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Crossover SUV Comparison

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    CX-9 - So, so CUV . Very small market, who wants have a fun zoom.....zoom....., while driving with/without family CUV, good options raw, unknown reliability.

    Yeah, who likes fun anyway? Wait... um, I like fun. nxs, do you like fun? I bet nxs likes fun. albook, do you like fun, or no fun? I bet you'd take fun over not-fun anyday! Wait, you need a family CUV, too? How about we make a fun CUV? Wait, they already do!

    And, what are raw options?

    In what way is the CX-9's reliability more unknown than the Enclave? They are both brand new vehicles. Your post is lacking in logic (or, even lacking in complete thought). Think things through before you say them, you'll save yourself a lot of backpeddling.

    Enclave - one of the biggets CUV

    And? The most-wanted CUV in America right now is MUCH smaller than the Lambdas. Bigger isn't necessarily better.

    Tahoe Hybrid- big, and nasty truck. Gas station have not built yet across US.

    Nasty? Does it need washing or just have a bad attitude? ;)

    I have NO CLUE what "gas station have not built yet across US" means.
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    Tahoe Hybrid- big, and nasty truck. Gas station have not built yet across US.

    I'm not referring to the Tahoe that uses Flex fuel; the Tahoe Hybrid is the one that uses the Toyota-like battery, so it can still use regular gas.

    In times where everyone is talking about fuel economy, the Tahoe Hybrid is coming out just at the right time: it's big, it has a 6.0L V8, and it gets better gas mileage than the Enclave. If the Enclave wins, it will be for styling alone, and the fact that it *might* save Buick (personally, GM should let Buick sink in the US and focus on the Asian market, but that's another discussion)
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    I still sit back and laugh at all this zoom zoom fodder and fun performance driving ideas when it comes to piloting a CUV, any of them. They are safe, competant, can get out of their own way and get familys about safely and comfortably. None of them are barca loungers with wheels and handle well for what they are in consideration of curb weights from 4-5k lbs so searching for something more than that in any of these I find rather moot exercise.

    The other irony I find around these CUV's are the 19/20" rims that imply performance and all they do is degrade ride and add weight exactly where you don't want it in light of vanity. I don't think they upgrade the brakes either in light of the additional weight so all this implied upgraded performance more often than not comes at a perfomance penalty and actually costs you more money for the privilege.
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    But but but...the new MDX was track tested at the Nurburgring! And it doesn't just have plain old AWD...it has **Super Handling** AWD! Doesn't that just scream of a Fast and Furious movie?

    Sarcasm aside, I think there is a market for more sporty SUVs, but basically no-one will be taking these to the track, even with SH-AWD or Zoom-zoom factor. As for poseur status with bigger rims, well...that's a matter of preference. I upgraded my 17" wheels to 18" on my Audi, and couldn't be happier (and they actually weigh about 1 lb less than the 17 inchers!)
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    you did it correctly by losing the weight as opposed to A LOT of others out there who don't understand the premise of unsprung weight vs. shiny and big just because...

    and as for the "that's a matter of preference" it's also a matter of safety.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Problem with the Tahoe/Yukon is very old interior design. I know they were updated in 07, but they could still have applied CUV passenger design parameters to a body on frame, towing monster SUV. Had they done that, the Tahoe hybrid would have won in a walk. I haven't been in a new Tahoe but from first hand experience the third row in the new Suburban aka a BIG Tahoe is second rate compared to the lambdas or the Taurus X.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    "I have NO CLUE what "gas station have not built yet across US" means."

    I refered to Tahoe Flex fuel.
    Yet, you, nxs, albook are not all people. Look at sales, lambdas almost in triple in sale over CX-9. I don't care what edmunds, motor trend said, people looking how they will use this car. Yet, all magazines are making reviews by journalist. All journalism controls by media-advertising, meaning who is paying money. I used to work for advertising agency, and the agency will plan an advertising campaign. So, I agreed with early post of someone, the sales showing a popularity of the product. In the most case “most sales’ = BEST. GM’s lambdas are best in the class (Safety, price, capacities, options, ride, $ deals from the dealer).
  • mchappellmchappell Member Posts: 52
    "In the most case 'most sales’ = BEST"

    Actually, in most cases, most sales = BIGGEST.

    I'm sure GM has an order of magnitude more dealers, employees, and manufacturing capacity than Mazda. If GM is able to put 10x more vehicles on the ground than Mazda, logic dictates that they will, in all likelihood, have 10x more vehicles in consumers' hands.

    Mark

    P.S. We looked at the CX-9 and Outlook. I preferred the CX-9's comfort and handling. However, there were two deal-killers - the large center stack/console ate up a lot of front seat space, and the 2nd row was a touch too narrow for day-to-day use for our family (two carseats and a teenager). Ended up in an Outlook XR AWD, which has been relatively trouble-free (so far).

    P.P.S Was at the dealer early this week. I cannot believe the number of Outlooks they have in stock. Rows and rows. When we bought in March, they had, maybe 15 in stock. There had to be at least 50 there now. I'm not sure if that's good or bad for Saturn/GM.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "most sales" = most sales... simply

    we had this debate... you might want to review posts from a few days past.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    "We looked at the CX-9 and Outlook. I preferred the CX-9's comfort and handling. However, there were two deal-killers - the large center stack/console ate up a lot of front seat space"
    By the chance, do you think CX-9 center console is over design? It looks good, when you're not using while driving, but I have tried to use while driving and it confused me, I couldn't find right thing what I was looking for. I have to look very close to find, so pay less attention to driving.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    have you read the only last part of my post? .

    i said early: "So, I agreed with early post of someone, the sales showing a popularity of the product. In the most case “most sales’ = BEST."
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    and if you read any of my posts you'll find I disagree...

    if you want to review my thoughts on the matter read any of my other posts as I'm not going there again.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    I'm ok with that. The people who trying make a decision between CX-9 or Acadia will have two or more different opinions.
    The real Q is a Full size (Tahoe, Explorer and ect) or CUV (GM lambdas, CX-9, Highlander and ect.). The mpg in both cases almost same, the difference 1-3 mpg.
    The size almost same, AWD vs 4WD (what's better), both case have comfort seats, but ride different, full size SUV almost same as CX-9 (stiff).
    what do you chose?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This is just my humble opinion, and by the way, this has probably been the most civil debate ever on this thread so far, so let's keep it that way...

    1. 21/22 mpg is with 2WD. 4WD is something like 20/20, good for city, but not highway. Why is that important? Because these are trip cars. Families will go on long trips on the highway, while hybrids thrive in the city. I don't see a lot of Tahoes in urban environments like Washington, DC, they're too big to manuever and park.

    2. At over $50 grand for 4WD, you could buy an Enclave and a Chevy Malibu, and have both of my picks for NACOTY winners. :D

    3. That price point pushes it in to full-on luxury territory, where car mags like C&D will disqualify them (they have a price limit for their 10Best). Remember, these car mags are the ones voting, not us.

    4. No indy rear suspension. And, what volvov mentioned above...

    5. 3rd row doesn't fold flat, in fact it has to be removed completely. There also isn't a foot well for 3rd row passengers. So it loses big points in convenience and comfort for people, which is sort of the point of these CUVs.

    I happen to find the front seats phenomenal, love the interior design/dash, admit it's twice as capable of heavy duty jobs as any CUV, but it's still a brute underneath it all.

    Mostly, though, it comes down to price. Spending over $50 grand on a 4WD to save a little on gas is kinda pointless.

    If they discount it and/or get the price down, it would steal many CUV sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    in consideration of curb weights from 4-5k lbs so searching for something more than that in any of these I find rather moot exercise

    I was trying to make that point in a debate with albook, why didn't you chime in then?

    To be fair, even in this class we see a fairly wide spread in terms of cornering grip. I believe C&D got 0.87 gs for the MDX and only 0.72gs from their last RX.

    Just make sure junior is belted in properly. ;)
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    add weight reduction to improve on/off road performance to that as well as even better mpg while maintaining tow rating and suddenly there is little reason for the CUV market... but I said that a few posts ago.

    I also find your tahoe not seen around dc(i'll expand that to urban centers) more than a little inaccurate. the large format SUV has replaced the town car in cities. I live in chicago and see it and just spent a week in NYC at t'giving(and travel to others) and see them as more and more prevelant for car services. customers I suspect feel more safe, they are similar to a police inteceptor crown vic/town car mpg so that's a wash, drivers sit up higher than the traffic around them and let's not forget the most important part...image.

    the problem with being "green" now is that it's expensive to do it properly, it's predominantly a marketing/image thing that is "in" illustrated effectively by the $50k price tag on the tahoe. You'll know when society fully embraces the idea about being "green" when EVERYONE can afford to do it as opposed to the gentrified system that is in place presently from food to cars to buildings. give us a $10-15k hybrid vehicle a family of 4/5 can use and afford and then you can tell me you are truly making efforts to embrace the idea of being "green". And don't even get me started on the building costs of being "green"... but I digress
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    sorry for not chiming in but I have made those points exactly long ago if you want to review some of my posts from days long gone by.

    and as for securely fastened my daughter loves her recaro child seat that is far as I'm concerned is the best child seat on the planet.(shameless plug - http://www.recarochildseat.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=959&) Only car seat that has been tested for side impacts.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, I do see a lot of Tahoe and Suburban fleets. Here in DC they're used to escort heads of state, not just the President but also the VP, foreign leaders, etc.

    I'm 5 blocks from the White House on Pennsylvania Ave so we see that a lot.

    HILARIOUS. One just drove by.

    OK, the fleet was led be several motorcylce cops (they block traffic on the cross streets), then two Town Cars, then a Suburban, then a couple more motorcycle cops.

    My guess is Bush was in one of the Town Cars. ;)

    The other Town Car was a decoy. The Suburban is probably filled with Secret Service and all their guns. :D

    Any how, while those do stand out considerably, in terms of sheer numbers they represent only a tiny fraction of the automobiles driven in and around DC. In my entire parking garage there are 2 trucks, one full-size pickup and one full-size SUV. Everything else is mid-size or smaller, or a car.

    I agree about the "image" part, 100%.

    In NY nobody drives, just taxis and car services, like you said, so perhaps there are more.

    DC is different - definitely a LOT of commuter cars, I bet less than 1% are full-size trucks/SUVs.

    Any how, back to the Tahoe Hybrid and the NACOTY award, I'm not so sure that fleet use will compell automotive editors to vote for a vehicle, in fact that might even have the opposite effect.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, my digital camera is charged up. Next time I see one of those fleets I'll try to snap a picture. I have a pretty clear view of Pennsylvania Ave from my office.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    thought you were in brazil...LOL

    or are you just trying to throw us off the trail
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    So what do you all think of the 09 Pilot?

    I eagerly await it having had at least only Honda in the fleet for the past 16 years. The current Pilot is looking tired IMHO and if the new one grows just a little bit and gets less trucky styling, we'll check it out.

    We're considering getting a CUV to replace the Odyssey and my wife loves the Honda. I went to the Boston auto show a couple of weeks ago to check them all out.

    My test is how tough and tight the 3rd row is for someone my size - about 5-10 - to get in the back. Yes I won't be riding back there but I have a 10 YO boy and he and his friends aren't getting any smaller. The clear winners to me were:

    the Lamda triplets - well made as well but to me huge on the outside
    the CX-9 but the exterior doesn't appeal to me
    the Veracruz - Hyundai is stepped up it's game.

    The Highlander is pretty nice as well although tight in the back.

    I checked out the Tribeca, XC90, Taurus X and Pilot - nothing new in those.

    The Ford Flex was on display but I couldn't get near it - will check it out in person when it arrives.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm from Brazil, but live in MD and commute to DC. I put Brazil in my profile because of those little flags that would show up (which I no longer see...too bad).

    Any how, our big car stays in the suburbs, where it belongs, and I commute in a tiny little Miata. Small cars make more sense to me in the urban jungle. Better mileage, easier to park, easy to manuever, more fun, space isn't wasted, etc.

    There's no doubt that cars tend to be smaller in the city, bigger in the suburbs, and HUGE when you get to rural areas. At least that's how it is around here.

    I do think the hybrid Tahoe would work for fleets. I don't envision a lot of private consumers buying them for a city commute to DC, however.

    Given this is a political town, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Prius, and when it ricochets off it'll probably hit another Prius. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Check out the Edmunds blog about it...the styling is actually more trucky, macho even.

    It'll be interesting to see what Honda does with it. Will it get bigger, or stay (relatively) small? More car-like, or more truck-capable?
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    pilot rendering I saw has a lot of dodge overdoneness in it...

    sheetmetal will tell the tale though
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True. Honda's sketches tend to be greatly exaggerated.

    We have to stop agreeing. It feels awkward. :D

    Here is the blog entry for the new Pilot:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/3916

    I see influence from the last-generation Jeep Grand Cherokee.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    thank albook for taking the heat this week
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...the styling is actually more trucky, macho even.

    I guess what I meant by less trucky is the square overall shape of the current. The new nose is stronger but the overall styling is rounder IMHO.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I see what you mean. It is more curvaceous.

    Of course, that's just the sketch. Honda always makes those look great.

    Check out the roofline on the sketch of an Accord coupe:

    image

    So imagine that Pilot sketch above watered down just as much.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    the sketch is the easy part... making it ready for manufacture, compliant and at a given price point is where the tough work comes in..
  • scottinkyscottinky Member Posts: 194
    the fleet you speak of always has one of these bad boys with it:
    minigun
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    Thanks. Good clips. Honda will look like MDX.
    ">
  • skausskaus Member Posts: 11
    Hi All
    Yesterday I was 95 miles from home and I had a transmission leak from the filter.
    I lost 3 qts of oil. I replaced the filter and put 3 qts back . The reason I looked under the hood was 2 fold. I kept stalling at my destination and the ABS light was on. The engine would stall only if I applied the brake pedal.

    Six hrs later in panic mode ,having to drive 85 miles back home I found 1 solution.
    Remove fuse from brake and I made it home. If I but the fuse back in and press the brake pedal the engine will die .

    Okay my transmission was soaked with oil. I cleaned off all oil. I checked the wiring harness and it was clean .

    **In front of transmission are 2 sensors or switches.
    If I look at wiring diagram it shows Brake transmission safety interlock ,Brake sense switch and stop light switch all in series. Could one of these be my problem?
    Another thing when I step on brake pedal the dash board left and right signals light up dimly .
    Please let me know what you think. Thanks
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    take it to a mechanic...seems like your post may be better served in another forum. good luck
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, I would copy/paste that post over in the Transmission Traumas? discussion, Skaus. Good luck with it!
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    The other irony I find around these CUV's are the 19/20" rims that imply performance and all they do is degrade ride and add weight exactly where you don't want it in light of vanity. I don't think they upgrade the brakes either in light of the additional weight so all this implied upgraded performance more often than not comes at a perfomance penalty and actually costs you more money for the privilege.

    Oh well- if your in the market for a CUV you're already paying more for a vehicle that is smaller and less spacious than a minivan for performance only a little better. You wanted a better looking vehicle, why not add a little more flash.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Given this is a political town, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Prius, and when it ricochets off it'll probably hit another Prius.

    Not that was funny juice!

    I'm glad you pointed out that sketch of the Accord coupe. I've always thought Honda did a great job, at least recently, of hyping up their new models with those awesome looking sketches then delivering a ho-hum production version. The Accord concepts and sketches looked fantastic, but the production version is awkward looking IMO. I hated the last gen but I'm starting to think it was better proportioned than the new one.

    The next Pilot will come out just when we're ready to lease again but I fear it will be terrible looking, agian IMO, too. If it has a strange front end like the CR-V or MDX then they can keep it and I'll go elsewhere.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    "I fear it will be terrible looking, agian IMO, too. If it has a strange front end like the CR-V or MDX then they can keep it and I'll go elsewhere."

    From spy pictures is looking not bad. The front end look like Pilot now , rear and shape of the roof like MDX.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    "Oh well- if your in the market for a CUV you're already paying more for a vehicle that is smaller and less spacious than a minivan for performance only a little better. You wanted a better looking vehicle, why not add a little more flash."

    This is statement absolutely no make sense, and more important from person, who's defending CX-9. From your statement followed next, that the all luxury car is just a flash. But guess what, if the following your statement, that people who lives in the big houses is also flash. Oh well, let's move to apartment. Why not?
    I've always couldn't understand why people who can't afforded saying a such thing.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    From spy pictures is looking not bad. The front end look like Pilot now , rear and shape of the roof like MDX.

    If you are referring to the spy pics Edmunds and a host of other car sites posted a few months ago then I don't agree with your assessment. Those were at night and were showing a Ridgeline grille (which would be a big mistake IMO) and a somewhat different roofline and greenhouse. Maybe it was more MDX-like, I can't really remember but nevertheless, Honda's SUV/CUV grilles have not been pretty as of late. Having said that, if the production version of the next Pilot looks like what we've seen in the spy pics then it will definitely not look like the sketch we've all see which proves mine and juice's point.
  • celica8celica8 Member Posts: 42
    We just wrapped up a month in our new Enclave, and it is an awesome vehicle. Great in snow, and the heated windshield wash is a saviour in the ice.
    It is much bigger than our BMW X-5 we traded in and the kids love the room, especially the 3rd row. This is the new family car that reminds me of the big wagons my parents had in the 70s. It is great for trips. We can't wait to take a really long trip next summer.
    As an added benefit, we get so many compliments on it. Never happened with the X-5.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    Good choice. Congrat. It's good to hear about compliments you got. GM is back.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Coming from an X-5, I'm sure you're happy with the size. Have you ever owned a minivan because I'm curious about owners moving from a minivan to something like an Enclave.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks, scott.

    Awesome video. Did you see all the empty shells piling up on the roof?

    Any how, after seeing that, and how customized it is, I sort of doubt they'll use a hybrid anything for that application. Think about how much the gun weighs. Hybrid batteries weigh a lot, so I doubt they'd even try to package both in the same car.

    Then again, one big car probably carries that gun, and the other, Secret Service Agents.

    Heated windshields are great. Mirrors too. The mirrors clear even when it's just raining. It aids in visibility big time.

    I won't mention which vehicle in my fleet has those! ;)
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    This is statement absolutely no make sense, and more important from person, who's defending CX-9. From your statement followed next, that the all luxury car is just a flash. But guess what, if the following your statement, that people who lives in the big houses is also flash. Oh well, let's move to apartment. Why not?
    I've always couldn't understand why people who can't afforded saying a such thing.


    What? I shouldn't even respond to this statement. But oh well.

    From a person who's defending the Cx-9? First of all, though I'm not biased, anyone who's read my posts would know I lean more toward the Acadia. Luxury cars? Yep- flash (and some technology). My 545i? Flash. There is nothing wrong with a conventional Camry. Let's move to apartment? I no clue you what saying.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    True. Honda's sketches tend to be greatly exaggerated.

    I think their sketches are pretty close to the designs. A lot more than other brands. The Accord looked pretty close from drawing to concept to production to me(save the really low greenhouse, and 20 inch rims). Of course, the original drawing wasn't that flashy or ou there. Some one said the old Accord looks better than the new one. What?! That's crazy. The new one, while still a bit plain, looks so much better than the boring aawkward old model.

    But anyway, if the Pilot stays as true to this drawing as the Accord stayed to its, then this will be a good looking vehicle. Then again, we've only seen teaser shots- not even the whole vehicle.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "Midwest corn boom could expand `Dead Zone' in Gulf of Mexico

    JEFFERSON, Iowa - Because of rising demand for ethanol, American farmers are growing more corn than at any time since the Depression. And sea life in the Gulf of Mexico is paying the price.

    The nation's corn crop is fertilized with millions of pounds of nitrogen-based fertilizer. And when that nitrogen runs off fields in Corn Belt states, it makes its way to the Mississippi River and eventually pours into the Gulf, where it contributes to a growing ``dead zone'' -- a 7,900-square-mile patch so depleted of oxygen that fish, crabs and shrimp suffocate.

    The dead zone was discovered in 1985 and has grown fairly steadily since then, forcing fishermen to venture farther and farther out to sea to find their catch. For decades, fertilizer has been considered the prime cause of the lifeless spot.

    With demand for corn booming, some researchers fear the dead zone will expand rapidly, with devastating consequences.

    ``We might be coming close to a tipping point,'' said Matt Rota, director of the water resources program for the New Orleans-based Gulf Restoration Network, an environmental group. ``The ecosystem might change or collapse as opposed to being just impacted.''

    Environmentalists had hoped to cut nitrogen runoff by encouraging farmers to apply less fertilizer and establish buffers along waterways. But the demand for the corn-based fuel additive ethanol has driven up the price for the crop, which is selling for about $4 per bushel, up from a little more than $2 in 2002.

    That enticed American farmers _ mostly in Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota _ to plant more than 93 million acres of corn in 2007, the most since 1933. They substituted corn for other crops, or made use of land not previously in cultivation.

    Corn is more ``leaky'' than crops such as soybean and alfalfa _ that is, it absorbs less nitrogen per acre. The prime reasons are the drainage systems used in corn fields and the timing of when the fertilizer is applied.

    The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that up to 210 million pounds of nitrogen fertilizer enter the Gulf of Mexico each year. Scientists had no immediate estimate for 2007, but said they expect the amount of fertilizer going into streams to increase with more acres of corn planted.

    ``Corn agriculture practices release a lot of nitrogen,'' said Donald Scavia, a University of Michigan professor who has studied corn fertilizer's effect on the dead zone. ``More corn equals more nitrogen pollution.''

    Farmers realize the connection between their crop and problems downstream, but with the price of corn soaring, it doesn't make sense to grow anything else. And growing corn isn't profitable without nitrogen-based fertilizer.

    ``I think you have to try to be a good steward of the land,'' said Jerry Peckumn, who farms corn and soybeans on about 2,000 acres he owns or leases near the Iowa community of Jefferson. ``But on the other hand, you can't ignore the price of corn.''

    Peckumn grows alfalfa and natural grass on the 220 or so acres he owns, but said he cannot afford to experiment on the land he rents.

    The dead zone typically begins in the spring and persists into the summer. Its size and location vary each year because of currents, weather and other factors, but it is generally near the mouth of the Mississippi.

    This year, it is the third-biggest on record. It was larger in 2002 and 2001, when it covered 8,500 and 8,006 square miles respectively.

    Soil erosion, sewage and industrial pollution also contribute to the dead zone, but fertilizer is believed to be the chief factor.

    Fertilizer causes explosive growth of algae, which then dies and sinks to the bottom, where it sucks up oxygen as it decays. This creates a deep layer of oxygen-depleted ocean where creatures either escape or die.

    Bottom-dwelling species such as crabs and oysters are most at risk, said Michelle Perez, an analyst with the Washington-based Environmental Working Group. ``They struggle to survive,'' Perez said. ``They can't swim away.''

    Crabbers complained at a meeting in Louisiana earlier this year that they pulled up bucket upon bucket of dead crabs.

    Rota warned that if the corn boom continues, the Gulf of Mexico could see an ``ecological regime change.'' The fear is that the zone will grow so big that most sea life won't be able to escape it, leading to an even bigger die-off.

    ``People's livelihood depends on the shrimp, fish and crabs in these waters,'' he said. ``Already, some of these shrimpers are traveling longer and longer distances to catch anything.''

    Given the market pressure to grow corn, the Natural Resources Defense Council and others argue that the nation needs a comprehensive, federal approach to the problem.

    Among the ideas floated: rules to force farmers to use fertilizers with more care, and the establishment of buffer zones to contain runoff."

    no flex fuel CUV's yet??? no hybrid CUV's yet??? 35mpg is coming...

    still more than a little befuddled by the fact diesel and biodiesel are not being pushed more but that wouldn't have anything to do with corn prices doubling and special interests now would it... nah... fuel supply related to the food supply = not good for anyone...
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Some one said the old Accord looks better than the new one. What?! That's crazy. The new one, while still a bit plain, looks so much better than the boring aawkward old model.


    That was me and it was my opinion. No, I'm not crazy and looks are subjective keep in mind. I once thought the new Accord was better looking than the old but then I saw a few on the street. It has a mid-nineties Saturn sedan/George Jetson bubble greenhouse with a flat hood and trunk look to it. At least the old one was proportionate in its ugliness. This new one is ugly and awkward looking IMO.

    Honda had better do a better job with the next Pilot or I'm not going to get near it. That means don't try to be different with the styling like with the CR-V and MDX. Then keep the center stack button count below 5 million of the same shape, same sized buttons. Oh, and don't make me buy the top trim just to get the DVD system.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    I think new Accord something between Sonata and BMW 5 series. The front and shape of the roof, door look like from the side Sonata, but if you look from behind its' bmw 5 series. Which is nothing wrong, but I have only one Q what kind msg Honda did tried to bring to the customer ? Is it "Buy me - I almost BMW "?
    That's right almost BMW. It's like Lexus almost Mercedes.
    I'm not big fan of japanes cars anyway. I like some cars like Supra. It's descent sporty car.
    Also about CRV - CUV. We had discussion early about ugliest CUV in the market = CRV.
    The first time I've seen it on internet, I thought look good, something different. Then i went test drive and my opinion changed quick. Inside they have tried to make like in the Odyssey -van, outside it's egg. I don't know what designer was thinking about.
    It's ugliest thing in the world.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    accord forum anyone,

    accord forum to a white courtesey telephone...

    forum host answers...

    accord forum you are missing at least two members please come get them...

    I hear they have a beige xmas tree if you can believe it over there...

    happy holidays
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I think you mean this: Honda Accord

    :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
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