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Comments
It's a shame this economic disaster hit just as things were starting to look good at the General.
What makes GM special? They loose more money? Stop the insanity! If they can't survive on their own, Chapter 11 both of them.
Too bad they can't get the quality up across the line.
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, but the reasons given are the enormous number of people who are employed directly and indirectly by the auto mfrs. In addition to direct employees there are hundreds of thousands of retirees. Entire communities are supported by local manufacturing plants. Suppliers are dependent on all mfrs and if one goes under the suppliers may go under, too, and that would affect the other mfrs like Ford and possibly even Honda and Toyota. Then you add in the massive dealer networks and the local impact of those and the potential economic impact across the country is huge.
And try to remember that we're talking about LOANS, not gifts. They'll be paid back one way or the other.
Since GM stock is virtually worthless at this point, perhaps the federal government might accept payment in the form of midsize sedans? I hear the Malibu and Aura are very nice.
In other news, CR's "bucks per bang" rating (a new stat this year) places the Sonata and Accord neck and neck. Anyone have any thoughts on this? If you were rating the "bucks per bang" of various midsize sedans, which ones would score best? Worst?
This is hard to say right now because there are great deals on practically every mid-sized sedan.
Toyota and Honda are asking for bailout money from their govts too. Does the above apply to them as well?
I'd also put the Accord LX/LX-P in the mix, at least with the manual tranny.
Toyota and Honda are asking for bailout money from their govts too. Does the above apply to them as well?
If I were a Japanese taxpayer, I would have an opinion. I doubt they are in the same shape as Detroit.
Wrong! If ANY company wants MY tax dollars, I say NO. What they do with Japanese taxpayer's money, is there own business.
Come on, akirby, that was a cheap shot. What elroy5 said was that it should be up to Japanese taxpayers to decide whether the Japanese government should give Japanese tax revenue to support those companies.
As I presume that neither elroy5 nor I nor you pay taxes to support the government of Japan, I fail to see how our opinion should influence Japanese governmental policies.
On the other hand, we do pay taxes to support the U.S. government, and we have a right to say how that money is spent.
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Quite honestly I hate that tax dollars are going to prop up banks, insurance companies and autos but in the end it's a necessary evil. You can't allow key financial firms and industries to disappear, it will throw the economy into depression and maybe worse. Governments around the world are propping autos up, the U.S. and Canada must also.
This is not business as usual, we are in the economic disaster of the century. That said, we are off topic.
Malibu is a great sedan... discuss.
;-)
I liked it. Thought it was a little cramped on the inside to be the size it is on the outside (although many GM cars are guilty of this, especially the W-Body cars), but wanted to drive it. Too bad in the 2.5 hours I spent having my car serviced there (a 12 year old car at the time, looked like I'd be ready to trade), not ONE salesperson so much as SPOKE to me, offered to let me inside one, much less drive one. I was dressed in khakis and a button-up, not like a hooligan 20 year old.
The Ford dealer across the street is much more friendly.
My folks went to test the Impala and the Taurus, but after 15 minutes without being able to get a test drive, they got frustrated and went to that Ford dealer. Bought a 2008 Taurus that day.
Shame on you Premiere Chevrolet! :sick: You lost a sale.
At least our American cars aren't the junk they once were. Now if we can get the Impala up to class-standards we'll be in business on the Chevy side!
And the implication was that Ford, GM and Chrysler should stand or die on their own without help but it's ok if Toyota and Honda get help from their government. It doesn't matter whether it's your tax money or not, the principle should be the same. It's not and it never will be with him.
They lost me when they lost the wagon.
Or when the all but eliminated the manual...
I guess thats what happens when you get bought by Toyota...one size fits all, except when it doesn't.
As to Toyota owning Subie....not true. Research will show that Toy has an investment interest only and there is some cross development going on...no different than with most industries these days....
I'd like a not-quite-midsize sedan, say the size of the current Legacy or the Jetta or the old Contour. But so far the automakers aren't really taking me up on it, probably because there's no price gap between upper-level compacts (Civic EX, Mazda 3s, et al) and the midsize mainstream.
Remember that until about a year and a half ago Subaru was part-owned by GM. Did that hurt Subaru's cars?
I seem to like cars that are right on that borderline also. Had a couple coutours and now have a prior generation Mazda6 and my wife has a jetta.
It seems that size is not too availabe in a smallish midsize any longer and the only options are becoming largish compacts. Besides the Subaru, the VW Paasat and TSX areabout all that comes to mind. Beyond those, I think only some even pricier, generally european, cars fit that category (eg. Volvo S60).
I am not a fan of the ever-increasing exterior size of "mid-sized" sedans, but as the compacts grow larger, they can fill that need for a smallish but roomy car.
This raises a bigger question: does "midsize" really refer to size? For me it's more of a measure of price and market role--Accords of 20 years ago would be considered "compact" today based on their interior and exterior dimensions, but the quality of materials inside would identify them more closely with today's midsize cars.
By this measure, the Legacy is a midsize sedan even if its interior space is somewhat compact. And at the other end of the size spectrum, the Accord, Sonata, and Impala are midsize even if their interior and trunk space makes them nominally full-size.
I agree that it really should be more of a relative size based on the current lineups. There is no way a Prius should be a midsize or an Accord or Sonata should be a full-size.
Yes, but neither is the Legacy or TSX, both are compacts according to EPA's definition. This merely demonstrates the shortcomings of relying completely on EPA to define the class, IMO.
Not that I am saying the Jetta is midsize, it is just toward the larger end of compacts (with a very large trunk). Which is how I would have described the Contique, as well. A fair number of contique-ites seem to have migrated to the mazda6 (prior gen).
Anyway, as was said it is also about the quality (not meaning reliability) of the vehicle and I would say a certain more "solid" feel when driving...not feeling like you are buzzing around in an econobox. For example, the focus has (or at least had) the kind of handling, etc. that would appeal to me...but it still had that economy car feel, in the end.
It doesn't and my intention was not to imply that it did. The context of the discusson was just which cars are appealing to a couple of individuals here, who happen like cars that are larger compacts or smaller mid-sizes.
I think just the opposite. If the Civic, Elantra, Corolla, etc. get much larger, they will probably have a V6 option.
Regards:
Oldengineer
Having grown up in a mountainous area myself, and understanding that a modern 4 cylinder engine is designed to rev higher (which can be seen from the horsepower/torque curves), I am pretty used to the engine reving a bit.
The 1.8 l Escorts seemed fine, as did the 2.2 l Accord and the small V6 (2.5 l) Contour. The V6 in the Caravan and the Sienna had the most trouble.
Locally hwy 154 was a pass through the mountains, and trips to Mammoth and Tahoe or Yosemite involved a lot mountain driving. Even just going to LA required traversing the Conejo grade, and Cuesta grade is just north of San Luis Obispo.
A 4 valve/cylinder motor is more effective when its flowing more air. To flow more air, the revs need to be higher...this is what gave rise to complaints about no low end torque (and why variable valve timing is important on these vehicles to address that).
Honda Accord EX-L
Mazda 6 i Touring
Details and results here
Even when I pull away from a light at a modest ~3000 rpm, I seem to be maybe about 1/2 mile down the road in the time the other cars cover about 1/4 mile. When I am not first in line, I find the typical driver accelerates at a rate that I achieve at barely over 2000 rpm.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f12d514/11754!keywords=allin%3Amsg- text%20limit%3A.f12d514%20Fusion%20SE#11754
This is one reason that we have over-powered engines in mid-size sedans. I think many buy a ~250 HP (at say 6000 rpm) V6, but never run it over 3000...which means, at most, they are using 125 HP.
And yes, I do rev my car past 4K RPM (quite frequently, I may add) when passing or accelerating on an on-ramp, so I'm not "afraid" to drive it. Gas mileage? Well, I get about 10-20% BETTER gas mileage with my V6 Mazda6 compared to my previous DD, a 4-cylinder Grand Am, because I'm not constantly gunning it just to keep up with traffic.
Sorry, but a V6 in a midsize sedan isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
I've never owned a V6 in any vehicle other than a minivan, and there I think it's a necessity due to the weight of those vehicles (although my 1991 Caravan had a 100 hp I4, in which I got my first speeding ticket). My 2000 626 has 125 hp and 2004 Elantra has 138. (And my 2005 Jetta only 115, and is a heavy little car but not mid-sized). Although the extra power of a V6 is fun, I don't miss it in daily driving. But I'm not going 85 mph or running on mountainous roads, either.
This is one reason that we have over-powered engines in mid-size sedans. I think many buy a ~250 HP (at say 6000 rpm) V6, but never run it over 3000...which means, at most, they are using 125 HP.
Which is why my 125HP 4 cylinder with a manual transmission is just as quick in traffic. :P I keep my engine wound up and it jumps into spaces very quickly.(and the thing weighs about the same as a typical midsize sedan)
You can do this same "trick" with a 4 cylinder Accord or Civic with manual as well. 150-160HP and 4-5000rpm in 3rd makes for lightning fast merges.
And yes, I do rev my car past 4K RPM (quite frequently, I may add) when passing or accelerating on an on-ramp, so I'm not "afraid" to drive it. Gas mileage? Well, I get about 10-20% BETTER gas mileage with my V6 Mazda6 compared to my previous DD, a 4-cylinder Grand Am, because I'm not constantly gunning it just to keep up with traffic.
Its too bad you are a Mazda man, it sounds like a 3.8 pushrod motor from the General would be right up your alley. Great low end torque, and it all but goes to sleep on the highway loafing at 75-85 mph. Drop it in a large or midsize sedan and get fine highway fuel economy numbers as well.
I have found it to be a safety feature that both the '93 Accord EX and the '07 Accord EX can run in 3rd gear at highway speeds for evasive maneuvers, quick passing, or anything along those lines. Eh and sometimes its actually, dare I say it, fun.
Something I dislike about GM vehicles I've driven is that I can't, for the life of me, get much of a downshift without giving it full boot. I should tell you, I've never driven the new 6-speeds from GM though; just 4-speed trucks and cars.
On a somewhat related topic... can someone enlighten me on the similarities or differences (if any of either) between the 6-speed auto in the Malibu, et. al. and the 6-speed in Ford's Taurus? I know its not a midsizer, but the other forums are all but dead, and this one has a lot of knowledgeable folks.
Thanks!!
TheGraduate
Bingo. The manual makes a huge difference with the 4.