Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Main considerations are:
1- My wife is expecting twins (due soon) and will have to have two baby seats in the car and possibly an eventual third person (nanny)sharing the back seat with the babies.
2- I will use the car mainly in the city (NY) with eventual trips. Nevertheless I'd like not to be bound by the (very) limited size of the car's cargo space, if a longer trip makes it necessary for us to carry two large suitcases, baby stroller and something else.
3- I am limited to the $20-22K range. However, below that range, I do not care about savings (I am entitled to spend this amount).
4- I have a slight personal preference for driving non-SUV (wagons or sedans) autos as opposed to SUV if the driving experience is the only factor. But I'm not an aficionado driver either.
5- My wife feels safer not having/driving an SUV, but with some resoaning she'd be ok with that if this is the case.
Here are some of my considerations / questions, more or less in order of priority:
a) Cargo space:
Although the brochure on the CR-V says it has 33.6cb ft. while the Legacy carries 34.3 cb. ft, the CR-V gives me the impression of having a better use for the space. Is it possible that the specs do not capture this? How are these measurements done (total space?, only until a certain height?)
The Honda seems to be able to hold the extra piece of luggage "on top of it all", especially in the new 2003 model, right?
b) Safety:
Despite all the current CR-V's awards, I think the Legacy still has an advantage here, right? After all the first is still an SUV...BUT, I understand both are satisfactorily well built for safety ( and that is a reason for this not being on the top of the list)
c) Pilot's leg room space:
Deja vu. The legacy brochure brings a front leg room larger than the CR-V's, what was not confirmed by my experience (and apparently by some other big guys', who like me are over 6.2", and also had some problems with the limited extension of the front seat). Here again, I ask myself whether the measures capture all of the issue, if the fact that the SUV seat is higher compared to the wheel might help put the pilot's back on a more vertical position and thus contribute to the roomier feeling, or if it is all my impression.
d) Passengers' comfort and room:
CR-V rates better by far in all aspects. Here I have a serious concern if the Legacy would be able to accommodate a third adult on the back seat between the two baby seat. Would it? and for how long a person could travel?
e) Driving
I have not driven the Legacy yet (the sales person did not seem to care much)but for what I hear is a more pleasant experience. For me just not being an SUV is per se an advantage, do I really need an SVU living and driving in the city most of the time? Is the legcy ride so much smoother than the CR-V's?
f) Service:
Just for the way I was received in the Honda dealership I could feel the difference. I had a very unpleasant experience visiting two Subaru dealers on the NY area. Not to mention availability of stores/dealerships, much higher for Honda.
Other considerations are not important for this discussions (monetary, insurance, etc.).
Thanks a lot,
One big advantage of the CRV is that it has more room in the rear seat. For 3 kids, this is essential for me to minimize the fighting and arguing. Also, the CRV has a reclining rear seat which gives you addl. comfort.
I have had my Subaru serviced at various dealers and I find their service folks less capable than the Honda dealerships I have dealt with. Maybe this is by chance? Not sure....
Either car will suffice for you. I have looked at all the alternatives in this class with AWD and the CRV appears to be the best value with an engine big enough to move you along. Good Luck with your decision.
Take a deep breath, get lots of sleep now while you can. OK, back to car shopping. 2 kids and a nanny, sounds very familiar. Legacy, sounds familiar too. That's me, exactly. Heck, both cars were even on our short list.
To be honest, the problem you're gonna have it width, not cargo space. With two car seats in place, it's gonna be a tight squeeze for that nanny. Hire a petit nanny that wears a size 4.
A wider choice would be something like a Kia Sorento. While it doesn't look much bigger, it is a lot wider than both of these, and would seat 3 across more easily. Other wide bodies tend to break your price barrier.
The Legacy's cargo area offers a lot of floor space. Check out the spring towers, they are not at all intrusive. The hatch invades the space a bit so it's not as boxy nor can it carry taller items, but if you're avoiding stacking cargo, for better visibility, IMO the Legacy had the edge with our double stroller inside. It left room for a diaper changing platform, plus rain cover with the lift gate.
CR-V has that table you could remove, but still no cover from rain. Element offers a great solution, rain cover plus a tail gate platform, but it only has 4 seats and you need 5.
I think both are very safe. Legacy may have the edge at accident avoidance, but crash protection on both is solid. Both are IIHS "Best Picks".
It's funny you mention front leg room because this was sort of the deal-killer for us with the CR-V, but mostly because front passenger leg room was tight. Driver room for whatever reason was better.
One of the Subaru Crew members modified the seat track on his Outback (Mike, IIRC), so I know that can be done.
3 in the back would be tight. We do it on occasion, but I would not do that for trips longer than an hour or so. I'm not sure the CR-V is any wider, though. Leg room is better on the Honda by far, but width would still be an issue. Try both with your child seats strapped in place. Then have your wife climb in and try it out.
As for the drive, we liked both. Both do 0-60 in the 8s range. The Legacy now carries 55 series tires on 16" rims, so it'll take a turn a lot tighter, plus it leans less. The CR-V is very car-like, just not sporting, at least not with 70 series tires. It was also a bit loud for us, but certainly not unacceptable. If you get one I'd avoid the Dueler tires, I had them and they had lousy wet/dry traction. Get the BFGoodrich tires instead.
Ask in the Subaru topics about dealers, there are a couple that are usually recommended in the NY area. In fact there's a good no-haggle dealer up there.
Other differences? Subaru has a 5/60 powertrain warranty, plus the 3/36 Bumper to Bumper includes roadside assistance that Honda doesn't.
$19,094 with auto for an L/SE at fitzmall.com. The NY area dealer has similar prices. An EX auto runs $21,955 at Sheehy.com. Both are no-haggle dealers, but in my region.
So both are within your price range, but the $2,861 difference can buy you a 7/100 extended warranty, a 6CD changer, cross bars for the roof rack, a bike/ski rack, etc.
You gotta drive it, though, and take the kiddie seats with you, because not all child seats are the same size. Good luck.
-juice
Cargo dimensions are a fussy subject. I think the Legacy does have greater capacity by virtue of having a deeper or wider floor. The CR-V's suspension intrudes on the sides. Still, it depends on what you are going to place in the back. One advantage for the CR-V is that the rear seats can be slid forward a few inches for larger cargo and still have space in the back for passengers.
I think you're spot on with the driver's seat issue. Linear measurements do not tell the whole story. The fact that the CR-V and Legacy have different seating positions will make the seats "feel" more or less roomy depending on which you prefer.
I think it is coming down to my wife's prejudice against SUV versus the interior space issue in which I think we'd be better off with the CR-V.
Bear with me:
1) If I want to carry two oversized pieces of luggage , plus stroller, plus whatever, would I be able to do it in the Legacy? I'm syure I could use some of the CR-V's height to accomodate the extra things.
2) If I want to fit a 3rd person on the CR-V would allow her'him to at least strecth the legs and put them between the front seats.
3) My wife is short so pagganger front leg room is not a problem .
Now, one important thing: is there much of a difference in terms of safety (avoidance, of course) between the AWD and the RT 4WD?
From what I understand from you guys I'm getting very similar things from two different cars with two very different concepts. Bottom line: would you guys feel personally more inclined to any side? Btw, I have already included in the value comparison, the extra for the 6-cd I'd put in the Legacy , something I 'd be getting anyways from the EX so it comes down to room (usable, interior conception) VS. security / stability.
Thanks (Valeu Juice!)
You can indeed slide the rear seat forward, but not with the child seats already in place, at least not with the ISOFIX anchors connected (which both vehicles have BTW). So position the seats where you want them first, then install the child seats. That allows you to trade off leg room vs. cargo space.
1) Probably. I'd even take that luggage and your stroller with you on the test drive. Seriously, this is important stuff that you can test yourself before deciding on the purchase.
The CR-V is better for "stacking" cargo, but then you're blocking the rear view and perhaps putting a projectile up high in case of a collision. I'd really try to keep cargo below the top of the seat, or under the cargo cover. In that situation the Legacy's bigger floor is better IMO. At a minimum make sure you tie things down if you stack stuff up.
2) Yes, the CR-V would have more room for the legs to stretch. There is toe room under seats for both of these. But how often will you really sit back there? I think my wife has sat in the rear seat twice, and our 2nd kid is 8 months old already.
3) sounds like you'll be the primary driver.
Here's a question, who will that be? If it's yours, get the CR-V. I mean, that's what you really want. If it's the wife's car, let her get the Legacy. You probably won't drive it as often and when you do it's sporty enough to be fun to toss around.
AWD vs. RT4WD. Well, we're actually talking about 3 systems in total. Honda's is part-time and reacts fairly quickly when the front wheels spin. But there is no center differential so it cannot remain engaged all the time, plus it disengages once you hit a certain speed.
Subaru's auto AWD is full-time, sending 80% of the torque to the front wheels and 20% to the rears by default (some say 90/10), but changing that spread pro-actively when you hit the throttle or climb a steep grade.
Finally, the manual tranny Subaru uses a center Viscous Coupling, which acts as a center differential. It's engaged all the time, with a default 50/50 torque split. The VC is fluid filled and when the front/rear axle spin at different rates the fluid hardens and lock them together temporarily. It's reactive to spin, but the power is divided 50/50 so you're less likely to spin in the first place.
Subtle differences, but you can feel them. The safest, IMO, is Subaru auto AWD, because it's the only one that "thinks" and is pro-active. The FWD bias is probably better for a novice driver. Plus there is zero torque steer.
But then we're splitting hairs a bit. Any of these will absolutely clobber your standard open-diffy FWD vehicle in the snow.
What to choose? Do you carve corners? I think the Legacy's 16" rims and 55 series tires are more appropriate, along with the lower center of gravity. It's a better performer in terms of handling and braking.
Do you visit farms and drive on gravel/dirt roads on occasion? Does the wife like the high vantage point? That's why people like SUVs in the first place. That's what you're getting for those couple of trade-offs.
-juice
Try with your car seat, but we do not have to bend down to load him in, though. We still have him rear facing, and keep in mind the car seat itself raises him up a lot.
Hooking up our 3 year old in a booster seat is easier in the taller Forester, though.
Try it, take your seats with you.
-juice
The Forester XS/Premium is comprehensively equipped, and has a long list of things the CR-V does not offer:
* rear Limited-Slip differential
* outside temp gauge
* heated seats
* heated mirrors
* windshield wiper de-icers
* head-protection side air bags (vs chest only)
* 16" alloy (vs 15")
* fog lights
* cross bars
* 3 years roadside assistance
* 4th and 5th year powertain warranty
Plus the moonroof is about 4 times as big. Don't take my word for it, go see one. Small air craft could land in there.
The Honda does have tinted windows and the picnic table, but that's about it.
So yes, of course it costs more. It's equipped like an Acura CR-V, or at least a CR-V SE, would be. Even then fitzmall.com has a 5 speed for $22,343, and automatic for $22,603, freight included. A little out of range but just barely, and for a *lot* of extra stuff, especially if you live in a cold climate.
However, with the 2 kids + nanny in back the Legacy is a better fit, plus he's trying to avoid the SUV look, remember. Plus the Legacy is much cheaper than either of the sport/cutes.
-juice
2) Indeed, the center seating position in the 2nd row of the CR-V has more foot room. But the things has as much legroom as most mid-size SUVs, so I don't think anyone will need it. As Juice mentioned before, the width (with car seats) is a bigger concern.
3) Your wife may not need the front passenger space, but she may appreciate the ability to "walk" between the seats and get to the back seat (swipe or wipe those cantankerous toddlers!)
On the AWD front, the Soob systems are among the best for sending power from one set of wheels to another. The CR-V's system is reactive, so it is less effective in preventing slippage, but better in other areas (like fuel economy). It's a trade off. From a safety perspective, I give the nod to the Soob, but the CR-V's RT4WD is more than enough for most people. (BTW, it disengages when the wheels are no longer slipping, not when it reaches a certain speed. That's a feature of other systems.)
In terms of dynamic safety, I'd give the Legacy the advantage. It has better handling, is probably less likely to roll over, and is probably has better overall braking abilities. However, the CR-V has earned the highest marks in its class for the IIHS crash test. It did the same with the NHTSA frontal impact, as well as the side impacts. The dual-pretensioned seatbelts used on recent Honda models were credited for some of these high rankings. I haven't checked the Legacy's record in a while, but I think I'd remember if they were equally impressive.
So dynamic safety looks best for the Soob, while impact safety looks better (to my recollection) for the Honda.
JM2C.
Joey - I don't think that Leo's concerns over SUVs are related to emissions or fuel economy. He seems to be more interested in handling characteristics. On the "green front", the CR-V is rated an LEV by the Tier 2 standards which will soon go into effect. And despite being one of the larger vehicles in it's class, it is also one of the most fuel efficient.
Subaru's ABS is more sophisticated, though. Honda employs a 3 channel system, while every Subie has 4 channel, 4 sensor ABS standard. Note that some Type S Acuras do use 4 channel systems, so Honda/Acura does use them, but only on pricey models. Even the S2000's system is a less sophisticated 3 channel system.
For us, a couple of other minor factors were that the Legacy had more payload (900 vs. 850) and towing (2000 vs. 1500).
Again, none of these are significant enough to sway you one way or the other. Both are nice choices and you should buy what you prefer, the one that brings you the bigger smile when you drive it.
Happy, alert drivers are safe drivers.
-juice
Joey, you're right on spot, could not care less about the difference in the emission level. Fuel economy is not thath relevant when you see the parking price here in NYC.
I'll take a closer look at the Subaru before deciding to go with the CR-V (just to make sure I'm not making a major mistake). You see, from the begining I wanted the Legacy but rationaly, I think I'll be better off with the CR-V and for me driver's leg room (poor on the legacy) is likely to be the deal breaker, along with slightly inferior use of overall interior space.
Now I'm thinking about leasing it, any hint where I could get a good deal?
Good luck. Have fun test driving.
-juice
Cheers,
Leo
Heated seats are great. I don't have them but I have sampled them, including on long trips.
MSRP doesn't mean much to me, so I tend to shop according to what no-haggle dealers are offering, i.e. prices I'd actually pay, not some theoretical "suggested" list price.
-juice
The seat warmers heat up pretty quickly even on
-20 mornings! She loves it after having a Camry. I find it kind of spunky and fun to drive.
Amazing power from a 4 cylinder
-juice
Toyotas seem to have better dampening over rough or irregular pavement, which is slightly more noticable in the CR-V. Still the Honda handles nicely in those situations.
With the realtime 4x4 in snow it is amazingly smooth. I notice with the part time 4x4 engaged in 4 hi it scrubs on turns. The CR-V shifted flawlessy from front to realtime. Still it would be nice for Honda to put an indicator light to indicate when it is is realtime mode.
-juice
Please give me the suggestions
about the spare tire interfering with the bike rack I want to mount on the hitch receiver.Has anybody tried this?
It's not rocket science, just nuts and bolts. I raised the front of my Miata's seat with some simple spacers. An Outback owner I know modified his power driver's seat to go back a couple of inches, too.
-juice
An inch won't hurt. In my case I raised the front of the seat track for better thigh support. I think it's about 3/4" higher than stock, and it's far more comfortable than a stock Miata for me.
-juice
I'm having a heck of a time finding any dealer willing to go below MSRP in the Philly, Pennsylvania area for a 03 CRV EX Auto.
I look in the What did you pay? forum, and it seems people through the country are at least getting somewhat of a deal.
Does anyone know of any dealerships in the area that are willing to go below MSRP?
Thanks..
MJ Smith
Does anybody know when the colors for the 2004 model will be available? I remember that people on this board knew the colors of the "new" 2002 CR-V long before anybody posted an actual picture of the new model. How did you find out about the colors?
I am afraid of breaking a dash panel not sure of how to remove it, to acess the radio.
I know Crutchfield supplies instructions for installion.
Rate the skill level for replacement on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the most difficult.
Will a aftermarket radio affect the operation of the remote door locks?
Thanks Tom
Nope.
I bought Douglas tires at Wal-mart,there a agressive M/S tire. 40k mileage. $46 ea. A bit noisy, but I don't want to get stuck in 10inches of snow, and have to be pulled out.
I replaced the tires at 13 k
It's a good thing I took a second test drive. I realized that my right leg was uncomfortable even with the seat all the way back. It was compressed and not relaxed like it would be in many other cars I sat in. I am only 5'11". I even wrote Honda a letter complaining of this.
Maybe the 2004 will have a better driving position for tall people.
It's awkard to give you a difficulty rating since everyone has different experiences, but I'd rate the difficulty as 8 out of 10. On my scale, the Honda alarm rates a 10, Honda fog-light wiring rates an 7, the spoiler installation rates a 6, the front mud flaps a 2, and the floor mats a 1. <GRIN> I hope that gives you a reference point of some sort.
With harness adapters, upgrading the speakers is so easy that a responsible 12-year-old can replace them with just a screwdriver. No worries about affecting the keyless entry either. That module is located within the driver's door of the '97-'01 models.
(Beginning with the 2002 model, the keyless situation DID change. Adding keyless entry to a 2002+ CR-V now involves installing a receiver unit into the dash.)
Dave