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Honda CR-V Pricing, Supply, Demand and Availability
Let's use this discussion area to talk about CR-V pricing, availability, supply, demand, conspiracy theories, etc. so that the Prices Paid & Buying Experiences discussion can stay on-topic.
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tidester, host
sure! that other discussion has been quite the potpourri lately: 2001 odyssey transmissions (i actually own one myself have had nary a problem with it at 100K miles), MSRP pricing, and honda artificially constraining supply so that buyers have to pay MSRP or higher.
The only difference between, "conspiracy" and "business plan" is the presence of mal intent. further blurring the line between the two is that anyone who has ever been on the sh%$ end of a deal might well contend that mal intent existed simply because the other side consciously decided to screw them.
In case it never dawned on you, the Internet is a huge thorn in the side of corporate manfacturers and anyone else who needs to spend a lot of time and money convincing you to buy something, whether it's a product, or an idea. Much to the dismay of such entities, it allows people to report on products and policies that do not pass muster, thereby affecting sales or compliance.
If you're too daft to realize that many of the postings on edmunds and elsewhere are shill-driven, I'm afraid that you'll continue to be duped by what is for others an extremely transparent scheme aimed at influencing the masses.
The saddest thing is that we have less savvy people reading posts by people like isellhondas and assuming that industry people always identify themselves. I think that we would both agree that sans the need for technical breakdowns, the most unbiased, and therefore persuasive statements and/or claims, are obviously those offered by fellow consumers.
The only problem is that you don't know me or anyone else here from Adam.
How long did it take for you to create your user I.D.?
Exactly...
For all you know, anyone here could work for Honda. Conversely, I could work for a competing car company, and I could log on five minutes from now with a different I.D. and post something either positive or negative, depending on whatever make or model I decided to target.
Why don't you read up on the practice of hiring online shills before you resort to the regurgitating the "conspiracy theory" pablum that you've been force fed.
Seriously, try thinking for yourself once in awhile, and if you're incapable of doing so, find a trusted friend who is smarter than you are who will be kind enough to clue you in.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-astroturfing.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/astroturfing
http://trevorcook.typepad.com/weblog/2006/07/pr_bloggers_urg.html
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/62/4
It's like the annual news articles that say "Men's Suits are Back" or "Pearls are the New Fashion Statement" (just saw that one last week). Those are obvious plants by the industry and the media winks because they sell suit or jewelry ads or the reporters are too lazy to write their own stories.
Feel free to email a host about any posts you think are shill ones and we'll have a pretty good idea if the member is "legit" or not. And we do remove shill posts under the "no soliciting" part of the membership agreement, but they really aren't all that common here.
for the most part, most of us here at these forums are here to chat about our CR-Vs and seek some advice here or there. so, why all the hostility and sarcasm? (especially your last post to the host on the prices paid forum but, really, to everyone else too) as far as i can tell, you don't own any hondas...heck, it comes across that you hate hondas!
but, let's just say for a minute that you're right: honda is manipulating their supply of CR-Vs. so now what? people who want one will either pay for one, wait, or buy something else. i don't understanding how your rantings are helping anyone.
If you go back through my posts, they all stem from that first encounter. Each subsequent reply was in response to yet another fool or shill who attmepted to dismiss my statements by characterizing them as paranoid conspiracy theories, etc. Sorry folks, but if someone says red and I say blue and they come back and say purple, don't expect me to say purple when I know that it's blue.
One of my first postings stated that my Accord was the best car that I've ever owned, so no, I'm not a Honda hater.
As for the CRV, if the differential problem exists, my advice is for everyone to hold of on buying until it comes out in an official statement from Honda. If you believe the statements elsewhere in this forum, such a problem and response from Honda and its dealers would make buying a 2007 CRV foolhardy at best.
My advice is to wait until it's confirmed or denied, so at leaast you'll know that Honda will address any differential problems without protest and without feigning knowledge.
In the meantime, holding off, especially if there is a problem, will cause the prices to come down.
anyway, back to pricing. i suppose that honda's practice of maintaining only a 30-day supply of cars (less than half that maintained by GM and ford) allows honda to not only keep their costs down but to also maintain a higher selling price. i still don't think that's so much for the dealers' benefit as much as it is just good, efficient business practice while helping maintaining the top resale values that hondas enjoy.
In January 2006 the numbers were 9,325 CR-Vs and 9,382 RAVs sold.
So, explain this to me. Honda sells cars at invoice to INDEPENDANTLY OWNED Dealers. The only money Honda sees is from the Invoice pricing.
How does artificially tightening supply, and dealer's demand from MSRP benefit Honda corporate? What am I missing here?
The more vehicles Honda sells to dealers (at invoice), more revenues, more profit for Honda. By restricting supply, Honda would sell less vehicle at Invoice to dealers, and will lower its revenues, and profit.
Whatever dealers choose to charge does not go back to Honda. Please enlighten me.
Thank you in advance.
We know that Honda can manage automobile supply. If demand is low, or CRV's are in high supply everywhere, Honda can idle plants or curtail work shifts to bring supply into line. If demand is low, or CRV's are in high supply in one area of the U.S., Honda can shift distribution to other parts of the country, or even parts of the world where the cars are more likely to sell due to market and/or economic reasons.
As for all of this talk of Honda not caring what the dealer sells the car for, it is utterly ridiculous. Under the current dealership method of selling cars, Honda needs to keep its dealerships (retailers) in buisiness in order to sell its products. Say for instance that after all holdbacks, rebates, incentives, etc., etc., Honda currently sells CRV's to its dealers at 17K. under this scenario, how long do you think a dealer would continue to buy additional CRV's for 17K if he could only sell them for 17.5K, especially if they were not selling fast enough to avoid excess accrual?
Here's the deal... If you suddenly have dealerships chock full of CRV's, the price will drop unless the dealership can sell them quickly. There is a saturation point for every product, especially when a large number of alternative products exist (any other automobile that might fit the needs of the user). If the dealers can't make their customary/necessary profit on a particular model, Honda must reduce the cost of that model to dealers through whatever means necessary (manufacturer's rebate, etc.) in order to make sure that their product sells.
"Honda must reduce the cost of that model to dealers OR CONSUMERS through whatever means necessary (manufacturer's rebate, etc.) in order to make sure that their product sells."
It seems from reports from another Edmunds forum that a lot of Honda representatives have pleaded ignorance of the problem when asked. I can't imagine that knowledge of such a problem could possibly escape the attention of anybody at any dealership, but I guess that we'll just have to take their word for it.
A little help here? Maybe a Honda employee or marketing subcontractor on this board can clear up whether this apparent lack of knowledge would be a result of a poor communication between Honda and its dealers, or poor communication between the dealers and their employees.
Hopefully, all of the new arrivals have been repaired in the factory by Japanese technicians who might be more familiar with the new engineering of the redesigned CRV's powertrain and proper manufacturing specifications than some union mechanic at a local dealership.
I'm sure that at some point they will all be coming out of the factory without the rear differential problem, but for now, can anybody tell me if there is any way for us to know the exact date when a particular CRV was manufactured? If one could ascertain this, he could at least have a fighting chance at buying one of the CRV's that came out of the factory without the problem.
I would also hope that those sitting on lots are being repaired before they are sold. I for one would be pretty angry if in a rush to unload inventory, a Honda dealership somehow failed to mention the problem and sold me a CRV with the defect, and then called up after they already had my money in hand to inform me that I needed to make a trip to the dealership in order to have the rear differential replaced.
As for the numbers of CR-Vs that are in dealerships in the NYC area, most of them don't have or just a few (mostly in the EX-L trim). But it really depends on the dealership you go. His dealership only has the demo model on the lot. The CR-Vs which he has sold lately have been ones in a shipment that should arrive sometime this week. He said that the ones that are unsold at the time of delivery are sold pretty quickly afterwards. The 07 CR-Vs are really in demand in the area.
On the other hand, these forums contain hundreds of comments from new CR-V owners about many things that have nothing to do with this "problem." It would seem that their differentials are, so far, problem free.
These forums offer lots of practical information. They also, unfortunately, let people make wild claims, such as "Soon to be Recalled CR-V."
I own a new CR-V. So far, and try as I have, I can't get the differential to do anything, or sound any way, other than normal. For the few, and it seems to be a very small number, that are having problems, I wish them the best in getting things fixed. But it just may be that dealers know nothing about this problem because it's not much of a problem.
I have been driving my CR-V EX 4WD since 10/03/06 and
I do not have this differential problem.
That said, there is no way for me to quantify the scope of the problem, only to quantify the potential scope of my own personal exposure and subsequent aggravation by reading some of the horror stories related by others. The bottom line is that if I'm going to hand over cash for a vehicle, I'm going to minimize the chance that I get stuck with one that is going to give me problems.
Furthermore, I live in LA, and though I don't know what Honda dealerships generally require in terms of mechanic's qualifications, I do know that many of the mechanics working at other shops across SoCal are not only uncertified, but speak little English as well. I would hope that Honda requires that certified mechanics be used in all Honda dealerships, but even if this is the case, I wouldn't trust the majority of certified American mechanics in the U.S. to do as good of a job on a newly designed CRV's complicated differential as much as I would trust a properly matched and/or installed and/or fluid-bathed differential coming out of a Japanese Honda factory.
So am I to assume from your question that you think the problem was:
1. The result of the wrong fluid being placed in some CRV's;
2. A manufacturing error affecting a limited number of CRV's;
3. An engineering error resulting in the installation of improperly designed drivetrains in a limited number of CRV's; or
4. A problem with no known cause that magically disappears after one has the "wrong" fluid (along with the rear differential) replaced?
As for your differential sounding "normal," are you saying that it sounds like it always has, or that it sounds just like the differential in a properly functioning CRV?
Again, check out hondasuv.com. Different people have apparently been given different reasons for what seems to be the same problem, so if that sits well with you, great, but as for me, I've never looked good in rose-colored glasses.
1. Do you live in a warm-weather state; and
2. How is your hearing acuity and/ot vibrational sensitivity?
On the other site, for every person claiming to have a differential problem (I counted 3 after surfing 4-5 subject headings) there were about 20-30, mostly repetitious, posts from people asking and worrying about the problem.
As to my assumptions, I've made none. I haven't seen enough factual evidence to assume anything, other than possibly a lot of people seem to be worried about something that has, as far as I can tell, effected very few people.
Meanwhile, Honda continues to sell 15,000 or so CR-Vs each month and I see no evidence of a design or general assembly problem. When there is I will quickly become a believer.
In addition, many 2002-2004 5 speed units suffered failure of one gear due to lack of lubrication so there was a recall to route oil to this gear. This oil jet recall for some 5-speed automatic transmissions did not address or solve the main cause of breakdown. As in the similar 5 speed transmissions of the Acura TL, Acura CL and MDX, failure of the transmission's third clutch pack, blockage of internal transmission fluid flow by large amounts of clutch debris, and other issues have continued to cause transmission failures even after the oil jet recall.
I've seen Honda's worst. In addition to its culmination in the form of a terrible trade in offer, the transmission in my nearly 80-year-old father's Odyssey was replaced THREE times in 90K miles, and on one occasion, barely got him home before it completely died.
I have stated before that the best car that I ever owned was my old Accord, but I question whether we are now dealing with the same kind of company that built cars that could be expected to routinely reach 150K miles or more before needing major overhauls.
This is the reason that I'd want to make sure that I got a CRV that came straight from Japan with all issues addressed, but the fact is that after all I have read, at this point I'll probably let the info keep rolling in for the next several months before I decide whether or not to buy a 2008 model CRV.
Who knows... Maybe I'll change my habits to meet Honda's. I've always paid cash, but maybe I'll use a short-term lease next time. In that way I can hopefully drop off the vehicle before it becomes a financial liability.
we have a 2001 odyssey with just over 100,000 miles and the ONLY problems we've had with it are the passenger side power door and the light for the clock on the dash burned out.
the rear diff on our 2007 CR-V AWD sounds normal to me too.
Furthermore, when my father and I looked at other makes, we were repeatedly told (in some cases apologetically) that trade in was going to be extremely low due to the fact that the transmission nightmares of the Odyssey are well known throughout the automobile industry.
The bottom line is that we could have gotten as much in trade for for a decent 2001 Civic as we we were offered for his semi-loaded loaded Odyssey.
Why on earth would you buy a new CR-V? You will never be happy.
You obviously made a decision to buy the CRV over a Chevy, Ford, etc. due to your perception that it was a better buy. My decisions just go one or two steps further. Some people are happy to buy right away and hope for the best, but that's not the way that I conduct my personal business.
To each his own...
If the next few waves of 2007 CRV's pass muster with the public, I'll be buying a 2008.
That sounds like a factor likely to affect "demand" so I guess it's sort of on-topic.
tidester, host
Now try to sell it for that.
You know, when I was a kid, despite the fact that I played baseball, I never collected baseball cards. Why you ask? Well, I remember listening to other kids telling me that they had bought valuable baseball cards under book value. They always seemed so pleased, but all that I could think of was, "Why do these kids think that Mike Schmidt's rookie card is worth $300 when they were able to buy it for $75 from a baseball card dealer?
FYI, Blue Book values rarely come close to actual values. This is because Kelley Blue Book publishes two different guides, one for dealers, which prints wholesale prices, and one for consumers, which has retail prices (and is therefore of little help in determining what your car is worth to the dealer). Plus, at Kelley's Web site, you can look up trade-in figures that, even for a car in excellent shape, are below the dealer's lowest figure (the wholesale price). So even if the dealer gives you the best Blue Book value, there's a built-in profit if he turns around and sells the car for wholesale.
Besides, Kelley Blue Book is an industry publication, and its loyalties are less to consumers than to dealers," Stephen Henson, vice president of marketing and business development at Kelley Blue Book, argues that the spread between trade-in and wholesale values is accounted for by any expenses the dealer incurs in readying the car for sale. Nonetheless, the best way to estimate your car's value is to look at newspaper classifieds to check on the asking prices of vehicles similar to yours. Chances are that the actual going rate will be lower than these asking prices, so depending on your local market, you'll need to be able to gauge the relative value by the number of similar vehicles for sale in your area, as well as the time that they remain for sale before being sold.
My advice? Look to eBay for a more accurate assessment of your car's value.
But back to your advice... I could look at the Blue Book value of the car all day, and quote it to every dealer in town, but that and four bucks will only get me a medium ice blended mocha with whipped cream at Starbucks.
"Sell it yourself for more than the dealers offered," you say?
That would be a great idea if I was raised to think that it would be okay to sell a nice looking car with a horrendous and enduring engineering problem to some poor uniformed buyer. Luckily, my family won't be put in a precarious financial situation because of a low trade in value, but I feel badly for anyone who can't weather such a loss so easily.
Then again, I guess that I could always come up with a sales tactic like this:
"Hey, this car has had its transmission replaced three times and is beginning to show signs that it needs a fourth replacement. We'll be happy to have it replaced again before the class action suit warranty extention settlement mileage is reached, but 30,000 miles or so after it's been replaced, you'll be on your own and looking at at least five grand to have it replaced and working for the next 30,000 or so miles."
Oh yeah, I already did.
I wonder how many of the people seeing an ad like that will rethink the purchase of an Odyssey?
#2.Hearing acuity is normal & vibrational sensitivity is above normal.
Also there are 3 drivers in my household and none of them have noticed any differential problems.
Do you have any more questions?.
Wow, only $4 for a blended mocha! Where the heck do you live? :surprise: :P
You obviously do not live in California, so let me break it down for you. Many shops employ undocumented workers from countries with low literacy rates, so even if a manufacturer ships manuals in every language under the sun, it follows that there will still be more of a problem with full comprehension that is less likely to occur with a certified mechanic. This is not to say that undocumented people are stupid, nor that they are not better mechanics than you or I, however, when given the choice between such a person and a certified mechanic who by definition has been professionally trained and who has also passed a certification examination, I think that the rational preference should be clear.
Are they more than that now? I've been going to Coffeebean for the last couple years, but I thought that the Starbucks reference would be more appropriaate seeing as we have people from all over the country on this board.
You'd think with all of these people chiming in about the reliability of their 2001 Odyssey's, we'd have been able to get one of the few good once in four tries.
Oh well... Hopefully the 5th time will be the charm...
Years ago I purchased a Chevrolet. I had problems with it so when it was time for a new vehicle I moved to a different manufacturer. I had no problems with that make so I kept buying from them.
You did not have that experience. I suppose based on data you could still feel comfortable buying that make again, but you also seem to be going in with negative feelings. Hence my "never happy" commment.
The Saturn is still going strong, as is the truck, but the need for the truck is beginning to wane, so we are looking into smaller SUV's. Given Honda's past reliability (Odyssey excluded) I was hoping to see them come back strong with the new CRV, but at this point, reliability remains to be seen, and the reported/alleged mandatory rear differential replacements on the early shipments should give anyone with sense a reason for pause.
Let's see where the 2007's are in 15,000 miles. If there is a flood of new probelms reported on the Web between now and 2008, I'll be buying a RAV4. If Honda cleans up the CRV in the next release, I'll be buying from them, but only if they accept what will amount to a deep discounting of their asking price.
That's a first, I believe.
What were the circumstances of Honda's death?
Actually, I only go to Coffee Bean, I was making a joke. Ultimate Mocha, anyone?
Honda dying? Don't they mean Ford?
Any tips on what I should look before taking delivery?
thanks.
I think in some countries where talking on the cell while driving with one hand is illegal (UK? Australia?), there are many after market choices.
Many states have similar laws, NY, NJ, CT, CA....
I think CA is proposing a law that would ban smiking and eating behind the wheel as well.
The cell phone law takes effect in 2008. I haven't heard of any proposals for smoking or eating. If you live in CA, you should know that people also fix their makeup, hair, and read the paper while driving!
However, there is always that BT headset or wired headset - vehicle BT is nice but not necessary. I myself use a BT speaker hands free device.