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Comments
Sport33: I was hoping to minimize my probability of having a problem by choosing Subaru. Apparently, my luck must not be so good :P What makes this more unnerving is that this Forester is my first car I've ever purchased (used or new). I don't want to have horrible memories of my first car!
--Mac
I had about 2000 miles on my 5spd when it started to lose power (running on 3 out of 4 cylinders).
Before this catastrophe the check engine light
would come on sporadically, and gas mileage had been poor albeit improving. Both seem pretty common with Subarus based on posts here on Edmunds. There must be more Subaru owners out there that have had the more severe problem with the "wheezing" and power loss? I'm also curious about any long term consequence this temporary problem had on my motor.
Also, the Forester is great so far! I love everything about this car, esp. the handling, moonroof, comfort, cd changer...I could go on.
Thanks for any advice you might have,
Matt S.
P.S. I think my dad's getting a WRX...cool!
And also the inmates therein,
But carry'n on about yer Forester,
Surely ain't no kind-a sin.
A brand new Soob L in my garage now resides,
(An automatic and a nice shade of blue.)
And about it I'm plumb tickled,
And wanta share my pleasure wiff you.
Wyomites can read! Although spelling not strong,
An we can even eyeball yer Forester chat.
And the stuff that ya said went right to my head,
So now I own a Forester - and that's that!
You guys was tell'n no lies about this fine little rig,
She corners like a dream and zips down the road like a champ.
There's plenty of room for my over-six-foot frame
And I fit in without a cramp.
I figgered my old four-wheel pickup would be my salvation,
In this land where the snow piles up tall,
And the distances twix towns is extreme,
But the Soob has proved that it can handle snow wiff no problem a-tall.
So thanks fer tha help in this fine message board,
For sending me in the right direction.
From driving old pickup trucks,
I've pulled off a major defection.
The Forester's a damned fine rig f'sure,
And yer comments convinced me to buy.
Now I'm a satisfied Soob owner,
And will likely be till I die.
For long distance driving, cruise control can reduce overall fuel usage if the road is consistently graded and predictable for traffic. However, if the road conditions vary, for example with upgrades and down, you can achieve better mileage by using the throttlle yourself.
This is because you can read the road conditions ahead, accelerating slightly in advance of increasing grades, maintaining momentum and stopping the car bogging down, and backing off as you hit the top of a hill.
The cruise control reads the conditions behind the event. You read them before it.
In normal conditions, the difference is insubstantial and the reduced stress from using cruise (and reduced risk of speeding) make it worthwhile. You may find more savings from checking that your tyre pressures are correct for your load, keeping your overall speed down a bit to enjoy the view, and using the highest grade fuel you can find.
The fuel use point is particularly interesting. Here in Australia, we have standard unleaded at 93 RON which gives me about 15% worse economy than premium unleaded at 99 RON. The performance is also markedly better with 99RON fuel.
Hope you enjoy the trip. By the way, what is the PhD about?
Cheers
Graham
Has anyone out there put an aftermarket moonroof in a Forester S?
Q. #2...was the moonroof SIZE limited
by the roof rack runners? (Not the raised outside runners, but the 4, flat-against-the roof, inner runners)....did they need to be cut back to allow for a bigger moonroof?
Q. #3...what happened to the overhead
light when you have an aftermarket moonroof installed...can it be moved back and still be functional?
Q. #4...the dealer tells me he can have leather seats installed in the
S Premium, but that will make the side airbags in-operable. He also says it will cost $2000!! Where, as an 'option', installed in the factory, leather seats are only around $1050.
(I'm still trying to decide between an 'S' or an 'S+'!!!) Why is this so difficult!!!
'S'...a. the color I want
b. the leather seats I want
c. no moonroof
'S+'..a. the moonroof
b. no leather seat option
c. doesn't offer the color I want
If anyone could tell me they have had
a great, aftermarket moonroof installed in a Forester 'S'...and that the moonroof has no problems
(i.e....LEAKS!)...I'd be sold on the 'S' hands down.....
Juice???????????
Anyone??????????
Our criteria was extensive: must be AWD (we were not willing to compromise on this issue so that eliminated the "shift-on-the-fly" and "on-demand" 4WD units; we expected (and get) at least 23-25 mpg; it had to be crash-worthy (we've been involved in way too many accidents caused by other people); it had to be adaptable to each of the four possible family drivers with no learning curve difficulties for each; and it couldn't cost a ton (had to be less than $23K - our's was $22.8K plus the transportation - with every option (less gauge pack) and installed diff protector and trailer hitch); it had to be "reasonably" priced in the auto insurance market (we saw a drop of $400/year from the 87 Jeep and we added additional coverage); it had to handle a kayak, a trailer, several all-terrain bikes, a lot of camping gear; and be flawless in snow, ice and rain; able to do some light, off-road pack-ins; and finally it couldn't be anemic, performance-wise, with all the other "stuff" mentioned above packed in it or attached to it which would then also include our family. The Forester was a solid check in all of those categories and has been so much more than we expected. It has been a totally "fun" vehicle and we always remark about how nimble it is and a kick to drive.
As soon as we hear that the snow is coming down here in SoCal, we head for Julian and Idyllwild or Big Bear. This January (during the deluge) we were up in Idyllwild in 12-18" of heavy, untouched snow and on more that one occasion, I towed other vehicles (including a Ford F150) who couldn't get going on an icy hill, about two miles out to the main road. No problems getting there, around or back out again. The Forester was totally composed and in its element all of the time complements of its AWD and the extra benefit of the limited slip rear differential on the S and S+. It's a real snow-go vehicle and puts a big grin on your face all of the time.
The Forester rear seat can be cramped for big adults (my two daughters are 5-7 and 5-10) and we just bump the front seats ahead one notch and that makes enough room for them (there's plenty of room under the seats for their feet so it's mostly the knee room that we work on. Even after the 250 mile round trip to Big Bear, they both had enjoyed the ride and had no complaints so I guess you need to gauge what works for you. I like the Outback but my wife liked the Forester and I have to say it has certainly met all our expectations. IMHO it was the better of the two vehicles for our needs.
When it comes grocery time we tend to shop for the month so it holds alot of stuff, even with the rear seat in the "up" position. I regulary load up at Home Depot and haul all kinds of stuff (firewood, potting soil, picks, shovels, compost <lots of compost>, etc., so it regularly gets a heavy workout from me too. One of my favorite features is the head room (I knocked the top third of my head getting back into the Jeep after riding around in the Forester). The front seats are firm, supportive, articulate up/down, back and forth until you get the "zone" for your driving style and, with the lumbar support, are great for long trips.
I used the Subaru of America web-site http://www.subaru.com/home.html to locate all the Soob dealers in a 150 mile radius of San Diego and sent their Internet sales person a personal email asking them for a quote. Just put your zip code in the upper right corner of the web-site to search for a dealer. By far the fastest and most on-target response came from John Peace at Bob Baker Chevrolet/Subaru (619-440-0404)in El Cajon. He responded immediately and was more than willing to work with me to accessorize our Forester to our specs and within what I felt were some pretty stringent, self-imposed price parameters. I had done all of my homework here on Edmunds.com so I had a pretty firm price together. If you do contact them, please feel free to mentioned my name. There's nothing in it for me, I just told him that I was very impressed by his attitude and "hassle-free" approach and that I would recommend him to any who asked. You can e-mail me at hrs1_sdiego@juno.com if you have any further questions. Always glad to help out another San Diegan. Good luck and let me know how it goes. Sorry for the long post.
Br, Dale
ps: I intend to go drive an H6, VDC just to make some comparisons but for right now, the H4, Auto Forester S makes the A+ grade. And don't forget the "smile" factor
Although SOA doesn't endorse it, there are a number of leather installers that supposedly will guarantee that their installation won't affect the side air bags (just make sure you get it in writing). It will certaily cost more than the factory job so $2,000 isn't totally out of line. You can probably shop around and get something closer to $1500 (or less) but make sure you see samples of their work. As the old adage goes...you get what you pay for.
Hope this helps. Now as to which model to buy...that's a tough one. I'd probably go for the S with aftermarket moon roof option.
Let us know what you decide and how it turns out and good luck!
-Frank P.
Kathy
I wrote about this a long time ago, but FYI, you can get an almost flat sleeping surface in your Forester.
1. Move the front seats all the way up and remove head rests.
2. Recline the front seats all the way -- the top of the seats should be clost to the front edge of the rear seat cushions.
3. Remove the rear headrests and fold the rear seat down.
It's not a perfectly flat surface, but it certainly gives you enough room to sleep in your Forester in a pinch.
Ken
juice-thanks for the tips on the test drive/inspection. Found a couple of items that the dealer took care of (before I signed the papers).
By the way, for those of you looking at a Forester and with kids. I put my three in the back -- two year-old in a car seat on the side, five year-old in the middle, and 10 year-old on the other side -- and they had plenty of room back there. Would be a little tight if they were all teens, but perfect for those ages. It's going to be a great car for weekends to grandma's.
-Dan
Liberty Subaru here in NJ...... (www.LibertySubaru.com)
actually, I was in the process of e-mailing 'low ball' invoice offers to about 6 local Soobie dealers, and before I had even gotten to #5 on my list....I had an e-mail back from
Liberty...ACCEPTING my below invoice
offer!!!! (Yikes!) I got EVERYTHING I wanted...BLUE RIDGE PEARL color, tail
pipe cover, arm rest extension, air filter w/ cover, upgraded security system, woodgrain kit, leather seats...PLUS they will be installing a power moonroof before delivery!!!
Granted, the moonroof will NOT be as large as in the "Premium Pkg.":-(, but, seeing as SOA can't give me the color I want and leather WITH that huge moonroof.....I must settle for
aftermarket size! Thank you Frank, for your input.....to me the color and leather seats were just more important, I guess, so I agree with you there!! And thank you to everyone on this list...as I said before, I have been reading this list for MONTHS, and your input was invaluable in my decision to GET a Forester, what to get IN it, HOW to get it, etc! I'm Sooooooooooo exhited, I can't STAND it! I'll let you know when my baby arrives! Kris in NJ :-)
My opinion is to wait. Added Security and any other "extended" warranty can be added at any time during the original factory warranty. Since you have 3 years or 36K miles, you have plenty of time to decide. Enjoy the Forester, see how it fares and then decide when the time comes.
From a financial standpoint, buying the extended plan now will cost you not only the several thousand $$s but also the opportunity cost of that money.
Ken
Kris- Congrats also. Sounds like you'll have your cake and be able to eat it too! Can I ask how much the power moon roof is going to cost?
Diane- The pros and cons of extended warrantees have been discussed in depth in other forums (I unfortunately don't remember which or when). For a vehicle like the Forester, it basically boils down to whether the added peace of mind is worth the cost. In either case, Ken's recommendation to wait until you're closer to the 3 year/36k mark is a good one. FYI: $546 is a pretty good deal if it's for the genuine Subaru plan. I've read where dealers have asked $1,200 for it (though the price is always negotiable). My philosophy has always been to self-insure. Yes you assume some risk in the event of a costly repair, but then if extended warrantees weren't such moneymakers, dealers wouldn't push them so hard.
-Frank P.
I have noticed that the forester consumes substantially more gas in these conditions. I guess I should expect that knowing that when a 4wd vehicle goes into its 4wd drive mode it uses much more gas.
Does anyone know what kind of mileage they get in these conditions?
~Laurie
Anne: CT prices can be a bit higher than other regions. You should still be able to get near invoice.
Mac: I'd suspect the ECU, O2 sensor, or injector.
John: could it be a loose exhaust heat shield? Ask a dealer to check those. My Escort would rattle something fierce when I let off the gas on the highway, and that's what it was.
Sorry to the new owners that are having some "speed bumps", let's hope the dealers can resolve them quickly and they do not persist. Keep in mind even the best cars have a few problems. If you read Consumer Reports they typically find 3 or 4 sample defects even in very reliable cars. If service is poor, call Subaru's 800 number and be persistent.
Matt: follow Ken's excellent advice. I was able to carry two huge, long boxes with a swing set inside with the hatch closed. It's heavy lumber, and very long boxes fit with room to spare.
I'd suggest doing that on both sides (front seats all the way forward, remove all head rests, recline front seats all the way and drop the rear seats forward). Then use an inflatable bed, I'm guessing full size would fit about right. Sleeing bag on top of that, ought to be comfy.
Yes, I had a moonroof put in for $300. Mine is 15"x30" glass, and it pops up manually. Here are photos:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1400062
Open the "general mods" album.
To answer your specific questions - they cut the roof rails short and reinstalled them for an extra $70, but that allowed me to get a bigger roof. They moved the overhead light back and it works fine. Nothing squeeks or leaks, so I recommend ASC moonroofs installed by certified shops.
Dale had leather put in for $900 or so, and the side air bags were still intact (it even had the SRS logo on hers). Shop around.
-juice
To start off, thanks to all the regular posters in this discussion who have really helped me learn about the Forester before buying. My wife and I just took the plunge and picked up our new 2001 Forester L last night! We've been shopping for a few weeks and had narrowed our new car search down to the Forester or a Honda CR-V. The only clear advantage the Honda had was interior roominess. However, the Subie was just too good to pass up. Cheaper, more features, sturdier, AWD, good mileage, more powerful...I know we made the right choice. Looking forward to a nice long relationship with this fun car!
In my enthusiasm last night I covered pretty much the whole owner's manual, but have one question. During the 'break-in' period (first 1000 miles), one of the things I'm not supposed to do is drive constant speeds for a long time. In about a month my wife and I need to drive down to Illinois and we'd like to take the Forester and show it off, but we probably won't have 1000 miles logged yet. It's a 3.5 hour trip, about 230 miles, over very flat land (I-39 thru northern IL, one of the most mind-numbingly boring drives there is). Do you guys think it would be OK to make the trip if I didn't use cruise control? With respect to the break in period, how long is 'a long time'?
Another 'Subie Newbie' (Nubie? :-),
Steve
Congrats. Lots of people compare it to the CR-V. I did and made the same choice, with no regrets almost 3 years later. Plus, I've hit 36k miles so had I purchased a CR-V the warranty would already have expired. I still have two years left on my powertrain warranty!
Laurie: my gas mileage dips in the extreme cold as well. I usually lose about 2mpg during the cold season, perhaps partially due to oxygenates in the fuel.
-juice
Thanks for the help with the camping and mileage issues. I'm psyched to try the seat maneuver Ken and Juice described, and I think the cruise control advice will help a lot, as will keeping on top of tire pressure and lower speed.
Graham, I'm doing a Ph.D. in exercise physiology with a focus on the genetics of muscle and strength loss with age (thanks for asking). I think that the intense study of these phenomena is making me weaker and less muscular (something like the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle??).
Finally, do you all really think that using premium gas is the way to go, or can I get by on 87 octane?
Cheers,
--Matt
Laurie -- I personally haven't experienced lower gas milage when driving in slippery conditions. I spent a weekend up in Yosemite in deep snow and I was getting better than average gas milage. Subaru's AWD system is quite efficient compared to traditional 'shift on the fly' 4WD systems. You shouldn't see a huge penalty, if any. I would guess other factors tax your gas milage. For example, I tend to run my A/C, heated seats and defroster a lot more in rain/snow. I think these factors, along with outside temperatures, play a larger role in lowering MPG.
Steve -- It's more important to keep varying the engine RPMs rather than vehicle speed during your break in period. You could use cruise control as long as you don't keep the RPMs at one point for a long time.
Ken
Matt- IMHO: Don't waste your money on anything higher than 87 octane unless you hear the engine pinging. I know there are owners who think that a higher octane improves performance or is better for the engine but I know of no statistical evidence that confirms that.
-Frank P.
-juice
I am intrigued. Here in Oz, the improvement in mileage on my Outback is dramatic when shifting from 93 RON to 99 RON fuel. I wonder why you do not see similar performance above 87 RON?
Cheers
Graham
The boxer runs at a tame compression, and the timing is set pretty conservatively. It's actually designed to run on regular.
Remember, octane measures only one thing - resistance to knocking (pre-ignition). If standard octane does not knock, and your engine is basically stock, it likely won't make any difference whatsoever.
-juice
Could be the ECU handles the different fuels, well, differently. Do cars down in Oz have the same emissions stuff that we have up North? Probably a whole different ECU mapping, my guess.
-Brian
well had the 'sube' for just over 2-months now and things are still good. Had the passenger door seal replaced due to leaks and thus far we are high and dry. Lately though, the front passenger brake seems to make a 'whoop-whoop-whoop' sound when slowing down, usually at speeds less than 15-mph. Almost like a warped disc or something. The noise is not very noticible and I do not feel anything in the brake pedal. Any ideas out there, I will be checking the lug-nuts later for proper torque specifacations, but I am at a loss thus far.
Hey Steve, how far down I-39 do you plan to go?? I live down in Normal, ILL and with the wifes family in Minnesota, we make the I-39 trek about 2x per year....and YEP it be boring!! One of the worst parts is the tollway around Rockford as it is usually backed up and full of cops!! There is a good place to eat at the truckstop at the Mendota exit I think.....
Fear not on the placebo effect. I am consistently getting between 9.5 and 10.0 l/100km over mixed driving. That gives about 550 to 575km before fuel warning light comes on. I have a lightish right foot. Last tank full I could not get 99 RON so used normal unleaded. Fuel warning light came on at 475km and I initially assumed that someone had milked my tank, the variation was so large. I had forgotten about filling with 93RON. At fill, it was aproximately 11.0 l/100km or about 10-15% worse than normal. I'm an accountant and work this out mentally at each fill but do not record; I'm not obsessive.
I have written previously about the behaviour of the engine with 93 RON when leaned right out as on long distance cruise on light throttle. It sets up a very jerky motion. This was my original beef about the 2.5l engine and disappeared when I moved to 99 RON fuel. There may be something more to the choice of fuel as this is Shell Optimax which is claimed to be heavier than normal fuel. Presumably refined from some heavier fractions.
The pollution gear is pretty tight. Not quite California but of the same order. Sydney is surrounded by mountains and hence smog/fog tends to sit over the place. Melbourne has a ring of mountains to the East and smogs up like LA used to if there is a prolonged still spell with a temperature inversion, a common weather pattern. It is claimed to be one of the asthma centres of the world although most of the time it is genuinely "The World's Most Livable City" (I'm not biased, of course).
Octane ratings are generally higher than in the USA and Leaded fuel is about to disappear entirely.
Subaru specify a minimum 90 RON and prefer 95 RON or higher. They also recommend a fuel additive every 6000km to clear top engine build ups.
When I first tried Shell Optimax, I was getting about 5% better economy but this has steadily improved. Plugs also seem cleaner.
The overall equation is interesting. 99 RON costs about 6% more but fuel economy is approximately 10-15% better. It also improves performance and stops the jerky motion. It gets my vote.
Cheers
Graham
The only drawback was the very muddy, underpowered sound system. I just couldn't get myself to live with it. So I spent some money and made a huge improvement in the sound. Here are the details for anyone who's interested:
I replaced all four speakers with Polks. The fronts took EX602A and the rear EX501A. Total price from Crutchfield.com was $140.
I also replaced the head unit and CD player with Kenwoods. I got the Kenwood KRC-509S AM/FM/Cassette and the "slave" in-dash CD player, the KDC-D300. This combo fit like a glove into the double-din dash opening and cost $310, also from Crutchfield. They provided wiring harnesses and specific instructions for the whole project. Their tech support and sales assistance was remarkable.
I installed the speakers myself and had a friend who is good at this stuff do the dash install. Only two simple modifications were needed.. the speakers mounting required snipping off a few very small useless bits of plastic inside the doors (they were used to line up the old speakers). The dash install required shaving off a little bit of plastic from the inside (out of sight) edge of part of the dash. This might not be necessary for other units.
The difference in sound quality and satisfaction and features is absolutely tremendous. Now I'm constantly torn between wanting to hear tunes and loving the low growl of the boxer engine.
Diane M
-Frank P.
So in Aussie they measure in RON. I think the other measure is MON, but the US averages them and uses the (R+M)/2 measure. Gas stations even have the label.
In the US it's usually:
regular = 87 octane
plus = 89 octane
super = 91 to 94 octane, depends on where
Note that wholesale prices for gas are just 3.5 cents higher for super vs. regular, yet at least in my 'hood they charge a whopping 24 cents more! That's about 15% higher for the same mileage in my case.
I fill up with 87 exclusively, and my 25+mpg average is better than most here report. Frank's does even better than me, and I think he uses regular gas as well. Frank?
But higher octane does not mean higher energy content. I can't explain your variance in mileage, but it certainly isn't the case with our fleet here in the US.
An interesting tid bit, though. You may know Brazil had about half its fleet running on Ethanol about a decade ago. The stuff had an amazing octane rating of 105 (R+M)/2, yet it actually had a significantly lower energy content, so mileage was only about 60% of what you could get from gasoline. Range was poor, and even heavy subsidies could not save it. Ethanol sales have basically collapsed.
Anne: tell you dad congrats, and invite him to drop a note.
Diane: must be a sweet system, probably better than what I have at home! But I listen to kiddie tunes in the car to keep the baby happy, so I'll pass! :-)
-juice
Good luck with your brake problem.
Steve
By the way, our regular here is at 85. I read somewhere that it's okay because of the higher altitudes (5000 ft) and basically accepted that since all the major brands have 85 regular. What do you think? Should I be putting mid-grade in the Forester? Hmmm... maybe I'll check out that "osbornauto" link to see if it has anything to say about higher altitudes, but any info from you would be appreciated. Thanks.
-Dan
I agree with this statement: "To cover yourself for extreme conditions, it is wise to have an octane cushion but there is no advantage to using a very high octane quality product if you do not need it."
Subaru uses about 10 to 1 compression on the N/A 2.5l boxer, with timing set conservatively (i.e. with a cushion) for 87 octane. That means 85 octane is borderline, but probably OK. If it were not, Dan's would be pinging like crazy.
If he's OK with 85, I'm sure 87 is more than enough. The 2.5l is not capable of advancing the timing (in fact it's not adjustable), so it simply cannot take advantage of the higher octane.
The H6 is different. It's tuned for premium and then retards timing if it senses knocking, so it supposedly gives up about 4hp on 87 octane. I'd stick with premium in that case.
For a turbo I'd stick with premium no matter what.
-juice
Dan- I do recall reading somewhere that engines running at higher altitudes can run on a lower octane. If your regular unleaded is 85 octane then I'm sure it's okay (you can always check with the local Subaru service dept).
Tincup- That was an informative link but I wish it had addressed the requirements for normal engines rather than racing ones.
-Frank P.
I've also heard that lower octane is okay at higher altitudes. The thinner air makes it harder for fuel to ignite so you can compensate by using lower octane gas. I don't know the specifics of what octane gas at a given altitude is equivalent to 87 at sea level.
Ken
Makes sense, Ken. The air is less dense so the effective compression would be lower.
-juice
http://www.chem.vt.edu/chem-dept/helm/2514/project/octane/octane.html
Still, the article says RdON is the same as (R+M)/2, directly contradicting the previous article, which specifically pointed out the difference between the two.
76's hype, maybe?
-juice
We picked our new 2001 Red Forester S last Friday and got to try ito out in some snowy/slushy/sleety/rainy weather on Monday. It performed beautifully, and my husband is delighted that I'll be driving such a safe vehicle now. We drove "up" our icy driveway with no problem; my husband even stopped at the crest and then accelerated to finish - felt like dry pavement.
I find the Forester very comfortable - I like the firmness of the seats. The engine is so quiet you almost don't know it's running and the ride is smooth and effortless.
You are right about the cupholders - definately less than optimum placement, but it's a minor problem.
All in all I love my new Forester and expect to have it for many years to come.
I'll keep reading posts and contribute if there's anything to say. Thanks again.