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I could say the same thing about the pharmaceutical industry. The prices of their products have skyrocketed beyond belief. You don't see anyone trying to prosecute them on trumped up allegations or accusing them of dumping.
Besides the LS400 is not the "same car" today as it was in 1990 as you proclaim. It's length has been increased dramatically, the horsepower of its engine has been increased (They don't even make the LS400 anymore. It's now the LS430, with the model number indicating an increase in engine size and horsepower), as well as other technical advances.
Upon its release, Toyota's Lexus LS430 was and still is the "standard of the world". Cadillac? What was that? Cadillac was nothing but the biggest embarrassing joke in 1990, with leftovers from the 80's of their chopped down to Barbie size Eldorados and Sevilles, their dumber than dumb hastily done Chevrolet Cavalier cosmetic rip off (Cimarron), sloppy steering technology, the Allante fiasco, and cheap plastics galore trying to sell at a price point that was more than laughable.
Even if Toyota was guilty of dumping, there are countless other industries in which this practice is done, and yet no one blinks an eye or even cares.
I asked a Japanese exchange student in the late 80s, maybe early 90s, about how the Japanese felt about dumping their products here. He felt it was perfectly okay. His rational was that they don't have raw materials and they have to import materials for their production. (Yes, that's what he said.) This was at a time when dumping of many products had already affected US companies including the auto industry. Many electronic companies had given up on producing here.
The rational I recall at the time was that Japanese companies kept their workers for life and were responsible for doing so. To maintain production they wouldn't accept lowering product quatity but would just lower the price below cost. That was better than having no production occurring but having to pay the workers for life (sounds like auto industry with the laid off workers showing up to collect a paycheck at locations and just sit or take classes or job hunt all day.
If anyone can find information about dumping on the net please link to it. I am out of time-I have to go to a Reds game now, and my first search on Google didn't find anything other than the Kodak link I posted.
Note in the Kodak post that Clinton didn't even support Kodak in their WTO challenge to the dumping...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Obviously because the car proved to be a very good automobile at whatever price Lexus chose to charge for it.
I've always contended that the reason the American car industry met disaster in the 1980s was simply this--- the largest consumer boycott in American history. We all voted with our dollars, and Detroit lost the election.
I have no idea how many current Lexus owners were former Cadillac owners, but I have an idea that not too many former Lexus owners are now Cadillac owners.
The BRX is theta. Two different vehicles.
Ford can't catch a break. Its LR3 finished last. Its all important brand new Lincoln MKZ wasn't asked.
VAG didn't do much better. Its Touareg finished next to last. Its very important brand new Audi Q7 wasn't asked.
GM's on quite a roll at C&D. Wasn't it last month Silverado beat Titan and Tundra in the truck comparo? Poor Ford finished last with its relatively new franchise player F150!
Current CTS did poorly in comparos. If next CTS can beat either 3 series or soon to be released C class in future comparos, Caddy will be on a roll!
You are absolutely correct, the current BLS is a Epsilon but the first generation. The next BLS is not due out until after 2011 and some report it will be based on the Eps 2.
My "opinion" is that it will not be a FWD vehicle in 2012.
Some other platform will be used.
To be truthful though 2012 is a long ways away. Work will not be started yet and anything can happen in that time period. Perhaps a reduced size Zeta???
http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmarket-segment/sedans/gms-next-rwd-platfo- rm-alpha/
Cadillac, which established itself as a born-again brand with the introduction of the CTS (Sigma platform, also RWD), will use Alpha as well. However, this won’t change the company’s plans for its CTS — the new car rides on an improved but similar version of the Sigma platform. Rather, Cadillac will create a new, smaller car on the Alpha platform. In Europe, this car will be the replacement for the BLS (currently built on the same FWD Epsilon platform as the Saab 9-3). But will it come to America?
http://globalautosystems.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=777&Itemid=2
I have no idea how many current Lexus owners were former Cadillac owners, but I have an idea that not too many former Lexus owners are now Cadillac owners.
That might apply to your demographics, but it certainly doesn't apply to mine (southern california), and it never has as long as I've been able to drive cars (1985)
One of the biggest selling Cadillacs, the Cadillac Escalade isn't even made in this country (U.S.A.) -- so much for worry that competitors like Toyota Land Cruiser aren't our "own" like one of the other bloggers mentioned. Toyota just secured space to build a huge plant somewhere in the south (U.S.A). The Sigma platform is built by the French
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I have no idea how many current Lexus owners were former Cadillac owners, but I have an idea that not too many former Lexus owners are now Cadillac owners.
I agree, the price of the Lexus LS430 has gotten ridiculous, but if you want one that's what they cost, and apparently there are plenty that can afford it and don't mind paying it because it is a very fine automobile.
Cadillac prices their cars like they are world class, when they aren't. (does that ring a "bell", standard of the world) They still are not refined enough. And the fact that they occasionally pump out leeching "boobs" like the Catera and are too late in realizing they shouldn't have cheap interiors in expensive cars, doesn't help matters.
Another thing, there is something about GM's cosmetic engineering that seems to blatant and cheap.
We know that Lexus was not even offered at home until this year. Toyota was afraid to flop at home. Mercedes and BMW are the luxury cars of choice in Japan. The Cadillac might be popular, if not for the huge tariffs imposed by the Japanese.
Best joke of the day...
If there are any "crap cars" then it's the FWD ES. Unfortunately the ES is Lexus' best selling sedan...
If the IS (2nd gen that is, I have to agree that the 1st gen is not worthy of the Lexus badge) and GS have cheapened Lexus' line then the current CTS & DTS has really really really cheapened Caddy's line.
The Catera was, like the Cimarron, a quick and dirty fix to getting a production model to fill in a gap that they should have noticed sooner, but did not. The Escalade is a similar vehicle, a rebadged Suburban to make a big SUV for Cadillac to compete with the big Lincoln. The Catera was rushed into production to compete with the Lincoln LS.
I think Cadillac is getting its line up of vehicles into shape. The DTS needs to be replaced and the STS and DTS need to fit into the big picture in a way that does not overlap too much.
????
What are you talking about??
Of course it is not clear. GM does not normally submit their program plans to the public.
No, no reason to add the cost and packaging compromises.
think G6 and BLS replacement only. (midsize)
No. Caddy's suppose to be the "standard of the world" and serves as domestics' MB, BMW, Lexus fighter. There is not a single entry in the entire Caddy line screams "affordable".
Lexus is supposed to be top of line Mercedes beaters.
MB has the entry line in C-class.
Lexus has the entry line in IS and ES class.
I still don't see how the IS and GS cheapened the Lexus line. At least they don't offer the POS $25K C230 hatch like the MB did.
We were strictly going by looks on the IS and GS. Especially the IS. I also agree on the ES. I believe that Toyota gave up one of it's best cars ever, the Cressida, to give the Lexus ES250 a chance to survive. Toyota lost two customers for life, that I know of, when they dropped the Cressida.
My folks bought a Cadillac Cimarron because my mother always wanted a Cadillac. Now that was a real POC. Nothing but trouble with that car.
I guess my point is all car companies have had losers over the years. Times when they lost sight of what place they held in the eyes of the automobile buyers.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA...
I have admit... This IS the best joke of the day.
Let's see, strictly going by looks, I'll say
The DTS has cheapened the Caddy line.
The 3, 5 and 7 series have cheapened the BMW line.
All R&R have cheapened the Rolls line.
All Bentley have cheapened the Bentley line.
.
.
.
You should get my point by now.
By the way, the IS wasn't designed to attract buyers in your age so it's no surprise you find it unattractive. However, it is a huge hit for the sub-30 buyers. Heck, my boss is in his 40s and currently drives a Camry, he also has a hot for the new IS.
Wrong, MB is a Luxury Marque. They don't compete with the such like Honda, Toyota, Ford and Chevy.
Lexus is the luxury line for Toyota. A big difference.
Wrong again, Lexus is Toyota's answer for MB and BMW. whatever MB and BMW offers, Lexus should have a fighter for it, for example:
entry-level: BMW - 3er, MB - C-class, Lexus - IS
midsize: BMW - 5er, MB - E-class, Lexus - GS
fullsize: BMW - 7er, MB - S-class, Lexus - LS
Hope this should clear up your miss understanding.
I don't think they were after the big Tuna Boat Cadillac buyers.
They are going after all the buyers whom are looking for better value luxury cars. Where it's the MB, BMW or Caddy they don't care.
In 1990 I do not believe that people that bought a Mercedes were considering a Cadillac.
True, but now Caddy is in competition with both BMW and Lexus. As well as MB.
The base CTS can be had starting at well under $30K.
MB has the entry line in C-class.
Yes but it is just a hair more expensive than the CTS and a lot smaller.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I wouldn't call anything Mercedes sells "entry Level" unless the word "luxury" is tacked on the end.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That may be true. Though I don't remember BMW being very popular in the 1980s. I was taken back the first time I saw a cheapo Mercedes. Maybe MB needed to start a cheap car company to compete with Toyota. Or Maybe that is why they bought Chrysler. I don't see Cadillac in that mix. The only reason I even gave Cadillac a second thought was my search for the nicest SUV. I found their cars to be a lot nicer than my last Cadillac, a 1948 4 door with a big flathead V8 engine.
I do, it was very popular with the younger up and coming set.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Looks to me Lexus has a winner in the new IS because couple years ago that 30-year-old-broker-type will get a 3-series without looking back...
When you try to attract one set of buyers you many times alienate your customer base.
The older folks will not be interested in a C, 3er or IS and the younger folks won't be interested in a S, 7er or LS. That's just the way it is.
By contrast Cadillac had a tuna boat image. They have added a very popular SUV that is popular across all age groups. It was a plus for them.
And you are right. This has nothing to do with Cadillac. They are different kind of breed. I do not see much cross shopping.
I didn't make it super clear but some of the brokers operating in the area may have a public area for customers but also do phone selling--as in some of those questionable scams you used to read about.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
These are all "affordable" to the market they are after. :P
Perhaps cross-shoppers of Lexus, Acura, Lincoln and the Benz & Lexus SUVs--I could see that.
I sure hope Cadillac isn't competing directly with BMW. If they were banking on those conquest sales, they'd be slaughtered.
I realize nothing could be more boring for a younger person than to hear about the "old days" but Cadillac was really highly regarded in our culture---owning one was the object of outright jealousy and the average man on the street was genuinely impressed to see one. Why? Because they were conspicuously opulent compared to the shabby everyday cars most people drove (go look at a 1954 Chevy or Ford and then a 1954 Cadillac Eldo) and because the average working person couldn't possibly own one unless they stole it or stole money to get it.
So the "currency" of luxury cars today is vastly inflated.
Amen, Lemko!! You're right on. The DTS is also my favorite Cadillac as well, despite the FWD layout. It's also by far, the roomiest and most comfortable Cadillac made. There is still a market for that. I'm not sure it isn't the best looking as well. Frankly, you can't tell a CTS from an STS unless you're an expert.
The basic problem that I see at Cadillac is this: In the 60's and even the 70's the DeVille was a mid-level Cadillac, with a somewhat cheaper Calais at the bottom. The Fleetwood Sixty Special (also Brougham) was top of the line (setting aside the limos). The Eldorado was a Fleetwood model too, although started out as a series 62 I think. So the basic line up was Calais, deVille, Fleetwood models.
When the Seville was introduced as a "small" Cadillac in the mid-70s, it was a Fleetwood model. So the Seville was a top of the line model. Cadillac did have some FWD Fleetwood models until the mid-90s when I think that they dropped them making the deVille the primary large sedan. The RWD Fleetwood (the old sixty special) was dropped at the end of 1996, which sort of put the Seville at the top of the line. However, the deVille models were expanded to include a luxury trim edition (DHS). The FWD Seville was replaced with the RWD STS on the premium sigma platform, which might make it top of the line, but with a V6 standard and no wood trim, the base STS is really more of a low end Cadillac not unlike the base DeVille (DTS). The V8 STS pricing gets quite expensive with the performance options, but this does not make it a top of the line model, as the interior is still much the same as the base V8 model.
My point is this: Cadillac does not really have a top of the line sedan any more. I think that they should try to develop something similar to the old Fleetwood Sixty Special. Of course they might try adding a sedan in the same class as the old series 80 or 90 models, but I am not sure that Cadillac has the resources (someone who knows how) to do that.
Even the BMW 318Tii was a flop. The Mercedes C230K Coupe? Same deal. If you are trying to position yourself as a luxury make, then you need to avoid this segment at all costs.
So Cadillac has no small car - they skipped right up to the 5/E/ES segments in the U.S. And trust me - they don't want to go the small route. Would you actually buy a Saab-illac? Of course you wouldn't. And, GM has Saab to fill that segment - effectively you get a BLS with different sheetmetal and no degredation to Cadillac's image with the new Saab 5 series.
I agree that the 318ti and C230K Coupe are flops but TSX and A3 looks pretty good to me. Also, the success stories of the 3er, TL and G speak for themselves as well.
By the way, the ES does not belong in the same segment as the 5 and E.
No, they shouldn't, anymore than Mercedes ever should have gone cheap and made the C Class. Such a dissapointment, starting with the very first one(remember the 190? Egads that car was a joke), right up to the newest one.
GM's only way to survive is to get into niche marketing - and Cadillac is aiming for the 5 series with the new CTS. Bty the look of it, kicking its butt for $10K less. :P
The STS is nearly a 7-series, but much cheaper? Its interior falls short of the 5-series.
Costs less, is more reliable... the new CTS is aimed at the type of person who buys their car and keeps it for 10-12 years. And it's going to make a lot of imports have to do some work, just like Hyundai is - I mean, why buy a Corolla when you can get a Hyundai for a huge amount less if your only goal is to own a commuter-box?
The new CTS's interior will be similar to the current SRX I think. Pictures are not able to transmit a "feel" so it hard to say what the new CTS interior is really like. If they were to offer a luxury upgrade to make the base CTS interior much nicer, then perhaps it could compete with the 5 series. But I think the new CTS will be a very nice car for the money, with a nicer interior than the current one.
Caddy would have one heck of a time competing in that segment. It's probably the most crowded segment right now. Everyone and their uncle (even Hyundai) is throwing their hat in the ring. You're car has to be pretty amazing (or pretty cheap) to have a chance. Lackluster entries get their lunch handed to them (ex. Saab).
Developing a car for that segment that stands out would be risky and expensive.
Actually I think the latest STS interior is a disappointment.
I think that for now, the 9-3 is in a grey area as its on the old Elpsilon platform with the old malibu. Now if GM can give the 9-3 a more powerful v6 turbo(300+hp) and the 2.0t to get 220hp, then caddy could benefit from it.
Another thing about the BLS is that its priced to closely to the CTS. With this new CTS on the way, its price should increase and give the BLS a spot.
If the BLS had the 2.0t w/ 220hp, and was priced at $27k, it would sell here. Hopefully if they do bring the BLS here, it will have a convertible option like the SAAB instead of the wagon.
-Cj