Midsize Sedans 2.0

tlong · January 2011

My sister faced a similar problem a couple of years ago. She chose a Honda, which is fine, but the fact is that all of these basic sedans are pretty much interchangeable at this point. It leads to the following list:

Accord/Camry/Altima/Mazda 5/Fusion/Sonata/Malibu

I think you mean the Mazda 6, not the Mazda 5, which is a micro-minivan.

plekto · January 2011

Yeah - my bad. Basically everyone makes a midsize sedan. And they all are like flavors of grocery store generic ice cream. Decent enough, but bland and unsatisfying compared to the real name brands.

Nobody that I have ever run across has regretted buying a CPO upscale sedan over a budget new one. Why *not* get leather, a better engine, maybe a sunroof, and so on for the price of a base model car?

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=290626271
This is typical - and a good deal. It even has the bench seat, which makes the interior feel much larger up front (and seats 6 in a pinch)

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=292126446
Another example. Mid-trim model.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=290692960
Or get this - $20K for a fully loaded TSX. It's technically a "midsize sedan"(though a very very nice one

) It's got a few miles on it, but that's no issue, really. 50K isn't much for a Honda.

trainer1366 · January 2011

As a former Camry and present Accord owner (only used as an infrequently driven 2nd car) I totally agree with Plekto. The Japanese designers played it safe and designed white bread sedans since 2002. So, in 2004, after realizing that a fully loaded Toyota Camry would require a kidney donation, I switched out and purchased a new 2004 Optima EX V6. Standard features included leather, sunroof, etc for $17,500, $10k less than the Camry. The Optima was not cool looking, but the ride, reliability and features made it stand out.

I NEVER thought I would purchase another KIAI was on point to purchase a CPO 2008/09 Lexus ES 350. Recently, I purchased a 2011 Optima EX with the Premium package. Which features do I love the most? The Blue tooth, panoramic sunroof, cooled/heated seats, red driver angled display, super smooth ride, lumbar support and the crazy, mean looking black grill.

Peter S. and the KIA design team dialed up the heat and produced the best looking sedan on the road. Hands down. Accord/Camry/Altima/Mazda 6/Fusion/Sonata/Malibu  all these losers should come hard or go home.

suydam · January 2011

Hmm, which cars sell more -- Kia or all those other "losers"? Guess not everyone agrees with you. The Altima by the way is a very nice car. I borrowed one while my Maxima was in the shop and was surprised at how nice it is. Drove it on both freeways and in the country roads. I have two or three friends who have them and love them. Great on gas mileage too -- how does that G8 do? And a Toyota Camry hardly costs "a kidney donation" (which by the way would be FREE since it's illegal to sell them).

plekto · January 2011

The G8 does quite well, actually. GM builds some of the best cars on the planet. Just not in the U.S. Occasionally we get one from overseas, which is a joy to drive.

It gets 17/25mpg, which is commendable considering it drives almost exactly the same as 5 series. It's the right size, has great handling (RWD), and has zero jellybean DNA in it. I drove one and it felt great. The manual equipped version is almost as good as a Corvette. Just with 4 doors.

http://www.holden.com.au/latestoffers/commodore-offers/new-series-ii-sv6-commodo- re?region=National

It's the #1 selling car in Australia. And something that GM really needs to bring back as a Chevrolet. (note - prices are in AUD and include VAT)

jeffyscott · January 2011

My guess is the Sonata would be the most Camry-like ride, so if that is what you are looking for that would seem to be worth considering. On the reliability issue, I think it is supposed to be pretty good, but just in case, it does have a longer warranty.

smarty666 · January 2011

I would give the Altima a look as well. Many people here bad mouth the CVT without even having one and while the 1st Gen Nissan introduced did have some problems, the current 2nd Gen CVT has had very few issues plus, if driven correctly you'll be able to get decent mpg out of it, not if you live in the City of course. Plus, if God forbid something was to happen with the CVT, your covered by Nissan now for 10yrs/120k miles.

I have 10 Max and two family members with Nissan CVTs none of us who have had problems and the mpg I have gotten is really good for the power under the hood.

Definitely worth a look. Nissan has not stagnated like Honda and Toyota have with their products. As other's have mentioned I would look at the Fusion and Sonata as well. In my opinion, the Altima, Sonata, and Fusion are your best midsize sedans right now.

suydam · January 2011

17/25 is not my idea of great. the Altima is more in the 30s which is what I'm looking for. And RWD -- no thanks! I live in snow country.

Sounds like the poster is looking for something Camry like -- which would be soft ride, good gas mileage, and FWD. It may not be your cup of tea but for a large majority that would fit the bill nicely. I think most of the cars people have suggested would be fine.

cincyhoya · January 2011

I drive a 2011 Sonata SE with a 2 year old and 7 month old - at 6'5", I can drive comfortably with a kid behind me which was rare when shopping in this class. Obviously, I'm biased to my choice, but paddle shifters, leather trim, firmer suspension (probably not your sister's choice) and 18" wheels (again, not what you're looking for, but you'll see my point) and experienced 30mpg for $22k was too good to pass up. I'd suspect she'd like the Limited model for around $25k or a nicely trimmed GLS for $21k. Both have softer suspensions and higher profile tire and offer a lot for the $$ (bluetooth, Ipod integration).

That said, my favorite other car in test drives was the Fusion. I came thisclose to a Sport, but in the end couldn't justify the extra $5-$6k (the 4 cyl. felt under-powered to me - the V6 was outstanding). Depending on how dead set on new vs. used she is, she could pick up a Fusion for a steal and it's a really comfortable and enjoyable ride.

plekto · January 2011

5mpg difference is not much. A few hundred dollars more in gas per year. But not having to deal with a slushy transmission, mediocre bland interior, handling that rivals a Buick, and styling that screams "rental car" isn't my idea of something worth spending $20K on, new or used.

I suspect that the vast majority of readers here would agree. The Camry and most of these entry-level mid-size sedans are what you *settle* for when you have no other reasonable choice and just need a car(tm) to get from point A to B.

Considering it has the same engine as a CTS in it, that's worth a few mpg in my book. For the price of a basic 4 cylinder Camry? Yeah, I can sacrifice a few mpg. :P

backy · January 2011

I suspect that the vast majority of readers here would agree.

5 mpg is significant in these days of ever-rising gas prices. Most current mid-sized sedans have smooth-shifting 6-speed ATs with manual control--some even have 6-speed sticks. Some have nicely executed, interesting interiors. "Handling that rivals a Buick" is no longer a bad thing, with the Regal representing this class for Buick. As for styling that screams "rental car", nothing screams "rental car" more than a Pontiac... back when Pontiac existed as a brand. It wasn't good enough to survive, though.

If all you need is a car to get from point A to point B, there's lots of cheap G6s and Grand Prixes out there to do that job. If you want something more, there's lots of great choices in the current crop of mid-sized sedans.

plekto · January 2011

So go online and get some replacement/original Holden badges from Australia. In the looks department, the G8 stands out as much as a Mustang or a Camaro - it's immediately clear that whatever just passed you was not a cheap rental car and likely had a big V8 in it. (the V8 version sacrifices 1-2mpg but sounds so nice)

I just can't stomach the idea of driving such a bland jellybean. Note - the Accord V6 would be fine, but front wheel drive is a sin in something that large. If you had $20K to spend on a new or used 4 door car that could fit 4 or 5 people, what would you choose? Life's just too short to drive mediocrity.

mickeyrom · January 2011

Maybe it's just me,but once I got all "growed" up,all I want a car to do is to transport me in relative comfort and safety.It also helps if it is efficient in gas consumption.Of course,that just my POV.

acdii · January 2011

I used to think that too, until I drove a Prius and Camry for 2 years. After putting 60k boring miles in those mushy row boats, I got rid of them and got a Fusion Sport, Huge improvement in handling and performance, now my 86 mile daily drive is a lot more fun. It still gets decent MPG, but its a much nicer looking car, has enough room for us, and will be a very reliable car. Now if I can just find some decent tires for it that don't cost a fortune.

backy · January 2011

If you can't stomach the idea of driving a mid-sized family car, and must have a V8 muscle car like the G8... why waste your time in this discussion on mid-sized family cars?

I don't consider cars like the 2011 Sonata, Optima, and Mazda6 to be mediocre, considering their price point. But then, I don't need to dash around in a V8 full-sized sedan when an I4 mid-sized sedan that gets mid-30s MPG on the highway and is plenty roomy and feature-laden for my needs (not to mention good-looking) is available for around $20k.

Enjoy the G8. Not my cup of tea... and not a mid-sized family sedan.

dash5 · January 2011

Heh this is like asking the PC geek what kind of computer to get. Top of the line graphics card a mountain of ram and super fast hard drive when all you're doing is email, facebook and looking at pictures of the kids on your 15 inch monitor.

Kirstie_H · January 2011

A reporter is interested in talking with recent car-buyers and car-shoppers who strongly considered the impact of rising gasoline prices when making a purchase decision.
Please email your daytime contact information to pr@edmunds.com by Friday, January 7, 2010 to be interviewed.

Kirstie_H · January 2011

A reporter would like to talk with someone who had owned or shopped a Toyota in the past but now drives a Ford or a Hyundai. Please email your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com by Friday, January 7, 2011.

mtnman1 · January 2011

After putting 60k boring miles in those mushy row boats
I agree totally on the Boring description of the Prius. I will give up gas mileage any day for a pleasurable ride and something with a little oomph under the hood. I Unfortunetly believe that our current government is going to take away our choices by imposing more and more ridiculous mandates on Mpg for vehicles. Eventually we will have to take two tiny electric cars on a trip to carry our family and the luggage.

Now if I can just find some decent tires for it that don't cost a fortune.
I hear you on the tires. I have a 2009 Fusion SEL V6 and when I got a screw in the sidewall of one of my Michelins the best price I could find in Columbus, Ohio was $263. Don't want to spend a grand when it comes time to replace all four. Great handling tires, but not so good in snow. This is one of the best car buying decisions I have ever made.

plekto · January 2011

Concerning MPG, the average for a G8(or similar higher-performance midsize sedan) with a V6 is roughly 20mpg. For a Camry, it's 23MPG(fuel economy.gov)

If you drive the U.S. Average of 12,000 miles a year, that's 600 gallons of fuel VS. 522. 78 gallons of fuel a year (X3.50 = $273), which is $22.75 a month more in fuel, even at today's crazy prices. It's a complete non-issue when you're talking about a 20-25K purchase. For the price of a couple of lunches each month, I'd rather own a midsize sedan that actually is fun to drive. I'd rather get slower internet or a couple less TV channels since I spend so much of my day sitting in my vehicle. (I know people who spend $20 a week on coffee...)

Of course, if I put 50K a year on a car, I'd want a 40mpg+ car. But for most people, fuel economy is not a huge problem.(doubly so if you save an enormous amount up front by buying a 1-3 year old car vs new)

stickguy · January 2011

some of us don't want to drive a car that big (to me, a barge). Some like Andre and Lemko might consider it a compact, but to me it is a limo!

plekto · January 2011

Not everything GM (or Ford) makes is a boat.

Though, to be honest, I'd take a Mustang over a Camry any day. 99% of the time I only have two people in the car at most, so why not get a fun car to drive? (yeah it's not a "sedan" - but that's mostly a styling decision versus it being a true coupe)

And the kicker is that the 2011 model has a new engine in it that gets 19/31 mpg. It actually gets better fuel efficiency than a V6 Camry. Lief's just too short to drive what every other cubicle worker and accountant drives.

thegraduate · January 2011

If every other worker drives one then they must not be too bad; they're certainly not selling based on low price ($21k-$33k), so the "Well McDonald's sells the most burgers so they must be best - no they aren't they're just the cheapest" argument really doesn't work. They must be inherently good for what a large majority of the buying public look for in a vehicle.

plekto · January 2011

Truly, McDonald's burgers are rubbish and always have been. No matter how you dress it up, mediocrity will always be exactly that at the end of the day. And, to be honest, why drive a potato-mobile?

I sometimes wonder what happened to the love for vehicles that the U.S. used to have in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. It's now become acceptable to drive the equivalent of a laundromat washing machine. I makes me wonder where the meat eaters in our society went.

If you want to drive a McCar, well, I suppose you're also the type that settles for McFood.

Me? I want some excitement and even if it's only a little bit of the time, the feeling that I'm driving something a little different. Now, to be sure, most of these bland sedans are decently reliable and acceptable options. But you seriously can't tell me that a Camry isn't about the most soulless thing inside that's on the market. Even Buick makes a nicer interior, and that's more than telling. It's downright sad.

http://www.subaru.com/content/static/fightmediocrity/photos.html
Seriously. That interior is virtually identical to most everything Toyota makes. It would be almost comical if it weren't true.

jimbres · January 2011

I sometimes wonder what happened to the love for vehicles that the U.S. used to have in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. It's now become acceptable to drive the equivalent of a laundromat washing machine. I makes me wonder where the meat eaters in our society went.

Let's not get carried away, sport. Some of those cars (particularly those from the 50s & 60s - not so much anything from the 70s, unless you're a big fan of portholes & landau tops) were great to look at. But if you could spend a day driving any of them, you'd walk away shaking your head & cursing your failing memory.

With their bias-ply tires, drum brakes, loosey goosey recirculating ball steering & primitive (by current standards) suspension setups, they would be a handful on today's roads - & that's putting it charitably. You'd have to go pretty high up in the food chain - to something like a Chevy SS396 - to find something that could keep up with a new Accord V-6. Even then, the Accord would out corner & out brake the old timer while getting better gas mileage.

I'm an old guy - old enough to have driven a few of those cars - & I'd love to have a '67 Pontiac GTO in my garage. But unless I could bring it up to 21st century specs, with 4-wheel ABS disc brakes, stability control, variable-assist rack & pinion steering & a few other things - none of which was even an engineer's pipe dream back then - I probably wouldn't drive it very much.

Once you've gotten past the great styling of the 50s & 60s (let's agree to forget about the 70s), you realize that getting nostalgic about those cars makes as much sense as pining for your Dad's 15" Philco black & white set. At the end of the day, what you really want is your 50" high-def LCD.

Nostalgia is fun, but technology rules.

m6user · January 2011

People that frequent this forum, "midsized-sized sedan", specifically the cars that used to be pictured to the right(can't see them anymore with my browser) do so to learn and talk about those cars. You, on the other hand, appear to have no reason to visit here other than to denigrate these cars and by insinuation the people that are interested in them. You seem to pop in only to try to persuade anyone looking for info on buying one of these cars to buy something that they are clearly not interested in.

I think there are probably multitudes of meat eaters that drive these cars even by your probable definition of a meat eater. If you define yourself or anyone else by the type of vehicle they drive then you have more problems than trying to find a good used G8.

tlong · January 2011

...good used G8

The problem is that the G8 (in the U.S.) is a good car supported by a bad company for a short time. It's a rarity here and going to be a pain in the long term.

You don't just buy the car, you buy the ecosystem that keeps it in parts and service over the years you own it.

plekto · January 2011

I've owned some of those older classic cars, and while it's true that most are rubbish, some are excellent vehicles to drive. But almost all of them were identifiable from a distance and had a unique style of their own.

As for people who frequent this forum, it's "midsize sedan" and the board only allows for a certain limit on types listed(8 IIRC?), but it's really about any and all vehicles that fit this category(price or sportiness non-withstanding, though it's kind of implied that 20-25K is the max). If they come here asking about a midsize sedan and we start to also recommend vehicles that aren't the "vanilla bunch", I don't see a problem with that. In many cases, they can have a car that's at least as decent as any of the others but that doesn't scream "I bought this because I have a family and have no choice."

Cars like a G35, or a TL (and similar) should also be included if they are open to the idea of a couple year old CPO vehicle. 20-25K buys a lot of used vehicle. Why buy a basic rental fleet box when you can get the same manufacturer's better offering for the same price used? Or if they have to have a new car, something like the new Ford, GM, or even Hyundai's offerings that are at least trying to make it look and feel better than a toaster.

backy · January 2011

Maybe there needs to be "New or Used?" discussion. Maybe there already is...

Kirstie_H · January 2011

One like Buying New vs. Used Vehicles?

Of course there's not a general topic like that that's specific to Sedans, but it might be useful. I hate to get a used vehicle comparo topic with a lot of specific models in the discussion title, but there could always be one, like this, that covers anything in the category.

thepieguy · January 2011

I test drove a pre-owned TL and G35 among many others. Great cars. I chose the 2011 Fusion Sport because considering all the factors and features I wanted, I felt it was the better value now and for the many years I intend to own it. My friend you are beating an extremely dead horse with the new vs. used stuff, it really comes down to personal opinion and preference. Luxury sedans are not in the same category as midsize family sedans and there are plenty of reasons why many midsize family sedan shoppers may not want to own one.

jimbres · January 2011

My friend you are beating an extremely dead horse with the new vs. used stuff

I'm inclined to agree. The Fusion is a terrific car. Even the cheapest 4-cylinder version comes with 4-wheel disc ABS & traction/stability control - features that were available only in luxury cars just a few years ago - if they were available at all.

It's not clear to me what you gain by buying a used luxury car - unless you really wanted a luxury car in the 1st place but couldn't afford a new one.

As far as I'm concerned, these are the good old days.

m6user · January 2011

I'm running IE8 and all I see to the right on this page is the list of midsize cars in this discussion but instead of pics I just see boxes with a big grey "N/A" inside. Also see this N/A under each "Average Consumer Rating" and all the ratings show 0 reviews. Is this what everyone else is seeing or do I need to change my settings or something?

imidazol97 · January 2011

I have 5 boxes above a large, long box that says Learn More, Do more. That box is filled with N/A and smaller boxes with N/A.

tallman1 · January 2011

That's what everyone else sees.

m6user · January 2011

I don't know if you know it or not but there are literally thousands, if not not hundreds of thousands, of people that actually aspire to own a new midsize cars that you are so quick to call crap or appliances. They actually buy these cars and feel that they've made it. For you to come on here and say that they are driving "rental fleet box" or "toasters" or "vanilla" or that they aren't a "meateater" like yourself is just plain insulting.

You can talk about used midsized luxury cars all you want(you seem to always want to throw in a SUV/CUV or two while you're at it) as it's a free country and forum but I for one would appreciate it if you would do so in an intelligent manner. Constantly denigrating the cars that we usually discuss here as well as the people that buy them is pretty lame IMO. A lot of people dream about being able to buy a brand new midsize car for $18k. For you to constantly tell them it is stupid and they are buying an ugly, underpowered appliance is ugly in itself. Time to get off the high horse and walk with the common folk.

I drive an Infiniti (in addition to a Mazda6) which may fall into your "meateater" category but hopefully my entire personal identity doesn't hinge on it.

tlong · January 2011

I'm running IE8 and all I see to the right on this page is the list of midsize cars in this discussion but instead of pics I just see boxes with a big grey "N/A" inside. Also see this N/A under each "Average Consumer Rating" and all the ratings show 0 reviews. Is this what everyone else is seeing or do I need to change my settings or something?

I guess when the emotorcons came out of hiding, the sedan pictures decided it was their turn to hide instead. :P

plekto · January 2011

Nobody feels like they've "made it" if they buy a Camry. They bought their car like they buy a washing machine. They looked in Consumer Reports and the other magazines (or online) and bought what they thought would be the most reliable appliance to get from point A to B.

The interior of a Camry is shockingly sparse and made to be tough and survive rental car use. It's got a big engine but not much else. It screams "vanilla" from every angle. And the others seem to be trying to copy it, which is sad. The Fusion, (as an example) is the same price and offers a better driving experience. Better looks and better interior as well. Not by much, but why not consider "vanilla with chocolate pieces" :P if it's offered?

urnews · January 2011

I am running Firefox and that is what I see too. Maybe the site is still under construction.

backy · January 2011

Yep, the Camry is just plain awful. Must be why Motor Trend named it COTY when it debuted. I would have thought they would have given that award to a Pontiac or a Chevy.

Don't you realize that not everyone on the planet thinks like you do? Some people really like the kind of smooth, quiet ride the Camry provides. Perhaps the smoothest ride in the class. I don't particularly like the Camry, but I respect it for what it is and what it does well. And if someone thinks it's the best car for them, and that they've "made it" if they buy a Camry (which can go well over $30k, btw), great. Different strokes for different folks.

Also, in this class, "vanilla" sells. (Actually, vanilla sells in other classes too, e.g. ice cream.) Cars with more daring styling e.g. Sonata are selling well too, but I have to wonder how that more avant-garde styling will hold up over time.

Kirstie_H · January 2011

It's a known issue... hopefully they'll return soon. It's not you. It's us.

Kirstie_H · January 2011

Well, I really view those comments as insulting. While your situation may be different, there are plenty of people who might be young, have experienced hard times, or have never owned a vehicle that could be described as anything other than a beater.

I can tell you that back when I was driving a $300 Chevette, I certainly would have felt as though I'd "made it" if I could have had a new Camry, Accord, etc. A young couple who are friends of ours just bought a slightly used Maxima - they both have good jobs and own a house, but they're just starting out their "adult" life, when they get to save for stuff and choose what to purchase. Neither came from families with any real money, and they probably have the nicest vehicle of any of their relatives. They have every right to feel as though they've "made it."

This is a midsize sedans discussion, which includes the regular, mass-market midsize sedans that you've chosen to denigrate. If you don't like most of them and just want to put them down for being what they're intended to be, then this is probably not the right discussion for you. There are many others that include higher-end vehicles.

plekto · January 2011

I have no issue with people. It's that I wonder about the "wisdom" of people on this forum always recommending the most utilitarian choice when there are now literally a dozen vehicles in the same category. People come here to ask about mid-size sedans and to be honest, there ARE better cars for the money that the Camry/Accord/etc if you want a sportier ride. Or a more luxurious one. Or a better looking one. If you want basic, that's fine, but while Toyota has been churning out the same stuff for nearly a decade now, the others have more than caught up with them.

In short, there are half a dozen similar cars now that need to be added to this thread's list.

Kirstie_H · January 2011

As I've mentioned previously, we are limited to nine in the header. We selected based on those most commonly inquired about and discussed. If that changes, we'll change the list.

tlong · January 2011

It's a known issue... hopefully they'll return soon. It's not you. It's us.

I'll bet once the sedan images come back, the Edmund's logo will disappear! :P

Kirstie_H · January 2011

It's our own little version of "where's Waldo," except here we want you to find what's missing today, not where it went.

akirby · January 2011

Can you make Pletko disappear?

Kirstie_H · January 2011

Meanie! I choose carefully. This is a kind & gentle dictatorship.

akirby · January 2011

It was worth a shot......

daneel · January 2011

How to silence Plekto? Do not respond to any of his self-righteous, selfish rants.
Why would anybody be trying to impose his/her likings on the participants on this forum? We have two Accords, a V-6 and an I-4, and I really felt that we " have arrived" when we bought these cars. Incidentally, I am the Chair person of a prominent University department and am more than satisfied to drive these highly reliable, comfortable, safe, and enjoyable vehicles. Do I care that they are often called ugly, boring, etc by people like Plekto? Of course not! How can he decide what is ugly or boring or a slush box on my behalf? I am pretty sure that the majority of the many Camry, Mazda6, Ford Fusion, etc owners also feel "good" about their vehicles. Why would'nt they since they used their own resources to purchase the car of their choice?

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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