strongly tempted to pull the fuse and disable the system. The lengthened stopping distances are worrisome.
  • speterson1speterson1 Member Posts: 228
    Before Christmas I won a Subaru 6-CD changer off of eBay for $129 w/shipping (Legacy model, see http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- gory=43948&item=2452569308 for a picture) since our single CD for our Forester died. With the help from this board in the form of an excellent pdf file which diagrammed the entire installation, I installed the changer yesterday. Went very smoothly except when I was removing the old head unit and CD player from the mounting bracket and stripped the screws on one side, but I eventually got them out and the new changer is in, looks great, and sounds even better!

    I was actually quite surprised at the sound difference since I didn't change the speakers (OEM regular Forester cheap speakers, don't even have the tweeter upgrade). Perhaps this head unit is preamped differently than the OEM Forester CD player?? I did notice when fooling with the audio settings that the changer has a control for midrange as well as treble & bass. Overall the system sounds a lot more powerful, I love it! Thanks again to all those who helped!
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    Jack - Is it fused such that you can disable only the ABS, or is there anything else on that circuit?

    Also, what happens if the ABS goes inoperative - are you left with regular brakes, albeit 4 wheel discs, or is the system somehow impaired?

    Instinct tells me it can't be that simple.

    Larry
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Folks on one of the other un-nameable conferences who race their Subes say that they routinely remove the fuse for the ABS system in order to get shorter braking distances and increased driver control. They haven't reported any adverse consequences at all, except that the ABS warning light comes on.

    I was hoping that new, state-of-the-art fast-cycle 4-channel ABS would be better, but I am virtually certain that I could brake in shorter distances in the Forester without ABS.

    ABS is valuable in situations where an inexperienced driver might slam on the brakes to full-lockup in a panic situation and lose directional control. Been there, done that, learned from it, and don't do it anymore.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    ABS is valuable in situations where an inexperienced driver might slam on the brakes to full-lockup in a panic situation and lose directional control.

    Absolutely true. What's also true is that in most situations, a professional driver using threshold braking can normally stop in a shorter distance. Experienced drivers can also use the threshold method and achieve similar results but it takes practice.

    -Frank P.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    When I off-roaded my Outback Sport, I always pulled the ABS fuse. Once I didn't and nearly hit the back of a Trooper (paisan's)!

    -Dennis
  • hayduke01hayduke01 Member Posts: 128
    You're right on with your thoughts on the need to lessen our dependency on imported oil. IMHO, the current administration has done and will continue to do much more harm than good on that issue.

    Turning to the tax code question, what exactly is the tax benefit for buying a three-ton behemoth? I'd heard of that before, but don't know any of the details. And can we substitute two Foresters for one Expedition to make the weight?
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    There are links aplenty on Google that explain the code section 179 up-to-$100,000 immediate write-off for >6,000# vehicles purchased for business use. I've copied just one below. Sorry, you can't combine two or more lightweight (i.e. sensible!) vehicles to meet the >6K# test...

    http://www.bcentral.com/articles/anthony/148.asp
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    There are two primary and essential things that must be done to reduce our precarious dependence on foreign oil and on the governments that supply it:

    1. Burn less of it.
    2. Produce more domestically.

    This administration, along with millions of shortsighted, selfish SUV buyers among others, can be faulted for doing too little of the first. However, it is not this administration, but rather rabid environmentalists, who deserve the blame for doing too little of the second.
  • lowellklowellk Member Posts: 30
    Kyle,

    I agree, they sure are nifty. The little compartments in the door arm rest are missing from '03 and later, I'm sorry to say.

    Cheers,

    Lowell
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Member Posts: 501
    If we say that burning less oil is a goal, don't pass the buck and force auto and truck manufactureres to raise fuel economy by increasing CAFE standards. Passing the buck this way will only create problems via the law of unintended consequences. Todays proliferation of large trucks and SUVs is a direct result of the way the original fuel economy standards were crafted.

    If you want to reduce fuel consumption, lower demand by increasing taxes on gas. Unfortunately, this solution makes too much sense. Consumers / voters won't go for it, as everyone wants a free lunch and no one wants to pay for it. No politicians will have the guts to increase fuel taxes. It is easier too pass mandates to auto producers.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    While in most ways I'm a low-tax small-government guy, I absolutely agree that by far the best and most effective way to induce people to consume less energy is to substantially raise taxes on it. I'm not talking piddling 5 or 10% tax increases, I'm talking doubling the current selling prices, or more. Even as consumption declined, this tax would bring in billions (as a rule of thumb, figure $1 billion of tax revenue per each penny of added energy tax). Rebate part (but not all) of that via a voucher system to low-income consumers to alleviate hardship.

    Then, with gasoline at $3.00 per gallon or more, watch all those incredibly selfish mine-is-bigger-than-yours SUV buyers suddenly decide they really don't need 2- or 3-ton tanks after all.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Rebate most of that via a voucher system to low-income consumers to alleviate hardship

    Hmmm... sounds suspiciously like an income redistribution plan to me.

    -Frank P.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I object to income-redistribution schemes when they are based on income taxes, because you can't avoid earning income if you are to survive without sponging off everyone else.

    However, I have little quarrel with income redistribution when it happens as described above. Higher taxes on energy are at least in part avoidable merely by changing one's gluttonous behavior. Become a thrifty user of energy, and you pay small amounts of tax and little of that gets redistributed. Continue being an energy pig, and you have voluntarily chosen to "donate" larger parts of your profligate spending, to be redistributed to wiser, if poorer, recipients.

    Poetic justice, I call it.
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    "All of you out there, don't forget that AWD does not improve braking on slippery surfaces..."

    I don't entirely agree, AWD adds considerably to stable engine braking and control of the vehicle. It is much better than standard 4WD, which requires some front axle/back axle tire slip. Just had the Forester up in the snow, it handled great, even on the Yoko Geos.

    John
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I hadn't arrived at that exact conclusion, but of course you're right. The safest way to descend steep slopes on slick surfaces (if one must!) is to roll down with the engine in 1st or 2nd gear, depending on the grade, while braking as little as possible. It stands to reason that an AWD vehicle will handle steeper slopes and more engine braking before sliding occurs than either FWD or RWD cars would.

    As for the Geos, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well mine have done during our recent snowfalls. Much better than I expected. However, the acid test arrives in the next day or two; the forecasters are warning that we'll be getting the dreaded freezing rain, creating sheets of black ice everywhere. Why did I decide to wait until next season to buy studded tires?
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Anybody know whether they ever have after-season sales on winter tires?
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Actually, the AWD system on auto trans cars will distribute more power to the front wheels under braking, which helps keep the front of the car from diving (it sends power aft under acceleration for the opposite reason). So there sure is some braking benefit from AWD beyond "engine" braking.

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Code says you have to use it exclusively for business, so we're not even close to qualifying for that.

    Any how, I made a vow to buy only vehicles that got 20mpg in the EPA city cycle or better, and so far I've been able to keep that vow. It's getting tougher, though, as our needs grow and we look at bigger vehicles, especially when you want AWD.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Juice,

    C'mon, man, what did you learn at the auto show? People wanna know! Especially details about the next Legacy turbo. Gearing, 5-speed automatic, 6-speed manual, etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not yet, we go tommorrow for the SoA dinner, then the show on Wed.

    -juice
  • kullenbergkullenberg Member Posts: 283
    Jack:
    Have you looked at the Nokian Hakka's with studs? Reports are that they are almost unstopable. If I go with an XT, I'll be getting a set.
    Cheers
    Pat
  • hayduke01hayduke01 Member Posts: 128
    A headline in the January 5 Lawyer's Weekly states, "Jury Awards $3.3M in Low-Speed Airbag Case."

    An airbag on a 1996 Ford Taurus inflated in a 9 MPH collision in Florida, killing the driver. Apparently Ford programmed it's "Generation 1" airbag "must-fire" for collisions 14 MPH and greater, and "must-not-fire" for collisions 8 MPH or less.

    I've never experienced an airbag deployment, and I'd like to keep it that way.

    So now the Subaru question: how are our Forester airbags programmed? Not that I'm going to lose any sleep over it; I'd much rather have the airbag than not have it.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    A headline in the January 5 Lawyer's Weekly states, "Jury Awards $3.3M in Low-Speed Airbag Case."

    I would really, really, really like to know more facts in cases like this. Was the driver belted in...was the seat adjusted to put the driver's chest at least 12" from the steering column...was the driver smoking a pipe at the time...were there any other explanatory circumstances that might lead a reasonable person to conclude that neither Ford nor the airbag was the actual - or primary - cause of death...was the driver of the other vehicle 'at fault' in the crash, and if so was he/she assessed a greater share of responsibility than Ford...conversely, if the dead driver was 'at fault', was that adequately taken into account in determining Ford's liability...that sort of thing. After all, the collision was probably somebody's fault, and if it hadn't occurred in the first place, the driver would be alive no matter how well or badly the airbag was designed.

    I am a plaintiff's attorney's worst nightmare. Gladly so.
  • hayduke01hayduke01 Member Posts: 128
    The system anticipates that a few potential jurors will be a nightmare. That's why we have voir dire, peremptory challenges, and challenges for cause.

    In voir dire, attorneys for each party get an opportunity to question the potential jurors. Each side then gets a certain number of peremptory challenges, i.e., the ability to excuse a potential juror for any reason or even for no reason. We are also allowed unlimited challenges for cause, but there we have to convince the judge that a juror cannot be impartial. Challenges for cause seem to be denied more often than they're granted.

    In the Florida case the decedent was a 29-year-old woman, 5-9", 130-145 lbs. Defense argued that decedent had her seat set back "farther than a shorter adult, . . . that she must have been leaning forward at the time of the accident."

    Defense also argued that change on the vehicle floor showed decedent was preparing to pay toll at an upcoming toll booth, and therefore was distracted from her driving.

    Apparently the jury was not persuaded.

    The article also indicates that "the parties have since reached a confidential settlement." In practical terms that means that the plaintiff (decedent's estate) agreed to accept less than the jury verdict; defendant agreed not to appeal and presumably to pay now rather than after exhausting all the appeals several years in the future.

    Juries aren't always predictable. I've won cases I didn't expect to win; I've lost cases I expected to win. Parties settle cases to remove that element of uncertainty.

    Even though I've seen some verdicts that have disappointed me, I still think that the system works.

    And when it doesn't work, we still have our appellate courts. But the simple fact that a verdict appears to be outrageous doesn't necessarily mean reversal on appeal. Juries and trail judges are given a great deal of discretion. So that fact that one party dislikes the outcome, as is almost always the case following a trial, isn't grounds for appeal. Rather, the dissatisfied party must show that the trial court committed legal error and that the error led to the wrong result.

    Jack, notwithstanding your self-characterization as the plaintiff's worst nightmare, your posts here make me believe that if you survived voir dire you'd make an excellent juror.

    Finally, looking beyond the news report, the jury heard all of the evidence. We did not.
  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    I bought a set of firestone snow tires from the tire rack this past summer for about half of what they were new. Now it could have been because they were on closeout as well. $35 a pop for size 185/65/14. not a bad deal. unfortunitly the car they were for is being sold since we got our forester.

    Kyle
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    The ones in my 99 Sable went off in a relatively low speed collision - I came through basically unscathed but a cell phone in my winter coat's chest pocket (no I wasn't talking on it, hands free or otherwise)... had the attached antenna snapped off and I had a corresponding bruise on my chest for a few days.

    Hindsight being perfect, I decided to measure my normally seated & belted position from the steering wheel - about 14 inches. I've made sure to maintain that distance in anything I drive now.

    I'm 5'9" and weigh (we won't go there...)

    Larry
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    So it's possible she was bent over (with her head right next the steering wheel) trying to retrieve the change she dropped on the floor, and wasn't paying attention to where she was going and hit the car in front of her? And that would be whose fault? I realize that's pure speculation but isn't it also a commonly accepted fact that juries tend to feel sorry for and side with an individual and when the plaintiff is viewed as a big impersonal corporation with deep pockets?

    Oops, we seem to have gotten off topic :-)

    -Frank P.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Thanks for noticing. Sometimes I think only the hosts notice thread slippage :-)

    Sales in Salem may jump:

    Statesman Journal

    Steve, Host
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I still think that the system works.

    I think our jury system has run amok. Case in point: the $4 billion (that's not a typo) award by an Oregon jury to one smoker (or his estate) who continued smoking for decades after warnings appeared on every pack, and may even have begun afterward. During the years he smoked, every sentient human knew there were health risks. I flatly don't buy the "tobacco is the most addictive substance on earth" sophistry; literally millions including me disproved that self-indulgent whine by quitting after 10, 20, 30 years instead of wilfully ignoring the warnings and voluntarily smoking ourselves to death. Granted, that insane jury award was drastically reduced later, but as you pointed out, defendants can never count on that. You simply cannot convince me that a majority of those jurors weren't shallow thinking bleeding hearts who were fundamentally unwilling to separate blatant emotional appeals from fact.

    Sorry, Steve, saw your note after writing.
  • kullenbergkullenberg Member Posts: 283
    YEA JACK!!
    I couldn't agree more. I became a non-smoker 25 years ago and never looked back. That, by the way, is the key phrase to success. "Become a non-smoker" Quiting implies something you might try again. Becoming a non-smoker, means avoiding situations and people where smoking is prevelent.
    I don't even have an ash tray in my Subaru (back on topic!)
    Cheers
    Pat
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    that will sound of the person is too close to the steering wheel. Maybe the Forester will eventually get this as well (staying on-topic).

    -Dennis
This discussion has been closed.

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