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While on the VW subject, we may as well stop talking about the passat 3.6 as vw as dropped it.
Not sure where you get this info from :confuse: . VW website still lists the 3.6.
I generally read the messages on this board but don't post. I couldn't really resist replying to this one though.
Still, if I'm having to choose between a Ford and a VW, I'd actually take the Ford.
Would you really go from a Honda to a Ford? That's quite a jump there going from a brand that makes great engines to another that is at least a generation behind the rest of the industry. And Ford is nowhere close to VW in terms of engine technology either. Reliability wise, Ford is only slightly better than VW and that is only if you consider North America. Ford and VW are pretty much on par reliability/sales wise everywhere else in the world.
BTW, I've had my B5 Passat for nearly the same amount of time as my friend who owns a 99 Accord. We've compared the costs of maintenance and the Passat has cost me about 350 more (mainly due to the dealership). Our fuel costs are more are less the same since the VW gets better mileage than the Honda both in city and on the highway. My friend says he would not buy a VW for exactly the same reasons you gave in spite of my experience . He concedes a couple of things without hesitation though - after nearly a decade, his car feels and looks like a Grand Am and that his car has always drove and handled like an old person's car.
My folks have already made the leap. Their new Taurus is a fantastic buy; 3.5L 263 hp, 18/28 highway on regular fuel(pretty good for the power and large amount of room it has). This 3.5L was on Ward's 10 Best Engines List, I believe, so it can't be lagging behind the industry TOO bad. Add in Sync Media Controller as a low-cost option, and you have quite a nice, competitive car in the low $20ks.
Honda's customer service isn't what it used to be, and Ford's quality isn't what it used to be either (thank goodness).
He concedes a couple of things without hesitation though - after nearly a decade, his car feels and looks like a Grand Am and that his car has always drove and handled like an old person's car.
Old person's car? No, that'd be a Camry. I have a '96 and an '06 Accord, and another relative drives an '02 Accord. All three are a hoot to drive, but my favorite is still my old one, which now has 183,000 miles on it. It handles very nicely for this 20 year old car enthusiast. It's not quick, but quick doesn't equal fun. Fun does.
As far as looking like a Grand Am, I'm really not sure where this comment comes from. The rather vanilla styling that Honda put forth is a LOT less dated than Pontiacs from the same era, and no more dated than VW. Generally, more conservative designs (like the Honda and VW pictured) wear better over time.
I know that a platform has nothing to do with reliability, and they are not clones but, I find it very hard to believe that there is really a big difference between reliability ratings. If you look at CR, the Mazda6 4 cyl has never had anything but great remarks.
I do know that since Mazda has a much younger customer base, that may have an influence on perceived reliability since younger people tend to have less toleration for any potential glitches. Also, they tend to drive their cars harder.
If you would consider the 2010 Fusion, would you consider the 2nd gen Mazda6?
I agree with you about the Taurus, it really is one hell of a car for what you pay. I just can't get past the styling...
If you would consider the 2010 Fusion, would you consider the 2nd gen Mazda6?
Definitely, and I should've mentioned it in my post. Mazda's characteristically low gearing hurts fuel mileage though, so the Ford might suit me a little better (I'm loving averaging 37-38 MPG on trips in my Accord right now). Of course, if I treat the Mazda the same way as I treat my Accord on those trips, I'm liable to see numbers well above EPA also. I do like the new Mazda 6 design a LOT; better than most all the other entires out there for sure.
About the FE in the Mazda6. I would suspect you should be able to get 32-33 possibly driving conservative. I just got 32mpg's on a trip to Maine this weekend going 70-75 with the a/c on with my car full of luggage and my pregnant wife in my 05 4 cyl.
All luxury cars are expensive to repair, mainly because of the computer systems and silly labor charges that these high line dealers charge. The mechanical parts are really no more expensive then Toyota parts.
bdkinnh, "BMW 5-Series Sedans" #11855, 6 Jun 2007 10:08 am
My suggestion in drive the ones you are interested in and see how you like them. If it's between the Accord and Altima, they are both great cars. You should buy which ever one you think suits you best.
Trust me buddy, it's not just your opinion.
If it is, I second that!
If it is, I second that!
All in favor?
*raises hand* "Aye!"
Is it just that one might pay an $100 or so extra per year in routine maint and a couple of more repairs over a long period? Or is it just people jumping on the bandwagon with no real knowledge of the brand? VW seems to have improved their quality quite a bit over the last few years, much like GM and Ford has. I would venture a bet that most of the people that bad mouth them have never even driven one let alone owned one. I have owned three in my lifetime and had good and bad luck with them but enjoyed every one.
I guess if all you're looking for in a car is the absolute least repair cost or fewest trips to the dealer than you should probably avoid VW. But I personally don't think it is as bad as people like to make out . Maybe it just feels good to bash a brand....I don't know.
I can remember a time when Hondas and Toyotas were the laughing stock of the auto world here in the US. They were nothing but tin can rust buckets that couldn't even idle if the A/C was on and were knocked out of alignment every time you brushed a curb. This bashing continued by the uninformed until well after they both had improved their product tremendously.
Just my two cents.
Well, not a whole LOT of people jumping on the bandwagon based on sales figures. The Passat is relegated to niche status in this mid-sized sedan market due to its relatively high price compared to most competitors. It seems not too many people are willing to pay the premium for what the Passat offers. When you consider what most buyers are looking for in this class of car, "reliability", "passenger room and comfort", and "fuel economy" win out over "crisp handling" and "turbo power".
Funny thing is the most significant problem we happen to have had with our VW was related to the Japanese sourced automatic transmission which had valve body replaced at 10K mi.
Ford and VW are pretty much on par reliability/sales wise everywhere else in the world.
I wonder if much of the VW reliability problem in the US has been caused by poor maintenance practices here compared to elsewhere as my understanding is, as you imply, that VW is not percieved to have a reliability problem in Europe. The other factor that may come into play is that VW is, I believe, much more a young people's car in the US compared to Europe. Many young people are harder on their cars than older people and many of them also do not properly maintain them.
Correct but I don't think many of the "sales" you mention are represented in the posters you see here.
Something I've found kind of interesting too is that when you see people posting that they are considering different cars it always seems that the Jetta is the one they are classing in with the other midsizers and not the Passat. It's probably because the Jetta seems to fit the segment so well as far as base HP, MPG and price goes.
I think, on average, that is the reality. However the perception is that there is a wide gap in reliability and repair/maintenance costs. According to Edmunds the Passat has average repair and maintenance costs of $5361 over 5 years and 75,000 miles. The Accord and Camry come in at $4181 and $4936 respectively.
(Note that the Jetta 2.5, which is not a midsize but was, I think, the car that VW designed to be reliable in the US, comes in at $4621.)
OTOH, my kid does have a 1996 Jetta, purchased used, and it has had an amazing amount of problems in his one year of ownership.
Those Jetta buyers you mention are people who are looking for a car at a particular price point vs. looking for a mid-sized sedan.
I don't know, we don't hear much from buyers of the Camry either and it is the biggest selling car. Meanwhile Mazda6 buyers (such as myself) seem to me to be over represented.
We're just so passionate about our vehicles..don't ya know!!
WOLFSBURG - August 21, 2008: The Volkswagen brand delivered 2.21 million vehicles worldwide (+4.7 percent) in the first seven months of this year, setting a new record for this period.
Something obviously is not right about VW over here....If the 4th largest company in Japan can out sell the 4th largest automaker in the world in the large American market there is obviously a reason for that.
ie - you never hear about problems in the first few years for most makes. It's the second-hand market where all the gremlins show up as the car reaches towards ten years or older. And it's the things like dead power windows and radios and your rear defroster not working because of some relay that get people's attention. Far more than mechanical issues like CV joints and the like. They know stuff wears out, but a bad CV joint on a 8-10 year old car is almost expected. Your window not working... even though that's a fairly minor thing, it creates a dozen times more angst.
The German companies make very poor quality switches and electrical parts compared to the sources that they use in Japanese vehicles.(ie - expect a Denzo injector in a Tacoma to last easily twice as long as the Bosch equivalent, and don't get me started on shocks or spark plugs). Part of that until very recently was because there were huge economic reasons for getting all of your parts from your own country(actually huge DIS incentives if you didn't). Now, thankfully, it's easier, but a lot of the agreements and old suppliers are still in place.
Note - some companies, like Citroen have taken full advantage of it, though, and having been freed of the French suppliers, are now sourcing components from all over the EU. And the cars are actually worlds better than before.
Is this true?? It doesn't seem to make sense to me. I have owned over 35 different cars and I would say 25 of them were used when I bought them. Never been surveyed. Obviously, I am not a very large sample but I thought just about all the surveys were done in the first few years of ownership.
This would be consumer reports.
The German companies make very poor quality switches and electrical parts compared to the sources that they use in Japanese vehicles.(ie - expect a Denzo injector in a Tacoma to last easily twice as long as the Bosch equivalent, and don't get me started on shocks or spark plugs).
A generalization is never true. It may be some suppliers have quality issues, but I expect a Bosch to last as longer or longer than Denzo. And, let's talk about the plugs, if you can give a specific example that holds true over a long period of time.
Galant owner here. I read the forums a lot but rarely have occasion to comment. My '99 has been solid & reliable; easily the best car I've ever bought. I don't care for the body style on the current Galant so it's not on my short-list should the need for a replacement arise before it is redisgned. But I've no problem recommending the brand based on my experience.
It appears that VW has the #1 spot for cars that hold their original value after the first 5 years. It was interesting to see that the only two American-made cars in the top 10 were from Dodge and Jeep - two of Chrysler's divisions that many people here like to bash.
10 best, 10 worst for holding original value
For example, the Jeep Wrangler is way overpriced for what you get but has a fanatical "young, outdoorsman" image that appeals to younger people. They can't afford a new one so the demand for used ones stays high.
The Viper, well that's such a low volume specialty car that I'm sure you wouldn't use that as an example for "how Chrysler cars depreciate".
Ford really doesn't market a specialty vehicle like these but GM does have the Corvette and that didn't make the list.....so I have to give Chrysler some credit.
However, you're right that VW (Jettas especially) does rank pretty high on resale values as a rule but I'm not sure exactly where.